Optional work camps for the homeless

[quinnox]

This idea came to me, there could be work camps for the homeless. They would be optional. You would get a place to sleep, food to eat, and bathrooms with showers for being in the work camp and doing your job. And you would get a minor amount of money for your work, but the bulk of your reward would be food and board. The work would be mostly labor work, and could be simple tasks but still hard work. Perhaps local businesses could have small jobs they need done worked on at the camps, and in return they provide some financing.

This might be good for homeless who are looking to get out of being homeless and teach them new job skills and life skills too.

[EstimatedProphet]

1. Arbeit macht frei.

[tabasco]

11. Ever heard of the CCC?

Possibly the most successful of the New Deal programs.

[Bluebear]

Did they round up people and put them in camps too?

[tabasco]

37. Look up "optional" in the dictionary.

You apparently have a limited vocabulary.

[Bluebear]

116. That's a *truly* assholish reply. I asked about the program YOU were referring to.

/ignore at long last, go spread your misery elsewhere.

[Name removed]

324. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

431. Look up "work camps" in the history books.

The association isn't a particularly pleasant one.

[EstimatedProphet]

103. The CCC employed people honestly

That's in part why it was successful. You could do things like have a family life, choose where you live - stuff like that. That was possible because workers in the CCC were paid in money, not room&board. That's what gives people the freedom to make their own decisions.

[Bluebear]

117. Thank you.

[dflprincess]

161. Exactly.

The CCC also worked on projects, like wind breaks, that benefited everyone. They were not handed over to private businesses as slave labor as OP suggests be done with the homeless.

My uncle was in the CCC and not only did it give him a job He also learned skills that helped him eventually start a very successful business.

Then he turned Republican. I have clear memories from my childhood of he and my dad periodically having the same argument that would eventually lead to Dad yelling "You wouldn't be where you are today without Roosevelt and the Democrats!"

[EstimatedProphet]

168. My grandfather was in the CCC as a young man

He eventually became the assistant Postmaster General of the US for the midwest. Had the CCC been this program however, he never would have earned enough money to leave.

Make good money, 5 dollars a day
Make any more, I might move away

Grateful Dead, Cumberland Blues

[seattleblue]

229. Not true at all.

CCC workers were paid in money, $30 a month with a compulsory allotment $22–25 sent to a family dependent, as well as room, food, clothing and medical care.

[Hannah Bell]

272. What cost $30 in 1935 would cost $464.07 in 2009

So about $500/mo + housing/food + medical

They also received clothing and a "chance for schooling" - whatever that means.

http://www.riversidestatepark.org/ccc.htm


Better than housing + food which is the same great deal slaves & concentration camp inmates got.

[LostinVA]

285. You forgot the forced labor

For Siemens and Krup, I guess.

[Hannah Bell]

356. economic force is also force & slave pay is slave pay

[seattleblue]

360. You are absolutely right. Better than housing and food only.

Unfortunately it was very limited. You had to be under 25 and have a family member dependent on you.

[EstimatedProphet]

327. How is that not honest pay for that time?

The point is, people weren't paid in room&board with a trifling allowance. Anyone in a situation like that finds out pretty rapidly that they can't make enough money to get away from the situation if they want to, and it becomes indentured servitude.

[seattleblue]

359. I'm sure it was honest pay

But you said they weren't paid for room and board but in fact that was part of their pay. The CCC was fairly restrictive. It was limited to those 18-24 and you had to have a family dependent.

[EstimatedProphet]

387. Not at all what I meant

If a worker gets paid a good salary, and then has R&B included, good for them. It's an extra benefit that way. If a worker gets paid R&B and a minimal amount of money, then it's indentured servitude for all practical purposes. The first way gives workers control over their situation, the second doesn't.

[seattleblue]

396. Point well taken.

However some posters here seem to think the CCC were not camps. They certainly were work camps. How much control they had over that I don't know. But I fully support a CCC concept.

[LostinVA]

284. Exactly -- the OP isn't talking about the CCC

One of my grandfathers and great uncles WORKED for them, and helped build a state park, and it was a terrific EMPLOYMENT program. I think the Government should do something like that now.

But CAMPS? wwwttfff

[Bluebear]

439. you said it

[tabasco]

325. CCC workers enlisted, like you do in the Army.

They lived in camps and got paid about $25 a month, which was pretty good at the time. Most of the money was sent back home.

I'm not sure what you're talking about "having a family life."

The workers didn't have their families in the camps and many worked thousands of miles from home.

[EstimatedProphet]

328. Here's what the difference is:

paid about $25 a month, which was pretty good at the time.

That's a damn sight different than being paid room&board as a majority.

And what I mean by family life is that the homeless problem today goes well beyond single people being out of work. Homeless families are very common. How would someone take advantage of this situation if they had children, and most of their pay is room&board? That forces their families into the system too.

[DainBramaged]

462. Ain't that the truth!

:patriot:

[Cant trust em]

2. There has to be a better name for this than "work camps"

Bring a sort of Nazi-ish vision into my head.

Just sayin'.

[jdp349]

170. Happy Camps?

I like the sound of that.

[wickerwoman]

174. Comes with a small, plastic toy

for your children to amuse themselves with while you spend eleven hours a day picking up highway litter instead of being their parent.

[grasswire]

3. I believe this used to be called "the poor farm"

My former MIL lived in fear of being sent to one for years after the Great Depression.

[grasswire]

9. images

http://www.dhr.virginia.gov/registers/Counties/Frederick/034-

[grasswire]

15. kansas poor farm

?w=350

[HEyHEY]

502. Nah, cause then the government and business would just start

Using them to undercut unions and we'd have even more poor people.

[EstimatedProphet]

96. Can you believe we're actually discussing poor farms on DU?

[bobbolink]

109. Yes, I believe it. :( The "New" Dems are Republican lite, and they love it that way.

Just think how superior you would feel, bossing around those homeless captives!

[Bluebear]

118. Really, we are being squeezed out of this party little by little.

Unconscionable, these "new" Democratic ideas.

[bobbolink]

124. Oh, I think its BIIIG steps.

"Mother may I?"

Seriously, I really want these types to have to experience everything that they propose for the "other".

And, serve alongside Tancredo when they do it!

:evilgrin:

Thanks... it really does help to know that friends like you are seeing what we homeless people are truly up against.

[Bluebear]

129. No outreached hand, no breaks, no empathy, just quid pro quo.

And you get to live in a camp as your reward.

[Naturyl]

208. Isn't it repulsive?

This is being seriously proposed on DU?

ON DU??!?!?!?

When something like this is put forward with a straight face at a place like DU, that's pretty much the final confirmation that this country has jumped the shark.

[Name removed]

213. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Naturyl]

269. Bobbolink's "Imaginary Plight?"

Grats on outing yourself. Burning one with 95 posts already? Bad form. Back to the cave with you.

I smell anchovies.

[Name removed]

385. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

390. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rbrnmw]

176. You can thank the DLC nt

[LostinVA]

287. ARE THERE NO WORKHOUSES?!

Shouldn't we be helping the homeless and the other unemployed? Maybe take the billions being pissed away in Iraq and Afghanistan, and put ut to use here? Make corps quit outsourcing, create a CCC 2010?

[Maru Kitteh]

463. .

:hug:

[Renew Deal]

405. Yes

"DU is a diverse community." :D

[Hannah Bell]

188. My stepfather and his brother and mother spent time in one. She was a former schoolteacher

whose husband abandoned her during the Depression.

In those days schoolteachers were often itinerant & low-paid, moving from school to school depending on funding availability. no protections such as teachers have today.

the kind of system arne-ed is moving toward.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

194. Also called the work house. :-(

[LostinVA]

286. I completely forgot about these -- good call

Children were horribly sexually and physically abused at these places, btw.

[Donnachaidh]

4. "bulk of your reward would be food and board"

Company store anyone?

:eyes:

[awoke_in_2003]

52. I've got Ernie Fords...

"16 Tons" running through my head.

[miscsoc]

73. awoke_in_2003 watch this

it will make your head hurt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1A146sANdg

it's a GE ad!

They don't even edit out "I owe my soul to the company store"

[awoke_in_2003]

136. I'll check it out when I go home...

work blocks out youtube (or anything fun, for that matter).

[Spheric]

156. That ad. Holy crap. On so many levels. I'm speechless.

:banghead:

[AmandaRuth]

337. sweet jeebus

after seeing those buff shiny, glossy, gorgeous ladies working in sport bras, well, I can't even come up with words. Talk about brave new world propaganda.

[arcane1]

5. Sounds like a positive step to me

especially for those who had drug/alcohol issues and don't have any work history to speak of. As long as the system is setup so that they can actually move up in the world afterward, and not be stuck there because they don't make enough $ to leave.

But yeah, "work camp" probably isn't the best term :)

[Duer 157099]

6. And if the businesses receiving the labor were getting it at below-market rates

then eventually you have incentive for more homelessness, not unlike our current prison-industrial-complex, nor unlike our current military-industrial-complex.

Sorry but it seems like a slippery slope we don't need more of.

Prisoner's get something like $1 per day for their labor, what incentive do businesses that use that labor have to pay actual living wages to anyone else? So they stop paying living wages to people with homes and pretty soon those people become homeless and then get the priviledge to work for those same businesses for pennies on the dollar.

This shit should never be allowed.

[Naturyl]

210. +1. Thank you.

Not only is this idea abominably wrong and stupid from a moral perspective, it also makes zero pragmatic sense.

[sabrina 1]

413. I was going to say we already have 'work camps' in our

inhumane prison industrial complex. Motivation to make more laws entrapping the poor who can then be used as slave labor by big corporations. Soon they won't even have to outsource labor to third world countries who are now demanding higher pay anyhow. They are slowly turning this country into a huge, cheap labor force for Big Business.

BP has been taking advantage of our prison 'work camps' rather than hiring the people they put our of work.

U.S.A. Numero Uno? Not anymore.

[asdjrocky]

7. Please tell me this is a fucking joke.

Please tell me you are not really this dim witted or this insensitive.

Please tell me this is a poor attempt at a Jonathan Swift type commentary.

[bobbolink]

110. The joke's on US.

Insensitivity is IN, brother.

Now see why I have been completely discouraged???? THIS is the mentality.

I need a friend.

[asdjrocky]

152. I know you need a friend bobbo, we all do.

Know that everyone doesn't have this mindset.

[unapatriciated]

197. see my post 196

it looks like you have a few friends here.:hug:

I can't believe someone would post that shit here.

[Greyhound]

383. You've a few, though we are almost universally helpless and separated

by geography.
:pals:

[bobbolink]

484. I think of you often, knowing things are tough for you, too, now.

If you need to vent, you know my addy. :hi:

[DesertFlower]

8. here in phoenix people used to

carry signs saying "will work for food". haven't seen that in years. i do see signs that say "hungry and homeless".

[rbrnmw]

179. saw those a lot during the Raygun era n/t

[tridim]

10. I'll run the computer/Internet tent.

[Bluebear]

12. 'the bulk of your reward would be food and board' - wow you're all heart.

[asdjrocky]

13. I'm really stunned bluebear.

I'm even more stunned at some of the replies.

What is wrong with these fucking people? Let's just give it a different name???

My fucking gawd.

[Bluebear]

18. Don't let anything here shock you anymore, my brother.

You'll be saner. The whole tone of this place is so totally different from what once was.

[Naturyl]

211. Yeah, they should have done that with Auschwitz

Oh wait, they did... and made films about how great and humane the living conditions were there.

[LostinVA]

289. Even the Red Cross got to inspect it and see it was A-OK!

Just a work camp, where the reawrd was food and a bed.

[LostinVA]

288. "Special treatment" "relocation"

Slap a "nice" name on something despicable is the hallmark of cowards and sociopaths.

[quinnox]

21. So what is wrong with a place for the homeless to get food and

a place to sleep and a shower, and in return they do some work? I don't see what is so bad about that.

[Donnachaidh]

72. educate yourself and Google the term *company store*

It's obvious you need a real history lesson to realize you're advocating something that was wiped out, but our corporations are jonesing to bring back.

Seriously, educate yourself on how your *simple idea* can be turned into indentured servitude.

[EstimatedProphet]

108. The setup you're designing doesn't allow people freedom to make their own decisions.

That's a big part of it.

[bobbolink]

111. You first.

Then, your mother.

I'm sure she would love you for it.

[LostinVA]

290. And also "poor fams" and "workhouses"

A moral country either employs its citizens or takes care of them, period.

[awoke_in_2003]

53. +10000

surprises never end.

[bobbolink]

112. What's worse is that I'm not at all surprised.

:puke:

I used to hate that emoticon... I thought it was completely tasteless. There are times when the posts are so tasteless its the only emoticon that fits.

[awoke_in_2003]

134. agreed...

vomiting in the face of something repulsive is normal.

[EstimatedProphet]

I've got an idea! Let's just make being homeless illegal!

Then we can use the homeless as labor with no problems at all! We can even use them to build their own prisons!

[jdp349]

172. exactly!

it's like if you don't have have a house get a mortgage and if you don't have enough money for the down payment just withdraw enough from your trust fund. I mean it's not that fucking difficult people.

:sarcasm:

[Naturyl]

219. Winnnahhh!!!

+100. Skip the middleman and the "work camps." We already have work camps where coerced labor is sold to corporations - they are called "prisons."

And yes, it IS coerced labor even if the camps are "voluntary." It is economically coerced labor. The first time a millionaire signs up for one of the camps, I will stand corrected.

[EstimatedProphet]

329. EXACTLY!

It is economically coerced labor.

This is by default using economic coercion. Use the poor farms as a solution for unemployment, and there's no other solutions necessary. Then you have a class of indentured servants that can never make enough money to escape the system.

