Many in the GOP are convinced the reason they were defeated in 2006 and 2008 was because

[Toots]

they were not far enough to the Right, hence the tea Baggers. The GOP is becoming convinced that opinion is correct as more regular GOP figures are swept from office and replaced with extreme Right Tea Baggers. This should be a Golden Opportunity for the Democrats, but it is beginning to appear that many Democrats are buying into that same argument. The Argument that America needs to go further Right. It is time for Democrats to get some air time and dispel that myth..We are almost half way through September now and I have yet to see or hear a single Democratic Ad. What the Hell are they waiting for? Democrats are not acting like Tea Baggers because they are for the most part fairly content. They do not want to "Throw the Bums Out". A lot are disappointed things are not happening fast enough for them but almost all believe we are inching forward in the right direction. We need to somehow convey to the general public just how whacked out the GOP has become. I believe we are looking at a Historic moment in America and we need to somehow get that impression across to all those that could care less about politics, which is about half the nation. The momentum is about to switch I believe and Democrats need to be ready to take advantage of it..If Democrats allow themselves to get walloped in November the Party will never recover. It took them over a Decade to show any real signs of life after 1994. If they go down now the Party won't recover in our lifetime, I'm afraid. Their Powder is dry so it is time to use it up..or else........

[Tippy]

1. K&R....

[deacon]

2. After 2008 they wanted to reinvent themselves. They have, they decided to expand on and embrace

extremism and take it to a new level. Pardon me if I don't weep over this, but what did they expect? How many times can you rally the rednecks to save your asses? How many times can you sell the charade of pushing to wards the prosperous future for all with an agenda that wants to jump back wards and secure the future of the elite few?

[hobbit709]

3. I thought it was because ACORN stole the elections.

I guess this is the new alibi.

[rucky]

10. they didn't, obviously, but they deserve a lot more credit for helping us win.

too bad Andrew Breitbart realized that before Congress did.

[leveymg]

4. This is not good. I haven't seen the GOP base this revved up since '94, maybe not since Reagan.

The Republican Party has melted down into a unified hardcore Right-wing. This is exactly what the vast majority of them are and Palin and the other crazies express what the GOP base believes.

There aren't going to be a lot more defections, and this is not an opportunity for the Democrats to pick up a lot of new "moderate" votes. The moderate Right and corporate centrists already rule the Democratic establishment, with some notable exceptions. The whole country will come apart first, but the TEA people live and die Republican.

[deacon]

7. I don't see that. I think there is proof from last nights results that equate to disarray. n/t

[leveymg]

11. In DC and surrounding burbs, the disarray is ours.

You probably didn't catch the coverage of the insanity at Fenty HQ last night as the numbers came in in the DC mayoral primary. Surreal. There's a grassroots rebellion going on, and the corporatist New Democrats and the technocrats are getting booted. The GOP is also having a populist uprising.

[Recursion]

19. I was sorry to see Fenty go

I liked him. I'm hoping Gray isn't going to take the District back to the pre-Williams days. I remember the 90s in DC.

[leveymg]

25. My wife, who has great political instincts, felt the same way you do.

But, I was aware of the fact that Fenty was viewed in most of the Wards as a White Establishment send-up, and there's been a great deal of unhappiness -- particularly among the poor -- with many of his policies, particularly his approach to education reform, which has been heavy-handed teacher firings by a female Asian School Chancellor. Maybe not a fair perception, because Fenty is a local who worked his way up because he's talented and hard-working, but he had a "tin ear" for symbolic politics and displayed a bit of a "I don't give a shit what you think" attitude toward some of the entrenched local power brokers.

For good or ill, Fenty was a technocrat and a centrist, and the people have spoken. I hope will not go unnoticed by the DNC.

If we're going to win again, Democrats need to return to being grass-roots Champions of the Little guys: union hall guys, minorities, civil rights activists - you know, the Democratic base!

[Recursion]

26. Yup. And 4 (and 8) years ago, people wanted that

a bit of a "I don't give a shit what you think" attitude toward some of the entrenched local power brokers.

