Are you here to try to control how people feel?

[Jed Dilligan]

I'm speaking as one who has not directly engaged in "dancing on graves." My immediate response to the news of Falwell's death was to post some song lyrics that I found ironic at the moment. "God must be dead if you're alive," sang the Dead Kennedys, to Falwell among others of his kind, in 1986. I felt the same way when I first heard the song, but now half its targets are dead and "God" doesn't seem any more alive to me. I can't mourn for the man but his death doesn't bring me any happiness, either. I think whoever steps into his shoes will be just as bad or worse.

However, I must say I sympathize with those who are expressing joy at their death, much more than I do with the high-roaders who come on here to scold them. I say to the latter, do you really think your fellow DUers have a choice as to how they feel? If they feel something that you deem incorrect or inappropriate, should they bottle it up and keep it to themselves? Do you imagine that this festival of grave-dancing is some kind of calculated political move?

No matter how moral you claim to be, you cannot tell anyone how to feel about anything. People, at least if they are real people and not stuffed-shirt political operatives, feel things without deciding first how they should feel. People feel things for a reason. In this case, I think the reasons are good ones. But even if they were not good reasons in my view, I would never suggest that the airing of these feelings be suppressed for the sake of someone else's sensibilities. Indeed, let's get the ugliest stuff out in the open so at least we know what and where it is. If it's really what people feel, rather than Falwell-style propaganda, we will see it for what it is: either madness, or heartfelt emotions coming from a place of truth.

If the man's legacy to his oft-cited "friends and family" is a public that speaks of him in the same breath as Hitler, so be it. They will have to distance themselves from him to be accepted by us, just as we would expect from the "friends and relatives" of any genocidal maniac.

Does the joy that some feel at Falwell's death make them as evil as he was?

I say, no. I don't think Falwell really felt the awful things he preached. I think he was a cynic playing on the fears and prejudice of the masses to build political and economic and cultural power for a wanna-be elite of religious authoritarians. He spread hatred, not because he felt it in his heart, but as a means to an end. And you can't pin THAT on any of the "dancers" here.

They have feelings and a place to express those feelings. We should honor and celebrate that.

[Lex]

1. " . . . you cannot tell anyone how to feel about anything."

Good point, but it kind of shoots down the rest of your post.

[Jed Dilligan]

2. How so?

It doesn't bother me if people post that the "grave-dancing" makes them feel disgusted or queasy or whatever. But somehow it always seems to turn on what "should" or "shouldn't" be said. I've seen a lot of posts that treat this as some kind of choice, which makes me wonder if they actually have chosen this "high road"--that they're not really feeling anything but just get some weird pleasure out of scolding people.

[treestar]

90. Sometimes I think it may be as simple as your last sentence states

There are some people with a knee jerk reaction to "find" an issue on which they can play at being superior - something they need to keep their ego afloat. There are some people who have to find some inferiority in someone else somewhere, no matter what it is - and they have to show their superiority with the scolding.

It's so easy to ignore a thread. So having to do this kind of thing means there is an affirmative desire to express that "I'm on a high road and better than you" feeling.

[Jed Dilligan]

96. Nail, meet hammer.

You've hit it on the head, I think.

[Xenotime]

143. * can tell people how to feel......

He's been doing it since he took office.

[spoony]

3. "Does the joy that some feel at Falwell's death make them as evil as he was"

It doesn't help their case.

And all this whiny "stop telling me to stop being a ghoul" nonsense needs to stop. No one here except moderators can do shit about anything any of you say. You can be as gleeful as you like at anyone's death, cancer, etc. We can't delete you, so stop acting like we're persecuting you for not applauding your sickening words.

[Jed Dilligan]

6. So feelings are the root of all evil?

I think it's what you do, not how you feel, that makes you evil.

Having or expressing a feeling does not make you evil.

Having or expressing an agenda usually does.

[spoony]

7. Feel free to excuse some hatred and applaud other hatred, but

know that many of us see through it.

By your own tortured logic, people who celebrate AIDS killing gay people aren't evil because they haven't actually killed anyone. Absent any action or any public voice to push ideology, people can be, and are, plenty evil just because of what they feel.

[Jed Dilligan]

11. Please elucidate my "tortured logic"

Here's how I would parse it out:

You're a gay man living with HIV. You lost a partner because of Reagan's refusal to fund AIDS research in the 80s, largely due to the influence of Falwell and his minions. You hear that Falwell finally died--and you're still alive thanks to better policies under Clinton and advances in treatment that should have been made years ago. You are happy to have outlived this monster. You are not evil.

versus

You are a political operative of a religious coalition bent on controlling the US Government and ending the nation's secular democracy. You decide that homophobia is one of the public's weaknesses to be exploited in your culture war. You campaign against gays, resulting in policy that causes thousands of deaths. You are evil.

[spoony]

14. Re-read the last few posts

I was addressing your utterly insipid idea that feelings, minus participation in an agenda, can't make a person evil.

[Jed Dilligan]

16. Insipid?

How so?

Are you a Christian or something?


on edit: You realize your view leaves absolutely no hope for human redemption, don't you?

[spoony]

19. Why don't you just address the matter?

Is someone who takes joy in gaybashing and the murder of gays evil, even if they only do so in secret and without donating to or being a part of any group with an agenda?

[Jed Dilligan]

22. Do they act on this feeling?

Or do they see there's something wrong and try to get to the root of it? It isn't the feeling that makes the evil, it's how one deals with it.

If I have an awful feeling once in my life--a racist thought, a homicidal desire, whatever--does that mean I should say, fuck it, I'm evil, I might as well just give up trying to be good?

[spoony]

25. Allow me to close up your wiggle room

If someone enjoys and celebrates, secretly and not as a part of any group, the beatings and murders of gay people whenever he learns of them, just totall hates gays with all his guts, and finds nothing at all wrong with that, is that person evil?

[Jed Dilligan]

28. I'd say he's a coward

But I don't believe any aspect of the strictly inner life makes a person evil. This is the main point on which I diverge from the Christian religion.

More importantly: I think you're speaking in completely hypothetical terms. Anyone who is that much of a homophobe in reality does act on it, and therefore is evil by my definition. It's an interesting idea for a fictional character, but that's about it.

[spoony]

30. Uh, yeah it's a hypothetical.

Congrats on recognising that, but that doesn't mean such a creature doesn't exist. And he does, somewhere. And he is evil for what he thinks. I know you really do want to call him evil, so you presume he'll at some point act on it and fit your own definition, but that's not what this exercise was about, was it now?

[Jed Dilligan]

37. No, I don't want to call "him" "evil"

"He" is exactly what I said, a coward and nothing more.

Your profile says you are into Lutheranism, so I understand how your theological framework would make you believe as you do. The devil getting into folks and all that. I just don't buy it. Evil is as evil does.

Here's a hypothetical for you: A kid is molested and grows up harboring a strong attraction to young boys. Only he doesn't want to perpetuate the cycle, so throughout his life he suppresses and sublimates his feelings, using his energy to try to have a positive impact on the lives of children. To me, that person isn't evil, no matter how many times he feels a strong urge to commit an evil act.

By your logic, simply wanting to molest children is evil. And there are a lot more real people who fit my hypothetical scenario than yours. So, God or whatever metaphysics you are bringing to the argument aside, I'd say my view is more relevant to the actual business of life.

[mikelewis]

130. Yes... they are evil... and they are part of a group with an agenda...

...because they are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem. If you delight in evil... you are evil... pure and simple. In fact "someone who takes joy in gay bashing and the murder of gays" is the definition of the word, 'evil'...

Honestly, you must be joking... you can't honestly say that someone who delights in the death of humans isn't in essence, evil? That's like saying Dr. Evil isn't really evil... he's just misunderstood... which I sincerely hope is your case as well.

[Jed Dilligan]

158. Well, I've had lots of "evil thoughts" in my day

So I guess I'm evil and might as well give up trying to act righteously. Thank you for freeing me from what has been a difficult task. Now I'm going to get some weapons.

:sarcasm:

[NashVegas]

62. Feelings Can Change

And, on their own, don't hurt anyone. Actions are part of a linear history. You can't take them back and undo them after the fact. Falwell hurt a lot of people in his quest for power.

[hfojvt]

42. Am I not a political operative trying to put my pet policies into law?

By your logic any fundy is going to be able to fairly say about liberals - "that we campaign for abortion rights, resulting in a policy that causes millions of dead babies every year. We are evil."

