Has the Religious Right lost its children?

[babylonsister]

Has the Religious Right lost its children?


I was talking one day to the Rev. Jim Wallis, an evangelical leader, when he made a startling claim:

The Religious Right has lost its children.

Wallis said the children of ultra-conservative Christians are deserting their parents’ theology in droves. Wallis is the president of Sojourners, a network of progressive Christians.

He says a new generation of Christians are tired of their faith being defined by two issues: fights over abortion and homosexuality.

They really object to the tone of the culture wars. I’m on the road a lot and I’ll have these young Christians say to me, 'If they force us to only care about two issues, they’re going to lose my generation.'

more...

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/19/has-the-religious-right-lost-its-children/

[niyad]

1. that is what happens when you are batshit crazy.

[RedCloud]

79. Their sons and their daughters are beyond their command...

Their old road is rapidly fading...

[DavidDvorkin]

2. Let's hope he's right.

[Crystal Clarity]

32. He is right

But this isn't a new thing. I'm the daughter of big time right wing fundie parents. From the time I left my parents house to this day, (at age 44) I have yet to step foot in a church other then for weddings and funerals. I've totally rejected not only their religious views but political ones as well. As have 2 of my 3 sibling and most of the kids of fundies I grew up with in the church.

I still consider myself to be a Christian but progressive liberal Christianity is a whole different thing entirely. Jim Wallis (mentioned in the article) is as passionate about social justice as he is about his faith. BTW he's the one Beck is attacking if you have been following any of Beck's attacks on social justice from about a month ago... Jim Wallis is easily as liberal if not more so then just about anyone on DU... He also happens to be a Christian. And there are many, many more like him... Pro-choice, pro-gay rights, pro-environment, pro-evolutionists, anti-discrimination, pro-feminists ect.

I go into all of this only to point out that there IS a difference from what many on DU believe ALL Christians to be. Yet we all usually get dumped into the same category unfortunately. I'm not directing this at you DavidDvorkin, nor am I accusing you of doing this. In fact, this is the first post I've seen of yours. I only posted this reply to you intending to answer your comment on hoping Wallis is right with my first paragraph. I just got carried away because I've been wanting to make this point for sometime now. All but the first paragraph is directed at folks on DU in general.

If anyone wants to see what the political leanings of progressive liberal Christians are, you can check out Jim Wallis' Sojourners magazine...http://blog.sojo.net/2010/07/22/a-new-movement-to-abolish-nuclear-weapons/

[DavidDvorkin]

33. I grew up as a rabbi's son

Now I'm an atheist. Neither of my sisters is religious (they're sort of atheist, if you pin them down on the question, whereas I'm aggressive about it). So I've seen that process at first hand.

However, I'm just afraid to hope, after the way I've seen this country spiral down into madness since the hopeful days of the 1960s.

[Crystal Clarity]

39. Yeah me too... afraid to hope.

While ultra conservative christian fundamentalists have seen their children turn their backs on the views they espouse, I'm afraid that not enough of these children do. The fundamentalists currently are vast in number. So even if we were to see a hypothetical 60% of their children abandon these views, that still leaves a huge # of young 'foot soldiers'. And in some ways this is worse due to the fact that those young adults who do stick w/it are likely to be the most hardcore and extreme in their views; tempered by none of their less extremist peers who have already bolted. So, as bad as things already are, this could mean even more madness then what we're seeing now... :scared: I hope I'm wrong though.

On a MUCH lighter note, it's been nice chatting w/you David! :hi:

[tex-wyo-dem]

37. thanks for the great post, Crystal!

I hate it when people stereotype all liberals as being elitists, or sometimes hippies -- lumping all Christians in the crazy evangelical category is just as wrong and inaccurate.