And they just exacted their revenge. I know Rhee is unpopular here, but then again people simply don't believe that Barry (and Kelly) literally considered the public schools yet another patronage job program. I have met Gray a few times and I definitely don't think he is that level of corrupt, though I doubt Barry was when he started out, either.

[leveymg]

30. I get the impression that Gray is smart and level-headed, and will be a good Mayor.

I thought the same thing about Fenty, but really doubted his judgment about Rhee.

The DC schools need to add two years of pre-school early childhood education, a vast expansion of Head Start, and a lot of intensive (expensive) after-school enrichment. Lack of resources. That's the biggest problem with the system, not patronage, IMHO. But, that would cost a lot of money that the powers-that-be don't want to spend on public education - in fact, they would just like to do the whole thing on-line, on-the-cheap and just privatize the system, subsidizing the churches.

[vi5]

5. What's funny, is....

..the democrats apparently also believe they are set to lose in November because they are not far right enough.

[Recursion]

20. Except for the Democrats here, who are convinced we are not far left enough

And that going farther and faster than we are now will somehow alienate fewer voters.

This is the exact mirror image of what the tea party thinks, and it's just as dangerous for us as it is turning out to be for the GOP.

[vi5]

31. Except on here......

the views that these supposed radical leftists want the democratic party to enact and espouse match up with what most of the country want. As views on gay rights in general are becoming more mainstream and accepted, the party continues to run from that. As the country wants elected officials to put the rights and needs of the middle and working class first, the party continues to try and split the difference and keeping their corporate donors happy. So comparing the two is a complete farce.

The majority of people on here unappy with the direction of the party aren't looking for some radical form of communism or unfettered freedom to do whatever they hell anyone wants. . Just a party that consistently defends the rights of all Americans and doesn't put corporations needs above all else and doesn't just consistently try to split the difference and throw scraps at people and expect them to be happy.

If people on here as well as the elected leaders of the party itself keep deluding themselves into thinking that it's just a bunch of left wing radicals who are pissed off at the way this party is acting or leading then they'll continue to drive away more and more people.

[Recursion]

33. Yes, the tea partiers think that too

the views that these supposed radical leftists want the democratic party to enact and espouse match up with what most of the country want.

That's what the teahadists think too. And in both cases you and they are almost right: people more or less agree with statements like

"gays and lesbians should be allowed to serve openly in the military"
"taxes should be lower"
"the deficit should be smaller"
"social security benefits should not be reduced"
etc.

But this is not to say they will support candidates who actually carry through on those statements.

[vi5]

36. It's the priority they put on those things though...

..that is the true tell. They think taxes should be lower for everyone except the wealthy (Republicans disagree with this). They may think the deficit should be smaller but it is a low, low priority when stacked up against other issues, more importantly the creation of jobs (Republicans disagree with this).

The first and last thing on the list (gay rights and not cutting social security) are democratic slam dunks (or should be). The GOP is opposed to both of those statements. But what does the democratic party do? Try and burn the candle at both ends.

I'm not someone who says "This is a Center-Left country!!!" I dont' believe that. But I believe that a majority of people support the basic positions of what the democratic party used to stand for. We didn't win in 2006 and 2008 by running conservatively. In a vast majority of the cases we ran using Democratic party boilerplate stuff, basic meat and potatoes, and we won. I'm not saying we won by running a radical leftist campaign. But we won by not running away from the base and not running away from our core values like the vast majority of elected Dems now seem to be doing at every possible turn.

[malaise]

6. They lost because Karl Rove is clueless

if he can't rig it they can't win. Fuck all ReTHUGS - they aren't winning shite.

[leveymg]

8. G-d, I wish I could agree.

But, in the outer suburbs, and other GOP strongholds, they're very motivated and they can smell blood in the water.

Elections are all about GOTV, and ours will be a mere shadow of what it has been in recent elections. The Democratic base have been totally let down, and even though most will vote, they're not showing up to volunteer at Dem campaign HQs in nearly the numbers they did in '06.