How can you be sure he was insincere about his homophobia? You also make it seem like Falwell and Reagan did what they did single handedly. That's kinda hard to do in this country, isn't it?

The good or evil in campaigning for various policies can be a tough call. However, the act of demonizing a person and expressing that hate upon hearing of their death is a little clearer. "Falwell was not a man, he was a monster, a sub-human. Some people are sub-humans. It is okay to hate sub-humans."

Clearly Falwell was one of the bad guys. After 1984 I voted against him (or his Party) most of the time, and as I became more active, opposed him in other ways. But he is dead now, and thus can no longer defend himself and is no longer working against my interests and what I feel are the country's interests. There is no point to beating a dead televangelist.

[Jed Dilligan]

45. I think the "point"

is that the people he brutalized feel liberated by his death, and some choose to express it here. To me this is healthy and good.

[hfojvt]

55. he made a few speeches, some ridiculous statements and did some

campaigning and lobbying. This is brutalizing?

I think it is sad that so many people are following what they perceive to be his message, that it is a good and noble thing to hate some people. A feeling is one thing. Posting it on the web for the world to read, is an action.

[Bluerthanblue]

73. I think his death-

has re-opened the wounds, and stirred the feelings.

And the response to this pain is to lash out-

It is instinctual. I also think that it is possible some people are using this occasion to vent in general.

I for one, feel encouraged that people are being questioned on our attitudes and stated beliefs.

I don't like seeing what my words do to others, sometimes, far too often I feel regret for words spoken in the heat of the moment- but ultimately I'm grateful for those who dare to face rejection or anger and call on me to question myself. Do you?

Anger is a very tricky emotion. We as a society don't 'do' anger well. It is a close relation of "fear" and "pain"- and something we are being deluged by these days.

A man who abused me as a child died a few years ago. His death meant that he would never be able to physically hurt me ever again. But it didn't mean I would "be whole" or "free". Or that I would not continue to struggle as a result of what I lived through. I didn't feel like 'celebrating'- I was overwhelmed by emotions that had little to do with his death, and much more to do with his actions. I was terror, shame, and sorrow all mixed together. I'm sure other people in similar situations have reacted quite differently. There is no 'right or wrong' to feelings- they just ARE-

Expressing my feelings on a message board such as this, is kind of asking for people to give feed back and to share their views isn't it? Why else would we bother to post and read ?

The feed-back being given to those "dancing" is (in my own view) every bit as healthy and good, and necessary as the 'expressions' of those who doing the dancing ? :shrug:?-


peace,
blu

[mikelewis]

131. Falwell's sincerity is probably why he has received such a passionate eulogy...

In the Bible it is written...

Mathew 12
You brood of vipers, how can you say good things when you are evil? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.
A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil.
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak.
By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

---------
If it's true that, "Vox populi, vox dei"... then Falwell's probably in a bit of trouble right about now...

[Puglover]

63. Bleh self delete. Not worth it. n/t

[mikelewis]

129. The Love of Money is the root of all evil...

At least that's what the Apostle Paul is alleged to have written....

Having or expressing a feeling does not make you evil...

Having and expressing an evil feeling does...

Having an agenda doesn't... I have an agenda for typing this and I assure you... that does not make me evil... having an evil agenda does make you evil...

It's also not what you do that that makes you evil... even in law the idea that absence of malice means no crime has been committed... and "doing nothing" does not absolve you of a crime since gross negligence implies a certain level of maliciousness...

So in answer... no... feelings aren't the root of all evil... just the evil ones...

[EFerrari]

83. So, when did confronting homophobia and bigotry become

someone ELSE'S "case", spoony?

[spoony]

156. Please do tell how

pissing on a dead man's grave does anything to confront homophobia or bigotry. How does saying you hope he's in hell or that he should have suffered more before dying do anything productive?

[LittleClarkie]

4. And some have feeling about those feelings and are expressing them

Are you telling us how to post as well? What if I don't feel like honoring and celebrating hate?

What if I prefer the Gandhi route? What if I prefer to pray for my enemies?

I'm seeing the disapproval happening both ways. But no one can control anyone around here, certainly not from our keyboards.

[Jed Dilligan]

5. I just don't believe it

Either you don't pray for them, or they aren't your enemies.

It's the appeals to "common decency" that really make me :puke:

And like I said, I ain't doing any dancing. But my sympathy is with the dancers, not with your kind.

[spoony]

8. I am not surprised the concept escapes you n/t

[Jed Dilligan]

12. Let me guess

Not a member of any oppressed groups, are you?

[spoony]

17. So many of you are so quick to make assumptions

that, clearly, try to strike at a person's standing in even OFFERING an opinion, without (curiously) ever really addressing the opinion in any depth.

And your implication that a member of an "oppressed group" cannot escape feeling hatred for their enemies, and could never pray for or show mercy towards them, is both wrong and insulting to the moral capacities of the members of such groups of people.

[Jed Dilligan]

18. Whatever

Explain to me how you have overcome being actually downtrodden, and I'll stop believing you got your high-flown ideas from books you read at some elite educational institution.

[spoony]

20. Lol, yeah book lurnin is bad!

[Jed Dilligan]

23. I'll take that as an admission that I am correct nt

[spoony]

26. Correct that colleges are bad and that people with educations

have never struggled in their lives? That people with degrees and thinking skills are all straight white men?

What exactly do you think you're right about? Because I'm sure as hell not seeing anything.

[Jed Dilligan]

29. I didn't say you are bad

Just that you are privileged enough to have no comprehension of where I'm coming from.

[spoony]

33. If by "where you're coming from"

you mean: devaluing people's opinions based solely on their education (an education I'll be paying off until I'm 40, by the way), or presuming to know enough about a nickname on the internet that you can say what their life has been like, then yes, I am totally incapable of seeing where you're coming from.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. My heart goes out to you.

You actually had to pay for your education!

sniff

:nopity:

I made a wager that someone as idealistic as you present yourself has not been through the kind of grinding, day-to-day oppression that many in our society face. I don't think less of you because of this--DU is not a contest to be well-regarded, anyway, and I'm sorry if you feel that it is. That's just immature. My point is that if you would call a person evil simply for feeling hatred, you must have led a pretty charmed life compared to many among us.

[spoony]

155. Which is an offensive assumption, not just to me, but to

anyone who tries their best not to EMBRACE feeling hatred for people. Who on earth said you should never FEEL hate? Who can go through life not feeling hate sometimes? The point is that those who gleefully embrace that hatred and make excuses for it so they can clutch to it like some dark and wicked pet are, in fact, evil, because they have chosen to make something evil a part of themselves.

But I guess all those people trying to follow the examples of Gandhi, Jesus, MLK, etc. are all priveleged white frat boys, eh? The saddest thing is that you don't really get how unbelievably stupid that notion is.

[LittleClarkie]

41. How did you afford the computer you're posting on?

Oh, oppressed one?

[Jed Dilligan]

43. Ahhh

I was wondering when it would come to this.

I "requisitioned" this particular machine from a workplace that was getting rid of it, if you must know. It's about eight years old but serves it's purpose, and at least I'm keeping it out of the landfill.

Here's where you hope I will claim to have never had money or any kind of advantage in life. I'm sorry, but I won't be making that claim. Even when I was homeless in America, I was consuming more resources than the average citizen of the world.

It did give me perspective, though.

The funny thing is I admire all the heroes you hold up as examples to try and shame me... "Ghandi" and Dr. King. The difference between you and me on this score is I believe these men felt incredible, excruciating amounts of hatred, feelings that almost no one in today's America can imagine. It was their strength to overcome those feelings and do what needed to be done, which in those cases was to lead a non-violent resistance movement.

On the other hand, if violence had been a better tactic than non-violence to remove white rule in the South or British rule in India, I would advocate it. In those cases, it would not have worked, but simply caused an even more brutal backlash.

[Bluerthanblue]

76. are you saying

that Gandhi and MLKjr intentionally lied or mis-led the people they were leading? That they asked us to follow something that they themselves believed to be impossible???

How do you "overcome" a feeling? Can you overcome your feelings if those around you are encouraging you to not only feel your feelings but to celebrate them??

I'm completely confused.

[Jed Dilligan]

88. No

I'm saying that they were men and had the feelings men feel when they are stepped on, spit on, thrown off buses, squashed every day of their lives because of how or when or to whom they were born.

Going from that place to non-violence is an achievement. Going from white-bread suburbia to non-violence is a copout.