[LostinVA]

291. It worked in the 30's and early 40's!

I bet GM, etal, would love free labor!!!

[woo me with science]

341. It is. nt

[sabrina 1]

417. Giuliani did that. And the shame is that for a long time he was

popular in NYC, including among Democrats. It was only after several terms in office that his numbers fell into the 20s, right before 9/11. Then he was turned into a faux hero to the shock of those of us who knew what he was.

Giuliani's Message To Homeless -- No Room For You On City's Streets

Race is the essence of this issue. Most of the city's homeless are African Americans and Latinos. The people that have Giuliani's ear find such people "threatening" when they are doing nothing more than walking down the street minding their own business. Now, thousands of law abiding African American homeless men, many of whom are Vietnam veterans, are being further demonized to make the Giuliani administration appear decisive.

Is this what the mayor's ludicrous upstate campaign ads mean by his "compassion?"

Last weekend, Giuliani's army of 40,000 police began carrying out his latest purge -- twenty-three men and women were arrested and charged with disorderly conduct, a legal euphemism for the crime of having no place to call home. When you hear the story of how Giuliani has changed New York, remember that this, not the bright lights of Times Square or the ringing of the bell in the New York Stock Exchange, is the reality behind that change

Too bad people didn't check into this guy before rushing to call him 'America's Mayor'. He was no hero on that day either.

He was resurrected from the deserved ashes of his political career by a media who knew full well what he was. His Police Commissioner at the time is now spending time in jail. 'The Scum Also Rises' should be the title of a biography of this faux 9/11 hero.

[Monique1]

14. That has been tried before

This is called slave labor and these people were abused. How about the company store that Tennessee Ernie Ford sang about this? During the reconstruction of the south they used prison camps. What do you think Jim Crow was about - slave labor. What will these people be forced to believe?

[quinnox]

17. no, because its all optional

its not slave labor, its just one option for the homeless people to consider.

[Monique1]

24. It won't be optional believe me

So what happens if they won't take the offer?

[quinnox]

25. nothing, they just don't get the benefits from being in the work camp

Its all up to them.

[Bluebear]

26. "Its all up to them." - Oh my god.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asdjrocky]

160. It just keeps getting worse.

I think the last time I saw someone dig a hole this deep was in Boston.

[Donnachaidh]

82. That sounds like something Mr. Potter from "It's a Wonderful Life" would say

*BENEFITS* from a work camp? Are you f*cking kidding me?

Zeig blah blah blah.... :puke:

[bobbolink]

157. Perfect! The "New" Democratic Potters!

:toast: :pals: :toast:

[LostinVA]

294. Well, Work Will Make Them Free

[Hannah Bell]

195. "the benefits" being they get to do "hard work" for a full day in return

for a dorm bunk, a shower and 3 meals?

i.e. $1200 worth of work ($7.50/hour x 8 hour day x 4 5-day weeks) for $600 worth of comps? ($400/mo in housing + hot water + $200/mo in food)?

wow, what a deal.

for work camp contractors, that is.

[Bluebear]

234. Sounds like something the Bush clan would invest in.

[LostinVA]

292. And there you go -- and you still think it's right and good

:wtf:

[LostinVA]

293. And there you go -- and you still think it's right and good

:wtf:

[Donnachaidh]

74. optional, when you yourself said *the bulk of the reward will be food and board*

You advocate indentured servitude.

Quite literally. :eyes:

[My Good Babushka]

16. Awful! I can't believe you thought that or typed that.

Maybe their children can be taken away, too. So they can be raised in suitable homes! Hurrah hurrah!

[quinnox]

19. why? so you don't want the homeless to get a place to sleep

or a place to get clean? What is wrong with that?

[My Good Babushka]

22. Where are you going to put mothers with young children?

Anyone who is working- even if it is general labor or taking care of children- should not have to rely on charity shelter- that's what you should be fighting for. They should have wages for self-sufficient living.

[Bluebear]

29. We can hire homeless wet nurses to take care of the babies so the biological mom can work.

Everybody wins, and everyone will get the "reward" of food and shelter! :crazy:

[quinnox]

32. They could have separate quarters from the men

And there would be security too, to prevent crimes. The security jobs would be available to the homeless as well.

[Bluebear]

33. So you assume all the homeless mothers must be single moms. No families?

[quinnox]

I suppose family quarters could be made available

I guess this is kind of turning into a mini-city project, but perhaps it could be that expansive and ambitious.

[Donnachaidh]

84. will they have cabin snitches to tell on the inmates who are doing evil things?

And will the guards be contracted out to Blackwater? :sarcasm:

WORK CAMP is what you are advocating. In the worst possible format.

[quinnox]

88. "cabin snitches" oh boy

You have some kind of weird ideas of what my camp looks like, it is not that at all! Stop thinking of Hollywood movies, that is not what I am proposing. My camp would be a clean and worthwhile place to go and the primary mission would be to help homeless people.

What is so wrong about helping the homeless, you act like I should be cursed for daring to have compassion!

[Donnachaidh]

102. compassion does NOT include indentured servitude

And I was reaching for a ridiculous claim because you are so high up on your horse you won't even admit how *repulsive* your *compassionate* idea is. This is the sort of amatuerish knee-jerk idea that comes from someone who has NO CLUE as to the day to day struggle the poor have had to deal with over the past hundred years. It's so much easier to sweep the poor into *camps* where they don't have to be seen by latte liberals who don't *really* want to address the problems -- they just want to *look* as if they care, by pulling ideas straight out of their ass, in order to impress their friends.

Again -- EDUCATE yourself on the term *company store*. That is, if you really want to understand. But your reaction to others pointing the same thing out makes me suspect you would consider it a waste of time, because it would take away from your *compassion*.

:eyes:

[quinnox]

121. compassion is never repulsive

And I feel sorry for you that you have some kind of nightmarish vision for my camp you cling to, even though I repeatedly point out that is not my vision at all.

It is not indentured servitude, that is not my idea or what I have in mind. That is what YOUR mind comes up with, not me.

[unapatriciated]

223. If they are not paid a fair wage for their work and

required to live in guarded segregated camps it is a work farm. If you have compassion for the poor give them a hand up not a boot on the throat. Did you not read the Grapes of Wrath.

[Raineyb]

485. What compassion? There's nothing compassionate about indentured servitude

what you're proposing is one very tiny step up from slavery. And I do mean tiny. I'll grant that they won't be cutting off people's feet to keep them from running away but other than that what you're describing is akin to slavery and I can't believe you have the nerve to think you're being compassionate. I think you should look up the word. While you're at it look up "company store" and "optional" It's not really all that optional if you're dangling the very basics of what people need to live over their heads in exchange for "volunteering" to work.

And look up volunteering too while you're at it.

[bobbolink]

137. Thank you for getting it. That is the only saving grace of this repulsive thread--

many of you are now seeing the attitude that we homeless people deal with on a daily basis.

Yes, this is really the mindset that we have to deal with.

This is the sort of thing we would expect from Beck, or O'Reilly, etc.

Aren't we proud of what we have become?

[asdjrocky]

150. I've been waiting for you.

:hi:

[bobbolink]

153. ^_^ I've been on the road all day.... .just got to a library, and saw that someone notified me

about this.

I gotta tell ya... I am so grateful for so many friendly "faces" here... this would be real hell if I were to stumble upon this and not see people puking on their shoes!!

:hi: :pals: :hi:

[asdjrocky]

165. Solidarity.

We got it.

[Naturyl]

235. Yes, you're right.

It's been nice to see that most DU'ers find this insane, and it's good to have the mentality of the OP exposed in order to see what kind of thinking is creeping into "progressive" circles more and more.

[bobbolink]

477. Long time, no see! Great to see your name appear!

Yes, this thread was great for me.. to see so many people come out and be stunned... and SEE what we homeless people are confronted with. And not having to actually confront it myself, really feels damned good!

Thanks to everyone who spoke up against this kind of insanity! :toast:

[awoke_in_2003]

420. "many of you are now seeing the attitude that we homeless people deal with "

I haven't fully caught up from last night, but it looks like a good deal of people here still think properly. I guess the minority is just very vocal.

[bobbolink]

481. I was referring to the proposal being assinine, and reflective of a certain mindset that isn't

uncommon.

This is so pathetic that it has brought out many who are now seeing just how pathetic it has become.

Thanks for showing up and posting! :hi:

[asdjrocky]

163. Now it's your camp?

"You have some kind of weird ideas of what my camp looks like"

Please, just stop now.

[bobbolink]

166. Naw.... I wanna see this poster and the others (the very few, thank the goddess!), who think

this is a plan, IN the "camp" themselves.

They go first.

Really, I want to see them in it!

heck, we could go throw some govmint cheese at 'em! :evilgrin:

[PJPhreak]

180. "govmint cheese" OMG...Reagun Wax!!

I hope never to see a block of that "Buliding Material" ever again in my life!!

bobbolink,You doing ok today? my thoughts are with you.

Peace,P.J.

[bobbolink]

474. "Building material"!

:rofl:

Save 'em up and use 'em as cinder blocks! Oh, what a mental image!

This is why I get so steamed about the ignorance of DUers, judging others for "not eating properly". There are so many who are lucky to have *anything* to eat, and judging them is just beyond... BEYOND.

Right now I am soaking wet, having just got caught in a gully washer! Unbelievable.

You know how it is ... ups and downs---with the downs predominating. I really appreciate you asing... how you be doing? :hi:

[asdjrocky]

186. In a wierd way, this gives me hope.

I see a lot of people here who are starting to "get it". I see people listening and responding with real compassion.

Inch by inch my friend, inch by inch.

[awoke_in_2003]

424. Same here...

recently I have gotten the "ick" feeling while reading here. Maybe the minority are just VERY vocal.

[OneGrassRoot]

435. Good point. This thread gives me hope, too. :) n/t

[bobbolink]

475. That was the thought I had too...... so many see just how weird it gets, and start to understand a

bit of what I have been preaching.

The inches are too slow for me..... so much suffering and dying, waiting for the inches..... :(

You're in my thoughts... :pals:

[awoke_in_2003]

422. "govmint cheese"

Actually from what I remember, I wish I could find out who makes it, because I would buy it. Don't know about the stuff now, but in the 80's it made the best grilled cheese sandwiches (of course, my mind could be affected with "good old day" syndrome). The peanut butter, on the other hand, was pretty horrid.

[bobbolink]

476. As someone here mentioned, it would work well as "building material".

I'm glad you liked it, because if you needed it to hold the empty belly at length, much better you like it! ^_^

As I also said, this is why I get so steamed about DUers judging people for not eating the way DUers think people should eat. For so many, just having a full belly is all they can aspire to.

[Hugabear]

217. Do you get the feeling the OP likes to play dress-up in the mirror?

Maybe the OP slips on an SS uniform every now and then and fantasizes about running his very own concentration camp.

[asdjrocky]

233. It is, after all, his beautiful vision.

So yeah, I can picture that.

[Bluebear]

264. "Mein Kampf"

or something like that!

[LostinVA]

300. I noticed that, too n/t

[LostinVA]

299. And career violent criminals can be made their kapos... err.... overseers

[Naturyl]

221. This just goes from bad to worse

Now homeless people are going to be separated by gender like animals?

Hoo boy, better stop digging that hole before you hit China.

[LostinVA]

297. The Nazis separated the families too, and so did the workhouses

The Nazis did let the Roma families stay together before they were gassed. Will you ate least let the Romas stay together???

[Spheric]

77. 1 in 50 children in America is homeless

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8837148

I say put those little buggers to work, too.

[Donnachaidh]

76. advocating a form of indentured servitude for a little food and a shower?

:wow:

[Naturyl]

236. It's apalling, isn't it?

Thank non-denominational God that most DU'ers can see the repugnance of it.

[Naturyl]

220. Yeah, I want a place for the homeless to sleep and get clean.

It's called A HOME.

Jesus.

[LostinVA]

295. Because you don't advocate that, you advocate slave camps

Do you make your weekend guests go out and break some rocks in your backyard?

[JanMichael]

20. Actually a voluntary Kibbutz would probably work well.

The original type where people worked together and made common decisions on governance and activities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz

EDIT: I would add that anyone could join not just the homeless.

[Monique1]

23. My goodness

sounds like we are going back to slavery time. This is something that a repuke would come with but I have been waiting for someone to say something like this. I was waiting for a right winger to come up with this idea. Why do you think they want all the illegals out of the US?

[Bitwit1234]

27. Sounds like FDR's WPA projects

this is the type of thing the Obama administration should have done all along instead of handing out money. Each state could have it's own projects.

[quinnox]

30. Yes

Then work would be done and people could get help at the same time.

[bobbolink]

115. You're kidding, right?

CCC and WPA people got ....

PAID

[BuelahWitch]

198. No, it sounds more like the old Victorian workhouses

Families were pulled apart, children put in orphanages and the men and the women separated.

[Individualist]

201. Exactly!

[Naturyl]

237. +1

It's that same thinking cropping up again...

Sad to see it at DU. If it can happen at DU, what has American culture come to?

[LostinVA]

303. Don't forget the treadmill and pasting labels onto jars, etc.

[LostinVA]

301. This is nothing like the WPA/CCC

[Forkboy]

28. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean the best.

I hope you listen, and actually think about, some of the responses you've gotten, and will get.

[xchrom]

31. ?!?!?. Nt

[Marr]

34. I'm stunned that this is being seriously suggested here.

And doubly stunned that others are taking it as a reasonable, one might even say "pragmatic", solution to homelessness.

[asdjrocky]

35. So your are serious?

This isn't some kind of bad joke?

[quinnox]

36. its an idea

Perhaps the phrase work camps is not the best way to put it. Maybe work cooperatives or some other term without baggage would be better.

