"Attorney General Holder has indicted the former president for ordering torture."

[originalpckelly]

What do you think would happen if that was to be a real headline? Civil war. Plainly put, civil war. At the very least riots, and almost certainly civil war.

This may be the reason we'll never really see a prosecution of Bush for torture. Obama has not formally pardoned him, but it's kind of understood that torture investigations are just not happening. It's a pardon without the political consequences for Obama.

However, civil war or not, he must prosecute. At risk is America's soul. This nation has done some terrible things, but usually it gets past those things and triumphs over the forces within it that want the terrible things to continue. How do we triumph over the forces that want to torture, if the president that ordered it walks free? You think these people will just fade away? HELL NO! They will come back, and they will do this again, only it will be other "bad people" they torture. You know, the kind that we think shouldn't be tortured right now. Regular criminals, not terrorists. How long until we do it to them? And if it hasn't already happened, when will torture innocent people? Although Bush hasn't admitted to the torture that went on Abu Graib, it seems incredibly strange to me that torture went on there, using some of the reported torture techniques used on the so-called "bad guys". And as I understand it, there were some innocent folks at Abu Graib.

SO, WHAT DO WE DO? Do we force the issue, and risk civil war? Do we leave it alone and move forward, risking America's real morality? (Not the kind the fundies talk about, but the kind that keeps us doing good things in the world.)

If there is anything in this world worth fighting for, it is our deepest moral beliefs. It is NOT a valid position to approve torture. It just isn't. It never will be.

The forces in this nation that believe torture acceptable must be overcome.

The security we hold so dear will be threatened if we don't. One way or the other we're fucked here folks. We might as well go down the path that has a possible good outcome.

Our side must force the issue, we must do it everyday, until Obama's team decides to prosecute.

If you think we can safely go on with an element in our nation that believes in such heinous things as torture, you're a moron.

[Demeter]

1. People Would Pour Into the Public Spaces in Joy

If there was any civil war, it would be only the Pentagon and CIA.

If we have to throw in the current administration to sweeten the pot, for the crime of continuing the torture and the cover up and NOT prosecuting, oh, well! That's one way to bipartisanship and national unity!

[laughingliberal]

2. Rec nt

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. We've got one hell of a tiger by the tail here...

And we're fucked no matter what we do...

But if we choose to fight, to force the issue, then at least we've done the right thing. No matter what happens ...

I agree with your stance completely.

Recommended.


And I just realized that today is Veteran's Day. This post is even more appropriate, once you consider that. Those veterans died so that we could have a moral, free country.

Did they die in vain?

[Angry Dragon]

9. I do not know if "in vain" are the correct words

The last war that we fought for principals instead of money and greed
might have been the war of Independence.

I believe soldiers and the people are lied to to justify wars
to benefit the few.

[Hydra]

22. Sorry, the Revolutionary War was about money and power too

See Shay's Rebellion for more details.

Evil seeds and all that.

[Vincardog]

4. Do we force the issue, and risk civil war? They have been warring on us for years anyway. I will no

longer be afraid of what gutless bullies might do.

[originalpckelly]

7. It's been pot that it slowly starting to boil over.

I have been warning about this for literally years now. The wiretapping thing did it for me. Then I started learning about things like the Bybee memo, and it just became clear that we're not dealing with honest differences here, this is something fundamental and impossible to bargain away, this is about what we believe in.

[crazyjoe]

5. I wouldnt' worry about civil war, the people of this country are way too fat and lazy

to even get a good protest going, let alone start civil war

[originalpckelly]

8. Civil war started by the nutty conservatives that support torture.

They own guns, they're violent.

[NV Whino]

6. Damn, you got my hopes up

[TheKentuckian]

10. Civil War is far from a given. I'm not sure it is even likely unless like was said above

It is the MIC and elements of the military against the population and honorable military personnel.

It could spread like that but but that seems rather messy to be profitable. There's also no going back after that. The illusion is destroyed and ever forward there will be an activated enemy element in the population. They might tend to fancy that but it is resource intensive and much more difficult than a willing and obedient populace giving them money for nothing.

Edit to add that the cost of civil war is lower than the overwhelming risk to prosperity, life and liberty not only for us but generations to follow.

Sometimes the cost of peace is too high. Maybe not for an individual or a few but for a people this is too damn much.
Plus, this will not maintain peace but introduce great entropy while rewarding the most bloody minded and giving them license and freedom to commit further and greater atrocities.
There is no sanity in this path, just a poorly thought out clinging to cold comfort.

[originalpckelly]

11. Alright, what would you do if Obama was arrested by a future administration?

[Newsjock]

12. If he had ordered torture as well, I would support such a move

But this is about what W actually did. And if indicting this war criminal brings Freepers into the streets with their by-gawd guns, then so be it.

[originalpckelly]

13. Sorry, it just seemed to that people suggested it was impossible.

If you don't think it is, just look at history around the world. People don't take kindly to their leaders being put in jail by the opposition.

[TheKentuckian]

16. Depends on what for.

[spanone]

14. people would wonder what took so long

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. I wish you all would stop with these teasers.

[Swamp Rat]

17. Bring it on!!!

[Supersedeas]

18. Remember Eric Holder looked right into camera and called us "a Nation of Cowards"

Good speech.

Now the People's Attorney has been presented with a genuine opportunity to show courage in upholding our laws, will the flamboyant Attorney General do his duty like a soldier or will he cower like a momma's boy when the politically connected tell him to stand down?

[dmosh42]

19. The only thing Holder will prosecute is pot smokers!

[librechik]

20. There would have to be an investigation first. That would make heads explode

doubt we would make it to indictments.

[Uncle Joe]

21. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, originalpckelly.

[alfredo]

23. The world court waited to see if Miloševich would be prosecuted.

When it became clear that he would not be held accountable, they pursued him. Maybe the same will happen with bush and cheney.

[Imagevision]

24. George H.W. Bush would speak To Clinton to speak to Obama, end of story

[Hydra]

25. There wouldn't be a civil war

At least, not one we'd recognize. It would be the people who think torture is evil vs. the people who have gone off the deep end.

The people who have gone off the deep end are dragging us further into hell, so our real question is, "How much more damned do we want to be before we stop?"

[Catshrink]

26. If anyone is charged, it will be a low level officer or enlisted person

The big guys never take the heat. I'd love to see Rummy, Crashcart, Wolfie, Condi, and the rest at The Hague but it ain't gonna happen.

[eallen]

27. Wingnut heads are not mortars, and their explosions signify nothing.

:hippie:

[Subdivisions]

28. I don't give a fuck if that statement sets off a nuclear device. I want his

ass prosecuted!

[Ignis]

29. Too late to Rec, but here's a Kick for visibility.

This issue is larger than any short-term political gain. I'm sure you'll be told otherwise by the self-proclaimed "adults" 'round here, but I think your comments regarding the nation's soul are not hyperbole in the least.

Thanks for this OP. :patriot: