One EMP burst and the world goes dark

[DainBramaged]

The sky erupts. Cities darken, food spoils and homes fall silent. Civilization collapses.
End-of-the-world novel? A video game? Or could such a scenario loom in America's future?

There is talk of catastrophe ahead, depending on whom you believe, because of the threat of an electromagnetic pulse triggered by either a supersized solar storm or terrorist A-bomb, both capable of disabling the electric grid that powers modern life.

Electromagnetic pulses (EMP) are oversized outbursts of atmospheric electricity. Whether powered by geomagnetic storms or by nuclear blasts, their resultant intense magnetic fields can induce ground currents strong enough to burn out power lines and electrical equipment across state lines.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2010-10-26-emp_N.htm?csp=obnetwork

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[MrScorpio]

1. Escape From L.A.

Except, civilization had already collapsed by that time

[DainBramaged]

2. So they wall off the country?? LOL

Who is the real Snake Pliskin????


:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Ah the USA Today scaring people

they KNOW that ONE A-Bomb will NOT do that.... jesus age...

From a star... what they are thinking off is powerful enough to ionize the atmosphere.... and that COULD be an extinction level event.

There are days...

Oh and A-Bomb... only if you are CLOSE to the explosion...it does dissipate you know. In fact, exponentially.

[DainBramaged]

13. I just posts what they wrote, so I is not responsible for believability

likes I wasn't responsible for November 2nd....





:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Who benefits from scaring people?

And these idiots have to be aware of the Nuke that had an air burst over N.Korea not so long ago.

Methinks this is about Iran.

[DainBramaged]

37. Why do YOU think I moi, me the abrasive DainBramaged is trying to scare people

my shit at home is EMP proof I took care of that a LONG time ago. This primary system is in an EMP shielded case.


SO when the shit hits the fan, I guess I'll be talking to Skinner and Earl and you won't?


http://www.advancemag.com/


Thanks for your input.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Not you

the people who write this uninformed drivel.

Here is a book recommendation... "The Culture of Fear."

http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Fear-Americans-Afraid-Things/dp/0465014909

This is what this is about, not you.

[WingDinger]

52. At least you are not DainBread!

[Greyhound]

4. It would take two. n/t

[piratefish08]

5. every day, a new reason to be afraid.

invigorating.

[piratefish08]

6. delete

double post

[Turbineguy]

7. Sounds like we'd better

vote in some more republicans to save us from the dreaded EMP. Draft Bush or something.

[immoderate]

29. We could build a deflector shield!

Just re-direct the anti-missile funds. :)

--imm

[Turbineguy]

50. OK

but only if it's really, really expensive.

[immoderate]

60. Oh, plenty plenty!

--imm

[Subdivisions]

8. One Second After

http://www.onesecondafter.com/

[kestrel91316]

11. I have that book and enjoyed it immensely, as entertainment.

I don't really think the basic premise is as feasible as doomers say.

[Subdivisions]

19. Interesting that the foreword in that book was written by one Newt Gingrich. n/t

[Flubadubya]

34. Yeah, and interesting that the two videos on that link you gave...

are both clips from Faux Snooze!! :thumbsdown:

[dimbear]

62. Be comforted. Lots of circuits in your brain. An EMP

pulse is bound to fry those too. You won't feel it any more than that egg you fried this morning did.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

15. while interesting...he might get his facts straight before making

statements like this : "This is where the effect of EMP starts to get complex. All electricity travels, of course, at the speed of light."

No...it doesn't.

sP

[Mojorabbit]

30. I enjoyed this book as well. nt

[Posteritatis]

9. Yay, something else to drum up overblown panic over

The fact that they're even suggesting that The Terrorists(tm) even theoretically have the ability to light off a Starfish Prime is too ridiculous for words.

[BeHereNow]

17. So NASA and reputable scientists are just convening and discussing the impact

of EMPs for kicks?

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/04jun_swef/

http://www.nswp.gov/swef/swef_2010.html

Please, read the links before you respond,
otherwise don't.

BHN

[Posteritatis]

25. That has nothing to do with my point

... which is that the article's howling about how a single terrorist bomb could, as stated in the first paragraph, collapse civilization is nothing more than the purest, foulest hysterical fearmongering bullshit. They even awkwardly drag Iran and North Korea into it, as though either could even plan the process necessary to begin planning such a thing, never mind light off three or four 500-kiloton warheads a hundred miles over American soil.