[JanMichael]

39. See post #20. nt

[asdjrocky]

NO!

It's not the wording, it's not a phrase, it's the whole idea. It's not about semantics, it's about right and wrong. Your post smacks of snobby class warfare, and I find it a little sick.

This is offensive to people, do you realize that? What about those that can't work? What about the disabled?

People that can work need jobs, not some kind of a fucking camp, and people that can't work, need help.

There is nothing that is good about this idea and I encourage you to think about it.

[Marr]

46. It's a horrible idea.

Local businesses chip in some spare change, and in return they get access to what is essentially a slave labor pool? Why don't you take a look at what Jim Crow-era prison labor encouraged. It set up a whole system that encouraged the legal system to lock up every healthy black man they could for as long as they could, on the most trifling of charges. It created a system that was slave labor with window dressing.

[unapatriciated]

227. someone else liked to name things too.

He had some real winners...

No Child left behind

Clear Skies

Clean Water

those work out quite well.

you can change the name but it will still be working for the company store.

[bobbolink]

488. Some were paying attention and learning, eh?

Never mind they were learning the Bad Examples....

sigh...

:(

[Naturyl]

238. Goly shit... renaming it doesn't make it stop being inexcusable exploitation.

Wow... please read the responses in this thread, and take some time to consider why people reacted this way. Then forget this idea forever.

[LostinVA]

304. You are talking about a fucking commune or kibbutz, so just stop

[Hugabear]

451. Actually, a commune or kibbutz isn't quite the same as this

In a commune or kibbutz, everyone pitches in, works together, and shares in the proceeds. They tend to be self-run, autonomous. In the labor camp system the OP describes, their work is being exploited to produce goods for someone else, and they only reap a minor reward for their efforts.

[Liberation Angel]

38. Full Employment, free housing, free medical care, education, daycare

All these are important. Sending people to camps is bad branding of the idea.

But if you had communities where people could have decent jobs, shelters, and all of the above required for a decent life then I am sure many folks would love to participate rather than be homless.

It is all in how you present the idea and how you implement it. "Work Camp" sounds like communism, Naziism, or slavery.

But if you got housing, food, etc as part of your salary and had an opportunity to advance and get better lifestyle, choice of entertainment, etc this could work.

But we need to be damn sure it is not exploitation.

IF we had a renewable energy and transportation jobs program for anyone who wanted to put their skills to work, we could have full employment.

All we have now is money going into the fascist money pit of endless war and global degradation.

[county worker]

79. Nothing is free.

Somebody has to work to earn the money to pay for it.

[Liberation Angel]

132. Au contraire

I eat for free all the time (plenty of free food in the wild and even in dumpsters). Homeless people find free places to sleep.

Health care can be provided free by doctors willing to provide it.

Money is a totally fabricated social consensus construct.

It is NOT required for ANYTHING.

Resources ARE required however, yet money is never required. You could totally live in a barter system world if the social structure was in place for that.

[Naturyl]

239. Yes indeed. The reality is that everything is free.

People have just been conditioned to think the opposite, so that the "ownership class" can exploit their fears for enormous profits.

[county worker]

323. Even in a barter system you need to have something to trade.

[EstimatedProphet]

330. Yes you could, but in practice it would be a very complex system

Resources for technologically rare/complex items (medical equipment, electronics, etc.) become very hard to acquire in such a system, because of the intensive labor to construct them. Food isn't hard to find in a barter system, true; an EKG or MRI, not so easy.

[Hosnon]

423. Plus you'd have to know an impossibly large number of conversion factors.

How many units of bricks equals a unit of calculators? How many units of massage-hours equals a unit of bread? Etc...

One huge advantage of money is it is a universal conversion factor. I don't have to know how many bricks equals a calculator. I the brick-builder/calculator-needer just sell my bricks to the homebuilder for money and then use that money to buy a calculator from the calculator-maker.

[Liberation Angel]

185. Free food (LA Times today)

http://www.latimes.com/features/food/la-fo-forager-20100729,0,6934097.story?track=rss

[awoke_in_2003]

426. Increase my taxes...

even in my tax bracket, most of us could afford to pay more. Also, when you do this, make sure to start getting some more from the fat cats.

[bobbolink]

127. HOUSING, not shelter.

I repeat, HOUSING, not shelter.

If it helps to cement the idea, just think of your mother having to live the rest of her life bouncing from shelter to shelter.

The country is overrun with "shelters".

We. Need. Housing.

[Liberation Angel]

139. I was using shelter in the sense of housing

not homeless shelters.

In its generic meaning of protection from the elements.

But I agree with you, housing is a better word. But shelter is what is required for survival and in many cases homeless do not have even basic shelter at all. We definitely need more and better shelters as well as absolute right to decent housing for all.

[bobbolink]

148. I thought you probably were, but there is so much ignorance about this whole issue

that it is important to stipulate exactly what is needed.

No, there are PLENTY of shelters!

Its HOUSING that is misssing.

Shelters are being used as permanent housing, and that is just perpetuating the problem. The more shelters there are, the less chance for ANY housing to be built.

Please understand about this... this isn't semantics.

This is a serious issue.

NO to your last sentence! NO NO NO!

[Liberation Angel]

167. I have worked with the homeless my entire adult life.

There are NOT plenty of shelters and there are even fewer decent ones.

Shelters are inherently meant to be temporary.

But again i basically agree with you. But however you define shelter or housing better facilities are needed. Good permanent and temporary housing (we are a highly mobile population).

I have stayed in hostels and dorms and worked in the shelter system. Mostly the shelters suck. So your point is well taken.

But where there are insufficient and indecent shelters there needs to be enough and they need to be decent.

I used shelter, again, in the generic sense of protection from the elements (heat, water, protection).

But I agree that homes for all is what is needed.

[bobbolink]

479. I'm glad we basically agree, because the more $$ that is put into shelters, the less $$ there is for

needed housing.

If you are saying there aren't enough shelters because the ones there are full, then the point is that shelters are becoming permanent housing solutions, and that needs to change.

There *are* plenty of emergency shelters. They are full because there is no housing, and that won't be solved by more shelters.

I keep stressing this, because all people, including "progressives", think of when the issue of homelessness comes up is SHELTERS.

It is insane.

[proteus_lives]

40. Add a trade school to that and you've got a keeper of an idea.

[Naturyl]

240. Blatant exploitation and indentured servitude is "a keeper of an idea?"

I knew there was a reason I had your name on my mental "red flag list."

[proteus_lives]

261. Lulz-worthy.

How dramatic you are. Are you clutching your pearls tight enough?

Yeah and I guess the massive public-work programs of the New Deal were "indentured servitude" too. :eyes:

[Naturyl]

268. Those programs actually PAID people.

Big difference.

They also didn't sell the labor dirt cheap to corporations. They were PUBLIC works projects.

Congrats on defending this, though. There are some things you can't erase from the record.

Good luck on DU in the future, having taken a stand for this.

[proteus_lives]

270. Why wouldn't they pay people in this scenario?

Pay them, teach them a skill and send them on their way.

Where was he talking about corporations? A program like this should be run by the government.

And where did he say anyone would be forced to do this?

I have no problem with I've said, do you have a problem with jumping the gun?

[EstimatedProphet]

331. They wouldn't pay people in this scenario because of how the OP defined it

As paid in majority with room&board. That's the crux of the biscuit.

[proteus_lives]

358. I can understand adjusting pay in regards of room/board.

But why couldn't finding homes be part of this program? That would make sense to me. Offices for education, work and home placement. They have federal housing programs, which could be used in connection.

[LostinVA]

373. Except they wouldn't be paid a wage under the OP's scenario

He isn't advocating something like the CCC.

[proteus_lives]

381. I think the OP's idea should viewed as jumping off point.

I saw it and immediately thought, "Oh, you could turn that into something like one of the old New Deal programs."

[LostinVA]

391. Except his replies in this thread shows he doesn't mean it that way

[bobbolink]

489. How do you find what isn't there?

[NMMNG]

41. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little

That's seriously fucked up.

[Simple Minds]

42. Not quite

Simply not going to work with any of this kind of marketing.

[Greyhound]

43. Just wow.

:wow:

I really can't believe I read that here. Why would you specify "a minor amount of money for (their) work"? Why would you choose the term work camp? I use that term to describe modern day America on the whole, and it is a criticism, you seem to think it a good thing.
:wtf:

[pitohui]

44. go volunteer, interact w. actual homeless, and you'll see how ridiculous this idea is

no homeless person/family needs a work camp

there are two types of homeless -- type one (and families often fall into this group) are those who can/do work but simply don't have enough income, because jobs don't fucking pay enough or because there are not enough jobs to do that need doing -- those folks don't need "camps," they need some temporary assistance to help them get going on their own -- an example would be the hundreds of thousands of people made suddenly homeless by katrina -- money ($2k from FEMA, $500 from Red Cross), food, clean water, transport to a safe spot, and similar temporary "helps" were all that needed for most people to find their way

type two has a severe mental or physical disability (often both, often intractable, often combined w/ a substance abuse problem) and CANNOT do "hard work," forcing them into the work place is just make work for the supervisor, because it wastes more time & energy to put them thru the motions of doing a job than it does to have the job done by somebody who is of sound mind and body

also, keep in mind that we ALREADY don't have enough jobs for all the people who want them and who are mentally/physically healthy enough to do them, now you are asking those people to compete with slave labor?????

work camps are a shitty idea on every level

when people talk abt teaching new "job/life skills" to the homeless, i have to wonder if they have any contact w. the reality based universe at all

all these job skills are of no value if there are no jobs, and "hard work" to fill time, such as picking up trash, is already done by prisoners, to my eye america is already overwhelmed with more working slaves (thanks to the prison system) than at any time in history

we do not need to make slaves, we need to provide decent shelter/food etc. to people that is NOT contigent on working

in the world of the future, there will be robots, there will be computers, etc. THERE WILL NEVER AGAIN BE A JOB FOR EVERY PERSON WHO WANTS ONE, a job will be a rare privilege

work camps -- forcing people to do make work for food -- is just cruel

[Naturyl]

243. + one hundred and twenty-two million, six hunded thousand, and thirty-four.

"we do not need to make slaves, we need to provide decent shelter/food etc. to people that is NOT contigent on working"

Bingo, we have a winner.

[Desertrose]

45. Good grief. *facepalm*

Don't even know where to begin with this.....

You make all homeless sound like simpletons. Wonder how many with degrees are among that lot.....I just...can't....no words....work camps? Really? *facepalm*

[bobbolink]

143. I'm glad this thead is here... I'm glad you saw it.

Now you know the attitude we deal with on a daily basis.

Think what it does to one's spirit.

This is for REAL.

[CreekDog]

48. I once read about this

[Dogmudgeon]

49. History ... history ...

I don't want to add my voice to the growing chorus; I don't believe you proposed that out of malice or political extremism.

But ...

You HAVE TO check out the history of these kinds of "remedies" for poverty. It's quite often a very innocuous and charitable-sounding proposal that in practice actually strips the poor of every last thread of their dignity.

It's not so much the physical form of the work camp per se that's bad; it's the social structure that supports and reinforces it.

History ... education ... seriously.

--d!

[stray cat]

50. The progressives prefer they starve or freeze on the streets

rather than have a choice

[Spheric]

57. The choices are: starve and freeze on the street or slavery?

I would die before I allowed myself to be enslaved like that. And, I can promise you I would not die alone.

[jgraz]

63. Yes, god forbid we have to stop funding a war to provide a minimal safety net.

:eyes:

[Naturyl]

244. No you would not.

There are some things a self-respecting human being does not stand for.

[Forkboy]

59. We can always count on you.

:freak:

[SammyWinstonJack]

80. Every Damn Time!

:puke:

[LostinVA]

305. Woo hoo!!!

[jgraz]

64. And your work with the homeless would be?

a) jack

-- or --

b) shit


Stay warm tonight.

[Forkboy]

87. Kicking them to the curb.

[bobbolink]

138. Yup!

Stay VERY warm! :evilgrin:

thanks! :hi:

[Forkboy]

460. Pissing on them.

[Bluebear]

120. Why you are still allowed to parade your filth around here I will never know.

[LostinVA]

306. +1

[racaulk]

357. +2

I have yet to see how that user adds anything of value to this forum.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

425. +3. Maybe it's like keeping the asshole on the reality show so the ratings stay good. -nt

[Bluebear]

500. nodding.

[asdjrocky]

175. That is gross and sick.

Almost as sick as the OP.

[Name removed]

322. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[racaulk]

355. +1

[VMI Dem]

395. Awesome!

:yourock:

[LostinVA]

332. I love how "Progressive" is always a slur coming from you

[racaulk]

354. We can ALWAYS count on you to make an inflammatory "hit and run" post, stray cat.

FFS. :eyes:

[Forkboy]

461. It's what trolls do.

[Ignis]

445. According to Skinner, we are all progressives at DU.

Are you saying that every DUer would prefer the homeless "starve or freeze on the streets?"

I'm in awe. :freak:

[Raineyb]

491. What a revolting thing to say.

And why am I not surprised you said it?

[BlueIdaho]

51. I'm ok with a new Civilian Conservation Corps.

Frankly there's plenty of work that needs to be done to our crumbling transportation infrastructure, damaged coastlines, dilapidated schools, and municipal facilities. The CCC gave long term unemployed young men (hey it was the 1930s) training, a sense of purpose, and pocket money. Most of their earnings went home to their families - helping to support them and the local businesses where they spent that money. Its impressive just how many of those CCC projects are still providing value today.

I'd rather see money invested in the lives of ordinary people that banksters any day.

[EstimatedProphet]

119. Sure, a new CCC would be great

This ain't that by a long shot.