[Crystal Clarity]

41. Thanks tex-wyo-dem

:-)

[roxiejules]

71. Well said, tex-wyo-dem

[Wounded Bear]

44. Good to hear, Crystal!

I only wish the progressive wing of the Christian faith could get more publicity. Frankly, I've always figured there were many out there like you. After all, if one actually reads the words of Christ as published in the Bible, he's a bit more tolerant than the whackos out there that seem to get all of the Christian press. That's about as much as I'll say about quoting scripture.

Keep up the good fight. I, too quit any ties with the church about when I told my Baptist Mom that I wouldn't go any more. I'm looking forward to when the more sane and Christian wing of Christianity gains some more credibility and power.

[InvisibleTouch]

62. You make an important point.

All Christians are not crazy fundies. Many are liberals as you say, and if they're actually *living* by the principles they claim to believe in, and aren't trying to force their belief on others, I have absolutely no issue with them. Same goes for any other religion.

[Crystal Clarity]

65. That's just it right there

I along with every other liberal Christian I know have a 'live and let live' attitude. I've never tried to convert anyone and never will. People have to discover for themselves their own truths. I figure if any one wants to know more about what I believe in, they will ask.

Christianity is something I chose for myself and consider deeply personal. Whether others chose the same path (or not) is not for me to judge or worse, try to 'fix'. It is the right wing christian fundamentalists' inability to understand and respect this that I think most people (including me) consider to be one of the most abhorrent things about them...

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. First welcome

and I always like to make the difference between the fanatics (insert religion here) and the rest.

Fanatics (I don't care what religion) tend to be very black and white. Unfortunately for many people this is the image they get when thinking "Christian." Reality is right wing (insert religion here) takes away from the hope that a next generation will have under the pressures of a secular society.

I see Fundamentalist (insert faith here, because the same process is happening with Jews and Catholics, who are Christian but you know why I made the distinction since we are in the US)... as the groups feel increasingly under attack they will become louder and self isolated.

My hope is that they just become louder, but lose power. Regardless the US is still the most religious country of advanced economies, but even that is slowly waning.

[Joe Bacon]

59. Sorry, but Wallis is wrong.

And I can offer up as Exhibit "A", my nephews and nieces who all march lockstep to the Religious Right. Every one of them is a hard core Republican who worships the ground Palin walks on. And every last one of them wants Obama impeached. They all recite the latest talking points from Beck, Rush and Fox that their pulpit pimps spit out. And they have a complete absolute hatred of gays, lesbians, the poor, those with darker skins and especially "godless" muslims.

As Exhibit "B", i produce younger coworkers, 20-30 years younger than me, the overwhelming majority who bring Bibles to work and are every bit the narrow minded bigots that members of my family are. Absolute contempt for that "Muslim in the White House". And they have their prayer circles at work where they pray to their real God, Ayn Rand, to deliver America from "godless Marxism"

Bottom Line--Jesus makes you stupid. Jesus makes you intolerant. Jesus fills you full of hate. And I'll have NOTHING to do with the garbage that calls itself Christianity.

[Crystal Clarity]

64. Neither Wallis nor I said anything about

ALL kids of right wing fundie parents abandoning their parent's POV's... If you actually read my post, you'd see that exhibit "A" in my experience would be one of my 3 siblings. She still marches to the same tune as my right wing fundie parents... and I mentioned that fact in my post. Exhibit "B" would be another post of mine on this same thread that mentioned a hypothetical # of 40% accepting their fundie parent's dogma.

I made it hypothetical only because no one knows exactly how many kids of fundies REJECT their parent's right wing fundie indoctrinations. But some do, and that is a FACT... I'm living breathing proof of it as are 2 of my 3 siblings and about 70% of the (now adult) children of fundie parents that I knew from our right wing christian fundamentalist church. I've no idea what the real percentage may be. However, my anecdotal evidence of the children of fundies rejecting the right wing christian fundamentalism that they grew up with; effectively cancels out your assertion (w/conclusions also drawn anecdotally btw) that this is not true. SO... even if it's JUST me, 2 of my siblings and many of my childhood friends (which I highly doubt), but even if is just 'us' that still means Wallis is right.

