Fortuneteller says ban on business left her broke

[Ghost in the Machine]

Fortuneteller says ban on business left her broke

Associated Press - October 8, 2010 5:25 PM ET

EAST RIDGE, Tenn. (AP) - A federal judge has signed a restraining order that blocks the city of East Ridge from enforcing its ban on fortunetelling.

The restraining order has been issued in a suit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of Candice Wohlfeil (WOOL-fyel), who contends the local ban on her business has forced her to close, violated her free speech rights and left her unable to pay rent.

http://www.wrcbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13293975

Question: Would anyone go to her now, if she didn't even have enough clairvoyance to see this happening to herself? :shrug:

[krispos42]

1. If only there was a regular gambling event with a large prize around.

I bet people that could see into the future could make a lot of money

[Ghost in the Machine]

2. LOL! You got it! Too bad there isn't something like that anywhere

Think of the Mega Millions that could be made!

:hi:

[Ghost in the Machine]

3. 2 Mega Money players share $4 million top prize

2 Mega Money players share $4 million top prize

Associated Press - October 9, 2010 10:04 AM ET

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) - Two tickets matched the four winning numbers plus the Mega Ball number to collect $2 million each in the Mega Money game, the Florida Lottery said Saturday.

The winning tickets were bought in Hollywood and Lake City, lottery officials said.

Four tickets won $2,850.50 each for picking 4 of 4; 65 tickets won $383.50 each for picking 3 of 4 plus the Mega Ball number; 1,016 tickets won $73 each for picking 3 of 4; 1,837 tickets won $28.50 each for picking 2 of 4 plus the Mega Ball; 15,481 won $3.50 each for matching one number plus the Mega Ball; 30,836 tickets won $2.50 each for picking 2 of 4; and 33,819 won a free Quick Pick ticket for matching the Mega Ball.

The numbers drawn Friday night were 1-22-29-39 and the Mega Ball was 22.
http://www.wrcbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13295829

[PoliticAverse]

4. If only she could have seen this coming... n/t

[Xipe Totec]

6. I knew somebody would post this

You owe me for my clairvoyant services.

[PoliticAverse]

8. Not if you live in East Ridge, TN. n/t

[SDuderstadt]

5. Basic rule of thumb...

if you call a psychic and you get an answering machine, hang up immediately!

I almost had a psychic girlfriend once, but she dumped me before we met.

[hfojvt]

7. the ACLU?

I have been tempted to donate to them. Except my crystal ball told me that spending my money to defend the right of charlatans to scam their rubes would not be a good investment.

Next they need to represent a street thug who complains that the ban on purse snatching has left him unable to pay rent. Nobody should be forced to make an honest living in this country. This is America dammit! The land of Barnum and Bailey.

[Just One Woman]

9. I think the ACLU is right and I support them

The aclu is about the only organization that has the power and money to stand up for our right to free speech, and they do. Free speech is standing next to the neighbor you disagree with and fighting for his right to be different. Keep in mind, if the aclu loses this case, then glen beck loses too. He is doing the same thing. So the aclu really has a win or win case. But I agree that the fortune teller should be able to make money if the fool is willing to buy it. She is not telling people to use their second amendment rights to resolve an election like Sarah Palin. She has been selling this product, for lack of a better term, for some time at an indoor flea market. This is happening in my town. East Ridge is a burb of Chattanooga. There is a huge back story to the East Ridge City Commission. They haven't kept their side of the street clean. When people started paying attention, they started picking at everything. Now the pressure is on from the teabaggers to bring on their authoritarian government of christianity. I think if you believe in freedom of speech, you should support the fight as well. But do the homework and see if you don't agree.

[KansasVoter]

17. I agree 1000%.....

Short sighted people do not understand the big picture on issues like this!

[Just One Woman]

20. yes

And thank you. But I feel it is our duty to lengthen their vision. Many do not understand Free speech and Privacy. We started losing these "rights" when many of them were young.