[LostinVA]

307. Yup, I've been advocating that for two years n/t

[Spheric]

54. Lord have mercy on my soul. Now I've seen everything. /nt

[Jigglebilly]

55. I won't use nazi references to bash you as I believe your heart is in the right place BUT:

this essentially creates an underclass of underpaid laborers, will gut the last vestiges of unions in this country, create bureaucratic nightmares of regulation and the attached fraud that happens with shit like this, and it won't fix underlying causes of poverty. It won't give a feeling of opportunity or freedom for the people in it. Quite the opposite. For a smaller scope view of how this is occurring today, look for studies on the impact of prison labor on local economies. There's a reason we don't just put every idle body to work for nothing but a crust of bread and a bed.

The fact of the matter is we need to ACCEPT that there is GOING TO BE a certain % of the population which is going to be unemployed. Increased dependance on technological advances and automated production is going to drive this trend regardless of other economic impact factors in ANY given economy. People who WANT to work should have the opportunity but those who CAN'T or WON'T should be able to live out their lives in a certain basic level of comfort and security.

Literally, our money is better spent on welfare, housing projects, and invigorating our economy.

[miscsoc]

66. I don't know, it depends how you read the first post

And the comparison with prison labour is a good point, this couldn't work if businesses could use it as a pool of cheap labour. But public works programmes are another thing. Actually if these "camps" were to be worthwhile, they would probably be a bit more expensive, given that the workforce would be by definition that segment of the homeless population who couldn't get work elsewhere, and need training etc.

In general, I think work programmes can be a useful form of welfare, within certain very specific boundaries, and i can concieve some sort of adult rehabilitation centre where troubled people who found difficulty living independently could have an environment where they could work and live and learn how to live as adults. If it's optional.

[Jigglebilly]

271. maybe for some people...we don't know enough about the demographics of homelessness in this country

there's no corporate incentive to study things like this. Fields such as my own (urban sociology and globalization studies)could craft great studies to find out more but where's the profit in that?

We don't know who would or wouldn't utilize these programs. Fact of the matter is some chronically homeless people actually do choose to remain nomadic and unattached. Many more don't. To undertake something of this magnitude would require a government that wasn't disingenuously farming out social programs to corporate masters. I doubt we have or will get such a government in the foreseeable future.

Long of the short of it is these utopian conversations about crafting the social landscape of this country are moot.

We're in damage control mode.

[miscsoc]

280. good points basically

[awoke_in_2003]

56. I have only used unrec feature...

a couple times since its inception- this is one of those cases.

[Naturyl]

245. Thank you.

I am skeptical of the unrec feature as well, but if ever an OP thread was made for it, this is it.

[Stinky The Clown]

58. Oh My God. Is **THIS** what passes for Democratic thinking these days????????

Work Camps?

How about Cancer Camps?

Gay Camps?

Camps for each religious denomination?

I know ..... Camps for the various races.

Camps for ..... what?





I'm spitting mad at this.

CAMPS?!?!?!?!?!?

Do you recall the camps the Hitler regime ran? How about Chairman Mao's camps. The Gulags?






Un fucking believable.





. . . . . camps. Indeed.


on edit: I am reccing this in hopes it goes to the top of the Greatest Page

[Forkboy]

60. Yes.

[saracat]

106. Rec one billion. You GET it Stinky! How dare they????????

[saracat]

107. Rec one billion. You GET it Stinky! How dare they????????

[Bluebear]

122. It is EXACTLY what passes as Democratic thinking these days.

[bobbolink]

142. Yuup. Welcome to my world.

[Naturyl]

246. Then we'd better get serious about reclaiming the Democratic party.

Because if this is what passes for "Democratic" thinking in America, El Salvador starts looking good.

[asdjrocky]

177. It takes a fucking clown to tell the truth.

You speak for a lot of us here Stinky, keep it up.

[Individualist]

202. It's classic DLC thinking.

[mtnester]

348. Sad, scary and awful

I want my party back NOW

[cottonseed]

430. I remember FDR's WWII internment camps that DUers keep remembering so fondly.

Those were the days when Democrats where real Democrats they say.

[LostinVA]

437. Who the hell on here is remembering the INTERNMENT camps fondly???

NOT ONE PERSON.

I have NEVER seen that on this site, ever.


:wtf:

[miscsoc]

61. Not all homeless people are the same,

Many of them are just homeless because they can't get a job, and would benefit from normal job creation programmes that just gave them money to get housing etc.

Although I agree that this sort of thing would be a good and humane option for the significant proportion of homeless people who are genuinely dysfunctional (the mentally ill, people with addictions or very problematic backgrounds) and miscellaneous other people who have similar problems but have managed to cling to housing for one reason or another. If such "work camps" gave the individuals some degree of privacy and support, I'm sure many homeless people would be eager to take up the opportunity.

The reason they don't exist is that they would probably cost a lot of money - it's a lot cheaper to just let people sleep on the street or herd them off to miserable, dangerous "shelters". Actually I imagine places like this do already exist, probably run by private charities. If the government was willing to, it could attach them to large public infrastructure projects requiring a lot of relatively unskilled labour.

[jgraz]

62. Or, how 'bout this crazy idea?

We give homeless people ... homes. We feed them, we clothe them, we educate them and we give them access to healthcare, including mental health and drug counseling.

We might have to stop a war or two to do it, but I think we can pull it off.

YES WE CAN!


(Work camps. OMFG. :wow:)

[Starry Messenger]

65. You madcap radical.

It's much more sensible to spend money on building and running work camps. Every corporation could have their own. They'd practically run themselves. Think how cute everyone would look in their crisp corporate livery *cough* uniforms.

[SammyWinstonJack]

85. +1000.

:thumbsup:

[Political_Junkie]

113. Hear! Hear!

:applause:

[Naturyl]

247. OMG, that's RADICAL!

Wow, you must be some kind of rabid Che-loving Communist. Give homeless people HOMES? How's THAT going to solve the problem? Geez, man, get back in touch with the mainstream. Work camps and "success training" re-education by Neal Boortz are the way to go.

:sarcasm:

[noamnety]

67. What a great way to avoid paying minimum wage!

And since the main reason people are homeless is that they are too stupid to know how to do "simple tasks" this would be excellent job training. And we could teach them "life skills" too! Woohoo! Maybe tricky stuff like eating with silverware.

Once they are too old to be useful we'd have to kick them out of course. Shame they wouldn't have a pension or savings, but at least we'd have extracted all the work out of them that we could before they're dismissed. It's a win-win!

Hard to see why anyone found this offensive.

(I hope I don't need the sarcasm tag here. Some of the posts in this thread leave me wondering, though.)

[quinnox]

78. you would make a great comedian

I have to admit you had me rolling with your "eating with silverware" line.

Anyway, I think some people have taken my post the wrong way, some of you. It is meant to be a way to help the homeless, NOT some kind of Nazi style death camp, for gods sakes.

[Donnachaidh]

86. you *yourself* advocated their *pay* be food and board

If that isn't a way to bypass paying minimum wage, I don't know what is.

[Bluebear]

123. Not even pay, but a "reward", like caged circus animals.

[laconicsax]

171. Careful! You'll give them ideas and they'll start charging admission...

...you know, so "normal" people can bring their children to see "the homeless."

I bet the gift shop will have costume pieces and keychains.

[noamnety]

92. I think we took your post the right way

but you aren't seeing the human, economic or historical implications of it. And I don't believe you have a clue about why people lose their homes. Most bankruptcies are from bills from a medical crisis, not because people need job training that consists of manual labor or because they don't have "life skills." It's insulting and infuriating, and assumes that they need to learn the most basic of skills from our benevolent asses when the reality is that many of us could be learning job skills from them.

It's the worst of what capitalism is - exploitation of the weakest, allowing businessmen to extract almost free labor out of people because they are desperate. The businessman gets to pocket the profits of their labor, while the people doing the real work are given the bare minimum needed to live to work another day.

There's a reason people formed unions so they would get compensated fairly for their labor, instead of having to work in sweatshops with subsistence pay that never allowed them to get ahead.

[smokey nj]

94. Well said!

[LostinVA]

308. VERY few Nazi camps were technically death camps, they were labor camps

Dachau, for instance, started out by housing the "bad elements" of society, like the homeless. Where they lived in dorms and worked at labor. They sucked, but weren't like Auschwitz 1044 for a while.

[Naturyl]

248. Yeah, as a former homeless perosn, I can heartily affirm...

...That I definitely needed to learn "life skills" and so forth. Thank goodness I went to the "Job Corps" as a youth, where one of the classrooms featured an educational poster entitled "Shaps" (yes, without the e) and displayed intellectually baffling things like circles, triangles, and squares. Having recorded some of the highest standardized test scores in my home state and scored a perfect 800 on the verbal SAT, I certainly needed to learn about "Shaps," as do all stupid and mentally deficient homeless people.

[PJPhreak]

68. Oh,Srlsy???

"And you would get a minor amount of money for your work, but the bulk of your reward would be food and board"

quinnox,As a Homeless person for many years of my adult life,I Have a Question for you.

Your Statement..."And you would get a minor amount of money for your work, but the bulk of your reward would be food and board"

My Question...Just How Many Fucking Months or Years would it Take for me to come up with enough money at YOUR pay Scale to rent a place for myself,have enough cash on hand to keep myself going till I found a Real Job?

1 Year?
2 Years?
5 Years?
A Decade?

The anwser is NO!! NOT ON YER FUCKIN LIFE!!! There is NO WAY I nor Anyone else I know would fall for this...Can you say Indebted Servetude?? Huh,Can You?

No,Not Just No,But Fuck NO!!!

Most insulting Idea put forth on DU this Year!

[quinnox]

83. It would be a temporary measure

It would not be meant to be a permanent solution. Some people have said it should be some kind of huge new community or Utopian style visions, that is much more ambitious than my idea, although very interesting.

[PJPhreak]

91. Dude...

You live in Portland...Go down to Burnside or Downtown and ask those that live on the streets what They Think...Bring a Fast bicycle,Yer gonna need a good "Getaway" ride!

You know what it costs to live where you do...So what,you gonna make these people that "Volunteer" for this "Program" live in Kansas,Indiana,Ohio or Michigan?

Because at what you are proposing to pay these people wont buy them a High quailty Tent!

Again...Most Ignorant Idea Put Forth On DU This Year!

Edit to Add: Google Unicor...You are proposing the "Public" version of Prison Labor!!

[quinnox]

99. That is what you think

Maybe I will survey some homeless people in fact. I bet at least half of them would love to get a clean shower or good clean place to sleep for the night or a good meal and some pocket money, and in return they just have to do some work for the day.

[PJPhreak]

135. Forget the bicycle....Yer gonna need a GSXR 1100!

How does this do anything but Perpetuate the problem? A good meal and "Pocket Change" any homeless person can come up with...Its called "Spangeing" AKA Panhandling!

How about some Real Anwsers...

A Real Living Wage.

A CCC or WPA style Program...Your roads in Or. are not the best,a LOT of Housing needs to be Repaired,Refurbished,Rebuilt.

Building some AFFORDABLE Housing?

Treatment Programs...Your City has one of the highest "Street Junkie" populations I have ever seen! trust me on this...Heroin is a REAL problem in your neck'o the woods!

Social Programs for Homeless Vets.

Real help/Housing for the Mentally Ill...Not just a Monthly check and a Kick in the Pants

Daycare...Self explanatory

Education...See Above.

Dude...I've "Been There,Done That" I live in Kansas But how do I Know about Burnside,The Saturday Market,Reed Collage Area and 37th and Hawthorne? Trust Me the last thing I want is "Just" a cot to sleep on and some "Pocket Change"

Thats Called The "Union Gospel Mission" You have One of those Already!

[quinnox]

141. I know you have been here before

I am familiar with all the areas you named and you are right, there are tons of homeless and drug users on the streets in my city.

That is part of the reason I had this idea, and was thinking about this.

I'm sure you have some good ideas too, and I think it would be great if they were put into place.

[PJPhreak]

144. Thank you,

My advice?

Go ask the homeless what THEY Need,Go spend some time getting to know some of these people on a personal level....Ya know by their First names,Find out how they got where they are and where the come from.

You may find out that they are not much different than you...only poorer

[Naturyl]

251. Well, better hope you get the "half" that doesn't include people like me.

Because if you proposed this shit to me when I was homeless, I'd bust you in the eye and get myself 3 hots and a cot down at County.

[LostinVA]

310. You are telling a long-term homeless person they are wrong?

:rofl:

Oh, hubris!

[Naturyl]

249. I agree, and with 7 years at DU, I'd say it's the most offensive I've ever seen.

"Fuck no" isn't a strong enough rebuke for this. I sincerely hope the OP will learn a lot from the reactions here.

[miscsoc]

69. Basically WPA = good, Dachau = bad

[tammywammy]

70. That's the worst idea I've heard in a while. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

71. Let us just say...

that somehow the democrats come up with an ideal way for this to work. A way which uplifts people. When it is taken to debate, the republicans will say there is no way they can support this. Eventually, a republican here or there will say "I can support this, but the logistics have to be handled by outsourcing, as private industry can do this cheaper". The democrats will do what they always do- capitulate. It will squeak through, then pretty soon the fine folks who provide housing and food for our troops will be in the "work camp" game. The same fine folks who have trouble providing potable water, who not only overinflate the cost of meals but overinflate the number of meals served, and who build the housing with shoddy wiring that electrocutes people. Sounds good, huh?

[county worker]

75. Please google Weedpatch Camp

[msanthrope]

353. Ah--the classics. Good suggestion in a thread of hysteria. n/t

[Raineyb]

492. What does that have to do with slavery again?

If people work for you you pay them with money. You don't make the bulk of their pay room and board with a "minor" amount of actual cash the way the OP suggested.

WTF is wrong with you?