[Bluerthanblue]

125. both men came to a place where they rose above hate

Neither man 'celebrated' the death of their 'enemy'.

It takes effort- I'll agree, but it is the best solution to the problem.

Someone brought up Anne Frank on a thread, and her comment about believing that people were really good at heart- Her voice is a beautifully poigniant example of stopping the spiral of hate and revenge.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness only light can do that- hatred cannot drive out hatred, only love can do that." MLKjr. was a 'religious man' and a teacher this world so desperately needs more of.

"The truly non-violent action is not possible unless it springs from a heart of belief that he whom you fear and regard as a robber...and you are one, and that therefore it is better that you should die
at his hands than that he, your ignorant brother, should die at yours." Mohandas Gandhi.

I don't know what you are refering to when you bring in 'white bread surburbia'- Are you sure you do?

peace,
blu

[Jed Dilligan]

127. It just seems so convenient

for a member of the ruling class to embrace non-violence as the only acceptable means of political change.

You don't have anything to be angry or hateful or violent about when the whole world caters to you from birth.

It's a mockery when people who have not had to overcome violence themselves claim to be a mouthpiece for non-violence.

[Bluerthanblue]

133. I think you

are fooling yourself on several fronts, but I could be mistaken.


"You don't have anything to be angry or hateful or violent about when the whole world caters to you from birth."

??????? :shrug:???????

I don't believe it is ever easy to embrace non-violence. Hitting back is instinctual- I believe- fighting our 'instinctual urges' isn't easy for anyone.

peace,
blu

Who are the "ruling class" people you are calling to task? I'm still confused-

[Jed Dilligan]

135. Not calling them to task at all.

I just find it extremely offensive when people who were born on top pick up the mantle of Gandhi. But oppressors have always co-opted the discourse of the oppressed, so whatever.

[Bluerthanblue]

136. I wasn't born "on top" were

you?

MLKjr wasn't 'born on top'- Gandhi wasn't 'born on top'-

Bobby Kennedy was born on top- and still he understood violence and hatred better than many-

He also addressed the Gandhi and MLKjr. "mantle" better than I could ever begin to-

This is a time of shame and sorrow. It is not a day for politics. I have saved this one opportunity to speak briefly to you about this mindless menace of violence in America which again stains our land and every one of our lives.

It is not the concern of any one race. The victims of the violence are black and white, rich and poor, young and old, famous and unknown. They are, most important of all, human beings whom other human beings loved and needed. No one – no matter where he lives or what he does – can be certain who will suffer from some senseless act of bloodshed. And yet it goes on and on.

Why? What has violence ever accomplished? What has it ever created? No martyr’s cause has ever been stilled by his assassin’s bullet.

No wrongs have ever been righted by riots and civil disorders. A sniper is only a coward, not a hero; and an uncontrolled, uncontrollable mob is only the voice of madness, not the voice of the people.

Whenever any American’s life is taken by another American unnecessarily – whether it is done in the name of the law or in the defiance of law, by one man or a gang, in cold blood or in passion, in an attack of violence or in response to violence – whenever we tear at the fabric of life which another man has painfully and clumsily woven for himself and his children, the whole nation is degraded.

"Among free men,” said Abraham Lincoln, “there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet; and those who take such appeal are sure to lose their cause and pay the costs.”

Yet we seemingly tolerate a rising level of violence that ignores our common humanity and our claims to civilization alike. We calmly accept newspaper reports of civilian slaughter in far off lands. We glorify killing on movie and television screens and call it entertainment. We make it easy for men of all shades of sanity to acquire weapons and ammunition they desire.

Too often we honor swagger and bluster and the wielders of force; too often we excuse those who are willing to build their own lives on the shattered dreams of others. Some Americans who preach nonviolence abroad fail to practice it here at home. Some who accuse others of inciting riots have by their own conduct invited them.

Some look for scapegoats, others look for conspiracies, but this much is clear; violence breeds violence, repression brings retaliation, and only a cleaning of our whole society can remove this sickness from our soul.

For there is another kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions; indifference and inaction and slow decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. This is a slow destruction of a child by hunger, and schools without books and homes without heat in the winter.

This is the breaking of a man’s spirit by denying him the chance to stand as a father and as a man among other men. And this too afflicts us all. I have not come here to propose a set of specific remedies nor is there a single set. For a broad and adequate outline we known what must be done. “When you teach a man to hate and fear his brother, when you teach that he is a lesser man because of his color or his beliefs or the policies he pursues, when you teach that those who differ from you threaten your freedom or your job or your family, then you also learn to confront others not as fellow citizens but as enemies – to be met not with cooperation but with conquest, to be subjugated and mastered.

We learn, at the last, to look at our bothers as aliens, men with whom we share a city, but not a community, men bound to us in common dwelling, but not in common effort. We learn to share only a common fear – only a common desire to retreat from each other – only a common impulse to meet disagreement with force. For all this there are no final answers.

Yet we know what we must do. It is to achieve true justice among our fellow citizens. The question is now what programs we should seek to enact. The question is whether we can find in our own midst and in our own hearts that leadership of human purpose that will recognize the terrible truths of our existence.

We must admit the vanity of our false distinctions among men and learn to find our own advancement in the search for the advancement of all. We must admit in ourselves that our own children’s future cannot be built on the misfortunes of others. We must recognize that this short life can neither be ennobled or enriched by hatred or revenge.

Our lives on this planet are too short and the work to be done too great to let this spirit flourish any longer in our land. Of course we cannot vanish it with a program, nor with a resolution.

But we can perhaps remember – even if only for a time – that those who live with us are our brothers, that they share with us the same short movement of life, that they seek – as we do – nothing but the chance to live out their lives in purpose and happiness, winning what satisfaction and fulfillment they can.

Surely this bond of common faith, this bond of common goal, can begin to teach us something. Surely we can learn, at least, to look at those around us as fellow men and surely we can begin to work a little harder to bind up the wounds among us and to become in our hearts brothers and countrymen once again.
Robert F. Kennedy April 5, 1968

I'm not going to keep going on- I sincerly desire peace- for everyone.
blu

[Jed Dilligan]

141. Give me any tiny indication

that the rich and powerful in this country are more to me than "men with whom we share a city, but not a community, men bound to us in common dwelling, but not in common effort." Caveat: anything vaguely religious or spiritual will not move me in the slightest.

Rich and poor are a contradiction that non-violent action has failed to resolve. I will celebrate, not weep, on the day when the violence the rich have visited upon the poor comes back to them.

[Bluerthanblue]

142. sorry Jed-

I'm done-
All I'm succeeding in doing here is keeping this thing going.

I could cite you several people who are wealthy and hence powerful- but who haven't forgotten their humanity.- it wouldn't change anything.

call me a quitter, say what-ever you like- that is your privilege.

this world is growing darker by the day- we all have more valuable things to do with the time we have left to us.

peace,
blu

[Puglover]

66. Of course you are correct.

Check out any of his posts

[Louis C. Phurye]

64. Indeed spoony, the grave dancers should listen to what Anne Frank had to say about it.

It's really a wonder that I haven't dropped all my ideals, because they seem so absurd and impossible to carry out. Yet I keep them, because in spite of everything I still believe that people are really good at heart.
-Anne Frank


I simply can't build my hopes on a foundation of confusion, misery and death... I think... peace and tranquillity will return again.
-Anne Frank

[Puglover]

67. But the difference here is

Anne Frank wasn't a puffed up proselytizing ass.

[Louis C. Phurye]

69. Huh?

Why are you comparing Anne Frank to Jerry Falwell?

[Puglover]

74. I wasn't comparing her to Jerry Falwell

:eyes:

[mondo joe]

82. Anne Frank, FYI, died as a result of her oppressors. I'd rather live and dance than

pray and die at their hands. Thanks.

[spoony]

157. Yeah but she was a spoiled straight white college boy.

Didn't you know? Those are the only people who can avoid cannibalistic displays of grave dancing bile. :sarcasm:

There's little use arguing with Jed. He literally admitted wanting all rich people, and we can only guess how many other types of enemies, to meet violent ends.

[LittleClarkie]

13. I'm sorry that appeals to common decency give you a tummy ache

So, what is my "kind" anyway?

[Jed Dilligan]

15. People who claim the moral high ground

over those whose suffering they cannot begin to understand and who obviously lack the compassion they preach.

[LittleClarkie]

31. So you would cut off discussion by claiming that those who express glee

must in some way be oppressed, and that makes it all better?

