Birth Rape

[apples and oranges]

What is "birth rape?"

If debates about childbirth weren't already incendiary enough, here's a phrase that's being debated online lately: "birth rape." It refers not to forced sexual contact, but to violations experienced during childbearing.

The phrase has been circulating on midwife and childbirth blogs for several years, but is starting to gain force. Here's how a blog devoted to the topic, Birth Trauma Truths, describes it:

"A vulnerable woman, who is powerless to leave the situation, is at times held down against her will, has strangers looking & touching at private parts of her body, perhaps without appropriate measures being taken to acknowledge her ownership of her body or to preserve her comfort levels. Perhaps she has fingers or instruments inserted without her consent, and sometimes against her consent, invading and crossing decent boundaries. She is fearful of what is happening to her and perhaps for the wellbeing of her baby, and receives no reassurance that either she or her child are ok. That is a violation, no matter how you look at it. Even IF this treatment is given with no malice and the intent of attempting to assist her with birthing her child, there is NEVER a reason to forgo common decencies that will enable her to maintain a role in the birth, some autonomy over her body, to be involved in the decision-making, to be informed about what they want to do BEFORE they do it."

Read more: http://jezebel.com/5632689/what-is-birth-rape?

Interesting. I had never heard of this concept before.

[sinkingfeeling]

1. One word: Nonsense

[uncommon]

3. It it absolutely NOT nonsense. Medical professionals can be very abusive to laboring

women. It happens all the time. Procedures that are non-emergent are performed without patient consent, doctors and nurses are rough and uncaring, and women suffer for it.

[EOTE]

10. Medical professionals can be very abusive to many patients.

And that's awful. They can be abusive to patients of all genders, races and conditions. That could be considered malpractice or even assault. But it's certainly not rape. I'm guessing you wouldn't react very kindly if men who had very rough prostate exams started claiming they've been raped.

[uncommon]

12. Actually, I would.

You seem to have no idea what some laboring women go through in hospitals. I've been there - I know how I was treated and it was deplorable.

[EOTE]

21. Then you are diminishing the impact of the word.

I've had a doctor's office experience that was one of the worst things I've ever gone through. I felt helpless and endured an incredible amount of pain when I didn't want it to happen and didn't think it would help my issue. I would never consider it anything approaching rape. So you can go ahead and apply the term to anything awful and painful that one has to go through and watch it eventually have no impact whatsoever.

[pipi_k]

36. It may not be "rape" in the usual sense of the word, but...

the sense of shame and violation are the same.

I don't know how the birthing experience is these days because my children were born in the early 70s, but I clearly remember what happened back then.

You really have no idea of what those experiences were like.

[EOTE]

41. So where does one draw the line?

Are prostate exams that leave one feeling shamed and violated considered rape? Do we start throwing around the term for any act which leaves the victim feeling shamed? Really? Where does one draw the line? Do you not have a problem with this?

[pipi_k]

128. Actually, I never said that the process of birthing

was rape, just that the feelings associated with it can be the same.

If a man feels violated while getting a prostate exam, then he feels violated, and I would never suggest that he doesn't. Or that he shouldn't.


People have different tolerance levels for that sort of thing...

[Crunchy Frog]

129. If it's done against the will of the patient, then I would call it rape.

[CTyankee]

132. My husband complains every time he has his routine prostate exam. HE considers it

a violation of his body, altho he understands its need.

Invasions of body cavities must be done with extreme care and gentleness. You're not getting a flu shot.

Labor is painful and made more painful by a pelvic exam during a contraction.

[pipi_k]

234. Pelvic during a contraction AND....

the "friendly enema" during contractions.

That's what happened to me during birth #2.


Hold in ten gallons of water as long as one can while going through contractions every 4 or 5 minutes. Then run as fast as possible to the bathroom (ten feet away but it felt like ten miles) wearing paper slippers and a hospital johnny gaping open in the back...which actually, under the circumstances, was sort of a good idea.

No time to bother with the niceties like shutting the bathroom door, either...

just....plooooooooosh!!!!


Childbirth...it's definitely not for sissies...

;)

[CTyankee]

235. had the enema with first 2. They "forgot" on the last one.

Are they still doing the enema? My dtr never had one with her kids.

If you want real fun, try a barium enema. It was so vile and painful I swore never again. I'd go thru 10 colonoscopies before I'd ever do that again...

[seabeyond]

20. in all my years, i hve never heard one woman claim an abusive feeling from doctor in delivery

could there be abusive or not good doctors? sure. btu beyond that, not seeing it.

having a baby is intrusive in and of itself.

[uncommon]

26. Well you have now --

when I was pregnant, I saw a nurse practitioner at the office where I went for prenatal care. She was great. Unfortunately on the day I was induced (I was young and didn't know any better), she wasn't available and the very unpleasant and rude male doctor from the practice attended me at the hospital.

He was extremely rough, he broke my water without consent which was very painful, and then he promptly left without a word for his vacation.

My baby was delivered by a very kind male doctor who I had never met but who was gentle and immediately set me at ease when he entered the room.

It matters whether a doctor is "good" or "bad" and some of the bad ones really should not be in medicine at all.

[seabeyond]

31. ok to all of that and i am sorry about your experience. but not rape.

i was luky that i had a doctor that i was with from the beginning and was able to build a trusting relationship. i had him for both kids and he remembered me. my first was induced, and ya... painful. and still, i trusted him to do his job. he did. had to use salad forks to pull the baby out, that was scary, but when i said something, his comment.

this is my job.

such confidence, i let go of the worry.

another may think it uncaring. i found it comforting he was confident.

but not rape

[Maru Kitteh]

220. I woke up in a teaching hospital with a crowd of students around my bed and a doctors fingers

in my vagina. I had been in labor for over 30 hours. I screamed at all of them to get the fuck out of my room which of course immediately labeled me as a "bad" patient. I was 20 years old and 1200 miles from home.

My experience there was pure hell.

[cleanhippie]

87. And you think that is "rape"?

[JuniperLea]

105. That sounds like a very trying experience, no question...

But it's nowhere near rape. Not even close.

[etherealtruth]

126. That is a terrible experience at the hands of an uncaring medical ....

... professional. It was deplorable.

It also, is not rape.

[lolly]

137. Make that twice

I would definitely consider what happened with my first baby abusive.

[lolly]

138. Delete

[undeterred]

123. A friend of mine had a doctor stitch up her episiotomy

too tight (his idea for her husbands pleasure) and he talked dirty to her while he was doing it. What would you call that?

[Dorian Gray]

176. That is sexual assault

He should have been arrested. That is why a nurse must be present.

[sinkingfeeling]

23. Being 'rough and uncaring' or not asking for permission is a far cry from rape. I remember

well the time I spent in a delivery room, where my son was coming faster than they had anticipated. I really can't image giving birth without someone placing something in the birth canal to assist delivery. They didn't have time to do the epidural much less get me to give written consent to touch me.

[JerseygirlCT]

44. With my first

my doctor (I didn't recognize how lousy a doctor she was at the time) kept disappearing during my tough labor. Instead, this resident walked in, and as the OP describes, just started poking and prying - no word to me.

He had hands like sausages, and it was a fair addition to the pain I was already in.

So glad by my second time around I had a wonderful doctor, and labored in a hospital with caring staff who didn't treat me like a slab of meat.

[CreekDog]

70. Isn't the first cause to protect the health and life of the patients?

mother and child?

is there any way to do this without being invasive?

i'm just wondering but when a child is coming out, are the medical people attending expected to stop and make sure that every move they make is approved?

would they be able to actually provide the proper medical assistance?

it would seem that once you consent and get on the table, that *reasonable* and *appropriate* measures would be undertaken, but *not* that you would be asked before each instrument is used or hand is moved.

that's ridiculous.

apply your reasoning to surgery done with local anesthetic --it would be impossible to do by your reasoning.

[seabeyond]

73. honestly, i would be embarrassed if they asked permission before everything they did, instead of

just doing their fuckin job. i had no need to know. or be asked. just get the baby out healthily

i dont want to be "giving permission" for every step.

[Hannah Bell]

212. that's not rape. it's abuse. calling it rape destroys the meaning of the language.