[Raineyb]

493. Delete

Dupe

[KG]

81. epic.

[cornermouse]

89. Echoes of the past or Work camps and poor farms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorhouse

In early Victorian times (for Britain see Poor Law and workhouse), poverty was seen as a dishonourable state caused by a lack of the moral virtue of industriousness (or industry as it was called). As was depicted by Charles Dickens, a poorhouse or workhouse could resemble a reformatory and house children, either with families or alone, or a penal labour regime to give the poor work at manual labour and subject them to physical punishment. As the 19th century progressed, conditions became better.

The term is commonly applied to such a facility that housed the destitute elderly; institutions of this nature were widespread in the United States prior to the adoption of the Social Security program in the 1930s. Facilities housing indigents who are not elderly are typically referred to as homeless shelters, or simply "shelters," in current usage.

Often the poorhouse was situated on the grounds of a poor farm on which able-bodied residents were required to work; such farms were common in the United States in the 19th and early 20th centuries; it could even be part of the same economic complex as a prison farm and other penal or charitable public institutions.
---------------------------------------------
http://poorfarmexperiment.org/

Poor Farm History

A product of the nineteenth-century American Poor Farm System the Waupaca County Home was erected in 1876. Historically these were county government supported institutions. As an alternative to indentured labor, these working farms were populated with the region's destitute until approximately 1935 when the Social Security Act was established, marking the decline and ultimate dissolution of the poor farm system. During its time, poor farm residents were assigned inmate status and required to work under strict conditions in exchange for minimal living accommodations. The Poor Farm has a jail cell in the basement and a cemetery in the adjacent cornfield, underscoring the social and economic conditions defining the poor farm system.
----------------------------------------------
http://www.argenweb.net/greene/POORFARM/grecpofa.htm

At any rate, as controversy raged, it spilled over in the newspapers so the general public could get in on the matter. The Dec. 8 , 1919 ,issue of the Paragould Soliphone featured an article with a Grand Jury report. It seems that the County Court had instructed a grand jury to investigate the condition of the Court House, the Jail and the Poor Farm. The jury reported that the Court House and the Jail were generally satisfactory but that the sanitary conditions of the poor farm were most atrocious. From the report of the Grand Jury:

"We have also examined the county poor house and the inmates thereof . We found six old men ranging in the age from 64 to 86 years kept at the poor farm; and we regret to report that the general condition of everything pertaining thereto is in bad sanitary condition. The bed clothes are filthy ; and we desire to especially call attention to the court to the case of one inmate of this farm: He is 75 years old , and is suffering from paralysis; but is compelled to lie in a bed fit for no human being to occupy, while the bedbugs and other vermin literally play hide and seek over his person..."
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.poorhousestory.com/YATES_REPORT_ENTIRE.htm#940

Of the first class , according to the official reports and estimates received, there are, in this state, 6,896; and of the last , 15,215; making a grand total of 22,111 paupers. Among the permanent paupers, there are 446 idiots and lunatics; 287 persons who are blind; 928 who are extremely aged and infirm; 797 who are lame, or in such a confirmed state of ill health, as to be totally incapable of labor; 2604 children, under the age of 14 years of age, and 1789 paupers of both sexes, all of whom, though not in the vigor of life, may yet be considered capable of earning their subsistence, if proper labor were assigned, and suitable means used to induce them to perform it, and whose labor might produce at least 150,000 dollars annually to the state. Of the whole number of permanent paupers, the returns and estimates will warrant the assertions, that at least 1585 male persons were reduced to the state by the excessive use of ardent spirits; and of consequence, that their families, (consisting of 989 wives, and 2167 children,) were reduced to the same penury and want; thus presenting strong evidence of the often asserted fact, that “Intemperance has produced more than two-thirds of all the permanent pauperism in the state:” and there is little hazard in adding, that to the same cause may be ascribed more than one half of the occasional pauperism. Of the whole number of both classes of paupers, 10,523 are males, and 11,588 are females, (being an excess of 1065 female paupers 5883, including their children in that number, are either aliens or naturalised foreigners; and 16,228, including also their children, are native citizens.

There are 8753 children of both classes under 14 years of age, the greater number of whom is entirely destitute of education, and equally in want of that care and attention, which are so necessary to inculcate correct moral habits: It is feared that this mass of pauperism, will at no distant day form a fruitful nursery for crime, unless prevented by the watchful superintendance of the legislature.
---------------------------------------------------

You might want to rethink your proposal.

[BlueIdaho]

90. Interesting read, but what about FDRs Programs?

Just asking...

[cornermouse]

95. You're going to try to equate FDR's programs with workhouses?

You have got to be kidding.

[Bluebear]

126. See post 11, someone did and right away

[BlueIdaho]

173. This is not combat, I asked an honest question.

Your short history of workhouses was genuinely interesting. I was only wondering what your take was on FDRs programs.

I am sorry you can't take the question in the spirit it was asked.

[cornermouse]

312. Does the word dehumanization mean anything to you?

[BlueIdaho]

334. Does that mean you think FDRs programs = work houses and poor houses?

Does your answer mean you believe the WPA and the CCC are the same as work houses and poor houses of the 19th century?

[LostinVA]

336. Of course not, but the CCC isn't what the OP is advocating

[BlueIdaho]

338. Two things

First, I am aware of that, I was hoping we could engage in a broader conversation.

Second, I was genuinely interested in Cornermouse's opinion on FDRs programs. CM had written a very nice summary of work houses and poor houses and so my question. His response and yours makes it clear that reflexive knee jerk responses from entrenched positions are about all that DU is good for these days.

What a shame.

[LostinVA]

339. Post your own OP

And, I mean that sincerely. I've thought for a while the US needs to revive the CCC. I have a grandfather and great uncle who helped build the Skyline Drive in the CCC.

It's too bad the OP interested in that, but rather Poor Farm 2010.

[BlueIdaho]

340. Thank you

I will try to do that.

[LostinVA]

344. If you do, I'll post in it

[Hosnon]

415. +1 nt.

[cornermouse]

454. If....after reading the clippings I posted and others that I've seen

about poor farms and work houses, you cannot see the difference between them (abusive and dehumanizing) and FDR's program there's not much I can say or do that will convince you to see it as anything other than what you want to see it. To me, the whole thing is a no-brainer.

[LostinVA]

311. O.M.F.G.

[Waiting For Everyman]

93. "Are there no prisons? are there no workhouses?"

Please watch or read Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol". Rinse, repeat as necessary.

[ScarletFyre]

449. .

Please sir, I want some more!

[wickerwoman]

97. Why do you think people become homeless in the first place?

In my experience, with people who experience homelessness in the long term, it is either: a.) they legitimately can't work (because of disabilities or childcare commitments; e.g. the homeless, schizophrenic man I sometimes talk to at the bus stop) b.) they have a hard time finding work because of physical or mental restrictions on the kinds of jobs they can do (e.g. my cousin with epilepsy who can't drive or do most service jobs) c.) they have addiction issues or criminal records

Since most local employers with spare jobs to do have already chosen not to hire any of those people and pay them a decent wage, why on earth would they hire them through the camp system (other than to avoid paying them decent wages?)

So rather than spending tons of money on a paternalistic project like labor camps which assume the problem is "lack of job and life skills" rather than schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, mental retardation, being a single mother of young children, drug addiction or epilepsy, why don't we spend that money accepting that a certain percentage of us are just never going to be able to hold down eight hour a day jobs through no real fault of their own and deal with the actual things that are making them unemployable with a view towards raising their quality of life rather than shoehorning them back into an economic system that has already chewed them up and spit them out?

Isn't it more valuable to society for single mothers to *be* mothers than it is for them to clean toilets for $4 an hour?

Isn't it more productive (and probably in the long run, cheaper) to just show compassion to people in unfortunate situations than it is to supervise them in make-work jobs for which they are not really well suited?

[JonLP24]

455. #1 reason above all

why people are homeless is the lack of affordable housing. It is not uncommon at all for a homeless person to have a job. Other than that I don't have any other issues.

[a la izquierda]

98. jumpin' jesus on a popsicle stick

have you never head of haciendas and debt peons?
this is so disgusting and offensive.

[Political_Junkie]

100. My gawd!

This is awful.
I'll assume you didn't think this through entirely before posting. I'm sure your heart's in the right place.

[MineralMan]

101. Uff da! Let's go back to the turn of the 19th to 20th century,

shall we. They had those places back then. They were glorified prisons for poor people. Please read some history, then think about it.

[bobbolink]

104. I would LOVE to be captive in a labor camp!

Let me guess... this idea came from Faux Snooze, right?

[Bluebear]

125. But you'll get food as your "reward"!!

[smokey nj]

128. And a minor amount of money!

:woohoo:

[Hassin Bin Sober]

276. Gotta have some money so you can pay the fines.

[bobbolink]

131. I was thinking more of having to press the right lever, and barking correctly.

:hi:

Thanks... the only saving grace is that some of you are getting this... and understanding the mentality that we have to deal with on a daily basis.

For that reason, I am thankful for this thread, and will bookmark it.

People need to know this *is* the kind of attitude we are constantly confronted with.

[Naturyl]

254. Indeed, it's bookmarked by me also.

This is HUGH to me. To see this kind of shit on DU, where it could never have reared it ugly head even just a few years ago, speaks volumes about how our culture continues to be undermined by sociopathic, uncompassionate, and thoughtless values - even under the so-called "progressive" leadership of Obama and the corporate Repuke-lite Congress.

This thread has a lot of value in that sense.

[bobbolink]

480. Sorta like being the Bad Example to get people to understand just how

ridiculous it has beocme!

:hi:

[quinnox]

133. WTF, who ever said you would be a captive

Optional, look at the very first word in my post. It means you could go there and get help of your own free will!

No one would be required to go to my camps/work centers.

[Hugabear]

255. Okay, so how do you get to leave the labor camp?

If the bulk of your compensation is in the form of food and board, and you only get a "minor amount" of money, then how are these people supposed to earn enough to sustain themselves in the "real" world? There might not be prison guards ready to shoot them if they leave, but they're still stuck working in this labor camp.

[quinnox]

266. Anyone is free to leave my work centers at any time

They would get a severance package for successfully completing the program. It would be a nice amount of money to help them get back on their feet.

The amount of money they get would be determined by a few things such as the amount of time they spent working, how much work they accomplished, and if they caused no trouble (such as any crimes or infractions like disturbing the peace, etc.) and got along with people during their time in the work center/camp.

[LostinVA]

314. Why not just help them off the bat?

Your post shows this would be a punishment/slave labor situation.

[LostinVA]

315. Why not just help them off the bat?

Your post shows this would be a punishment/slave labor situation.

[Bluebear]

267. "MY camps/work centers" - YOUR camps? Hoo hah.

[LostinVA]

313. They would be rounding up every homeless, mentally ill, and other "marginal" folks they could

And Siemens and Krup would pay the local government mnoney for each slave laborer, and they would agre and get sick and die sooner or later, or kill themselves.

[Turborama]

277. Hey bobbolink, I have come across a YouTube channel you'll be interested in

I don't know how good your internet connection is but there's some new lengthy interviews in there that are real eye openers.

It's called "Invisible People TV"

Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/user/invisiblepeopletv

Unfortunately, the videos don't get nearly as many views as they deserve...

[bobbolink]

490. Thanks! I'm not where I can see them now, but have you bookmarked!

Thanks for keeping me in mind.... much appreciated. :hi:

[lunasun]

105. I will pray for your soul next May Day at Haymarket Sq

[EstimatedProphet]

140. Haymarket, in Boston?

[saracat]

114. Sorry but I can't even be courteous about this! Are you even aware of how many

homeless are educated people with masters degrees and higher who really "deserve" jobs? Or others are those with lifetimes of experience in trades who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own and also deserve employment? Are you even aware how many of us on DU are either homeless or could be so at any moment? You are an insulting pig and I really don't care if you think your heart is in the right place. You are an patronizing windbag. There but for the grace of god go you, and I certainly would like to see how you would fare in a place such as you designate. You are absolutely soulless to derive such a solution.

[lib2DaBone]

130. Welcome to Supply Side Amerika....

Workers with Masters degress hanging on the back of Garbage Trucks....

Not that there is anything wrong with working on a garbage truck.. it pays $12 an hour... but they are not hiring... there are 10 people applying for every job in Amerika..

I have a Masters Degree.. I would be glad to take that job.... anything to feed my family..

[saracat]

250. So would either my husband or myself , but you are correct.They aren't hiring

And if they were, they wouldn't hire us!

[bobbolink]

145. !

:loveya:

[Steely_Dan]

146. Is There Really...

...anything wrong with putting the unemployed to work, let's say on this country's failing infrastructure?

I'm not sure that the OP thought that this thread would take the direction it did. I think his heart is in the right place.

What if some of this bailout money was used to address unemployment, which most agree is the most serious issue we face. I see nothing wrong with an FDR type program that allows people to pay their bills, keep their homes and maintain some sort of dignity.

The whole poorhouse thing is a bit much. However, I imagine that there are plenty of people out there that would like to be gainfully employed instead of suffering the loss of their homes and their families.

Is that being heartless?

-PLA

[Naturyl]

256. No, his heart is in the wrong place, and here's why.

Blatant exploitation and indentured servitude are not acceptable "solutions" to ANYTHING. They just aren't.

The OP may want to help the homeless, but if he does, then he'd better get that straight first.

The way you help the homeless is with HOMES. Why does this even have to be said on DU? Good lord.

[Steely_Dan]

273. But Isn't Providing...

jobs a way of helping people keep their homes and maybe even purchasing one? Am I missing something?

-P

[Naturyl]

274. This doesn't provide "jobs," it provides exploitation.

I think you must be missing something, yes.