How can you tell if they're oppressed? Do they type differently?

[Jed Dilligan]

40. Cut off discussion? Hardly.

However, if you tell people they are "just as evil as Falwell" for feeling joy at his passing, there is a good case that you're violating DU rules. No rule is violated by the other party.

Also, I don't think that all those who express glee are members of the groups Falwell targeted. It is in fact possible for members of other groups to feel real solidarity and compassion for these people, to the point that they share their feelings.

[Madspirit]

47. "People who claim the moral high ground over those whose suffering they cannot begin to understand"

Thank-you!
Lee

[spoony]

27. Well, I dunno, do you like reading books without pictures?

'Cause Jed don't like it when we do that!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hfojvt]

48. are there two or three types of enemies?

1) Person A hates person B and wants to hurt him/her
2) Person B hates person A and wants to hurt him/her
3) the hatred is mutual 1) and 2) combined

Let's say my enemy is a rightwing shill. That would be option 3, although they don't know me and the hurt is kinda metaphysical. Several options present themselves.

1) Rush Limbaugh option. I defeat him and elect a Democratic President. He keeps on getting paid millions to stir up hate and tell lies. In 1994, his side wins, but loses some in 1996 and 1998. Wins again in 2000, 2002, 2004, and loses in 2006.

2) Jerry Falwell option. My enemy dies. Yet in this scenario still is not defeated because Republicans could still win in 2008.

3) David Brock or Arianna option. My enemy sees the light and switches sides.

Our theatrical history includes lots of stories where a parent is abusive. I am thinking particularly of the play "Agnes of God". The psychologist does roleplay until the abused child shouts "I hate you! and wish you were dead!" Maybe that is a liberating wish, but it is not the true wish. Really the child loves their parent and wishes that the parent loved them back and/or showed that love in a positive, healthy way.

"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!" Ezekiel 33: 11

Thus, it is better to pray for your enemies. That they become friends. Maybe the question is whether I hate them, or hate the evil that they do.

[Jed Dilligan]

51. Well, I know my prayer is worthless in this scenario

because the gods I believe in don't give a flying shit about humanity. The only thing my people take to the grave is true friendship, and I doubt Falwell (or anyone as powerful as him, for that matter) had much of that in life.

But I appreciate your understanding that the joy (even if it is false) is a moment of liberation, and not tangible evidence of evil. In that I think you fundamentally agree with me.

[hfojvt]

58. I meant it was liberating for Agnes

I doubt if the relationship between an American citizen and a bloviating televangelist is quite the equivalent of the relationship between abused child and abusive parent.

[NashVegas]

65. Your Logic

" 1) Person A hates person B and wants to hurt him/her
2) Person B hates person A and wants to hurt him/her
3) the hatred is mutual 1) and 2) combined"


It's not really like that when we're dealing with the political arena of the last 15 years. It's more like:

1) Person B hates the political power of person A and wants to reduce/eliminate his/her power
2) Person C hates person B's expression and wants to reduce/eliminate him/her expression

3) Person B perceives person C's attempts to squelch them and engages directly against person C

4) the hatred is mutual 1) and 2) combined

The interesting thing is, by engaging against C, B becomes distracted.

Just sayin' ...

[REP]

21. Are You Praying for the OP?

If not - why not? Why waste time telling him that he's wrong when you could be praying for him? I don't understand.

[Jed Dilligan]

24. I'm afraid this brand of compassion

is reserved for the Falwells of the world.

[LittleClarkie]

34. Are you posting from the grave?

That's impressive if you are.

I mean, if you're dead and all, I can pray for you family too.

[REP]

38. The Grave's a Fine and Private Place, But None I Think Do There Embrace

The dead can not observe one's finer morals as well as the living can, isn't that so?

[Puglover]

68. Wow give it a rest.

Isn't there an Edwards thread you can go spam?

[LittleClarkie]

32. This is a discussion board. Are we to agree always?

Don't most of us spend our time here disagreeing with folks?

And I wasn't aware the OP was an enemy or otherwise needed prayer. If he'd like to make a prayer request though, I'm open.

[REP]

36. Nothing Was Said About Agreement

You have a disagreement with this poster, which is turning ugly ("tummy ache" "book lurnin'" and other condescending terms have been used). It is unlikely that you will get him to agree with you that feelings = actions. Have you considered praying that he might see things your way rather than using verbal violence?

[smalll]

49. Yes, but people like the OP also have feelings about that feeling about those feelings

and can express them as well. OK? I'm good enough, and smart enough, and doggone it, people like me! ;)

[hfojvt]

9. "To be desperately in earnest is the condition of a full life.

Earnest people always want to make others see the universe from their angle and the world is richer and more alive because of them, if only their efforts are not underhand." Vida Scudder

My purpose at DU is to discuss things with activists who are trying to take back our country from the neocons first, and the radical right second. Things like changing hearts and minds of registered voters, getting more of the working class to vote, and winning elections.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/35

[underseasurveyor]

10. That looks like understanding and acceptance

and it feels like it too :loveya: Thanks, you get it:thumbsup:

[Jed Dilligan]

46. So glad you're here

I posted this more for you than for them... Though I must say it's been fun duking it out in this thread.

[underseasurveyor]

59. I noticed

that some people think that everything and anything said is all about them and I wonder why do they take everything so personally. Or perhaps they just enjoy arguing instead of reading carefully and then considering.
I wished it weren't so late last night when this started as I was so tired but I had to throw in my two cents in agreement and to thank you for your thoughtfulness and understanding.

As I said, you get it. I wish more would:hi:

[Bronyraurus]

44. Yes. n/t

[Madspirit]

50. k&r

Also, notice how mean and nasty the holier-than-thou finger-waggers are. That part cracks me up. I actually showed some of those posts to my shrink. She cracked up too. "THEY are the high-roaders with all that spewing bile at true victims?" That is actually what she said. They remind me of the RW "Family Values" folks...preaching about other people's nasty behavior while totally lacking in depth or compassion or empathy, etc.

Thanks for your post.
Lee

[ninkasi]

52. I'm probably wading into waters

over my head, but here goes. Falwell was a vicious, totally evil hate monger; I am a straight white woman, but I don't have to be a member of one of the groups he so gleefully deionized to be glad that he will not preach his hate and intolerance any longer.

He did more to set back Christianity than anybody else I can think of. For someone who truly believes in the teachings of Jesus, he completely corrupted Christ's message. He was a hateful, vicious man, who had no qualms about causing others pain to further his own agenda, which was enriching himself.

Even in the land of Oz, Dorothy and the Munchkins were able to celebrate the death of the witch..."Ding, dong, the witch is dead, the wicked witch is dead".... Are we to be held to a different standard because the man claimed to be a Christian?

[Jed Dilligan]

53. Thank you!

And don't let people with a few college classes in philosophy convince you to stop shooting straight. It's all sophistry, and if they aren't actually trolls I suspect their main purpose is to show their debating skills and erudition.

One quibble, as a woman you are very much one of those Falwell demonized.

Ding-dong the witch is dead: Perfect analogy for this moment!

[Madspirit]

60. Thank-you!...n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Jed I have seen probably more suffering than

you can imagine

I have taken care of people who DO HAVE A REASON TO HATE

Hell I have also taken my life in my hands to do my job

Oh and before you say it, I come from a group that had my family loose 50 people due to the actions of one Adolph Hitler

I can see where Mr Falwell could be compared with a Hitler, but hardly with the resources or reach... or for that matter the "success."

His ideas have done great damage to this Republic

but just like I cannot bring myself to hate Mr Adolph Hitler, and some might say I would be justified...

I cannot bring myself to hate or "dance on the grave" of Mr Falwell

Hate the message, absolutely

But my father, a man who lost his mother, and two aunts the day the war started in Europe, and later on aunts and uncles galore once told me... hate is corrosive

You say that Gandhi and MLK were filled with hate... no they were not... perhaps you should study their message

They knew this little secret, hate is corrosive

You can choose to applaud those who hate.

I choose to part company

Oh and perhaps we can compare notes as to hated sub groups. My people if you must pry, have been a favorite target of hate, and murder over the last five thousand years, yep going all the way back to the greeks.

One thing persecuted people learn to do is to celebrate life in the good times, and be ready to run at a moments notice.