& sexualizes non-sexual things -- apparently because americans are obsessed with sex, it's the only thing they get their panties in a wad about.

[Iris]

58. Just because you say so?

[sinkingfeeling]

63. See post #23

[ZombieHorde]

90. I don't think this is nonsense. nt

[Taverner]

124. I agree with you on the nonsense part

Granted, there may be some OBGYNs who prod unnecessarily, but this is the exception, not the rule

[Better Today]

2. Hence why I informed all three of my OBGYNs that it was my body,

my pregnancy, and they were my employees in these matters. Because I'm so slender and have such a high metabolism, the two who actually were still in my employ when I delivered (the third was an early miscarriage) both threatened to have the pregnancies induced early because they didn't think I gained enough weight. Both times I simply reminded them that they didn't have that option as I wouldn't submit to it.

So I'm wondering how anyone is forced to go through what is described above?

[uncommon]

6. Many women, especially younger women, are not so empowered.

Hospitals are scary, labor is scary, and a woman who has not dealt with this or been educated in how to deal with it is ripe for abusive treatment.

[snooper2]

Oh it goes on all the time...

Women who are about full term are kidnapped, drugged, tied down and given drugs to induce.

Then a different group of strangers comes in the room to deliver the baby, sometimes bringing odd looking tongs and scoops.

:eyes:

[Better Today]

19. I know you're being sarcastic, but I have heard that these days doctors actually

have tried to have parents and pregnant women restrained and interred because the doctors didn't like the decisions the patients or parents were making. Around here a few years ago, a couple had their son taken away and charges brought against them because they wanted a second opinion on a cancer diagnosis for the son. They tried afterward to sue immediately and again later the hospital, doctors, etc, but the courts ruled in favor of the assholes each time. So I was seriously wondering if things had changed that much regarding a second opinion, then was a pregnant women's rights also in jeopardy these days?

[pipi_k]

39. Actually, the one time I refused drugs...

I was 20 and about to deliver my second child.

The doctor asked if I wanted any sort of painkiller or whatever.

I said no, because of a severe phobia of drugs/meds.

anyway, labor was induced, and about an hour later (I'm a fast worker) my daughter was born in a perfect delivery. Except for the episiotomy that I wasn't given numbing agent for, and the subsequent stitching up which I felt, but anyway...

Trouble-free delivery.

So I'm in the recovery room and the nurse is making her rounds of the post natal women, doing BP checks, etc., and she asks me if I had any drugs/meds during delivery. I told her I hadn't...and that's when she looked at me with contempt and said I was "very foolish".

WTF?????

I didn't WANT them.

I didn't NEED them.


Where the hell does someone get the right to tell another person she is "foolish" for not wanting or needing painkilling drugs during a delivery that went just fine...meaning that I was NOT a "trouble" patient for the doctors or nurses. I was a "good little girl" who did as she was told, albeit without their stinking drugs.

So yeah...sometimes people are intimidated into doing things they don't want to do in the hospital.

[ourbluenation]

203. yeah, yeah, yeah...but it isn't rape.

by the way, my assistant told me the other day a story very similar to yours. It's infuriating for sure. She didn't want the pain killers recommended but after having a c-section she ended up asking for them. The nurse said "I told you so" in a super snotty way. Totally unnecessary. Mom said she was so shocked she didn't say anything, but she later filed a complaint.

[pipi_k]

232. I think you'll see upthread...

that I never called it "rape".


The feelings, however, can be the same. Fear, shame, a sense of having been violated, even though it's not sexual in any way.

Years ago my apartment was broken into one night when I was out. I didn't have much, but what I did have was stolen.

I hadn't been raped, but the feelings were much the same. I felt afraid and very very violated.


I don't know if that's a universal reaction to something like that, or whether I'm just super sensitive to it. I also often feel violated if someone hugs me or touches me unexpectedly....


:shrug:

[blueamy66]

251. At that point, you should have given the "nurse" a piece of your

mind.

We must empower ourselves. If we play the victim, we will continue to look like the victim.

No, I have never given birth.....thank goodness....but I think that if I was giving birth, I would be very vocal about my opinion and wouldn't allow some of these horror stories that I am reading to happen.

Maybe I live in a dream world, but....???? I am in labor and someone is treating me like crap? No freaking way.

[Crunchy Frog]

133. Yes that kind of thing does happen.

A woman was arrested at her home, tied to a gurney, and taken to the hospital via ambulance where she was forced to have a c-section against her will. Another woman was literally imprisoned in a hospital room because she didn't want to go on bedrest at 25 weeks, with the stipulation that she must submit to ANYTHING they wanted to do to her. They delivered a dead baby via c-section.

Outrageous things really are done to pregnant and birthing women.

[KakistocracyHater]

200. you have any links to those?

However bad, I notice the op & other women mention they continued to have more kids-why go back to the same hospital? The jezabel article mentions mid-wives, I wonder how much this is advertising/justifying their own profession vs. ob/gyn?

[Crunchy Frog]

205. This link describes both of those cases.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemberton_v._Tallahassee_Memorial_Regional_Center

There are some women choosing homebirths with midwives to avoid these sorts of horrific incidents. Simply mentioning that these things happen isn't about advertising. It's about a very real problem.

[KakistocracyHater]

214. someone downthread DID mention that there is tension btwn mid-wives

& ob/gyns. But your link shows does show the "pro-life" nightmares that happen. These 2 examples are DIRECTLY RELATED TO PRO LIFE 'LAWS'-not terrible ob/gyns, Evangelical/Christian Right ob/gyns.


..."The court held that the rights of the fetus at or near birth outweighed the rights of Pemberton to determine her own medical care. She was physically forced to stop laboring, and taken to the hospital, where a c-section was performed."...

..."Her suit against the hospital was dismissed. The court held that a cesarean section at the end of a full-term pregnancy was here deemed to be medically necessary by doctors to avoid a substantial risk that the fetus would die during delivery due to uterine rupture, a risk of 4-6% according to the hospital's doctors and 2% according to Pemberton's doctors. Furthermore, the court held that a state's interest in preserving the life of an unborn child outweighed the mother's constitutional interest of bodily integrity. The court held that Roe v. Wade was not applicable, because bearing an unwanted child is a greater intrusion on the mother’s constitutional interests than undergoing a cesarean section to deliver a child that the mother affirmatively desires to deliver. The court further distinguished In re A.C. by stating that it left open the possibility that a non-consenting patient's interest would yield to a more compelling countervailing interest in an "extremely rare and truly exceptional case." The court then held this case to be such."...

[Crunchy Frog]

228. It's a culture of doctors thinking they have the right to do anything they want

to women's bodies during childbirth. These are far from the only examples. There have been many cases of women being sectioned against their will simply because a particular doctor or hospital "doesn't do VBAC's". I posted about it in this thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=217x8123

[lapislzi]

18. The usual suspects: the ignorant, probably the poor

People who are ill-informed about their own bodies, their own condition, and their rights.

I strongly doubt that most medical professionals would intentionally violate the dignity of any patient, but when a person is in distress, perhaps doesn't speak the language, the brusque efficiency with which many procedures are carried out can be both frightening, intimidating, and have a traumatizing effect.

Your story is not the norm. I'm guessing from your post that you could afford quality medical care during your pregnancy and childbirth. This is not an option for many, as we all know.

There's no one to blame here. Doctors and nurses are trying to do their jobs under less than ideal conditions, with patients who may be unable or unwilling to cooperate or understand what is happening to them.

[antigone382]

173. Obstetricians perform surgeries on laboring women FAR more than can be defended

25% of all current births in America are through C-section--there's nothing whatsoever to defend such a high percentage for a normal biological process. They also induce much too quickly during natural births, and perform more episiotomies than I think can be defended. I'm opposed to inducement in general...labor is supposed to be a gradual process, but pitocin causes immediate, severe contractions that result in a much higher percentage of complications (and thus, a greater demand for surgeries). I don't want to ascribe this entirely to greed and selfishness, but these practices do speed the process of labor along, and each surgical operation puts more money in the Dr.'s pocket.

Further, the position they put the women in, forcing them to lie on their backs for the duration of labor, cuts off circulation to the pelvic floor, where a good portion of the muscles necessary for childbirth are. There's often a surge of extreme hunger at the beginning of labor, which helps to give the laboring woman sustenence It's all done to make checking for distress, and performing any potential surgery easier; the ironic side effect is that these things actually increase the likelihood that a complication requiring surgery will occur.

Now, all of this may not constitute a rape-like violation, but I certainly don't think current delivery room practices resemble what is in the laboring woman's best interest.

[Crunchy Frog]

206. It's actually closer to 33%.

[antigone382]

211. sick...

Yeah, I'm sure 1/3 of all women are anatomically incapable of bearing a child...it's not like our bodies are *designed for that purpose* or anything.

[piratefish08]

4. the only thing that concerned my wife was getting the epidural in,

and the baby out. she didn't seem to be in the mood for a game of Mother May I?

on the other hand, I am a guy and probably wrong so please don't attack me.

I was just happy to find a thread that didn't have to do with Koran burning.

[Better Today]

11. Epiderals are a god-send. I liked them so much, I had a complete, full hysterectomy with

an epidural and was up, around, and healed much faster than any of the other patients he hysterectomied that morning (7 in all) and he decided to offer it to everyone. I sort of demanded it, because I really react badly to general anesthesia.

[Crystal Clarity]

160. I wish I had known that I had a right to an epidural or a say in anything

for that matter...

I had just turned 19 and was submissive and naive having been raised in a strict rw fundy home. Though this was pre-computer (1985) I read and re-read the 2 medical/pregnancy books I had available to me (all my small town library had). I feared alot of things back then but am not afraid to admit that labor pain topped the list.

So when I uncovered info about epidurals, it was the first thing I brought up w/my doctor on my next checkup. He flatly told me that I wouldn't need one. End of discussion. "But, but" I meekly tried to protest... at which point he cut me off by saying he'd "give me something if I needed it".

Because this guy was my ex husband's family doctor, my ex refused to take me to another. Kind of like how he refused to allow me to work, drive, own a telephone or leave the house w/out him (a story for another day).At any rate, I truly believed I had no choice at the time.

The entire experience of giving birth was hell and not only because of the pain. BTW, the doctor never gave me a thing... I guess I "didn't need it" except for the local anesthetic for the double episiotomy... Oh and he failed to warn me that he'd be giving me an f'n enema, hook me up to a monitor for no good medical reason, not allow me water or even ice chips and yell at me for not pushing hard enough during the delivery. I did get an apology for that...sort-of. After my daughter was born (w/forceps) he laughed awkwardly as he was stitching me up and said "I didn't know the baby would be so big" HuhHa! :eyes: Who knew a 9lb 6oz baby girl could emerge from a 142lb (at full term) body?

But it wasn't just the doc and his refusal to give me an epidural and/or pain meds. It was the whole experience. Maybe it's different now, or maybe it was just my individual experience back then, but I had a say in about maybe 2% of what was happening (or at least, that's how I felt). I had people there who I didn't want; my MIL sitting at the foot of the bed whenever they 'checked me', my SIL, my FIL and even at one point, the pastor of my ex's church. :crazy: No one asked for permission, they just showed up. Meanwhile, MY mother who was the one and only person I wanted the most, wasn't there. Had to work she said, but I think it had more to do w/my father not letting her be w/me since I had shamed the family.

I wouldn't call this whole experience "Rape". However, it was certainly a violation of boundaries and I felt violated. I'm not blaming anyone really (although, I do, in retrospect, think the doctor was insensitive, at best)... I think in my personal circumstance it was a combination of things that were mostly cultural in origin. Mine, my ex's, my mother's, and probably even the doctor's.

People seem to be getting hung up on the word "Rape" in this thread which is why I think it shouldn't be the terminology used. But I do think many women have good reason to take a stand on how they should and should not be treated at such a vulnerable time. Call it whatever, but there are issues still that need to be addressed.

[seabeyond]

14. i dont know, i saw epidural and came right to your post. +1. i agree. nt

[msanthrope]

34. That's the only reason I clicked on this thread, too....no Koran burning. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

77. To your last statement

AMEN!

I'm also glad to be reading about something else today!

[WinkyDink]

175. Bwah!

[Better Today]

5. I also wonder then if standard check ups would be considered rape?

Again, I'm confused as to how or when this would be forced on someone, but if it's rape when done during pregnancy, it is rape when it's done without pregnancy?

[uncommon]

9. A laboring woman is not on firm footing

like a non-laboring woman. She is in pain, exposed, and often very frightened. She is often at the mercy of doctors and nurses she has never met before and they do not stand around asking what you want, they just do things as they choose unless you stand up to them -- easier said than done for many women.

[snooper2]

15. You can't just make stuff up...

Most women know damn well who their doctor is because he's the same one who has been giving checkups for the previous nine months.

And she is not "exposed", just when the baby a minute from being pushed out...

"They just do things as the choose" jeezus :eyes:

[uncommon]

27. You are incorrect --

one's own doctor is often unavailable when you go into labor. My daughter was delivered by total strangers I had never met before.

And what you say above may be true for middle-class women with insurance who can have consistent prenatal care - but for uninsured and poor women, this can be a very different experience.

Don't tell me what happens in a birthing room - I've been there and I know what happens.

[snooper2]

29. I've been there as well, a few times...

Stop pushing your fear mongering...

[lolly]

46. Two of my babies were delivered by complete strangers

The first was, if not rape, pretty close to a mugging.

My doctor wasn't available, someone else from the practice came in. He had heavily-accented English, and I couldn't understand what he said, so he got very angry with me when I couldn't figure out his questions.

The nurse translated, and he was trying to figure out if the baby was breech. My own doctor--no great shakes himself--hadn't told me that the baby was breech, so I assumed it wasn't.

Stranger Doctor did a pelvic on my that I can say without reservation was the single most painful event in my life. I was screaming, and he wouldn't stop, just kept pushing harder. When he was finished,I was still hurting. Couldn't think. The nurse seemed to understand and tried to comfort me after he left. I guess this was his normal bedside manner.

If I could get that SOBs license taken away and have him sent to jail, I would.

[DevonRex]

80. That's an insult to ALL women. You're painting us as weak and stupid

and helpless and that's fucking bullshit. You just ask delivery room nurses about how helpless women in labor are. I know a couple who probably thought I was possessed by Satan and as strong as those guys in those world's strongest guy competitions.

[seabeyond]

82. i didnt feel that uncommon. there is a fear in giving birth, sure. the unknown.

but i felt confident in the abilities of those doing their job. it isnt unlike any other medical procedure that you put yourself in anothers hand to take care of you. dont you think?

my friend went back into nursing recenting after being out a decade. and that is one of the things she was takling about hte other night. the vulnerability the patient feels.

[cleanhippie]

88. And that is rape?

While I understand what you are saying, by your rationale, a laboring woman is not on "firm footing" so the medical professionals are doing what they feel needs to be done for her and the baby's safety, so how is that rape?

[lolly]

140. Not necessarly

Doing an exam may be necessary for the baby's safety; doing it without regard for her pain and without taking any care whatsoever to avoid pain is abuse.

Rape is a different thing; perhaps those describing this type of behavior from physicians should rename it, but it is real.

Just because it didn't happen to a particular person doesn't mean it doesn't ever happen.

[cleanhippie]

163. Never said that.

I just asked if it was rape or not.

[lolly]

181. Several People have said that on this thread

That it's bs, that it's just a whiny excuse for victimhood, that it's just women complaining because a doctor didn't say please and thank you.

[seabeyond]

182. people have said it ISN'T rape. why the fuck

would you make their experiences less twisting peoples words....

[cleanhippie]

209. But I didn't say that.

So why are you blasting me?

[lolly]

178. People in pain are not on "firm footing"

Does that mean it is OK to inflict more pain on them, and treat them badly?

[cleanhippie]

210. Did I say that?

Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? This is the second time in this thread you have done this. What gives?

[ourbluenation]

131. bull shit. speak for yourself. I was fucking FIERCE!

For 33 hours I pushed out a 9 pound bruiser. My son and I were a glorious team and I was never more powerful. Booyah!

[seabeyond]

136. ya... and right as delievery was a comin, i started to feel things. ah... boys, boys, quit talkin

and get me some more damn drugs....

ok

you sound more the woman than i. i am wussy, i admit.

[ourbluenation]

141. don't know that it makes me more womanly...but yeah...

I certainly wasn't the softie, not on "firm footing" as noted up thread. ugh.

[CTyankee]

191. Oh, please. Not everyone has that high a sensitivity to pain. Why do you say "ugh" to her?

That's just mean...

I know I feel more pain than some others...maybe you. Why does that make you superior? We are all human beings, aren't we?

[seabeyond]

194. hey... i am an admitted wuss. and i dont care if EVERYONE knows, lol. nt

[ourbluenation]

204. high five sister!

:headbang:

[ourbluenation]

202. because he or she said "women in labor are not on firm footing"...

not "some" woman in labor are not on firm footing. ugh was in reference to the insinuation, by lack of the word "some" that all women in labor are un-empowered to advocate on their own behalf. It's horse shit. some of us were and are. And all though I have no proof, I'd say most of us are but I certainly begrudge no one who isn't and never insinuated as such.

[lolly]

215. That's what I was responding to

The idea that what we're talking about is women who just aren't in any condition to make serious medical decisions.

It's true--at that stage you might not be able to--that doesn't mean it's OK for a doctor (or nurse) to hurt you or yell at you. It's too easy for a doctor to take over and do whatever he wants when you're in a vulnerable position.

[Vinnie From Indy]

7. "If debates about childbirth weren't already incendiary enough"

LOL!

I agree with post No. 1 - "nonsense".

[COLGATE4]

8. One more attack by Midwife advocates against OB/Gyn's. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

134. It wouldn't happen if so many OB/GYN's weren't acting like rapists. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

179. Because they all do?

That's ridiculous.

[Crunchy Frog]

185. Did I say that?

Some of them do.

[lolly]

188. I don't think it's as common as it used to be

But there still are OB/GYNs who are more into exercising control over women than helping them.

My mother worked as an OB/GYN nurse in the 50s and 60s (there were almost NO women doctors then) and she used to say that there were 2 reasons men became obstetricians--because they love women,or because they hate them.

The one who treated me 24 years ago definitely did NOT love women.

And he knew what he was doing--he did all this while my husband was away. He was quite polite and friendly to my husband when he came back.

[Dorian Gray]

238. You implied it

Look, I feel for women who have bad birth experiences. I'm due in six weeks myself, and fear that it will not be all I hope it to be. (And it probably won't be. I'm a pragmatist, and I understand pain is a part of the process, especially since I am a high risk patient.) There are many OBs who are fantastic, and I am sure that there are many who leave a lot to be desired. There are many problems that can (and have) arise with doulas or midwives in place of doctors. I actually have a very frightening story that my friend experienced as a result of a home birth. The baby scratched her on the way out. She went into septic shock. The midwife wasn't able to deal with the issue and she had to be rushed to the hospital. That story doesn't make home deliveries a bad thing. It's just one story. (Though, admittedly, it is a story where I personally know the patient and it has affected my thinking about where I will give birth.) Each woman has different ambitions for her birth, and sometimes OBs are a better match, sometimes not.

I have nothing against midwives, but I don't think that OBs have a bad name, nor do I think that it is warranted that people make blanket statements against them. There are pros and cons to both, and I think it's really important to have a comfortable working relationship with your Obstetrician or your midwife. If you don't feel comfortable with them before birth, then while giving birth... it'll be that much worse.

[Barack_America]

233. Wow.

[Robyn66]

236. WOW that is one hell of a statement. (nt)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

13. The ongoing trivialization of the word "rape" helps no one

[tammywammy]

22. +1 n/t

[seabeyond]

24. agree. nt

[Book Lover]

33. My thoughts as well (nm)

[SidDithers]

37. +1...

well said.

Sid

[JerseygirlCT]

45. I agree with this nt

[Dappleganger]

68. In complete agreement with you on this.

Let's be specific about what actions take place but don't misuse words or make blanket statements.

[Dorian Gray]

78. Good and succinct point.

[lolly]

190. And of course, that's the only issue involved here, right?

I get that the writer was being over-dramatic--

why does that give people license to dismiss the problem?

Maybe the ongoing trivialization of abusive treatment isn't very helpful either.

[NightWatcher]

16. I recently had an accident and awoke to find strangers doing things to my body

Someone had strapped my head to a board, put a collar around my neck, immobilized my arms, and prevented me from moving.

Were they doing this to be mean? No, they were providing medical treatment. Sometimes we cant give consent and have to let pros do their thing.

[Iris]

67. Totally different.

[Dappleganger]

69. Hope you're ok.

Not feeling in control is scary enough as it is.

:hug:

[seabeyond]

17. my doctor was a professional, acted like one, and did his job, well. none of this

makes sense to me. unless there is just the real creepy doctor.... but all the other stuff, meh.

[trumad]

25. My wife was "insurance raped" while on the table.

I'll never forget it... she was about a half hour away from giving birth ---on the table---ready to go--- and the Doctor--- Doctor Bob was his name---he looked like Captain Kangaroo---- walked in and the first thing he asked was if we had insurance.

My first thought was---- WTF!---if we didn't, would he not deliver the baby. We did have insurance--- the miserable HMO--Kaiser Permanente--- but I always wondered what would have happened if we said no.

Weird for sure.

BTW: This was in Joplin, Missouri.

[seabeyond]

32. i had nurse bob that did my epidural. LOVED the man. second, on last child had insurance

paid more cash having insurance than when i had my first child and paid cash.

[izquierdista]

28. Just people confused about class again

If you are rich, doctors will fawn all over you and try to make the experience preferable to a health spa. If you are poor, indigent, immigrant, or similarly unimportant, they will process you with all the care of the 15-minute oil change shop. There is no "rape" or violence; you'll be treated just as gently or roughly as any other part coming down the assembly line.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ozymanithrax]

35. We should geneticallyh engineer the human body so that birth occurs...

through non-sexual organs.

Maybe re-enginered women can vomit the baby up.

[pipi_k]

40. Actually I would like to see men be able to give birth...

that would be interesting, to say the least...for a variety of reasons.


:+

[Ozymanithrax]

42. We men screw up everything we touch, and you want us to have babies?

But it would make for some interesting possibilities. Primogeniture would have a whole knew meaning.

[joshcryer]

213. I suspect we'll move beyond this whole sexual reproduction phase soon enough.

Maybe not in my lifetime but it's obviously a dead end.

[DevonRex]

38. That's an insult to rape victims. nt

[emilyg]

43. Yes.

[woo me with science]

47. I think all of DU went on a bad drug trip this week. nt

[Dr. Strange]

51. My thoughts exactly.

We're not close to a full moon, though. Chemtrails maybe?

[seabeyond]

54. i am thinking this is one subject most all agree, is bullshit. nt

[Robyn66]

48. As a rape survivor

You are confusing bad treatment at a hospital with something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. In one way I am glad you don't know the difference because its a frame of reference I wouldn't wish on anyone. But you are wrong. Get a lawyer, sue for mal practice. But I have had two children, both times I was induced. One doctor was a complete bastard one was wonderful and I promise you the experience with the bad doc was NOTHING like being raped.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robyn66]

60. This kind of topic just burns me up!

People have trivialized Rape and just glue it on to every negative experience without even thinking about what it really means. Shame on them.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sinkingfeeling]

72. Thanks for saying that. It appears that many participating in this thread don't realize the

trauma of a real rape.

[ourbluenation]

135. and as a rape crisis director, I thank you for saying just what I was thinking...

:hug:

[lolly]

184. Really?

As a rape crisis director, I'm sad to see that you aren't more sympathetic towards women who have been treated like this.

Does an attempt at description that employs faulty terminology mean that women who experienced this deserve contempt?

[seabeyond]

186. because she says it isnt rape, is that not being sympathitic, or giving contempt?

your posts are so dishonest in the twisting of words, to make them something that they are not

please stop

[ourbluenation]

201. by throwing around the word rape for something that isn't rape you belittle actual survivors.

The scenario described in the op may be insensitive, it may be mal-practice, but it is most certainly not rape.

[LynneSin]

49. Seriously - you have GOT to be fucking kidding me!!

First, like what several other posters have commented on - this is an insult to those women who have really been raped.

Second there is an implied assumption that when you are in the hospital giving birth to a child that people will be looking at your vagina and yes, from time to time touching it. It's called childbirth and if this is an issue for some women perhaps they should go childless, adopt or find a way to deliver a child without any other human assistance.

[ceile]

50. +1! n/t

[lolly]

218. Whoa!

Please look at what you wrote and consider walking it back.

If you don't like the idea of having your cervix pried open by a stranger, or to being shoved on a table and yelled at during labor--don't have kids. Get thee to a nunnery!

The odd thing with this thread is the irony of defending rape victims against trivialization--by using the same language and sexist assumptions that were used for centuries against victims of rape.

If you were abused in the delivery room, it's because you weren't strong and assertive!

You say you were abused? Well, it could have been worse, what are you complaining about?

If you don't want to face it, don't have kids!

It's all in your mind. You're being hysterical. You're misinterpreting the situation.

There's also the assumption that the two categories are mutually exclusive--but it's quite probable that many victims of rape have subsequently suffered from this problem. It's a safe bet that the experience could add to the trauma, triggering flashbacks in a woman who had been brutalized and humiliated by rape. Would anybody suggest that she should just lighten up, it wasn't as bad as the rape, so don't worry about it?

[blueamy66]

252. Exactly.

You said it perfectly.

[s-cubed]

52. It is ;NOT nonsense. I still remember the callousness

of the doctor who took over when my first doctor had to leave. The second one, whom I had never met, didn't even have the decency to introduce himself to me, or to talk to me about what was happening. A male might not understand, but any woman who has been through childbirth knows how vulnerable you feel. In contrast, the two nurses stayed with me past their shift change until my son was born. I am still grateful for their caring.

[seabeyond]

56. lousy doctor does not = rape. nt

[Robyn66]

57. IT may be calousness and being a bad doctor but it is NOT Rape!

Some doctors are excellent at what they do but they are bastards, maybe your doctor wasnt even good at what he did but regardless you have to advocate for yourself. Yes you are vulnerable but you are still in control. Did you say stop and he didn't stop or was he cold and rude? Did you get a healthy baby out of the experience? Were you in a crisis and there wasn't time for warm and fuzzy? I don't know you or your experience and I am not trying to judge you but people throw that word Rape around like its nothing and it is a very very serious thing. Do you have nightmares about it, did this experience ruin relationships and how you look at the world? Did it require you to receive therapy? These are some of the questions you need to ask yourself before you apply the word Rape to something.

[sinkingfeeling]

65. How can you equate 'callousness' to rape?

[revolution breeze]

53. Between all the Qu'ran burning threads and now this....

I think I need a break from DU. I am going to take a break for a few days and let things calm down. Hopefully it is all just 9/11 frenzy, or a full moon, or something.

[seabeyond]

59. i think the poster accomplished his intent with this op then revolution. i hear ya. nt

[Fleshdancer]

62. Wow. There's a phrase for what happened to me?

I've never heard of birth-rape before, but when I describe my experience, I tell people I felt very violated.

This was 10 years ago and I had my daughter overseas. Since I knew I was going to have to have a natural birth (not by choice), I prepared for it the best I could...took hypnobirth classes, read about best positions and any other tips known, etc.

When the time finally came, I went to my doctor's clinic and waited for my cervix to dilate with very few visits from the nurses. Eventually I was ready to push, was moved to the stirrups, and that's when all hell broke loose. I explained the position I wanted to be in, but I was shoved on to my back. I was trying to do the breathing exercises I practiced, but the nurse to the right of me plugged my nose and shut my jaw to get me to hold my breath instead. The nurse on my right pushed hard on my stomach with every contraction and when I tried to scream, the nurse plugging my noise slapped me in the face. My husband started pushing the nurses off of me, they screamed at him, he screamed back, the doctor threatened to throw my husband out, and suddenly I crowned. Several more painful jabs to my stomach and finally my daughter was out. She wasn't breathing and she was purple. The doc shoved a tube down her throat and eventually she began to cry. They took her away, then after the after birth, I endured the stitches without pain medicine. I remember the doctor yelling at me for not staying still.

They kept my daughter overnight for observation and told me to go to my room. I had to walk down a flight of stairs to get there.

This is the first time I've typed it out and I'm in tears and shaking again. It's been a while since I've told this story.

[Robyn66]

66. I am so sorry this happened to you!

That is a horrifying experience, I am glad you and your daughter survived. You are a strong woman. What country were you in?

[Fleshdancer]

95. Thank you Robynn66. Truth be told, I was afraid I would get flamed for sharing.

I personally wouldn't call what happened to me a rape, but I can understand why people would make the comparisons. My situation was brutal and unnecessary. Worst of all, I was robbed of what should have been one of the happiest days of my life.

I was told a few years ago from a nurse here in the states that pushing down on me was a dangerous thing to do. I had no idea at the time, I just knew it hurt like hell.

This happened in Japan just 10 years ago believe it or not.

[seabeyond]

99. i wouldnt call it rape, either. sick, yes. and no flame, empathy, though.

i felt the same as you, a time when you should be able to relate the story.... in remembrance of special, was taken away from you.

and japan.... that is so sad. their whole culture is so sad.

[lolly]

142. Thank you for telling your story

It sounds worse than mine--and mine still leaves me upset.

I grant that rape isn't the right word. Abuse of power, gynocological or obstetrical abuse would be more accurate terms.

For those who didn't experience something like this, or who experienced mere callousness or brusque doctors, why do you assume that it doesn't happen just because it didn't happen to you? It does happen--I don't know how much, but it happens.

And for those who keep telling women to "be in control," --seriously?????? How, exactly, is a woman in labor supposed to stay in control? If you did, it's because the people around you were helping out, or those trying to pressure you weren't doing it that hard.

[seabeyond]

149. no one.... NO ONE has said it doesnt happen. that it is not a horrible experience

we firmly say it is wrong. i hear some stories here today, and am disgusted adn sad that a woman had to experience what they did

what so many women ARE saying is it is not rape. as you haev said

no one is making lite of the others experience.

[lolly]

158. Yes, some are making light

Calling it "callousness" or "bad bedside manner" is making light of it.

It isn't rape, but it isn't "bad bedside manners" either.

And why would people feel the two types of incidents are in some sort of contest? True, the original article could have come up with a more specific word, but pointing that out and offering suggestions would be more helpful than denying this other problem.

FWIW--both problems stem from the same pathological fear/hatred of women and the need to control/overpower them. One takes advantage of women in labor, another brutalizes women.

[seabeyond]

161. bullshit. women dont want raped to be used for a doctor doing a crappy job

however he may be doing that crappy job.

rape has its own place. and it isnt in this

i do not see one person dismissing anothers experience told.

[lolly]

192. That post just made my point

This isn't about doing a crappy job.

There have been several posts saying this is bs, that it's to be expected, that it's bogus, that people are imaging things. Perhaps those posts are on ignore and are not seen by all (?) but they are there, lots of them. I am not twisting words.

A discussion of rape has its own place, but this OP was about the experience of women who have been abused in labor and delivery. It used a hyperbolic term that has led people off the path, but it was about the treatment of women n labor.

[seabeyond]

195. no one is saying there are not crappy doctors, that do lousy jobs one way or another. and my post

did not prove anything.....

yes, you want a thread talking about the crappy, inept, insensitive, abusive doctor in delivery room, start a thread, adn we will talk about it. but the issue for the op was declaring this rape. hence what we are talking about

every woman that talked about an abusive situation was recognized, and even the man that experienced it at the loss of a child. they are HORRIBLE situations and experiences. horrible.... and we have clearly recognized that. what you are created is dishonest. and it is wrong, to each of the women, and to each poster that recognizes the wrong yet YOU dismiss them as uncaring.

[AngryAmish]

89. What hellhole country was this in?

terrible

[Fleshdancer]

92. believe it or not, Japan

more specifically, I was in Fujisawa which is out side of Yokohama. Sounds like a 3rd world story though, doesn't it?

[AngryAmish]

94. Well, can't be worse than Northwestern memorial Hospital in Chicago

otoo personal. sorry.

[Fleshdancer]

96. holy f*ck!