USA Today found an actual existing problem which has happened in a mundane and wholly survivable manner about once a decade for the last several and spun it into that ridiculous web of falsehoods to try to get people to start wetting their pants again, something which you see embarrassingly often in this thread alone.

And yes, I know what space-based EMPs can do, having had as a Canadian first-hand experience with the results on a few occasions (which, I'm assuming, is probably more than you've got on that account). That doesn't mean I have to show any respect to this farce of a news article trying to drag as many paranoid terrorist fantasies as possible into one giant unbelievable stew of anxiety.

[BeHereNow]

27. Point taken-

Your demeaning tone noted.
BHN

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. May I add something to your excellent post

We had a very recent, relatively speaking, air burst.

No, nobody has deemed to go beyond the confirm or deny stage, but N. Korea has a pretty nice air burst. That is RECENTLY.

Nobody lost any power or electrical grid in S. Korea or China as far as we know.

As to the rest, the SCALE the article is talking of a space event is far more massive than what happens once a decade or so... 2012 is going to be fun... in fact, what the author is talking about is the kind of event that is consistent with an extinction level event... aka a burst from deep space. The kind of bursts that are thought to affect each solar system once in the life of the solar system... that be... over 12 billion years.

[Posteritatis]

31. To be fair, an airburst would have to be large and very high up

A 10-20KT explosion at a couple thousand feet - say, a Hiroshima - wouldn't do it. Well, I suppose it would in a local area briefly, but they'd have other things to worry about at the time. ("Dammit, my television isn't working. Also I am on fire.")

When people talk about EMPs in this sense, they're talking about several hundred kilotons or higher at, say, five hundred thousand feet, and actually probably a few of those in a coordinated manner. That's beyond the capabilities of anyone who isn't the US, Russia, and maybe China/Britain/France, and is so inconceivably beyond the capabilities of The Terrorists that the only thing I can do is laugh uproariously at the suggestion in the article that they can even be seriously discussing this sort of thing. The article seems to think that there mere presence of the word "nuclear" would be enough for some small thing a few miles up to preindustrialize the US.

A gamma-ray burst isn't terribly likely either; there aren't many candidates in the neighborhood, the ones that are are "aimed" incorrectly to hit us, and so on. They might have shown up in the distant past, but the sort of conditions that light one of those off are pretty rare. The big solar storm that wrecked the power grid in Quebec and chunks of the Maritimes (for a whopping nine hours) in 1989 is far more likely to be the sort of thing that's happening anytime soon; past that the article mainly struck me as more of the usual "doom! dooooooom!" catastrophism that doesn't accomplish anything other than - as this thread shows - get people worked up over nothing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Exactly and those high burst explosions

also need to take into account half life for EMP wave... which is exponential.

:-)

The article is part of what I like to call THE CULTURE OF FEAR that dominates this country. It's gotten much worst since 9.11 in fact.

It is also directly proportional to where you live. The smaller the town, the more easily scared people are... not kidding.

And yes the Gama Burst is possible, over the lifetime of a system... we got better odds actually of the Super Volcano in a certain National Park going off in our life time than a Gama Ray burst.

:-)

And that is still minuscule. I got better odds of another quake actually.

[BeHereNow]

10. "NAH-NAH-NAH, I can't hear you..." Is the global response.

Rest assured, the wealthy have prepared and will survive.

If our "elected" representatives actually worked for US,
every community would have an independent food source (garden et al)
A neighborhood emergency supply center, (medications and supplies) and
so forth...

They know EMP possibility exists, but not one person in
power is organizing people to survive a melt down of
society, should an EMP turn the world upside down.

But hey, no matter, there is a new Michael Jackson song being released!
Now THAT matters!

:sarcasm:

BHN

[Jamastiene]

12. As if I don't have enough to worry about,

you go and remind me of such a horrendous, nightmarish, hellish thing as EMP?

*whimper*

Does anyone know how much tinfoil or styrofoam or whatever protects computers from EMPs I would literally need to encase my house in to keep it from affecting my computer?

Damn, another thing to be terrified of. I hope this never never never never happens. :(

:scared:

[Posteritatis]

14. Stuff like that's happened fairly often

High altitude nuclear tests on several occasions; on a much more localized level lightning strikes. There was a massive solar storm that fried chunks of Canada's power grid in 1989 - for nine hours - and a followup in 1994 that screwed up phone and cable service but not much else.

We've been fine and will be in the future; the kind of thing the article's yammering about would require multiple high-yield warheads exploding with a certain spacing, and if we're in that sort of situation there's already other warheads heading in directions that would cause more immediate concerns anyway.