[KansasVoter]

26. I agree! The ACLU is needed now more than ever with the 9/11 fear!....

When taping cops is against the law we have a problem!

[rustydog]

45. Hear hear! I am a proud Card-Carrying ACLU member!

I may not like some of their clientele (Rush Limpballs, for example) but I fully support their mission...Preservation of our constitutional rights.

[MattBaggins]

47. Free speech is not scamming people out of their money

[SidDithers]

10. Is hucksterism a legitimate business?...

Why is the ACLU defending a swindler?

Sid

[slackmaster]

12. Freedom of speech and of assoication.

Hucksters provide the service of entertainment in exchange for fees.

[SidDithers]

22. As long as they're advertised as "for entertainment purposes only"...

if they're claiming to legitimately be able to tell the future, then they should be treated like every other scammer.

Sid

[slackmaster]

11. Fortune-telling bans may have been useful in the past. They are ridiculous in the 21st Century.

We have one in San Diego. It dates back to a time before all of the modern federal food and drug safety laws were in effect. Fortune tellers often sold "patent" medicines and engaged in other nefarious activities. They had a well-earned reputation for taking advantage of vulnerable, gullible people.

The ordinance is still on the books, but it hasn't been enforced in a long time. There are many of them in business now.

§57.10 Fortune Telling, Etc., Advertising — Prohibited

It shall be unlawful for any person or persons to advertise by sign, circular, handbill
or in any newspaper, periodical or magazine, or other publication or publications, or
by any other means, to tell fortunes, to find or restore lost or stolen property, to locate
oil wells, gold or silver or other ore or metal or natural product, to restore lost love or
friendship or affection, to unite or procure lovers, husbands, wives, lost relatives or
friends, for or without pay, by means of occult or psychic powers, facilities or forces,
clairvoyance, psychology, psychometry, spirits, mediumship, seership, prophecy,
astrology, palmistry, necromancy, or other craft, science, cards, talismans, charms,
potions, magnetism or magnetized articles or substances, Oriental mysteries or magic
of any kind or nature, or numerology, or to engage in or carry on any business the
advertisement of which is prohibited in this Section and Subsections.
(Incorp. 1–22–1952 by O–5046 N.S., contained in O–574 N.S. adopted 12–28–1934.)

(It's actually been on the books since long before 1934. That's just a revision date.)

Question: Would anyone go to her now, if she didn't even have enough clairvoyance to see this happening to herself? :shrug:

Same reason people go to astrologers or any other kind of charlatan. A lot of things can be justified as "for entertainment purposes".

Oh, I forgot to include the following section of the Municipal Code, which adds an interesting twist to San Diego's fortune-telling ban, and offers another reason to regard them as (at least federally) unconstitutional. :D

§57.10.1 Same — Exceptions

The provisions of this Section and Subsections shall not be construed to include,
prohibit or interfere with the exercise of any religious or spiritual function of any
priest, minister, rector or an accredited representative of any bona fide church or
religion where such priest, minister, rector or accredited representative holds a
certificate of credit, commission or ordination under the ecclesiastical laws of a
religious corporation incorporated under the laws of any state or territory of the
United States of America, or any voluntary religious association, and who fully
conforms to the rites and practices prescribed by the supreme conference,
convocation, convention, assembly, association or synod of the system or faith with
which they are affiliated. Provided, however, that any church or religious
organization which is organized for the primary purpose of conferring certificates of
commission, credit or ordination for a price and not primarily for the purpose of
teaching and practicing a religious doctrine or belief, shall not be deemed to be a
bona fide church or religious organization.
(Incorp. 1–22–1952 by O–5046 N.S., contained in O–574 N.S. adopted 12–18–1934.)

Taken at face value, the ordinances would seem to allow a Catholic priest to charge a fee to tell you where to drill for oil, but not a palmist.

My bona fide church or religion can beat up YOUR bona fide church or religion.