I am so very sorry. I wouldn't wish your experience on my worst enemy. That is awful.

[seabeyond]

100. oh, that is horrible. just horrible

i am so sorry. wow.

how you did your post made it so much more blunt, too. a valid thing

i am sad for you

[Regret My New Name]

101. 8. ?

[cleanhippie]

93. What a horrible experience.

You have my condolences and thanks for sharing.



One question: what happened to you is rape?

[Fleshdancer]

97. no. It was violent, it caused serious pain both physically and emotionally...

it robbed me of what should have been a very personal, proud, and happy moment in my life and I felt very violated. I personally wouldn't call it rape, but after it happened, I did compare it to rape, but felt a pang of guilt when I did. I just didn't have any other word to describe it. I just know it was very intense. No one should have to start motherhood this way. It was so unnecessary.

Sorry if my answer is a bit muddy. Too much emotion involved, it clouds my logic.

[cleanhippie]

98. And I agree with everything you just said.

Again, Im sorry what should have been a great experience turned out otherwise.

[Fleshdancer]

103. thank you cleanhippie

over time I've let go of the anger. I just look at my daughter and focus on the ultimate outcome. If she ever decides to have a baby of her own though, I'm going to be the loudest, most demanding asshole in that delivery room. She will not be treated the way I was.

[cleanhippie]

104. Or she can have the baby at home

like my wife and I did. Midwife, birthing tub, no drugs, no pressure, just let nature take its course.

[Fleshdancer]

110. it's interesting that you mention that....

It took me 7 years to warm up to the idea of getting pregnant again after my experience, but once I stopped taking the pill, I decided that I would have a home birth if I ever ended up pregnant again. It's amazing how many people freak out over the idea! I can't think of a more beautiful way to bring a baby into the world...warm, calm, and everyone there loves and cares about you.

[cleanhippie]

115. Its actually the safest environment

for a "normal" pregnancy. Going to a hospital to give birth if everything is "normal" is really an irrational move, as the risk of complications increase exponentially in the hospital.

[Robyn66]

237. With all do respect

Both of my children were born with complications. One had the cord wrapped around her neck the other had breathing problems from the moment she was born and had elevated white cells. I would not have traded giving birth in a hospital for anything. I am very glad it worked out for you but I would be TERRIFIED to give birth at home for fear something went wrong. I like the idea of having life flight available to take the baby to Boston if need be.

I would be the last one to judge. But if anything happened to either of my kids because I made a choice not to give birth in a hospital I would not be able to forgive myself.

[seabeyond]

239. under stress, cord wrapped around neck, needed salad spoons on my first

and i am thankful for hospital. second, a breeze, but i like my epidural. i am a wuss and a chicken.

also huge thumbs up for women that chose homebirth.

not for me

[lolly]

145. Exactly

I felt robbed and violated.

I didn't want anyone touching me for a while. When I had to go for my 6 week physical, I cried at the thought of going to a doctor again.

For me it's been 24 years. I don't think about it anymore, but seeing this thread brought up a rush of memories.

So, yes, there definitely should be a protocol for defining and addressing this type of behavior from medical professionals.

To those who keep comparing it to a prostate exam--do you think it would be OK if the examining doctor yelled at you when you didn't understand him, shoved you on the table, and performed the exam with absolutely no attempt to avoid pain? Now imagine it's an impaired or elderly gentleman who is in no position to defend himself. Does this sound OK to you?

[seabeyond]

152. i havent seen anyone compare to prostate exam. please point it out. and abuse is just that

wrong. any abuse, wrong.

on edit... i havent read all the posts. maybe someone did. i dont know. none of the ones i read compared to prostate exam. ignore that

[apples and oranges]

172. You have been trivializing the experience of women

who were violated all over this thread! Just click "My DU."

[seabeyond]

174. i thought you were done with me. you lie, too. not once have i made light of experience skippy

prove it...

i did not make lite of one post of anothers experience. as a matter of fact, each womans experience is so important to me.... i took the time to acknowledge and embrace their experience. tell me what a bad guy i am... and your little op for chuckles.

[RayOfHope]

139. That's horrifying :(

I am so very sorry that happened to you. The birth of my first was traumatic (although it pales in comparison to your story) and it just never leaves you. I am so tired of people telling me "but you have a healthy baby and that's all that really matters."


I hope you can find some peace.

[Hekate]

166. Oh God, I'm so sorry. Such a thing should NEVER happen. How hideously cruel.

:cry: :hug: How could anyone treat another human being like this, much less a laboring woman?

I hope you find someone you can talk with about this horrible experience, and that you are able to heal from this terrible trauma. :cry: :hug:

Hekate

[myrna minx]

64. I think we should change our name to Duchamp Underground.

What a week - and it's only Thursday. :rofl: Nice 'readymade' thread.

[GoneOffShore]

71. Or maybe Dada Underground.

[myrna minx]

74. I thought about Dada Underground as well, but this thread seems sooo specifically Duchamp to me.

:D What a week!

[CreekDog]

75. I'm gonna say it: this is stupid

yes, doctors can be jerks and manhandling is sometimes uncalled for or unduly rough.

but calling this "birth rape" is about the stupidest thing I've heard in a good while.

[Dorian Gray]

76. I read an article

recently about this (as it was something I was interested in, due to give birth myself in a few weeks). I don't know.... I think that I perhaps am too trusting of my OB/GYN. I love her and think whatever she does for my delivery will be fine. But I think if I were to deliver with a relative stranger, I might feel a bit more awful about not being given the proper amount of courtesy with these things. I ask a lot of questions and need to know what is going on. My OB is good at answering questions for me, so that's good.

[TwilightGardener]

79. Not everything that's rude, unpleasant, done without consent, etc. is rape.

That word loses its power when applied here. Unless the doctor/nurses were deliberately sexually assaulting the patient, instead of just not exhibiting effective bedside manner.

[lolly]

150. We're not talking about rude or umpleasant

We're talking about abuse.

And it does happen. Let's just call it abuse, and stop denying that it happens and that it's real.

[Crunchy Frog]

167. No, but some things are. Especially when done without consent.

[Radical Activist]

81. I appreciate the attempt but

I don't think this will reach the level of a circumcision thread.

Interesting concept I've never thought about before.

[seabeyond]

83. lol

ya

feels about that.

[JuniperLea]

106. We should all go to Olive Garden to discuss it... eom

[Radical Activist]

108. Only if I don't have to hear a screaming child, see breast feeding

or get circumcised while I'm there.

[JuniperLea]

111. Deal, but you can't smoke outside the restaurant...

And you can't pledge your purity either.

[seabeyond]

113. ??? what?

you have to smoke in the restaurant and screw like rabbits in the booths???/

confused

[JuniperLea]

116. Wow... did I just proposition someone on DU??!??

God I'm good!

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

121. lol....

shruggin, you know, just lookin for clarification

[Radical Activist]

120. hey wait a minute

this is sounding better.

[seabeyond]

122. wink

bah hahaha

[JuniperLea]

148. And here I thought it was just about breadsticks!

:rofl:

[Radical Activist]

119. What if I pledge my purity during the circumcision?

Would that be ok?

[JuniperLea]

151. Whoa...

Sorry, that's just too deep for me!

:rofl:

[Fleshdancer]

117. only if I can bring my pit bull

She's still breastfeeding her pups, I hope that's not a problem.

[JuniperLea]

154. I love pit bulls!

The only thing I like better is a basket full of puppies! You have both! Nice!

[Hekate]

169. mmmm... puppy fritters at Olive Garden...

[JuniperLea]

180. Hahaha!

Oh dear... PETA would have a fit!

[seabeyond]

183. meh...

they would just get some young gal to get neekid

[JuniperLea]

187. That always struck me as odd...

I'm a neekid chick! I'm better than you! ha!

[Vickers]

84. "If debates about childbirth weren't already incendiary enough"

Huh?

:shrug:

[WolverineDG]

85. Oh goody, something new to feel all "victimized" about

:eyes:

ffs.

dg

[woo me with science]

127. It's a lifestyle!

[seabeyond]

130. it warms my heart to see your acknowledgment that majority of women call bullshit to this

and are bothered about it devaluing the definition of rape, instead of pretending that all women are laying on the railroad tracks in a swoon.