The article's hugely overblowing how likely the sort of scenario it describes would be. I'm not worried about it.

[northernlights]

44. I don't know...

Newt Gingrich says it would be really, really, really bad. And it needs to be dealt with before the terr'ists get the H-bomb and an intercontinental ballistic missile and an intercontinental ballistic missile launcher and...

You had me trusting you for a while there, Posteritatis, until I saw you didn't know how to spell terr'ist ;)

[Poll_Blind]

16. Out of all the possible Armageddons, this one is my PREFERRED catastrophe.

Oh man, I would so take this over Yellowstone (for instance)- in a heartbeat.

I may be the only person who read your OP and dreamily muttered "Oh, if only..."

:rofl:

PB

[bluedigger]

18. I was wondering who would charge into the gap left by the demise of the National Enquirer.

I was rooting for my preferred news source, Weekly World News, but I guess USA Today is unwilling to concede the field.:rofl:

I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure any single source of EMP sufficient to make the entire planet go "dark" would be sufficient to bring physical destruction on a scale that would threaten Earth's very existence. In other words, I'm not going to worry about that.:shrug:

[thetonka]

20. Bring it on, I'm ready

Just like Y2K, the people who are not prepared will suffer, those that are prepared will not. More specifically those that refuse to accept the possibility will suffer if it happens, and those that obsess about when it will happen suffer now.

Be prepared for tomorrow, but live your life today.

[BeHereNow]

21. From the NASA web site- June 2010.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2010/04jun_swef/

Solar storms can and HAVE caused enormous damage on earth before.
In a world so dependent on satellites and technology, people should
consider the potential damage that could occur on a global level.

It's no laughing matter actually.

BHN

[DainBramaged]

36. Nah, it is to those who think science is a Reich-wing plot.....

thanks

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Yes they cause damage

no, they don't cause planetary wide damage.

Worst case is really failure of satellites and a regional grid going down.

Nor is this expected to leave the region without power for days or months on end.

As I said, the only thing that could cause planetary wide damage would be a gama burst. that is an extinction level event. Unless you are deep under the water or inside the surface of the planet...

By the way, some biologists do believe that the Cambrian Great Extinction was possibly one of these.

As to bringing the grid down massively... on a real world basis... hackers are more possible.

[sally cat]

23. Not going to live in fear of terrorists, and definitely not gonna live in fear of this.

[BeHereNow]

24. No need to "live in fear" but failure to prepare for any natural potential disaster

is foolish.

I consider the science on solar storms to be fairly solid.
As a Californian, I know a major earthquake is more than probable
in my lifetime.

I think the point is- be prepared.
For what ever.

BHN

[damntexdem]

26. Just one nuclear bomb can ruin your WHOLE day.

Help, this is Jericho calling the outside. Is anyone there?

;-)

[thelordofhell]

32. Next up.........rogue asteroids alien invasions zombie wars

run for your life stupid people

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[BeHereNow]

33. You know DainBramaged, I would have sincerely liked to have had a discussion on your OP.

Funny, after reading Skinner's latest post to us about
the new rules, I took a chance on responding to your topic.

Very quickly, this thread has turned to anything BUT a civil discussion,
more a ridicule fest of the source of the news, USA Today.

Sorry to see not much has changed on DU, despite
the Admin's suggestions to us to create a more
productive positive Internet forum.

If people want to bash information, rather than discuss it, oh well,
clearly that is not possible on DU these days.

Thanks for the topic- I found it to be a very interesting article.

BHN

[DainBramaged]

35. I only post thing I feel are interesting, and I agree with your assessment

There are also a LOT of these people who want to shut down discussion or even get these threads locked. So I simply have been eating popcorn and watching what the outcome will be.


It's unfortunate some here who claim to be better Dems than I am should be making decisions about what can or cannot be posted here.


Thanks.

[BeHereNow]

61. What I don't understand is this:

If you come across a thread on DU that you find ridiculous-
MOVE ON.
Don't ridicule or disrupt the people who want to have a discussion
about the topic!
It's just so damned ego-centric to post on a thread
JUST to ridicule the ideas being discussed.

It's one of the primary reasons I don't come to DU very often any more.
It's very hard to have a thoughtful discussion with friends.

BHN

[Matariki]

39. Funny - after a storm the lights go out in my neighborhood and nothing so dramatic happens.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

42. What would happen if the power did not come back on immediatly?

Like... for months. Two aspects of life to think about: fuel and medication.