Oh and yes, I know about the persecution that gays have had over history... and I will tell you the same thing I already told somebody else

Instead of celebrating your hate, you should be ready to celebrate the victory... your older brethren remember a time when admiting you were gay would mean loss of jobs et al. today the younger generation goes, gay, so what? Civil Unions (though I am all for civil marriage for all regardless of orientation, if you need to search what that means... do a goggle search) is now expanding, slowly, but it is. And you can come out on a website without fear.

Even ten years ago this was not possible

I'd say, as hate filled as the so called moral majority leader was, he failed. Celebrate that.

[Bluerthanblue]

140. .... this..

....

:hug: :grouphug: :hug:

blu

[iverglas]

149. a false little dichotomy

You can choose to applaud those who hate.
I choose to part company

Me, I choose to stand with them. I think that would actually be the opposite of parting company with them.

And of course there's the usual and constant equivocation: "those who hate".

As if there were some equivalence between people who hate evil and the people who do it, and people who hate because they are evil and want to hurt people who have done nothing evil and nothing hurtful.

REP gave us a little Andrew Marvell; let me offer a little Richard Lovelace:

I could not love thee, dear, so much,
Loved I not honour more.

I don't think one can love good if one does not hate evil.

I don't really trust anyone who claims to love the good and not hate the evil, and the people who do them. We love people for doing good; why would we not hate people for doing evil?

Without the gut reaction to good and evil -- the emotions so much is being said about here -- the one doesn't get fought for and the other doesn't get fought against.

[JVS]

56. If you spew vile hatred, be prepared to be called on it by those upset by it.

and if you're Falwell, you don't have to notice because you're dead, and if you're a DUer you have to live with people taking offense

[Neoma]

57. Wait! Jerry Falwell is dead!?

Hallelujah!

I don't see why people are getting so uptight over celebrating over a persons death. He surely wasn't much to celebrate when he was alive, at least we're doing that much.

[Madspirit]

70. Also, make note

Also, notice how mean and nasty the holier-than-thou finger-waggers are. That part cracks me up. It's some of the meanest people on this site. I actually showed some of those posts to my shrink. She cracked up too. "THEY are the high-roaders with all that spewing bile at true victims?" That is actually what she said.

They remind me of the RW "Family Values" folks...preaching about other people's nasty behavior while totally lacking in depth or compassion or empathy, etc.

Lee

[Neoma]

75. I don't know them well enough.

I'm rather new to the general discussion flame wars.

[dogday]

61. I don't even have control in my own life

how am I to control how people feel?

[RevCheesehead]

71. No, but I'm willing to learn.

Got any pointers?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

72. Wishing That Our Community As A Whole Had Put Forth A More Respectable Reaction Does Not Equate To

telling people how to feel. People can feel however they want and are free to express that obviously. But I think many of the other side of the issue here were more concerned with or hopeful that such expression be a bit more tasteful and mature as opposed to giving the impression of hateful grave dancing children.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. Your Reply Makes Little To Zero Sense. Why Are You So Angry?

I also sense a tone of prejudice coming from you. That's pretty sad to see on here.

Furthermore, nowhere in my post is there a claim or premise of my being an authority on respectability. It is a general phrase and stated in a perfectly acceptable fashion.

When you choose to respond without the ad hominem attacks and prejudice maybe we can then have an actually conversation. Bye! :hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

91. I am not angry at all.

In fact, I am amused. You come on here disrespecting everyone and then wail about the lack of "respectability."

The world has changed. Too bad you can't go back! :hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

92. You Really Could Use Better Ability To Respond To Context Rather Than Your Personal Attacks.

As amusing as I find their simple and narrow nature, it would be far more productive to actually discuss context and premise rather than always making it personal. Are you capable of addressing the context of my initial reply and offering rebuttal towards it if you disagree with it? Or do you only have the ad hominem attacks in your arsenal. Cause the way I see it, your OP is thoroughly misguided for reasons I've explained. If you can't offer rebuttal towards that assertion due to simple recognition that I was right and the OP is flawed, thereby only being able to attack me personally in response, then I guess I can accept that. :hi:

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. ROFLMAO!!!!! Logic And Context Is Oppressive And Offensive To You? Oh That's RICH!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I see you could once again only return with your personal attack. You still haven't addressed context. What was 'ridiculous' about my initial post's premise? Are you capable of answering that?

[Jed Dilligan]

99. I already explained what was ridiculous.

The claim that you can judge what is "respectable" was ridiculous, and your whole argument hinges on it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

100. You Did? That's It? That Doesn't Address The Premise At All! LOL

My initial post has NOTHING to do with my capability to judge or not judge 'respectability', so my whole argument in fact has NOTHING to do with that LOL

Reread it again pal. Maybe you'll have something better to throw back at it than this ad hominem silliness. :hi:

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

102. Didn't Think Ya Could. Oh Well. See Ya!

:hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

103. I promise to respond without ad hominem,

when you don't open with it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

104. Then Either Live Up To Your Promise Or Point Out The Ad Hominem In My Initial Reply.

Either that, or edit your above reply based on it being false on its face. Thanks. :hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

105. "hateful grave dancing children"

What do you call that?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

106. I Call That A Descriptive Term Of What Many Were Engaging In. Please Look Up The Definition Of What

an ad hominem attack is please, so that you don't embarrass yourself in the future. :hi:

[Moochy]

107. Haven't you "obtained pure objectivity" yet?

Embarrasing sub-thread deleted ... check.

Mods never responding to my inquries about the sub-thread's disappearance? check.

Flamed out the thread til it locked?... check.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

109. Oh You And Your Attacks. So Cute And Predictable. What Are You Even Talking About?

So silly. Just so so silly. :rofl:

[Name removed]

110. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moochy]

145. Words that need to be said

"But the difference between you and I is that I have the higher ability to achieve pure objectivity: I can put thoughts within the perspective of someone else and reason as they reason." OperationMindCrime

I wish I had super powers like OMC!

Notice more deleted sub-threads.. how amazing...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

146. Let It Go Dude. You're Obsessing.

I'm not even sure what in the world you are so emotionally invested in right now, to keep replying with these sorts of things. Let it go bro. Let it go.

[Moochy]

147. I just wanted a record someplace

of these silly comments... but they keep vanishing! :wtf:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

148. If You'd Like I Can Print Them Up Nice And Laminate Them For You. When's Your Birthday?

I've never seen the likes here of such obsession. You seem completely preoccupied with that comment and purpose to like capture it forever as if there is something so wrong with it. Personally, I can't figure out your obsession with it for the life of me. It's a pretty straightforward comment and I stand behind it. You act as if I'm supposed to be embarrassed by it and keep posting it as if it's an embarrassment to me to do so. Hell, you even put it in your sig line in a manner of which I'd expect a 5 yr old tantrum throwing child to do. You don't find that just a tad inappropriate or obsessed? But guess what; it isn't an embarrassment to me whatsoever. If you'd ever like offline for me to explain the concept of the quote to you I'm more than willing to do so. It's really not all that 'superhero' of a comment whatsoever.

But regardless of all that, your behavior is completely inappropriate and unwarranted in my opinion. You should really let it go.

This is my last response to you.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

111. You Have No Idea What An Ad Hominem Attack Is, Do You.

Maybe you should learn it prior to using it in the future.

That is all. Bye now! :hi:

[Jed Dilligan]

112. I know precisely what it is

I can decline homo, hominis for you right now if you're questioning my knowledge of Latin.

Your interpretation of my critique as ad hominem shows your lack of knowledge of the critical discourse of the past forty years. It is your assumption of your own objectivity, and the universal relevance of your reactions to things, that I have attacked. Perhaps these things are so intrinsic to your identity that you feel they are equal to you as a person, but they are not.

Sorry, but the masculinist, positivist claim to neutrality has been moot for a long time now. You should take your debating skills back to the 1950s.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

114. You Obviously Don't Know What One Is Based On Your Responses.

You 'PROMISED' to respond in other than ad hominem when I didn't start with one. I challenged you to point out where it was. You only were able to supply an accurate descriptive term from my post that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do even remotely to an ad hominem type premise. Since that's all you could provide, and since you didn't edit your post and your false promise still stands, than I could only conclude that you have not an iota of an understanding of what incorporates an ad hominem attack. So do you care to try again in pointing one out in my initial post or edit your false promise in a subsequent reply? Thanks. :hi:

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

118. One Who Is Defeated With Intellect And Logic Can Only Then Resort To Such Empty Tactics.

Since you have failed to engage in this conversation in any legitimate manner for quite some time now, see ya! :hi:

[Scout]

122. don't worry Jed

OMC is the only poster I've seen so far who thinks OMC's posts are so full of perfect logic.