[FooshIt]

147. can we just give them money and let them work if they choose to

not force them to live in some special camp

[Oregone]

149. Sounds like something my Grandpa was in around early great depression time

He was troubled youth...capitalism killed his immediate kin so mostly on his own the older he got. There was some sort of work programs back in the day for younger folk at least through the government. I forgot what he called it.

[bobbolink]

154. It was the CCC, and people got PAID.

This is nothing but slave labor.

[tpsbmam]

151. You and Michael Savage.....you keep such distinguished company. Classy.

I can't believe I just fucking read this on DU!!!

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200806090014

Savage's answer to homelessness: "Why not put them in work camps?"
June 09, 2008 7:24 pm ET
Radio host Michael Savage responded to a caller's question about how Savage would address the "problem with the homelessness in this country" by asking, "Why not put them in work camps? Most of them are able-bodied." He went on to say that "since they're already receiving public assistance, I'd pay them nothing," and later asked, "Why do you have to pay a man who's right now living off the fat of the land?"

[bobbolink]

155. I'm so glad you're my friend!!

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::loveya::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[quinnox]

159. Oh, give me a break

How dare you compare my beautiful vision with something that Michael freakin' Savage ever said!

Now THAT is insulting.

[tpsbmam]

181. Um......you want to tell me how what you suggested is different from what Savage suggested? n/t

[asdjrocky]

182. You're beautiful vision?

You are just trying to insult people now.

I can't say what I really think of you Sir.

[Forkboy]

193. Almost seems like trolling at this point, doesn't it?

[asdjrocky]

199. Jesus God if it's not, I don't know what it is.

[Forkboy]

192. "my beautiful vision"

So much for me giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You don't get it all, even after all these responses. What a right dick.

[Hugabear]

253. Here's the title for the OP's new book: "Mein schöner Anblick"

Sorry if the translation isn't quite accurate, I used Babelfish.

[Bluebear]

343. It's perfect.

[Hugabear]

224. Neil Boortz has suggested the very same thing

He wants to take abandoned military bases and turn them into work camps for the homeless.

It's quite an accomplishment when you have a DUer aligning with two of the biggest hatemongers on the airwaves.

[Naturyl]

258. After reading the whole tread, I'm suspecting a mole.

If he's not a mole/troll, then God help him, because if he's confused enough to think that ideas of this kind belong on DU, then there's some serious-ass confusion going on.

[Naturyl]

257. If that doesn't cuase the OP to do 180 on this, nothing will. n/t

[wickerwoman]

158. How about mandatory work camps for the sociopathic greedheads who got us into this mess?

They could work on things like making license plates, sewing flags, office furniture, etc.

We could house them cost-effectively in small rooms, maybe sleeping on bunks for two to four and save money by clothing them all in jumpsuits... I'm thinking orange.

And we could teach them important job and life skills like ethics, empathy and civic responsibility.

[bobbolink]

162. !!!!!

:bounce: :applause: :bounce: :toast::bounce: :applause: :bounce: :toast::bounce: :applause: :bounce: :toast:

[tpsbmam]

184. Now THAT'S an idea I can get behind!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Naturyl]

259. Hehe, well done.

+100 to you.

[dflprincess]

164. Are you aware that many of the homeless do have jobs?

[Caretha]

169. The fact that this post

has been put forth on DU by a so called democrat is enough to make me re-evaluate if I really want to participate here anymore. After 9 fuckin' years here, I'm beginning to think that I don't belong. I know I certainly would never fit in with your kind of democrat. Puke...just fuckin' puke.

[rbrnmw]

189. It really sounds like something a tea bagger would suggest

Some compassionate conservative type program

[rbrnmw]

190. It really sounds like something a tea bagger would suggest

Some compassionate conservative type program

[rucky]

178. Why not just pay them?

And add an EEOC incentive to employers who hire the homeless.

[asdjrocky]

183. Do you realize-

You will now be forever known as quinnox, the guy who wants to put poor and homeless people in work camps.

Can you honestly be okay with that?

[Naturyl]

260. Can you say DU implosion?

It's more pathetic than the Repuke trolls and moles who get pizza. This guy actually thinks his idea was "Democratic."

[asdjrocky]

346. It's a beautiful vision you know.

We're just not advanced enough to see it.

[Juche]

187. Food and shelter are relatively cheap

The shelter would likely be dorm type shelter, or some kind of shelter with little privacy and multiple people in an enclosed area. That really isn't expensive. Housing 20 people in a dorm, or housing 5 people in a 2 bedroom apartment isn't that expensive.

If the shelter involves people sharing bedrooms, and the food involves things like bulk purchased and bulk cooked foods, then you can provide food and shelter for about $250 a person per month. Probably cheaper.

So if you have people working to pay that, they are getting paid far less than the minimum wage of $7.25. After taxes, you'd only need to work about 40 hours a month to earn $250 at the minimum wage.

Let people create $2000/month in wealth through their labors, then pay them $250/month in basic foodstuffs and shelter with little privacy isn't going to work. The jobs would have to be part time (10-15 hours a week, max) to make it fair. It'd also create an incentive for employers to fire their employees who get benefits, wages, vacations, etc. and replace them with homeless people who work for $250/month worth of food and shelter with no benefits to speak of.

Trading labor for rent isn't a bad idea (I've seen people on craigslist offer it) but it has to be one where you get a decent deal in return.

[Hannah Bell]

191. "Simple tasks" don't develop skills. "Room and board" doesn't provide savings to allow people

to move on.

Room & board + hard labor = slave system

slave system takes real jobs away from others

fuck that

[unapatriciated]

196. It's not a new a idea and still disgusting.

That's one reason unions were formed and they fought against this crap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfp2O9ADwGk

[bobbolink]

486. I'm reading a biography of Mother Jones right now, and you are soooo right.

It is amazing how many want to drag us (and I mean us poor folk) back to those horrible times.

We haven't done a very good job of educating people about the actual realities, and working to build compassion among those who lack a heart.

It is our job to do! :hi:

[donco6]

200. Recced just for exposure.

Ideas this mind-bogglingly bad need to be seen to be believed.

[Hugabear]

203. I have an even better idea - let's just shove them into concentration camps!

Oh, they'll work, don't worry about that.

:sarcasm:

[quinnox]

205. Yea, right

My work centers would be optional, first come first serve.

You would get a good clean place to stay for a while, and it would be comfortable. Plus room and board, so good food to eat.

And at the end of the stay you would get a nice monetary reward for completing the program.

Once again,Duers have turned a beautiful dream into an ugly nightmare!

No, my dream remains intact, and I reject the twisting of it!

[Naturyl]

262. "First come, First served? Holy crap...

Not a thought to actually housing the homeless, eh? Better report early to your work camps to get the "goodies" or do without, I guess.

Oh boy. I'll be there bright and early to do $100 worth of work for $40 worth of payment. What a deal, especially when the alternative (ala "first come, first served") is to freeze. Progressive thinking at its finest.

[LostinVA]

318. hahahahahahahaha

Something is twisted, alright.....

[bobbolink]

487. !!

:rofl: :bounce: :rofl:

:yourock:

[RainDog]

321. Barbara Bush, is that you?

with your beautiful dream that just cannot be bothered by others' exploitation?

that thought those who were relocated to Texas after Katrina had never had it so good after they lost their homes, their neighborhoods, and their very loved ones' lives?

You are advocating the current Chinese system, in which the poor are locked up at night after working for substandard wages. And the current Chaquita system in Latin America, in which people labor at gun point (because they're so scary) and paid substandard wages - and against whom those workers have no rights in American courts, even tho it is American companies engaging in slave labor overseas -

that's what you are talking about, basically.

I'm beginning to wonder if the class war will have to go hot for some people to get a fucking clue.

[Naturyl]

204. Is this a joke?

It's got to be - and yet I suspect it isn't.

"Work camps?" Wow... I can't find words. Good thing I had a light lunch.

[OhioChick]

206. My thoughts exactly. n/t

[asdjrocky]

207. It's his beautiful vision!

Leave quinnox alone!

[quinnox]

209. I just did another comment to the previous reply

And it was twisted into an ugly nightmare instead of my beautiful vision.

Most of the Duer's (with a few notable exceptions) completely missed the point and the essence of my proposal, and turned it into some kind of cheap horror movie about Nazi death camps or work camps.

[asdjrocky]

215. So it's our fault we can see your beautiful vision?

Seriously really? You still don't see what is wrong with this?

[donco6]

226. Did it ever occur to you they're right and you're horribly, terribly wrong?

Not even a little?

[quinnox]

231. I considered it

And then I saw all the nightmarish and horror movie like interpretations of my plan, and knew they didn't get it. I take some blame for it, not expressing myself clearly or deeply enough.

Just because they had things (like poorhouses or work farms) that sound kind of like my idea in the past, doesn't mean my idea is a bad one or not different enough that it would not be like those failed attempts.

[Pithlet]

351. They aren't just "kinda like" your idea. They ARE your idea.

Your "beautiful vision" has been done. Crack a few history books open. See for yourself. People aren't giving you guff for no reason.

[cate94]

319. How is it that so many just can't see your beautiful dream?

Since you seem to keep missing the point, I'll try to explain it slowly: utopian visions turn into real nightmares.

Your best intentions are on par with lovely historical truths that you just want to ignore. Sorry to tell you historical truths don't go away. Poor houses, poor farms, work camps, company farms existed and they were hell. I'd bet the people who came up with the idea of a poor farm didn't intend for them to be horrific, but they were.

Seriously. Someone up thread tells you that Michael Savage suggested the very same thing and you got mad at them for the comparison. The fact that Michael Savage said it should be enough to make you rethink your proposal. Instead you get huffy and pretend outrage. Um, honey, one of the biggest assholes of the right wing noise machine is spouting the same crap. Just because you painted your pile with pretty intentions and put a bow on it doesn't make it better, it is still a pile of crap.

Your proposal is based on myths about the homeless population.
Your proposal is dehumanizing.
Your proposal has been tried and failed.

[TZ]

326. I swore I would never do this BUT...

Hitler said he had a beautiful vision too. YOu know that a lot of the work camps that he made were because Germany had a really weak economy and it was supposed to "help" people. The road to hell is paved with "good intentions"... BTW, you realize don't you that many many MANY homeless are mentally ill and your proposal would just make bad situations for them WORSE. It would essentially become a refugee camp for "crazy people".

[Dinger]

212. Same Here

Wow

[TheKentuckian]

214. Cool you created indentured servitude and destroy actual jobs and wages

by giving companies a dirt cheap way to do their labor, not accounting for the prison state they already utilize.

Voluntary penitentiary, what a brilliant idea.

May God show you the light.

Holy fuck, this is the "liberal" solution, huh?

I guess the TeaPubliKlans will call for harvesting body parts and decreasing the surplus population for the good of "productive" people.

The past is forgotten and is repeated. What the fuck did we accomplish over the past hundred years? Fucking work camps! Jesus.

[Hugabear]

216. Hey, at least we could bring back all those jobs to America!

Let's replace cheap labor overseas with cheap labor here in the US! FUCK YEAH. Where do I sign up for this?

[havocmom]

222. That's important to corporate empire, now that Chinese workers want to get paid

The powers that be crashed our economy. It is not just about wages. Regulations are part of the reason things went off shore. Trash US economy for the masses enough and workers will be begging Congress to abolish environmental and worker protections, ANYTHING, just give us some work for some slop and a crust of bread!

It's all 'optional' and all, so it would be OK.

Oh, didn't I read that Obama admin spends more on polling than bush/cheney did? Why, yes I did
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/29/obama-mocks-polls-but-spe_n_663553.html

seems many have fingers in the wind to test for just how hungry Americans are getting. This OP might just be such a finger.

[Naturyl]

263. Thank you.

You addressed it as it deserves to be addressed.

FDR, JFK, and MLK are puking in their graves at the sight of this in 2010.

[havocmom]

218. come on people, K & R . Let all see this advocates for indentured servitude on Greatest

It's all pragmatic 'n stuff. All new DEM instead of New Deal Dem. Yea for the corporate empire! Indentured servitude will solve unemployment and homelessness by making us all unemployed, homeless and eager to be slaves!

Joy, there will be 'security' in the bunkhouses. No one has ever heard of abusive task managers appealing to the worst of some humans to beat compliance into the rest of the humans!

I hope to hell my old psych teacher is long dead. Memories from all that time he spent undercover in the migrant farm labor camps in Delano back in the 60s would come back to haunt him reading advocacy for work camps. He might have flash backs of the 7 hours he spend hiding in the shit-hole under the latrines when the company goons rousted the workers, tore up the bunk houses, molested several women trying to find the two outsiders documenting the abuse. They would have killed the two outsiders, and the workers damned well knew it, so as a group, they endured hours of abuse from the 'security' to protect the two men gathering evidence to help Cesar make the case for farm labor protection.

Jesus Mary & Joseph, the corporate empire really does want to destroy the economy to the point that Americans will need the 'option' of work camps.

Rec this mother to the greatest page that more can see just what sort of thinking passes for Democratic these days!

[donco6]

228. +1

[Naturyl]

265. Milgram experiment, anyone?

How does this not devolve into abject hell in 6 months or less?

Good grief... appalling. I can't get over it. So asinine and evil.

[Dinger]

225. Oh My Fucking Gawd, I've Seen It All (nt)

[asdjrocky]

230. I'm really laughing out loud right now.

Honest.

[Hugabear]

232. Out of sight, out of mind

Yep, let's just sweep all those disgusting homeless bums off the street, and herd them into "work camps" so that us civilized folks don't have to look at them. Seriously, don't you just feel disgust when you see some homeless guy standing on the side of a road with a "HOMELESS VET, HUNGRY" sign? Don't you just want to puke when some smelly homeless person bumps into you on the sidewalk? You've hit on the PERFECT SOLUTION to the homeless problem.