[Xipe Totec]

39. Fortune-telling beans can fortell the future

"You will blame the dog"

Oh, you said bans?



Nevermind!

[MattBaggins]

48. "They had a well-earned reputation for taking advantage of vulnerable, gullible people."

They still do

Witness that idiot with that "crossing over" or whatever the show on TV was.

Scamming is not free speech. Just like the charlatans on TV with get rich quick schemes that should be banned just as fortune telling.

They should have to hand paper work to every client and inform that fact that will be making shit up and doing bullshit like running quick and dirty background checks and googling them in the backroom to appear "psychic".

[Motown_Johnny]

13. maybe she did see this coming and wanted to assert her first amendment rights

if she wins this (and I think she will) then she can say exactly that. also that she knew ahead of time she would win



See how your little joke backfires? If you try to use her not seeing this happening as proof she isn't clairvoyant then when she wins she can turn it around and use it as proof that she is.



If this is a first amendment issue then she should win easily.

[MattBaggins]

49. "If this is a first amendment issue then she should win easily."

It is not. Scamming people is not a first amendment issue.

[edhopper]

14. People don't have the right to commit fraud.

Maybe she has the right to practice fortune telling shim sham without charge. That would be free speech. But once she charges, she can be regulated.

[slackmaster]

16. How do you feel about astrologers charging fees for services? Chiropractors?

I'm looking for a kernel of hypocrisy in your reply. Please help me out.

;-)

[edhopper]

29. Astrology is superstitious crap

and Chiropractic is pseudoscience bull, disprovable by modern medicine.
Happy?

[slackmaster]

41. Easy for you to say in this forum

But not in this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=245

(BTW, I agree with you but it's still just our opinions. Others may believe differently, including astrologers and chiropractors themselves.)

[Just One Woman]

19. Soooooo

Are you saying Sarah Palin and Anne Coulter can be regulated? They charge hefty sums for their free speech? Free Speech is the "right" to say something. Charging is capital enterprise.

[edhopper]

31. That is an interesting question.

I would say it has more to do with the political nature of Palin and Coulter.
Advertising and other commercial speech is regulated.
And from my point of view, all psychics are con artist, so interfering with criminals isn't a constitutional problem for me.

[Just One Woman]

35. commercial?

That might include the becks, and we know that is not regulated. I am a little more open minded about psychics, but not a fool. Edgar cayce would be one that comes to mind. Whether she is a fake or not matters not. She has a right to sell her product as much as the preacher, farmer's almanac, and horoscope newspaper publications. Just because you don't agree with it does not give you the right to stop it from being a product. What I would like to see regulated is the news by the FCC like they used to do. Call entertainment just that, and call news news. Some time ago if the news told a falsehood, whether intentional or not, they had to do a public retraction.

[edhopper]

37. It's not that I don't agree with what they say.

it's that I think most psychics are involved in criminal fraud and scams.
They do arrest people for selling fraudulent products.

[SidDithers]

23. +1...nt

Sid

[Motown_Johnny]

24. you need to prove it is a fraud.. good luck with that

[slackmaster]

25. Bingo!

I believe you would have to be able to prove that a person who claims to be able to see the future actually knows that he or she can't.

[edhopper]

30. You should acquaint yourself

with the scams most (probably all) "fortune tellers" run.

[MattBaggins]

50. If the thief leaves the mark alone in the room so they can

go run a quick background check on the person to get some info to play off, and does not divulge this fact, and instead plays it off a "psychic", I would call that fraud.

[Cleanelec]

15. Anyone who goes to a fortune teller

Deserves to have their money taken.

[KansasVoter]

18. So true!

[NNN0LHI]

21. I had my palm red once

Took a week to get all the red paint off my hand.