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moochy]

126. Agreed

:grouphug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

124. Yeah, Cause Like That's All People Talk About.

So it would only be reasonable to think you're gonna see such things all the time, since the sole purpose of this board is to discuss whether or not my posts are logical. :rofl:

Do you not realize how silly you all come off that engage in such childish taunting? Obviously not, but lord knows there's been many a PM laugh LOL

I'll tell ya what though. Since you seem so knowledgeable on what is logical, is it too much to assume that you are capable of forming logic on your own, and therefore have the ability to refute my posts or my logic without the childish attacks? If so, please feel free to. I'd love to see you step up and show just how my posts are illogical. Then maybe we could have a real debate rather than this schoolyard bullshit. :hi:

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jed Dilligan]

113. chirp chirp chirp

:hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

115. Awwwww, That False Cockiness Is So Adorable.

I found it so cute how you replied as if you 'got me' somehow since I didn't reply immediately, as if I was stumped or something, when I in fact was just picking up my children from daycare. So so silly you are!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Jed Dilligan]

117. Hmmm, what am I supposed to think, then?

When your response time suddenly goes from ten seconds to thirty minutes, as soon I put forward an argument you OBVIOUSLY CAN'T REBUT, am I to assume that nature called you? Or that you got a phone call from one of your many admirers?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

119. I Dunno, Maybe That The World Doesn't Revolve Around You?

:rofl:

And I just LOVE your 'obviously can't rebut' part, when it was thoroughly rebutted.

This is getting way too silly and childish. Nighty nite! :hi:

[mudesi]

144. You enjoy this, don't you?

To each his own, I guess...

[CBGLuthier]

77. Well, I FEEL

that expressing glee and condemning to hell someone who died that was not a murderer or child rapist IS evil.

And I can express that here right? So please honor and celebrate this, OK.

[Jed Dilligan]

85. Your belief that Falwell was neither a murderer,

nor at least a facilitator of child rape, is fascinating and revealing.

Also, the getting-behind-the-death-penalty-as-it-now-stands subtext in your post is fascinating and revealing.

[Madspirit]

93. hahahahhaha

"not a murderer"....my ASS. Here is EXACTLY what he promoted. You hate us as much? No actual Falwells were hurt in the making of these threads. You are shameful. Take your treacle piety and sanctimony and put it where there is no sun:

Matthew Shepard
On October 6, 1998, 21-year-old college student Matthew Shepard was tied to a fence in Laramie, Wyoming, pistol-whipped, then left for dead in the freezing night. He died six days later.

Brandon Teena
Born Teena Brandon and raised as a girl, he was living as a man known as Brandon Teena in Falls City, Nebraska, when he was murdered at age 21. In December of 1993, two men who discovered his gender raped him. His attackers later shot and killed him after learning Brandon had reported the rape and was to help police in the investigation.

Danny Overstreet
On September 22, 2000, a man looking to "waste some faggots" entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia and opened fire, killing Danny Overstreet, and injuring 6 others.

JR Warren
On the fourth of July, 2000, JR Warren, 26, who was black and gay, was beaten to death by three men in West Virginia, then run over by a car to make it look like a hit and run.

PFC Barry Winchell
Pfc. Barry Winchell, 21, was beaten to death by fellow servicemembers while sleeping in his cot on July 5, 1999 at Fort Campbell, Ky. His Army colleagues thought (correctly) that he was gay, so they killed him.

Billy Jack Gaither
Billy Jack Gaither, 39, of Sylacauga, Alabama was bludgeoned to death by two men on Feb. 19, 1999, then set on fire with automobile tires because he was gay.

Bill Clayton
On May 8, 1995, Bill Clayton, 17, committed suicide after having been brutally assaulted for being bisexual.

Tyra Hunter
On August 7, 1995, Tyra Hunter died after DC fire department emergency medical technicians called her epithets, backed away, and refused to render treatment on discovering that she was a transgendered woman.


(Courtesy of OUT magazine.)

Through 1994

ALABAMA
James Primus, 35- murdered, set on fire in his car, 21 June 1993

ARIZONA
Joseph Charles Holleran- beaten, assaulted, 24 October 1992, died May 1994
Duane Linsley- shot, 16 January 1994
Robert Haines- shot execution-style, 4 April 1994
Michael Despain, 24- burned, 6 June 1994
Thomas Frazee, 28- shot, 12 December 1994

ARKANSAS
Chris Miller, 23- stabbed and beaten, 30 July 1993
Ronnie Hugh Smith, 58- bludgeoned, found 25 February 1994

CALIFORNIA
John Garfield- shot, 30 May 1992
Cameron(Tina) Tanner- fall 1992
Mauricio Bassa- murdered, 22 May 1993
Keith Michael Ogden, 31- beaten, 7 July 1993
John Duncan O'Friel, 46- beaten, 8 July 1993
Father Ronald Maupin- multiple stab wounds, August 1993
James Graves- bludgeoned, 22 December 1993
Tony Ray- shot, 24 March 1994
Tommy Wenger, 24- multiple stab wounds, dismembered, 28 March 1994
Therman Brown, 50- gunshot wounds, 4 July 1994
Jon Simmons- gunshot to the head, 17 October 1994

COLORADO
James Holman, 36- multiple stab wounds, 13 February 1992
David Stewart- stabbed, 2 June 1992
Benjamin Zesch, 61- multiple stab wounds, 16 July 1992
*Robert Ferrell, 57- multiple stab wounds 15 September 1992
*Anthony carr, 33- stabbed, 26 December 1992
Randy Gonzales, 26- multiple stab wounds, 22 January 1993
Steven R. Heyman, 47- bludgeoned, 2 November 1993
*Bruce Hutchinson, 31- raped, bludgeoned 8 May 1994
*Poul Anderson, 54- gunshot to the head, found 23 May 1994

CONNECTICUT
James Maile, 25- bludgeoned, 10 December 1993

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA (Metro Area)

Sanford "Sam" Swift, 31- puncture wound to the head, 11 June 1992
Jack Cowles, 74- stabbed and bludgeoned, 21 December 1992
Kenneth Love, 42- head caved in, 21 December 1992
Ana Maria Rosales, 24- shot in the face, 7 January 1993
Alan Haskell, 30- strangled, 3 February 1993
Ricky Godbolt, 33- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993
Rogers Donahue, 25- bound, gagged, and stabbed, 16 September 1993
Eric Moore, 22- shot at point-blank range, body hung from a hook, 3 January 1993
Charles Logan, 47- multiple gunshot wounds, 8 January 1994
Paul McClure, 47- strangled, 5 February 1994
Frank W. White, 56- multiple gunshot wounds, 18 March 1994
*David A. Jarman, 38- strangled, 4 April 1994
Andrew Rowe, 53- multiple stab wounds, found 9 May 1994
Marvin Greenwell, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 10 May 1994
Stuart Jerome Moses, 33- multiple gunshot wounds, 17 May 1994
Shelton Thigpen, 74- strangled, found 23 June 1994

FLORIDA
James Flaherty, 52- stabbed, bludgeoned, and strangled, 14 February 1993
Michael Cooper,- multiple gunshot wounds, 11 March 1993
Craig Duncan, 20s- stabbed, March 1994
*Albert Alcie Morris, 37- bludgeoned and shot, 19 May 1994
*Walter Jammell Hinton, 43- murdered, 20 November 1994
*John Hardy Roberts, 59- murdered, 15 March 1994

GEORGIA
*Unidentified male transvestite, shot, December 1992
Elizabeth Kelle Davidson, 25- shot, 14 January 1993
Milton Bradley, 72- strangled and beaten, 5 May 1994
*Unidentified gay man- killed by serial killer Gary Ray Bowles, May 1994

ILLINOIS
Robert Harris- bludgeoned, 2 February 1993
Dennis Johnson- throat slit, 31 October 1993
Unidentified gay man, 70s- beaten, December 1993
Unidentified transvestite- multiple stab wounds, 18 December 1993
Unidentified male prostitute- multiple stab wounds, 31 December 1993
William Lemke- multiple stab wounds, 9 April 1994
Unidentified gay man- multiple stab wounds, 22 April 1994

INDIANA
Leta Dains- stabbed, 8 November 1992
Pamela Agee- stabbed, 8 November 1992
*Unidentified gay man, 22- murdered, 31 May 1993
*Unidentified gay man, 50- gunshot wound, June 1994