Fuel: Gas stations require electricity. Utilities (gas & water & sewage) require fuel or electric to operate as well. The nation would physically grind to a halt and living conditions go down the shitter.

Medication: most people dependant on medication only have a 30 day supply. Occasionally 60-90 day supply. What happens when power is out longer than your prescription refill period? If you're diabetic you die. If you require heavy dosage of antidepressants, the added stress of having no power all day will likely be debilatating. Elderly people on life support, heart medications, dialysis, etc... all will die. People with Aids or people recieving treatment of cancers would likely not make it very far either. Most medications are made in a select few locations in America. Without power or fuel, they cannot be made nor transported.

[Matariki]

49. Our forebears survived without electricity and built fine civilizations.

Furthermore, why would an EMT *keep* the electricity out for months?

There have been outages where I live that have lasted nearly a week - people survived. Sure, it was inconvenient, but not "Cities darken, food spoils and homes fall silent. Civilization collapses".

I have to agree with the folks who are suggesting that the article is yet another example of the media peddling fear.

[Shining Jack]

51. Months?

It could last for years. The problem is big transformers going up in flames.
I googled and copy-pasted parts of a page that popped up among the first results I got from the keywords I used, you can find more reliable sources by doing the same:


"This is a page about some of the things that individuals can do to prepare for an electromagnetic pulse attack. I'm an electronics engineer who has been thinking about the EMP problem for about 3 decades."

...

"Both the E3 component of a nuclear electromagnetic pulse, as well as the DC-like currents induced by a large solar superstorm, are likely to overheat thousands of transformers that are connected to long wires. Although it is the destruction of the very large transformers in the power grid that could keep the power grid from being restored for many years, many smaller transformers, such as those on utility poles, and spread throughout suburban neighborhoods, are at risk of overheating to the point that they cause fires."

Read the rest if you want to, there's a part that describes what the consequences for the population would be and it's pretty grim:

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/emp-protection.html

[Shining Jack]

54. Don't forget food suply...

Well it's related to everything that you mentioned, no gas and electricity so food production and distribution would stop in the affected area(s).Check my post just up of this one for more info. (Post 51)

Edit: I thought that the other post was below this one. :)

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

41. While possible, very unlikely.

MAD ensures that whatever country suckerpunches the US in such a fashion shall be turned into a glowing heap of nuclear slag.

You could physically wipe the US off the face of the planet and there would STILL be enough remote nuclear launch sites and submarines for the US to nuke every country in the world. Pretty good deterrent. Well, not good... but as good you could get.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. The good news is, EMP bursts kill bedbugs.

So, you know, it all evens out.

[Motown_Johnny]

46. if you think that is bad, look into Gamma Ray Bursts

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gamma/milkyway.html

[felix_numinous]

47. There's the galactic alignment in 2012

along with a solar maximum at the same time, so watch out for fear mongering idiots blaming any blackouts on terrorists. It's just the Sun. Just saying.

[cliffordu]

48. All tube electronics work just fine.

[guitar man]

53. I hope I finish my truck in time

If I finish fixing up my old '65 chevy pickup I might just have some wheels that will still run. :D

[Shining Jack]

56. You can always use...

lawnmower motors and build some kind of buggy. :P

[guitar man]

57. Yes indeed

And I've got a couple rebuildable riding mower engines that are old enough that they have breaker point ignitions on them ;)

[DainBramaged]

63. EMP-what the Martians did to disable everything in War of the Worlds

[ibegurpard]

55. the Yellowstone Caldera blows and we probably all die

my point?
what good does it do to worry about stuff like this?

[Cleobulus]

58. A few things wrong with this scenario, first of a bad solar storm can have wide reaching affects...

particularly in overloading power grids, something like the blackout of the Northeast wouldn't be unheard of. Atomic explosions are far more localized, in other words, if you are close enough to it to be adversely affected by the EMP, you are much more likely to be adversely affected by the radiation and blast that accompanies it. The exception would be high atmosphere explosions, which would create a spectacular light show, yet pose no danger to life on the surface, but would disrupt electrical grids over a large area. However, this is strictly temporary, its a pulse, its not persistent, damaged circuits will be repaired, and any devices, vehicles, etc. that are off should be unaffected.

[Ilsa]

59. This is the latest scenario for my friend who is going survivalist.

Bought property out in the country and is ready to establish an aquaponics farm among other things, like buying more ammo.