Don

[lame54]

27. My friend walked into a psychic and she asked him "Can I help you?"...

true story

[BlueIris]

28. Nice. Thanks, judge. nt

[edhopper]

32. some reading

that my edify what fortune tellers are really up to.
http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/InPerson/MajorPerson/psychic_scams.htm
http://www.gypsypsychicscams.com/cold-reading.html

[MattBaggins]

51. gypsypsycicscams?

That sites not a bit racist... no not at all.

[rrneck]

33. If she had lost

they might have had to close down every church in town.

[Odin2005]

34. Too fucking bad, charlatans like her deserve to go out of business.

[asdjrocky]

36. Shouldn't she have seen that coming?

I mean really.

[Vinca]

38. If she's smart she'll get out of Tennessee anyway.

It's surprising the wingnuts haven't burned her at the stake as a witch.

[Prometheus Bound]

40. Those sorts of bans could put investment managers out of business.

So, good.

[slackmaster]

42. Especially the clowns who try to sell variable annuities to everyone

:hi:

[Stevenmarc]

43. Not that much of a fortune teller if she can't predict she'd lose her fortune

[hayu_lol]

44. Perhaps it is time to start banning...

Wall Street Stock Brokers on the same grounds.

One little fortune teller does very little damage.

[MattBaggins]

46. Why are my eyes still dry?

That's right I have no sympathy for charlatans who prey upon poor and disadvantaged people.

Pay Day lenders
Kirby/Rainbow vacuum salespeople
Reverse mortgage sellers
Annuity crooks
Fortunetellers

[Douglas Carpenter]

52. I believe that fortune telling probably falls into the category of a spiritual or religious belief

and thus is protected constitutionally protected. Would it be illegal to sell copies of the I Ching or run in newspapers daily horoscopes?

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that during consecration of communion - the holy Eucharist is literally transformed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Would making that claim be illegal? Should Pentecostals speaking in tongues be illegal given that it involves a claim that the Holy Spirit is forming the words?

I'm sure most people who define themselves as "fortune tellers" genuinely believe they are practicing something very real and genuinely spiritual. Outlawing a marginal spiritual belief to me represents a dangerous move toward granting government the power to decide what is an acceptable spiritual or religious belief and what is an unacceptable religious belief. I wouldn't want to grant anyone such power.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

53. It's a delicate one.

I think that, on balance, she's probably right that a blanket ban on "fortune telling" is wrong, but I think that there's a strong case to be made that her adverts ought to be required to carry a disclaimer reading "Warning: cannot actually tell fortunes" or something...

[seabeyond]

54. or people can just be responsible for their stupid? i dont know what you are talking about

just threw that out there.

[Lint Head]

55. I'm selling Bengal Tiger repellant. It's a spike that you hammer into

the ground in your back yard an it keeps Bengal Tigers away. It's only effective in the US, Canada and South America.
If a Bengal Tiger shows up unexpectedly on your property I will give you your money back.

I would have the right to sell this kind of bull hockey and people have the freedom to be dumb enough to by it.

It's not FDA approved.

[Warpy]

56. It wouldn't work in my neighborhood in New Mexico

Some people were transporting a Bengal tiger across the country, stopped here for a night's rest. Some local lads broke into the van and let the kitty out.

The kitty then proceeded to surprise the Taco Bell workers who opened up shop early the next morning. They described him as "large, tame and hungry."

Animal control darted him just for safety's sake, the zoo vets checked him over, and he was returned to the owners, who were fined for the illegal transport arrangements. He didn't have enough room in his cage.

I don't think they ever found the jerks who broke into the van.

[Madam Mossfern]

57. Who is "She"

And what is this about?

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. should the law require that Bibles be labeled "Is not actually the word of God"?

Should Roman Catholic Holy Communion be required by law to announce a disclaimer, "The consecration of the Holy Eucharist does not actually transform the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ"?

Right or wrong, foolish or enlightened, millions of people believe in divination as part of their belief system - just as millions of people believe in a lots of things, both religious and secular which are not strictly speaking rational. I think it would be very dangerous to empower government to be the regulator of peoples beliefs.