:sarcasm: <=== for the satire impaired ;)

[scheming daemons]

241. We used this economic model in the south until the 1860s... didn't work out so well

... can't believe someone posted this.

[Hugabear]

242. Hey, some of those slaves had very nice masters and lived pretty good lives

I've actually heard repuke types make that argument before.

[noamnety]

252. Hell, I've heard DUers make that argument before. (nt)

[Amonester]

275. Have you ever thought about the possibility of your "optional"

not remaining "optional" forever (to begin with)?

I'm just trying to help you in "getting" just a little bit...uh... "smarter" (if that is even just a little bit...uh...possible).

Wisen up.

[spoony]

278. Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

Honestly, get ready to be visited by three ghosts. Sincerely, Tiny Tim.

[cynatnite]

279. And there can be stores where smokes and condoms are sold for $10 a pack. n/t

[OneGrassRoot]

281. My first unrecommend, with no hesitation. Unbelievable. n/t

[Morning Dew]

282. Thank God for simple tasks that are still hard work !

We wouldn't want to mollycoddle them with easy work or tax their brains with complicated tasks.

Be sure to require your workers to be present during the sunny days of Summer lest you suffer a rush of idle vagabonds come the cooler nights of Autumn.


Good luck with your beautiful vision!


P.S. You may wish to live off premises... safer that way.

[LostinVA]

283. Good idea! And, they should have to wear black triangles, too n/t

[LostinVA]

296. Do you make your weekend guests go out and break some rocks in your backyard?

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

298. Brilliant idea! The Pharama companies can experiment in teh camps!

You know, use the homelss as guinea pigs. They can receive a bigger ration of food for their voluntary assistance in medical experiments.

I am emailing Pfizer and Watson right now.

[quaker bill]

302. I do not think

you have met, spent time with, and socialized with these people. Having done so for 20+ years, I cannot imagine how such an approach would possibly work.

[Shining Jack]

309. Sigh !

First they came for the homeless and I didn't speak up because I wasn't homeless.
Then they came for...Who's next ? It could be you.

[pecwae]

316. Oh my.

How embarrassing for you.

[LostinVA]

317. Another idea: Hugo Boss can make the uniforms like they did during WW II

So, they can make them for teh NEW SS... err.... camp guards. The Homeless can work in their factories, and if they do a good job, they won't be flogged.

[RetroLounge]

320. OMFG!

DU has finally become FR...

:puke:

RL

[JohnnyBoots]

333. Who needs camps, they can just hang out front of Home Depot and get the same gig. nt

[spinbaby]

335. I have a better idea

It's called fair wages and affordable housing.

[asdjrocky]

342. I woke this morning hoping this was all a bad dream.

It wasn't.

[joeybee12]

345. Gee, I guess affordable housing and jobs is a dumb idea, right? n/t

[treestar]

347. It would be better just to have the housing and food

just provided outright, with assistance in locating jobs from the runners of the place.

One right wing meme that it could prove wrong is the one about how the homeless choose to be homeless.

[Occulus]

473. So you half-agree with the idea

WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE

[Enrique]

349. excellent idea

excellent!

[mtnester]

350. I appreciate the Mods keeping this open so that the DU community can take care of this

themselves.

I though I had seen it all...but that was just school yard que es mach macho crap

This? Needs a new word to describe.

[Hosnon]

352. The responses to this are extremely disappointing.

The OP seems to be a good faith suggestion to help the homeless.

While it might be a bad idea, the DU dog pile is very, very disappointing.

[asdjrocky]

361. No.

You really should read the whole thing before you come to the defense of this person.

His camp? His beautiful vision? This is just plain sick and wrong headed and everyone but maybe 3 people realize that.

Doesn't that tell you something?

[Hosnon]

362. I'm referring to the reaction to the OP.

But after reading his responses throughout the thread, I'm shocked that he has been able to remain so civil.

Be clear that I'm not defending the idea or the OP (per se). I just like to think that DU is a place where ideas can be presented and vetted without the kind of reaction we are seeing here (as it greatly discourages future presentations of ideas - some of which might have merit).

But carry on I suppose.

ETA Skinner's ideal: "A Democratic Underground where thoughtful discussion can take place among a broad range of progressive viewpoints, where everyone accepts that disagreements are both necessary and appropriate when they are expressed in good faith, and where problem people are dealt with in a fair and timely fashion."

[Pithlet]

365. I think a good part of the reaction is the fact the OP doesn't seem to be getting it.

Yes, more than a few have reacted rather strongly, but really it's understandable given history. But he's responded to more than a few thoughtful explanations from posters who gave the benefit of the doubt and still the poster persists. Someone who's genuine might take the opportunity to wonder why they're getting that reaction instead of reacting defensively, IMO.

[asdjrocky]

368. The reaction was right on.

Right where it needed to be. Actually, I thought a lot of people should great restraint.

By your logic, all ideas, no matter how bad are up for discussion right?

How about we just eat the poor? Should we open that idea up for discussion? Would people be justified in finding my beautiful vision of feeding the hungry with the hungry offensive?

You are way off base and you don't even know it. I find that sad.

[Pithlet]

372. Exactly. Sometimes bad ideas are instituted in good faith, and go horribly wrong.

It can't be stressed strongly enough how horrible an idea like the OP's is, and it's too bad if it hurts their feelings.

[Hosnon]

378. It should be stressed strongly.

I'm certainly not saying otherwise. But opinions can be stressed strongly without being disagreeable. And, in fact, being able to do so is the best way to show someone why they are wrong and win them over.

[Pithlet]

379. Sometimes disagreeable is the way to go. Sometimes the opposition is disagreeable.

You don't always have to play nice. Look, I can understand if someone wanted to give the OP the benefit of the doubt in the beginning. I myself definitely no longer did after the first few time he/she refused to see the point. When they persisted in their "beautiful vision?" Eh. I no longer find the need to be agreeable with that. It's your choice if you want to be and that's fine, but it's perfectly understandable in my mind to fight disgusting with disagreeable. YMMV

[Hosnon]

380. I don't see anything wrong with that. Trolls, when identified as such, don't deserve

to be treated like the rest of us.

But my personal belief is that the idea was proposed in good faith and he has been backed into a corner (and becoming defensive in that situation is just human nature). However, he does need to recognize that his idea might have serious problems. Has anyone thoughtfully and politely explained those to him?

[Pithlet]

384. I do understand your point. I do think it has been thoughtfully explained in this thread.

I do agree that there's nothing wrong with attempting to get a point across without attacking. It can just make people dig their heals in. I've seen times on DU where I thought people were dog piled and it just wasn't necessary. I agree with that philosophy in general. Given the constraint of DU rules I'll just put it this way. I think it's understandable that some might not want to give the benefit of the doubt, here. I think it's reasonable either way.

[Hosnon]

388. It's definitely bound to happen. In response to another poster in this sub-thread, I acknowledged

that I would have a hard time presuming good faith if a DUer suggested we eat the homeless. But...I would hope that fellow DUers would step in and tap the breaks a bit if I reacted inappropriately.

Hopefully, the OP can take two things away from this thread: (1) what is wrong with his idea and (2) that he can vet his views on DU. Unfortunately, I doubt he'll take away the latter. And that's ultimately why a more civil tone is needed: had he not posted, he would not have given the rest of DU the chance to let him know what is wrong with his idea.

[Pithlet]

393. True, but I do think if someone is truly sincere about wanting to help

and is actually serious about wanting to vet and exchange ideas, they aren't going to let a few flames lobbed their way stop them. They've probably been on the internet long enough by now to know how it goes. If it's scared them off, then how committed were they?. If they're trolling then they got what they came for. So I guess win/win, if you want to put a positive spin on it :)

[Hosnon]

399. To a point.

Asking someone to remain civil in response to an uncivil attack on their good faith idea is asking a lot (but it's not impossible - it's the Gold Standard for internet discussions in my opinion).

I consider myself a seasoned veteran when it comes to internet discussions but I still hesitated when I responded here because I knew that I might simply be placed in the crossfire. And I've had some doozies here that I'd rather forget ... but each one taught me a lot about myself and areas I need to work on.

[Pithlet]

401. It's also asking a lot to expect people not to react negatively to the tern "work camps"

Really. Good faith or not. Hello, hornet's nest. How can anyone with even a basic knowledge of elementary school level/middle school history not know better?

[quinnox]

402. I'll admit that was not the best term

I should have called them work centers or work cooperatives.

I was hasty in using "work camps" and it brought on negative and evil images to the minds of many people of my idea.

[Pithlet]

404. If you think it was just the term, you're mistaken.

Your very idea is bad. For all the reasons that have been laid out for you in this thread.

[Hosnon]

416. Help me square #401 and #404.

The term is part of the problem but changing the term wouldn't help solve part of the problem?

ETA: The OP didn't state that changing the term would solve the whole problem.

[Pithlet]

429. What is so difficult to understand that's it's exploitation? Whatever one chooses to call it?

If they're working, pay them a wage, preferably a living one. If you want to include room and board along with it, okay, that's great. But isn't okay to exploit them for cheap labor and ignore labor laws. I'm not sure what there is to square, here. I mean, that's it. Maybe that's why it was so difficult for many to see the "good faith" Provide room and board, but make them labor for it? Um. No.

[Hosnon]

433. What? When did I ever claim that it isn't exploitation? Or that it is exploitation?

You might have me confused for someone else.

You stated that the term was poorly chosen because it has negative connotations. He responded that he agrees that the term was a poor choice. And then you responded to him that the problem isn't just the term.

The guy can't win for losing.

[Pithlet]

394. True, but I do think if someone is truly sincere about wanting to help

and is actually serious about wanting to vet and exchange ideas, they aren't going to let a few flames lobbed their way stop them. They've probably been on the internet long enough by now to know how it goes. If it's scared them off, then how committed were they?. If they're trolling then they got what they came for. So I guess win/win, if you want to put a positive spin on it :)

[Hosnon]

376. Ideally, yes.

Personally, I would have a hard time giving someone the benefit of any doubt regarding good faith if they proposed that we eat the poor. But as an adult, there is a proper way to respond.

[U4ikLefty]

443. Personally, I would have a hard time giving someone the benefit of any doubt regarding good faith if

they don't show thier profile.

[Hosnon]

444. Is that directed at me? nt.

[asdjrocky]

456. I feel the saem about anyone who sugguest we put them in work camps.

You're being intentionally obtuse.

[Hosnon]

457. How so?

I'm simply trying to be honest. And it seems clear to me that anyone who tries to be the same would acknowledge that the original idea was likely proposed in good faith.

Instead, there are repeated references to indentured servitude - which by definition requires a set term of service in the future to pay off an incurred debt - and comparisons to forced labor camps - despite the clear qualification that the camps would be optional.

The OP missed the mark in some major ways but the responses here are borderline disingenuous and definitely counter productive regarding encouraging honest debate.

[Morning Dew]

448. Skinner's ideal wasn't met in that there was no progressive viewpoint in the OP.

That in mind, I didn't think the reactions to the OP were off base at all.

[Hosnon]

458. Helping the homeless?

That seems like a progressive goal to me. And that seems to me to be at the heart of this flawed idea.

[noamnety]

363. A dogpile against a beautiful vision of "optional" sweat shops

is okay by me.

The OP could have shut it down themselves by acknowledging that they had a moment of stupidity and regret posting the idea, instead of acting outraged that people correctly pointed out it's a right wing idea to exploit the homeless.

They could have said "you know what? I was drunk and my ex snuck in a tape of Michael Savage and played it while I was sleeping. I have no other explanation of why I would have suggested that the homeless should be grateful and jump at the chance to be exempted from minimum wage laws."

They could have said "Fuck, I was smoking crack again and looked away and my asshole cat walked across my key board and typed a bunch of letters and what are the odds this is the combination they came up with?"

They could have explained that their asshole cat holds some very negative and destructive stereotypes about the homeless due to being raised in a bad colony of feral cats, but they don't have the heart to take it to a shelter and they'll make sure it doesn't post again.

They could have alerted the mods themselves and asked to have it deleted.

But no, the OP chose to defend it. Repeatedly.

[Hosnon]

366. I think we have a responsibility here to give each other a presumption of good faith.

And even that presumption notwithstanding, I do think that the idea was proposed in good faith. Perhaps it wasn't, in which case I would likely view this differently (I don't know the OP's history).

[quinnox]

367. You are correct

My idea was written in good faith and came from compassion. Yet I am painted as the Devil for having thoughts on helping these people. Then it was twisted into a nightmare by super-negative mind sets of some Duer's.

[asdjrocky]

369. Poor baby.

Maybe you should lay down in your bed, that is in your house and take a nap.

[LostinVA]

375. Except your "beautiful vision" isn't compassionate

It's nightmarish, and unfortunately, it's been done many times before.

[noamnety]

374. It's hard for me to see the good faith in exempting the poor from minimum wage laws

and withholding their pay until they "complete" a term of service.

[Hosnon]

419. I don't see that exemption or withholding requirement in the OP. Which post did he state that in?

ETA: I found the withholding requirement: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8842321&mesg_id=8844093

[Raineyb]

494. There is no presumption of good faith when one suggests

slavery as a way to "help" the homeless. There isn't. As was explained to you earlier, if one works one gets a wage, and if you include room and board so much the better but to dangle room and board in exchange for work and no wages? That's not compassion, there's no good faith, it's blatantly advocating slavery and there's nothing about that that can be taken in "good faith."

[Hosnon]

499. I think you have me confused with the OP.

But your reply is nothing more than disingenuous hyperbole.

The OP's idea is voluntary (i.e., by definition not slavery) and there is no set term one must work if one opts in (i.e., by definition not indentured servitude).