[woo me with science]

144. Seabeyond!

Color me shocked! :hi:

[seabeyond]

155. woo me with science !!!!

why?

because once again i am calling you on your misrepresentation of a thread about female

oh

i swoon

and look

landed on the damn railroad tracks...

grinnin, in snark. lol

[woo me with science]

159. LOL

I still have a theory that you are a mole.

Because you are so GOOD at it! :)

[seabeyond]

162. really. .... lol lol.

talk about conspiracy theories and just what in the hell am i gonna be molin for, lol

rah, repugs? bah haha

i am that good.

i havent heard that one yet. hate men, ya.... but not mole

[woo me with science]

165. You, my dear,

are an important part of the DU experience.

:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

177. .

i like you too, but i think i get confused sometimes. i thought you were a guy in dallas.

but i see gal..... and isnt it okla?

so confused. always confused. well, not always, but sometimes. now anyway

do we do this dance often?

[cleanhippie]

86. I would need to look at specific examples of what this is talking about

in order to make a decision. At first glance, this seems like a bunch of BS.......

[Odin2005]

91. Wow, a trivialization of the term "rape" and an insult to Ob/Gyn docs.

:puke:

[AnArmyVeteran]

102. Then I was DENTIST-RAPED!

I went to a female dentist (I'm a male) and while in the prone position she was craming one thing after another in my mouth. Here's the most abusive part: The dentist didn't use a tray for her dental tools, she used my chest. After each tool was withdrawn from my mouth she would throw the tool on my chest. Depending on the way it was thrown and how heavy the tool was it hurt my chest like hell. My mouth was mostly paralyzed but I managed to protest, but she continued to throw things on my chest. I couldn't just leave because my tooth would have been in excruciating pain so I toughed it out. After my ordeal was over and got home I opened my shirt and had several small bruises.

I've never experienced this kind of rough behavior before or again. I complained to her office and to the proper authorities.

I'm sure there are rough doctors in every medical profession and a woman in a vulnerable position could easily be victimized by an abusive or perverted doctor.

[JuniperLea]

107. Bad medicine, no question...

But I'm rather sickened that this is being held up to rape as if it were equal.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GSLevel9]

112. weird thread... nt

[seabeyond]

114. meh... it happens. i think op intentionally had a motive, adn this is a result. nt

[Hekate]

147. OP tossed a stink-bomb into the room, closed the door, and left in a hurry. Mission Accomplished.

What a jerk.

Hekate

[seabeyond]

156. yup. nt

[apples and oranges]

168. seabeyond, I am done talking with you.

If you have an issue with the term, take it up with the ladies who feel in their hearts they were violated. But you will be going on my ignore list. Goodbye.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

118. what a crock of shyte.

when a fetus is distressed, and vaginal birth becomes problematic, an emergency C-Section may involve pushing, pulling, and emergency moves by a doctor, the nurses, and more. they frankly do NOT CARE which orifice is entered by how many digits, for how long, or how deep, THEY ARE TRYING TO SAVE TWO LIVES.

This whole concept is a complete crock of shit. Only a moron would give it any credence. Talk to any OB/GYN for the real truth.

[apples and oranges]

170. Tell that to the ladies who coined the term

[Redstone]

189. Sure, I'll tell them that. Right to their idiotic faces, because it IS a crock.

Was Mrs R "violated" by the exams she had, and the C-section she needed because the Little Guy had his cord pinched under his arm?

Did it "violate" her that the doctors performed that surgery to save our baby's life?

I was there for ALL of it. And, believe me, if ANYONE "violated" my wife, they'd be in a wheelchair for the rest of their life. Anyone who knows me, knows that's true.

Guess what? Nobody's in a wheelchair.

As I said, the statement in your post is nothing but inflammatory bullshit. And I'm sick of looking at it, so I'll bow out of this ridiculous thread.

Redstone

[ChairmanAgnostic]

224. you tell them. They won't listen to reason or fact, so

why would I bother to waste my time?

Better yet, have them learn about pre-eclampsia and eclamptic conditions that can be fatal to mommy and child, about brain damage that occurs because a gentle approach leaves the neonate without Oxygen to the brain, about paralyzed limbs, because speed was not the order of the day, and the limb's nerve bundle was pressed and folded for so long that the nerve died.

As I said, what a complete crock of shyte.

[lolly]

193. Apparently, your post doesn't exist

Because I was just told several times that nobody made light of this problem in this post.

Again, just because it didn't happen to you (or your wife) doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[seabeyond]

196. RAPE. we are arguing rape. do i have to talk really really slow

each of these people, me included are arguing RAPE.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

227. two of your words had 3 syllables. Far too large, too

complex, for them to grasp.

[Taverner]

125. This reminds me of the nonsense word "Data Rape" from the 90's

The idea that someone looking at your preferences of paper or plastic is a far cry from the act of forcibly sexually assaulting someone.

I am glad that meme never took off - it devalues the term 'rape' and makes it meaningless

[Redstone]

143. Nothing but inflammatory gibberish. Gimme a fucking break.

Redstone

[seabeyond]

157. yup. nt

[proteus_lives]

146. Really stretching on the "rape" part.

I've had asshole and insensitive orthodontists. Was I tooth-raped?

[Pavulon]

153. Did this come from 4chan?(nt)

[Hekate]

164. Baloney. I've delivered two

I delivered my two kids in the 1970s at what had to have been the height of the "natural childbirth" movement. I tried to read everything while I was pregnant with my first, but I stopped after standing in the bookstore scanning all the horror stories of women who had been abused by the hospital system -- or had perceived it that way.

By golly, according to them I was going to be knocked out cold and that kid was going to be yanked from my senseless body with forceps and whisked off to the nursery. He (or she) and I were going to be dopy from the drugs for days, if not for life.

Well, I've got to tell you my great-grandmother and her mother probably would have endorsed the hell out of that scheme if it only meant they would get some relief from a long and painful labor. Queen Victoria, herself the mother of 9 children, had chloroform administered for her last 2 deliveries, and be damned to the clergy who insisted that a painful childbirth was God's punishment on all women for the "sin" of Eve. The elite of London followed her lead, and next thing you know every woman who could afford such attention wanted it.

The more mainstream natural childbirth proponents were pointing out that by the 1930s the whole thing had gotten out of hand, and that women had no say once they entered a hospital in labor. There was some truth to that, and we did have to regain some control up-front -- because by the time you're in labor, it's a little too late to back out.

The more fringy elements in the 1960s and 1970s were totally against painkillers, hospitals, male doctors, and anything that smacked of the establishment. Childbirth was natural! wonderful! just the way Mother Nature intended! You should try this at home! in the bathtub! whatever! Any pain was all in your head! Invite your friends and neighbors in! Let the kids watch the miracle of their new sibling being hatched! ~~~~ I'm sorry, that's just bullshit. ~~~ They never heard of a footling breech or a transverse baby or hips built wrong or placenta praevia ...

Contrary to the hair-raising stories I had read of medical abuse, my OB/GYN at Kaiser was totally supportive of me going to LaMaze classes -- in fact, the hospital held classes on site and urged all of its obstetric patients to take them. He said the knowledge and practice gained there by women made his job a whole lot easier. I know it certainly made my experience easier than it might have been -- my then-husband was completely uninterested in being my coach or even holding my hand, but my mom was an absolute natural when she showed up. Labor was just under 20 hours from start to finish, and while I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a form of entertainment, it was far from nightmarish because I knew what to expect. I was awake, with minimal anesthesia, had an episiotemy for the first and got torn for the second, but not badly.

It's never going to be perfect and the system will always be patchy. All we can do is keep trying to improve maternal medicine, and that includes getting rid of docs who should really find another field of endeavor. One problem is we are fairly short of obstetricians now, as so many of them are restricting their practice to gynecology due to the exorbitant cost of malpractice insurance for obstetricians.

We just have to go on trying to make the system perfect. But "rape"? Oh please.

Hekate

[GoneOffShore]

197. Probably the best thing that I've read in this Duchampian thread.

Thanks for real experience, perspective and, dare I say it, common sense.

[seabeyond]

198. Duchampian

please, can you explain. curious....