KANSAS
Unidentified gay man, 20s- bludgeoned, found 29 October 1994

KENTUCKY
Jack Gilman- shot in the head, 9 May 1993

LOUISIANA
Unidentified gay man, 51- beaten, 24 April 1993
Joe Balogg, 22- straight man stabbed by five men shouting antigay epithets, 12 November 1993

MARYLAND
Joey H. Jordan, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 6 July 1992
Marvin Johnson, 29- multiple stab wounds, 2 January 1994

MASSACHUSETTS
Thomas Carey, 39- gunshot wounds, 14 May 1993

MICHIGAN
Susan Pittman, 56- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992
Christine Puckett, 39- shot at point-blank range by neighbor, May 1992
Bruce Andrews, 28- multiple stab wounds, October 1992
Jeffrey Dansby- stabbed, March 1993
David Converse, 51- stabbed, 16 July 1994
Gary Rocus, 41- beaten and strangled, November 1994
MINNESOTA

Howard Liebhaber, 34- beaten and stabbed, 25 October 1992
Terry Oliver, 27- beaten and strangled, found 29 January 1993
Duane Swalve, 23- beaten and strangled, 29 April 1993
Craig Green, 34- beaten, 26 May 1993
Johnnie Williams, 48- beaten and strangled, 15 July 1994
Steven Fox, 25- bludgeoned, neck broken, 20 July 1994

MISSISSIPPI
Robert Walters, 34- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994
Joseph Shoemake, 24- gunshot wound to the head, 8 October 1994
Stanley King, 24- shot, 15 December 1994

MISSOURI
William Childs, 27- beaten, stabbed, throat slit, 22 April 1993
Craig Johnson, 23- gunshot wound to the head, 27 June 1993

NEBRASKA
Brandon Teena, 21- execution-style shooting, 31 December 1993

NEVADA
William Metz- multiple stab wounds, 8 July 1994
Anton Walker, 54- bludgeoned, induced heart attack, August 1994

NEW JERSEY
James Septimphelter- strangeled, 5 March 1994
Harold Draper, 29- multiple stab wounds, 30 May 1992
*Thomas Mulcahey, 57- dismembered, 13 July 1992

NEW YORK
Julio Prado, 39- multiple stab wounds, 11 January 1992
Jesus Santiago, 24- beaten, 2 February 1992
Bernie Walsh, 28- bludgeoned and stabbed, 12 April 1992
Marsha P. Johnson (Malcom Michaels, Jr.), 46- drowned, 6 July 1992
Victor Bones, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 27 July 1992
Vanathan Pleasant, III, 21- multiple gunshot wounds to the head, 19 July 1992
Brian Burke, 36- bludgeoned, found 25 October 1992
David Schwartz, 55- multiple stab wounds, found 9 November 1992
Salvatore Caggiano, 50s- strangled and burned, 26 December 1992
Stephan "Stephanie" Chapman, 20- gunshot wound to the head, December 1992
Lawrence Andrews, 44- strangled and stabbed, 11 March 1993
George "Joe" Ortiz, 40- multiple stab wounds, bludgeoned, 27 March 1993
Roosevelt "Terry" Lewis, 30s- strangled and burned, found 3 April 1993
Charles Lee- multiple stab wounds, 17 April 1993
*Anthony Marrero, 44- stabbed and dismembered, 16 May 1993
Milton Setzer, 60- throat slit, 29 June 1993
Eric Price, 25- throat slit, 29 June 1993
Dwight Greene, 44- bludgeoned, 8 July 1993
James Seward, 42- multiple stab wounds, 28 July 1993
*Michael Sakara, 56- dismembered, 31 July 1993
Jimmy Hawkins, 50- multiple stab wounds, found 15 August 1993
Mervin Wallace, mid 50s- strangled, found 30 September 1993
Jeannie Fenmore, 48- gunshot wound to the head, 23 December 1993
Pauline Campbell, 34- multiple stab wounds, 23 February 1994
Bernard Friedman, 56- multiple stab wounds, 20 April 1994
John Stella, 33- gunshot wounds, 1 May 1994
Javier Munsuri, 40- gunshot wound to the head, found 28 May 1994
Richard Whitesell, 32- multiple stab wounds, 13 June 1994
Martin Parian, 20s- gunshot wound to the head, 13 July 1994
Nelson Rawlins, 48- stabbed, found 30 July 1994
*Benjamin Rosario, 45- dismembered, 3 August 1994
Robert Kase, 44- 16 October 1994

NORTH CAROLINA
Carlos Stoner, 33- stabbed and beaten, 27 May 1992
Gerald Taylor, 66- multiple stab wounds, 20 July 1992
James Buchanan, 52- gunshot wound to the head, burned, 2 October 1994
Jerry Lee Dowdy, 50- bludgeoned, 2 October 1994



OHIO
Unidentified gay man- gunshot wounds, 13 October 1992
George S.- bludgeoned, mutilated, 10 January 1993
Eric Farrow (a.k.a. Ashley-Ann Summers)- gunshot wounds, found 20 November 1993

OKLAHOMA
Unidentified gay man, shot, March 1993

OREGON
Hattie Mae Cohens, 25- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992
Brian Mock, 45- smoke inhalation due to firebombing, 26 September 1992

PENNSYLVANIA
Robert Hagan- throat slashed, found 9 August 1993
Paul Steekman, 47- beaten, 3 April 1994
Robert Harris- strangled, 5 October 1994

RHODE ISLAND
Roger Oliver, 23- beaten, near-decapitation 2 May 1994

SOUTH CAROLINA
Andre Jones, 33- bludgeoned, run over by car, 23 July 1994

TENNESSEE
Unidentified gay man- bludgeoned, 21 July 1994

TEXAS
Jose Rubio- multiple stab wounds, 1 July 1992
*Leopoldo "Paul" Quintanilla, 29- multiple stab wounds, throat and genitals cut, 23 June 1993
Nicholas West, 23- multiple gunshot wounds, 30 November 1993
*Larry Leggett- multiple stab wounds, 25 January 1994
*Joe Trevino, strangled and bludgeoned, 3 March 1994
Michael Benishek- bludgeoned and throat slit, January 1994
Tommy Musick, 48- multiple gunshot wounds, Feubruary 1994
John Anthony Burwell, 26- multiple gunshot wounds, 2 April 1994
Michael Burzinski, 29- gunshot wound to the head, 30 July 1994
Larry David Allen- multiple stab wounds, 18 August 1994

UTAH
Doug Koehler, 31- gunshot wound to the head, 15 August 1993

VIRGINIA
*Unidentified gay man, 27- strangled, 28 June 1993
*Unidentified gay man, 24- strangled, 3 September 1993
Gary Watts, 34- multiple gunshot wounds, 10 June 1994
*Henry Weatherford Jr., 50- shot, 13 June 1994
*Garland LeRoy Taylor, 24- strangled, 17 September 1994
Harold Coon- beaten and stabbed, 17 December 1994

WASHINGTON
Bradley Wantdler- multiple stab wounds, 20 June 1993

WYOMING
Roger Melner, 60s- bludgeoned, fall 1994


* Murder committed or suspected to have been committed by an antigay serial killer.



Lee

[Madspirit]

98. Hitler

I don't think Hitler ever actually killed anyone with his own widdle hands either. He GOT others to kill for him. Same with Manson, just fyi and another fyi...I can use Hitler as an example. THEY STUCK US IN OVENS TOO.
Lee

[Balbus]

78. No, more to point out the hypocrisy of what people are feelling.

[Jed Dilligan]

86. Feelings are not hypocritical.

Feeling one way and acting another is hypocritical.

Feeling joy at Falwell's death and then hiding it and claiming the "high road" would be hypocritical.

[Duncan Grant]

79. I can have empathy for people, even when I may not agree with them. Great post, Jed!

I'm not going to vilify you for your compassion and empathy. This is a great post, once of the most insightful I've seen on this whole Falwell fallout.

Your observation, "He spread hatred, not because he felt it in his heart, but as a means to an end. And you can't pin THAT on any of the "dancers" here" is spot on. Of course, a person has to have some capacity to feel empathy in order to see that.

There's not much more I could add, you've expressed it much more eloquently than I ever could. I will say it's too bad Falwell didn't hold the values you do -- we'd all be a lot better off.