Even if there's no presumption of good faith, there at least should be a responsibility not to completely misrepresent another DUer's statements.

[Greyhound]

406. LOL!

They could have said "Fuck, I was smoking crack again and looked away and my asshole cat walked across my key board and typed a bunch of letters and what are the odds this is the combination they came up with?"
:rofl:

That's the bright spot I was looking for today. Now, I can go do what I'm avoiding by polluting my mind with the nonsense posted here. Thank you.
:hi:

[Hugabear]

441. The fact he kept referring to it as "my beautiful vision" didn't help either

Hence my suggestion for the title of his book somewhere up thread.

[quinnox]

364. Thanks for noticing

I am called Hitler and so on for daring to have an idea to help homeless people, its mind boggling.

Some Duer's are apparently so full of negativity that all they can think about are nightmares and turn everything into one, like ramming a square peg into a round hole.

[Hosnon]

371. Hey man don't drag me down with you. Keep a safe distance...

:evilgrin:

But, seriously, I would prefer to see good faith ideas handled civilly, regardless of merit.

[LostinVA]

377. Lots of use think a new CCC is a good idea, but your idea is slave labor and nothing else

You aren't advocating helping the homeless, but using them, and making sure they STAY homeless and exploiting.

Ever heard of the Truck System?

[wickerwoman]

400. Or maybe they believe

that those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it.

You've set out an idea in good faith. Fair enough, I'll give you that.

Many, many people have explained why it is wrong.

Where you have not shown good faith is in following up their explanations. Do you actually know why most homeless people are homeless? What their situation is? Have you done more research since you've written this thread? Because many people who *are* homeless, are close to being homeless or who have worked with the homeless for years have pointed out that your idea is unworkable. That's not "negativity". It's someone who knows a hell of a lot more about the issue than you do trying to educate you.

Have you gone back and researched the history of poor camps in the US? Have you looked at how your idea differs fundamentally from the CCC? Have you considered the possible negative impact it will have on local wages?

You have not responded in good faith, showing real understanding of any of these perfectly valid concerns. And in that sense your idea lacks intellectual rigor.

Most people have not questioned your intentions in posting this. But continuing to push for this idea without really engaging with any of the criticism will turn good faith into bad.

[Greyhound]

403. WTF?

It might be a bad idea? Are you out of your mind?

Did you read his "defense" of this abomination?

[Hosnon]

407. Nope, just not certain.

Holdover from Logic 101 I suppose. I rarely ever speak categorically.

But it's not the idea that I'm taking issue with, it's the reaction by most DUers who are responding (your "WTF?" post being a good example). I don't think it's that difficult to discuss things in a reasonable manner.

ETA: Philosophy 101 is more like it, specifically Descartes (ha! :eyes: ). Logic 101 actually helps you figure out what few things you can claim with certainty (given certain premises - which isn't worth much actually ... turtles all the way down).

[Greyhound]

411. So what, in your estimation, should the reaction to the idea of a return

to indentured servitude (with no term, BTW) for the poor be?

This proposition was not created in a vacuum, this has been done many times before and the results are always inhumane at best.

[Hosnon]

414. Suggest a modification, perhaps? As the more reasonable respondents to the OP

have done?

I'm beginning to think the OP was nothing worse than a misguided but good faith proposal for something like the CCC. Sure it needs some work but he's probably not Hitler (as so many have implied).

[Greyhound]

427. Which brings us back to my first reply, "did you read his defenses of this?"

He is not looking for, nor inclined to accept, any discussion he seems to be convinced that this is a good idea.

[Hosnon]

428. I've tried to read through it all - gotten through most of it.

And he seems to be willing to change his original proposal. However, I haven't seen him acknowledge the faults of his original proposal.

[Lucian]

370. This sounds eerily familiar...

how did that work out in the past? Oh, wait, it didn't. :eyes:

OP fail.

[Greyhound]

382. Well this thread certainly got the trolls out from under their bridge.

My God, that his wasn't locked in minutes speaks volumes about how far DU has fallen...

[mdmc]

386. shit throw in medical treatment and I would go

we already have job corps..

[quinnox]

389. You got it - I decided free medical care in the work centers

I thought about this some more, and decided all people in the work centers would get free medical care while they are there.

[mdmc]

392. I would be willing to give up my flat and 35k job

for housing, food, clothing, and medical treatment. (I am very sick and would love to have access to medical care - thats medical care, not access to medical insurance, which I have plenty of)..

[unapatriciated]

440. sounds like our prison system.

damn you are thick. My father and grandfather did not fight for organized labor just to see their descendants shipped off to work camps. You enjoy many benefits because they took a stand.
Thank you masser, you are so much wiser than us common folk.

[LooseWilly]

397. Have you heard of serfdom?

" You would get a place to sleep, food to eat, and bathrooms with showers for being in the work camp and doing your job. And you would get a minor amount of money for your work" ... I'm guessing you're not talking about putting these people up in a Howard Johnsons, or feeding them at TGIFs... sounds more like prison-like dormitories are what you're suggesting (except without the locks, or the guards... and probably no police-response-expectations... so more like the Acorn projects of West Oakland...) and, by "minor amount of money" you probably mean... let me just guess... something like 100 rupees a day? 200?

Are you sure this isn't some sort of scheme to try to use the "desperation" of the homeless to undercut Indian, Chinese, Malaysian, and Guatemalan sweat shop labor costs?

Come to think of it... I think a lot of prisons already use prisoners for labor and pay them some little way-below-minimum-wage monies, and give them showers and a place to sleep... making this idea sound like a "humanitarian" prison system that could, down the road, be used to bust the prison guard unions. Hmm- seen in that light, I think I'm in. :tinfoilhat:

[VMI Dem]

398. Can we put 'em in the box if they act up?

Caught short here boss.

[Starry Messenger]

408. There is so much wealth squandered in this country.

I read an anti-Bush/Iraq War cartoon back in 2004 that gave statistics on what we could buy with the money we piss down that rat-hole. One suggestion was a house for every single homeless person in the United States. Yes, even six years ago that was how much we had spent, it was more than enough to outright buy houses for people who needed one! Think now to today! There is absolutely NO REASON for there to be homeless people in this country. The idea that we should give them a pittance of survival needs in exchange for labor is just shameful.

[flvegan]

409. THE ARISTOCRATS!!!

[asdjrocky]

410. Best. Joke. Ever.

And a perfect punchline for this thread.

[Ignis]

446. =^o^=

:spray: :rofl:

Man, if this guy's fucking with us, he's good.

[beam me up scottie]

412. I thought it was the pain meds but it appears I am actually on DU.

We look after several homeless vets and even though they don't have much, they still have their dignity. Your proposal would rob them of even that.

Your "charity" is no better then that offered by the bitches at the Jeebus Center down the street who make them attend bible classes and church so they can eat out-dated Walmart food and sleep on flea-bitten cots. If they want to stay longer, they have to turn over their monthly housing allowance and sell them their food stamps for pennies on the dollar.

Ugh.

[Matariki]

418. Sounds like a cheap labor scheme - unless the compensation is fair.

[chillspike]

421. I prefer work camps for the rich

[Ignis]

432. Did the idea come to you while in the shower(s)?

Even if your intentions were 100% O8), talk about tone-deaf :evilfrown:!

[Name removed]

434. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

438. WTF are you talking about?

[Bluenorthwest]

436. vile, fetid op

[Hugabear]

442. I found a sign that you can use for your "beautiful" work camp

[Steely_Dan]

447. Geeze...What A Thread

I must have missed something. I assumed the best intent from the OP. This is some of the most vicious responses I have ever read. I've never seen a thread go off on such tangents.

I might have read the OP wrong...and perhaps his wording could have been better. I sort of assumed that he was referring to programs not unlike what FDR implemented.

Just a question...
Is what FDR put into place equivalent to "death camps" or "poor houses."

I will happily admit my lack of knowledge in this area.

-PLA

[Hugabear]

450. The OP was describing his "beautiful vision", ie labor camps

The way the OP would run his camps would really be exploiting the homeless for cheap labor. The majority of their "earnings" would be in the form of room & board, and they would only earn a tiny percentage of their pay in actual cash. Seems like a system designed to keep them locked in a vicious circle.

It didn't really help matters much the way the OP kept returning to defend his idea, even calling it "my beautiful vision", and at one point referring to the camps as "my camps".

[Steely_Dan]

467. I See...

I understand better now. Thanks.

[LostinVA]

452. How is the CCC anything like what the OP advocates?

I personally think we were very easy on the OP, especially after he continued to advocate work camps and exploiting the homeless.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

503. You mean besides the part about optional work camps for the homeless?

[LostinVA]

453. How is the CCC anything like what the OP advocates?

I personally think we were very easy on the OP, especially after he continued to advocate work camps and exploiting the homeless.

[Name removed]

459. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asdjrocky]

464. Bootstraps?

What if you can't sing?

[smokey nj]

465. Do you think an interpretive dance routine would suffice?

[asdjrocky]

466. Well,

You know how those poor folks love to sing and dance.:eyes:

[smokey nj]

468. Most of the poor folks I know prefer to be paid cash in exchange for their labor.

[asdjrocky]

469. Smokey, that is just so 20th century. nt

[smokey nj]

470. I'm just an old fashioned girl, rocky.

[backscatter712]

471. Victorian England used to do that.

While it wasn't the murderous catastrophe that Germany's concentration camps were, England's poorhouses were still quite cruel, degrading and humiliating.

Read all about it in anything written by Charles Dickens.

I'll take a pass, thank you...

[suffragette]

472. In Jonathan Swift's time, many people wrote and endorsed

similar proposals to yours.
Those, too, were put forth in earnest and logical sounding terms.
And most of us are familiar with his response in "A Modest Proposal" though perhaps you may want to read or re-read it.

Many people have also pointed out the brutal and vile history of work camps, workhouses, houses of industry under their various names.
There is a reason these were abolished. To propose them again is appalling.

In this case some Wiki pages actually provide a good collection of info about the history of these laws and conditions and why they are no more the answer today than they were in the past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workhouse

According to historian Simon Fowler, workhouses were "largely designed for a pool of able-bodied idlers and shirkers ... However this group hardly existed outside the imagination of a generation of political economists".<12> It had long been accepted that a proportion of the population would be unable to support itself, and would have to be provided for. Before 1830, most parishes provided outdoor relief, a system of cash payments made to the poor on an ad hoc basis in times of need. However, the economic downturn following the end of the Napoleonic Wars in the early 19th century had resulted in increasing numbers of unemployed, coupled with developments in agriculture that meant less labour was required on the land. The increasing numbers of those seeking relief put existing systems under strain, and it was suspected that poor relief was being widely abused. Therefore, in 1832, the government established a Royal Commission to investigate and recommend how relief could best be given to the poor.<13>
Southwell Workhouse
In 1824, the Minster town of Southwell, Nottinghamshire, England constructed their workhouse for the surrounding parish which would additionally cater for the able-bodied poor; these people would no longer be eligible for any support unless they entered the workhouse, where conditions were harsher than those for the "blameless poor". These harsh conditions were in contrast to some of the more asylum-like workhouses in existence at the time, and Southwell became the prototype for all English workhouses as codified in the legislation which followed in 1834.

The Poor Law Amendment Act, 1834, England and Wales

Inmates were free to enter and leave as they liked and would receive free food and accommodation. However, the concern was that too liberal a regime would lead to many people who could easily work taking it easy in the workhouse. This would lead not only to an excessive charge on charitable funds but a dilution of the work ethic. To counter this the principle of less eligibility was developed. Workhouse life was deliberately made as harsh and degrading as possible so that only the truly destitute would apply. Attempts were also made to provide moral guidance, training and education to the poor.
Workhouse conditions were governed by the Consolidated General Order, a formidable series of rules governing every aspect of workhouse life such as diet, dress, education, discipline and redress of grievances.
Poor Law Act of 1845, Scotland
The workhouse system was the mainstay of poor relief through the Victorian era across the UK. Overall they were places of dread to the labouring and indigent poor. Reformers like Charles Booth and Seebohm Rowntree revealed that there was widespread poverty in Victorian Britain and that the workhouse system was not helping. Books such as Charles Dickens' Oliver Twist highlighted workhouse abuse. John Ruskin's "The Lamp of Memory" includes a Morning Post (1865) newspaper clipping telling of the death of Michael Collins, a hard working "translator" of boots, who died without relief rather than to go to the workhouse and die in it. George Orwell's Down and Out in Paris and London includes first-hand accounts of workhouses in the 1920s and of people he met therein.

ETA: link

[Raineyb]

478. So you're advocating a system in which people would work for mere subsistence? God forbid we should

pay wages so they can afford more than just a bit of food and a cot and a shared bathroom.

Your assumption that people just lack job and life skills is rather insulting. Actually I can't think of a single thing in this OP that doesn't reek.

I would unrec but I'm apparently too late to do so. Pity.

[Cleita]

482. Why not just give them a job at a living wage, with health benefits,

those who are able to work, and let them get their room and board for themselves? There's plenty that needs to be done to fix our crumbling infrastructure and in creating a new energy structure of bio-fuels, wind and solar power. Those who can't work should get decent welfare benefits. It's a much more just and egalitarian way of doing things except the righties will start screaming socialism and communism. The horror!

[EstimatedProphet]

483. This thread is still going on?!

Are these work camps made out of kudzu?

[unapatriciated]

495. nah, but you should see my yard.

;)

[beam me up scottie]

496. LET THEM EAT KUDZU!!!1!

Unfortunately, other than goats, few other species find it palatable.

[EstimatedProphet]

498. Cows eat it

I remember that from my habitat management class.

[lumberjack_jeff]

497. "optional work camp"? Most of us call it "a job" n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

501. I love this thread so much.