[joshcryer]

216. "DU Champion"

Derogatory term to refer to someone who posts something potentially idiotic to incite controversy.

[seabeyond]

222. thanks...

twice now, guys i argue with, and they give me the answer or info needed when i asked.

that is stand up...

appreciate.

[joshcryer]

240. It actually has roots in a very cruel image...

...people will post images of special needs people at the Special Olympics with very insulting captions calling said person a "champion." Some here may not even know about that so I wouldn't say they're aware of it. The term should probably be banned along with many other terms that are banned.

[seabeyond]

241. ah, thanks. that is sad. why???? people are asses.

thanks for putting that info in.

one of my most memorable was helping the swim team of the special olympics kids prior to the competition (coach, instructing) and then watching competition.

[GoneOffShore]

245. Duchampian as in Duchamp - One of the Surrealists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Duchamp

[Crunchy Frog]

171. I think it's a very valid term.

Not every act of medical callousness would fit the definition, but there are some things that very definitely do IMHO.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

199. Reminds me of the time I was mistreated horribly while whine tasting at a vineyard.

[Crunchy Frog]

207. Did they shove a wine bottle up your ass?

[Zanzobar]

208. Childbirth is a violent and bloody sport

The goal of childbirth is to bring mother and child through it alive. Everything else is subordinate to that purpose, and the practitioner is hired to handle the situation as required to fulfill the purpose. To ensure the purpose is fulfilled properly in a "civilized" society, we have regulatory bodies, licensing, and oversight.

Ya just can't get much better than that for the unwashed, uneducated, unmotivated mommies and daddies who might bring a boy kid into the world, cut off the end of his dick, stuff him into a stifling classroom for 20 years only to toil for another 60, then die.

Hey, suck it up. You'll get over the trauma. I think.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

217. Trivializes the word "rape".

Female and proud mother of one, here.

They consented to medical treatment. They signed a legally binding consent form.

Did they forget that???


Doctors have to touch your body to diagnose what's going on. If the doctor is incompetent, or has bad bedside manner, that's not the same thing as rape.

Women who can deliver a baby vaginally should. Women who need a C-section and drugs, like I had, should not be shamed for having a narrow ass and a jammed-in baby. The goal is a healthy mom and healthy baby, and whatever needs to be done to further that end should be done.

The natural childbirth nuts went too far. They scream that "childbirth is a natural process" while ignoring the fact that in the bad old days, one third of women died during or after childbirth.

If it wasn't for modern surgery and antiseptic techniques, I'd be dead. I would be DEAD and my grown child would be DEAD without a C-section.

I think these people are nuts.

[Crunchy Frog]

230. This whole thread is a trivialization of what some women go through

during childbirth. I'm glad that you were able to have the c-section that saved you and your child's life. I had a c-section that I'm not at all sure was necessary (I was never actually told why the doctor thought it was necessary) but I don't see it as a rape. I ultimately consented to it. If I had refused it and they had gone ahead and done it anyway, I would regard it as rape.

There was never a time when 1/3 of women died in childbirth except for when it first moved into hospitals and doctors hadn't yet made the scientific discovery that handwashing was important. They used to go straight from autopsies on women who had died of childbed fever to delivering a baby with no handwashing. Yes, the mortality was extremely high.

For a more realistic idea of maternal mortality rates, try reading about Martha Ballard, a colonial New England midwife. I believe she had 4 or 5 maternal deaths out of approximately 1000 births she attended.

Oh, and a hospital consent form is not an automatic consent for them to do absolutely anything they want to you regardless of your wishes. Nevertheless, I will never sign a blanket consent form; I would always modify it before signing to make clear that I still expect informed consent to apply to individual procedures.

[moriah]

219. If rape is truly about power and not about sex....

.... and I personally believe it IS about power...

Then I can see where the comparison can be made in some cases.

And no, I'm not talking about when a complication arises during childbirth and there simply isn't time to ask permission before they do what they have to do to make sure mother and baby survive. When Mom was pregnant with me, vasa previa and marginal placenta previa were complications and neither of them had been diagnosed before Mom went into labor. We were damn lucky to survive, and both of us required blood transfusions. Mom was confused and scared when the nurse screamed and the doctor shoved an instrument up inside her while trying to get her to the OR for the emergency c-section without explaining why, but there's no way that would be classified as rape.

However, there is a distinct difference in power between the laboring mother and doctors and nurses in the hospital. And I've heard some incredibly scary stories from women about times they felt distinctly violated during labor -- most of those stories, though, had no malicious intent on the part of the medical staff, and that is not something I would consider comparable to rape.

If a medical professional, without medically necessary reasons, exercised their power over the patient for the express purpose of degrading them, humiliating them, or just to feel powerful... I would see that as comparable to rape. But that's very different from stripping the membranes without telling the patient beforehand and asking permission, or insisting on lithotomy position, when it's for a medical purpose (even if that "medical purpose" is so they can get the labor going faster so they can go home early.) I also think that kind of malicious intent is *very* rare.

[Crunchy Frog]

229. This is a quote from a response to a Salon article on the same subject.

In my estimation, though, there is not insignificant potential for abuse and at least "rape-like" situations to occur. Not frequently but not so rare either. The quickest example I can come up with is the time a doula friend of mine heard the OB say while a VBAC mom was pushing (pretty much under his breath, I don't even think the mom heard this): "It's the LEAST you can do for your VBAC" and he put one end of the scissors in her vagina and one in her anus and cut her a 4th degree episiotomy. No fetal distress, no reason beyond what I guess was his irritation at not just doing a repeat cesarean?

[moriah]

248. Yeah, that's one I would consider "rape-like" at least.

No medical reason, just to exert his power by hurting the patient.

And I hope to God that doula testified before the medical board at the very least to get that guy disciplined. Purposely causing a fourth-degree tear? Risking contaminating the entire area with fecal bacteria? That's malpractice at the very least.

[Lucian]

221. Wait...what?

:wtf:

[USArmyParatrooper]

223. I can safely say this is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

225. I'd agree but someone sends me Sarah tweets. . .

so, it is a close call.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

226. I'd agree but someone sends me Sarah tweets. . .

so, it is a close call.

[HEyHEY]

231. well, is rape the appropriate term if it isn't sexual?

Not saying it's right at all. But I always associate rape with forced sexual contact. This is also the first I've heard of this, but it sounds like something that could EASILY be a big problem.
Glad it's been brought up, cause if I ever have kids, I'll be damn sure to be in that room watching things.

[moriah]

249. As I said in my post, if rape is truly about power and not about sex....

... then I can see comparisons in very limited situations, because there is a huge power differential between the laboring woman and medical personnel. If medical personnel maliciously exercised that power over the patient for no medical purpose -- just to cause pain, humiliation, degradation, and to make themselves feel more powerful.... then yeah, I can see the comparison between that and rape.

And yes, I've been raped.

Twice.

But I think the comparison is valid more because of the feelings that it can cause in the patient -- many rape victims say that the sexual assault evidence-gathering exam and testifying in court about their attack feel like being raped all over again because of the sense of violation, even though neither of those experiences are truly sexual. While it may not be "rape", it certainly feels like a violation.

[Maru Kitteh]

250. Well. There's your problem. Rape isn't sex. Rape is violence and power.

[HEyHEY]

253. That may be why rape happens

But, if you punched a guy in the face you wouldn't say you raped him.

[Warren DeMontague]

242. I'm going to agree that this trivializes the concept and the word "rape".

Shitty medical care, even malpractice, maybe. But not "rape". Calling everything we don't like "rape" does a disservice to actual rape victims, just as calling Kentucky Fried Chicken a "Chicken Holocaust" does a disservice to holocaust victims.

[NashVegas]

243. Bad Term For A Nightmarish Problem

That needs its own name.

[Green_Lantern]

244. this reminds me of Family Guy....

The episode where Peter gets a prostate exam and says the doctor raped him.

I'm not sure how a woman can be forced to deliver a baby once she's already in labor. It's coming whether she likes it or not.

[Madam Mossfern]

246. As a mother of four

and a victim of rape.
I declare 'bullshit'

Obviously the author of the original article had never been raped.

[McCamy Taylor]

247. OB nurses and doctors are notorious for treating women in labor like children.

I am not sure how this is "news".