[Recursion]

9. A lot of people here seem to think our problems come from not being far enough to the left

The parallel to the tea-party, particularly the obstinate insistence on sticking to ideology despite all evidence to the contrary that voters don't like it, is astounding.

The more we purge the party of everyone who doesn't meet our litmus tests, the more we'll suffer the GOP's fate.

[leveymg]

12. I have news for you. In a discouraged electorate, the ideologues are the voters.

The party that keeps it's base together is going to win in 2010 and 2012. And, the GOP is doing a far better job of it.

[Recursion]

14. That's what the O'Donnell supporters think, too

And both you and they, IMO, are wrong.

[leveymg]

21. It's about the only thing we agree on. And, I hope I am wrong.

But, so far, things are going pretty much as I've said since we lost the VA Governor's election in February 2009. Our candidate was a disaster, who among other things ran to the Right of Obama and against HCR. He got trounced 60/40 - almost a record, and that was just a few months after VA went for Obama by 53-47 (I recall).

Most of the House and Senate races we lose this time will be for the same reason - too far to the Right for party activists to support with any real enthusiasm. Ideology does count in times of crisis, and this is one of them. By running to the Right, the Democratic leadership risks losing power because they've disillusioned the base - I don't understand why they don't seem to understand that, except they do have a justifiable fear of losing big corporate donors if they were to move to far to the Left.

I think the pursuit of Big Donors over all else is the thing that's most damaged the Democratic Party.

[Recursion]

23. What about Owens in NY-23?

A moderate Democrat can win an election when the GOP pushes itself too far to the right, by appealing to the voters who feel like the GOP abandoned them. If the Democrat goes too far to the left, why do we think the voters would follow them? Most voters don't have time to learn that much about issues; a lot of voting decisions are made on gut feelings and sense of trust.

[leveymg]

27. In individual races in conservative districts, moderate Dems have a chance. But, we can't

structure the Party and every piece of legislation to please them. The Democratic Right is a rump, a necessary one, but a rump, and they need to stay in the back-benches rather than be given Committee Chairs and up-down power over important legislation.

[vi5]

32. Thank you so much....

..this really does sum it up as simply and basically as it can be.

Nobody is disputing the "back-benchers" are needed in certain districts. But the fact that the party caters to their every whim and need is what is pissing people off.

[Recursion]

34. "Caters to their every whim"?

What on earth are you talking about? You think Baucus wanted health care reform? Wall street regulation? No, he didn't. But we made a package he could vote for.

Seriously, I think you vastly overestimate how much power Baucus has. Whether he chaired the meetings or not didn't matter because whoever did chair them would have to do enough to get his and Nelson's votes.

[vi5]

38. Why did his vote matter so much?

I'm not saying he shouldn't have had a vote when the Senate voted. But if he's going to fight against the majority of his own party then I'm sorry there should be consequences. If we need his Senate seat to keep a majority, and only a conservative dem can win there, then fine. I dont dispute that. But we don't need to be giving them seats at the table where these big decisions are being made and the legislation is being shapped. How many liberal republicans are on these committees? How often are they given this type of power?

Let him and Lincoln, and Nelso be be one of the many no votes when it comes to the floor. But allowing them to call the shots in crafting the legislation the way they did and seriously shape and alter the legislation in a way that goes against what the majority of the party wants, is what is offensive to so many people.

[leveymg]

40. You forget the 8 months wasted in Gang of 8 negotiations, and how that bogged down the whole process

I blame the upper leadership for that mistake. Baucus was only part of the problem that didn't have to arise if the Senate Bill had been done through Reconciliation from the very beginning, rather than as a last resort.

If the process had been pushed through earlier, before the lobbyists took over the process during endlessly stalled talks, the Blue Dogs would have ended up voting for a much better Bill, earlier.

But, now it's done, and we wait for the results . . . tick . . . tick . . .