As someone else mentioned up thread - you really get it. Thank-you. :thumbsup: :pals:

[chknltl]

80. Why Yes I am as a matter of fact....

but my response has little to do with the rest of the OP's post. I want to sew healthy fear and hate and disgust among my fellow DUers and have it aimed at the bfee. Not too hard a task.
I want to sew courage and hope among my fellow DUers... Not an easy task at all...especially with those repuke think-tankers lurking among us!

The number one thorn in the side of the bfee, is the spread of information, (information they have little control over), in the blogs and forums. This particular thorn has caused them more discomfort than any I'd say. After all "Democracy requires an enlightened electorate" and the bfee has been doing what it can to "un-enlighten" that public with it's brand of "facts" spread through the msm. Media Matters for one has it's hands full keeping up with fact checking and debunking.

So what is the bfee to do? Well one thing is to employ the services of their think tanks to sneak in a few who can use their intellect to squash fires best they can. They are very tough in an argument or debate...they would likely have little difficulty playing devils advocate to any topic and do well against most of us here.

I know that not EVERY DUer who sides with the bfee is from these think tanks... many likely feel strongly about an issue which happens to favor the bfee for a multitude of legitimate reasons. That said, make no mistake about it, the "BAD-GUYS" do lurk here and their single purpose is to alter emotions and sway opinions. Whenever I see posts with great arguments, arguments which seem to get un-refuted or cause the reader to go hmmm and back away from the debate, and these arguments when examined seem to go along withe the needs of the bfee, I go "HMMMMM" myself.

I believe that the "impeachment issue" is a great place to look for them as one for instance. It is no secret that President Clinton had a tough time with this...it is easy for one and all to see that bush or cheney would have an even tougher time. So what do you suppose is the very LAST thing bush wants this nation wagging it's lips about? Yep! Yet a solid 10% of this forum is AGAINST impeachment! Some of these folks are quite outspoken here with a great bag of reasons why we should quiet down on this..."lets just wait" or it is a "physical impossibility".

Of an interesting note: on the People's E-mail Network, where there is a poll regarding the impeachment of Dick Cheney, 99.27+% are FOR impeachment. So why are their numbers a full 9% higher?
Because there is no place for them think-tankers to sway opinion!

Make no mistake about it: There are a few folks who want to sway YOUR emotions and opinions here in the DU, they DO want to control how you feel. Some of these folks do NOT vote for Democrats.

[Jed Dilligan]

87. So the concern trolls are organized

Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[mondo joe]

81. Thanks Jed. I don't know when a political board turned into the feeling-monitor board anyway.

You'd think a feeling - even hate - was as much a violation of rights as hitting someone with a baseball bat, some days on DU.

[Forkboy]

97. If I had that kind of power I wouldn't be wasting it here.

[Orsino]

120. We're here to listen and be heard.

Some of us probably do wish we could exert some sort of control--if the Republican Party hadn't completely succumbed to that human weakness, we might not need this board at all--however, what we're here to do is to influence, helping and guiding to varying degrees.

[Scout]

121. Nope, I cannot control and am not responsible for how other people feel

I am only responsible for myself. Except for physical pain, no one can MAKE you feel anything.

[Blashyrkh]

132. A sentiment both sides should respect.

[Madspirit]

138. That's right

We should respect THEM being dismissive of OUR pain and OUR oppression and OUR murder and OUR rights. Yup...sounds good to me.

Silly-assed queers.
Lee

[Blashyrkh]

139. You misunderstand.

"do you really think your fellow DUers have a choice as to how they feel? If they feel something that you deem incorrect or inappropriate, should they bottle it up and keep it to themselves?"

That is the sentiment I would like to see expressed by both sides of the Falwell debate that took place on DU two days ago.

I can't help just frankly not caring that Falwell is dead. He was a loud, ignorant blowhard and not worth a pinch of shit to anyone.

Pardon me for treating Falwell in death, the way I treated him in life. With complete and utter ignorance.

[porphyrian]

134. I'm not here to contol or be controlled.

I read what I want, post what I want, and don't really give a fuck what people feel about it.

[salin]

137. While I can not bring myself

to be disrespectful at the time of passing - I recognize that is a personal thing. I did tell a colleague after I read the news (as I knew she would have a good sarcastic gesture) - but I just, personally, couldn't get into the grave dancing. I know there will be plenty of time in the future to be critical (and harsh) of the actions and legacy. That said, that is personal. I can not be judgemental of others sharing their pain or anger - not at the loss - but at the words and actions of the person who died. I *get* the depth of the anger/pain/frustration (I share much of it.) I view our differences in reaction (at the time of news of the death) as differences in personal style. I don't want to be judged upon my personality (reserved, and personally conservative/traditional in behavior) and I would not judge others for the way the way they react or express themselves.

[MilesColtrane]

150. Just an observation here...

A lot of what's wrong with this world seems to emanate from people using the misdeeds against them to justify the hatred they espouse (and in some cases act on).

See Israel, Palestine, Ireland, Rwanda, Bosnia, Serbia, Iraq, etc...

Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

(BTW, I'm not holier-than-thou, if anything, I'm more flawed-than-thou)

[snagglepuss]

151. You should take a deep breath and reassess your feelings

about feelings otherwise you are in bed with Falwell, Bush, Ashcroft etc.- in bed with those who distrust thought, who distrust science, those who whip up hysteria. And what is hysteria other than feeling run amok. And where has mass hysteria gotten mankind? Hmmmm let me see - reign of terror, Rwandan genocide, ethnic cleansing, lynching, mob rule,....

Yeppers feelings is a sure guide to a better living. :eyes:

[Jed Dilligan]

152. It's funny then

that the anti-hate crowd always falls back on religious and spiritual thought, because they have no real rationale for their belief that all hate is somehow equal.

Pretending that we don't feel how we feel sure works well though, don't you think? :eyes:

[EFerrari]

154. Better -- the Concern trolls misname any assertion as "hatred".

Authoritarians among us -- we can agree or we can be damned.

Myself, I like choices.

[snagglepuss]

160. I don't advocate that people pretend that they don't feel.

I think people should acknowledge feeling. I think that if you are ecstatic Falwell is dead go ahead and rejoice. What is dangerous is believing that being in throes of feeling doesn't have a downside. You seem to say that hate isn't equal which I take to mean that sometimes it is right to hate. The problem with that is that everyone who wallows in hate believes in the the depth of their being that their hate is righteous. Falwell believed that his hate is righteous. People feel their hate is righteous because they feel it SO DEEPLY.

[Jed Dilligan]

162. The hatred of the weak for the powerful

is not equal to the hatred of the powerful for the weak.

[snagglepuss]

duplicate

[snagglepuss]

161. duplicate

[EFerrari]

153. So, my feelings are so powerful they can enact genocide?

Holy cow!

:rofl:

[snagglepuss]

159. Hmm. Well Hitler thought so and history has proved him right.

Hitler referred to emotion as "gateway" into the more suggestible regions of the human heart and mind; once this door has been opened it is possible to "get inside" of people's heads and direct their responses and actions.

To embrace feelings as some sure fire guide is to make oneself vulnerable to advanced techniques of manipulation.

Excerpts from Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf:

"All great movements are popular movements, volcanic eruptions of human passions and emotional sentiments, stirred either by the cruel Goddess of Distress or by the firebrand of the word hurled among the masses ... Only a storm of hot passion can turn the destinies of peoples ... It alone gives its chosen one the words which like hammer blows can open the gates to the heart of a people ...

"The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skillfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself, since its function, like the poster, consists in attracting the attention of the crowd, and not in educating those who are already educated or who are striving after education and knowledge, its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect...The more modest its intellectual ballast, the more exclusively it takes into consideration the emotions of the masses, the more effective it will be...

"The art of propaganda lies in understanding the emotional ideas of the great masses and finding, through a psychologically correct form, the way to the attention and thence to the heart of the broad masses. The receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand ...

"The function of propaganda is, for example, not to weigh and ponder the rights of different people, but exclusively to emphasize the one right which it has set out to argue for. Its task is not to make an objective study of the truth, in so far as it favors the enemy, and then set it before the masses with academic fairness; its task is to serve our own right, always and unflinchingly...

"The broad mass of a nation does not consist of diplomats, or even professors of political law, or even individuals capable of forming a rational opinion; it consists of plain mortals, wavering and inclined to doubt and uncertainty. As soon as our own propaganda admits so much as a glimmer of right on the other side, the foundation for doubt in our own right has been laid. The masses are then in no position to distinguish where foreign injustice ends and our own begins."