[Winterblues]

29. They move to the right because they believe they are covering all bases.

They take Liberals for granted.. They know we would NEVER vote Republican. They did not understand about the volunteer labor in GOTV they might lose though.There is no way those Big Corporations will be knocking on doors for them or giving people rides to the polling booths. If we had vote by mail I do believe Democrats would not have a worry in the world. Even a disillusioned Democrat will vote if they don't have to leave their home..If there is no extra effort involved even the most lazy and or the most unconcerned would probably find the time to mark their ballot and let the Postman pick it up..There would be no need for any GOTV effort and much time and money would be saved to be put into message..Democrats need to wake up about this issue before it is too late.. Let Oregon be the example for all..I would bet even with the supposed greater zeal of the Republicans, Democrats will still triumph in Oregon, and turnout will be one of the highest in the Nation..

[pocoloco]

13. If the buses aren't moved our problems are just beginning!

[Marr]

16. Huh? The purging has been from the right-of-center party establishment, which

goes out of it's way to insult and shrug off the left.

[Recursion]

18. What "purging"?

The Democratic party hasn't (yet) done many of those purges. We actually did purge Lieberman. We tried with Lincoln. If we pull this crap on Nelson or Baucus we wind up handing seats to the Republican party.

And, yes, a conservative who caucuses with us in the Senate is better than a conservative who doesn't caucus with us.

[leveymg]

22. Baucus did more damage to the Dem Party than any Republican since Reagan

Just like George W. Bush was the best thing for the Democrats since Nixon.

If Reid, Obama and the other leadership had chosen a different route to HCR, one that bypassed the Blue Dog Committee Chairs, a Public Option probably would have made it into HCR, and we all would be feeling much better about knocking doors for Democratic campaigns again.

But, that wasn't the road chosen.

[Recursion]

24. I don't want to rehash the HCR fight

Though I still don't see why "public option" is so much better than the "non-profit option" states are required to provide (or will be, in 4 years).

But, yes, you're making exactly the argument about our party that the Tea Partiers are about the GOP. If your comfort knocking on doors is worth losing Baucus's senate seat, then by all means support a liberal primary challenger against him in 2014.

[leveymg]

37. Okay, I'm a bit war weary and battered by that fight, as well.

But, since you bring it up, BC/BS is a "non-profit" which is different from a cost-contained, publicly administered agency.

Personally, I am uncomfortable knocking doors for candidates and causes I don't believe in. I understood in 2006 and 2008 that the guys we were sending to Congress and the White House were not a perfect reflection of myself, and that progressives would be somewhat disappointed by the policies. I did not expect Single Payer, nationalization of the big NY banks, an immediate withdrawal of all US Forces from Iraq and Afghanistan, a big expansion of social safety net like the Great Society, etc.

But, what I did not expect was that the most crucial symbolic votes and issues would be handed to Max Baucus and Joe Lieberman, and that we would end up with so much continuity of existing policy and so little real reform. I can go into the details about that at length, but I think you understand what I'm getting at.

And, I think we could have done it without the wholesale loss of Democratic seats in the Senate, if there had been a sterner, firmer hand from above driving real reform. But, that's not what we got, so we'll end up paying for that failure to seize the opportunity to remake Washington in another way, starting next January.

[asjr]

15. I hope politicians like Lieberman, Nelson

and blue dogs wake up. Lieberman and Nelson have been stirring up everyone for some time now. I think they just like spreading their Peacock feathers and basking in their contrariness. Neither has any sense of protocol or love of country--just love of themselves. We do not need those kind.

[Recursion]

17. But Nelson is the Castle of our party

If a primary challenger much farther left than him wins, a Republican goes to the Senate.

Why is DU dead-set against learning that lesson from the tea party?

[MineralMan]

28. Oddly enough, many here on DU seem to think the Democratic

Party needs to shift a long way to the left. That trick never works -- for either party. What needs to shift is the center line that runs through the political bell curve. If it shifts to the right, the Democrats benefit. That may be what is happening right now, bringing moderate Republicans onto the Democratic side of that curve. We'll get our first hint about whether that's true in November.

Now, I'm going to :hide:

[Recursion]

35. +1000 NT

[MineralMan]

39. See my OP on the political bell curve

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9137887