As far as your last paragragh... Wow!!! Thanks for providing in your own words, PROOF for all to see that some people don't have to be right wing christian fundamentalists to espouse hate and intolerance. Though right wing fundies may be pros at it, it appears that you could probably keep up with any one of them rather well when it comes that particular attribute.

[Mopar151]

66. Who's being intolerant here?

Jesus never made anybody stupid. Following charlatans who purport to interpret the words of a book about Jesus will make you dumber than a dog turd.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. That is kind of intolerant from you

[Dappleganger]

75. LOL!

Re-read your post and see if you can find the irony.

[snooper2]

77. I wonder how many people clicked on your profile

and expeted to see Alabama, not California :)

[saltpoint]

3. Great. This is great news. This is better than ice cream

and cake.

The far Right fundie nutbags have been hammering on reproductive freedom and homosexuality for what seems like forever. If they've begun to lose the respect of their own kids over their obsessions, great.

It's interesting that What's-His-Name said something about suffer the children for they are close to the kingdom...

Recommended.

:hi:

[MikeNY]

4. Just War Theory doesn't exist in American Christianity

For some thousand years, nations were expected follow the religious rule of "cassus belli" (cause for war/just war doctrine). This was later expanded on in the 20th century by religious scholars. The concept exists, and is well known, by nearly every Christian person in Europe and overseas. Just War theory seems to have been forgotten in America. But it sure hasn't at the Vatican and everywhere else. Could that have something to do with the fact that religious people aren't buying into the latest oracle performing miracles on stage in Alabama?

[NNN0LHI]

5. I would consider my parents members of the Catholic Religious Right

And they lost me before I was out of grade school. I was probably ten when I told my parents I didn't believe in the existence of their imaginary sky person. Needless to say that didn't go over well. I think they were considering Exorcism?

Don

[old mark]

6. Probably only the smart ones....they will keep the stupid and the sheep,

but they will lose the brightest and the best.
This is starting to happen in many religions, even some of the big leaguers...

Good.


mark

[Fumesucker]

7. I suspect they may temporarily lose their children..

But that early religious training is remarkably difficult to overcome permanently, I'm watching my fifty five year old brother drift further and further back toward the religion he left many, many years ago.

[Dappleganger]

17. My overly religious parents lost me...

I see it happening all around me, especially if the kids go to college where you are challenged to THINK--it happens.

[Fumesucker]

24. The point I'm making though is that as people age and ponder their own mortality..

Some of them tend to drift back toward the religion they were taught as children and then left in adolescence or early adulthood.

[KakistocracyHater]

51. that's why Red Letter Christians, Sufis, Quabbalists, etc are needed,

to soothe the nerves while standing at the Gate of the Great Unknown-death. There are also other philosophies out there: Pagan, Heathen, etc.

[Fumesucker]

55. What we are taught at a very young age we absorb in a largely non-rational way..

Early training can be extremely difficult to overcome on a permanent basis.

As I said, I see it happening in my own family.

[KakistocracyHater]

68. only partialy true, I think the 'adult version' of the religions I mentioned

would hopefully appeal & make sense to someone alot older, rather than the childish interpretations of fundie childhood versions.

[AnArmyVeteran]

28. Unless they go to 'colleges' like Liberty U where they churn out fanatics every day.

Jerry Falwell's 'church' started Liberty University with the intention of putting a lot of brainwashed Christian fanatics in places of power in the government. And once they had enough control they would begin reversing many of the laws we have that protect our freedoms. I believe one of the greatest threats to our country is Christian fundamentalism. Another is conservative extremism. And when you combine a Christian fundamentalist and conservative extremism you get people who are very dangerous and extremely ignorant.

Liberty U is the same place where the insane Glenn Beck spoke. Even though this dimwitted thug violates the 9th Commandment every day he is on the air by bearing false witness against his neighbors, not one person in the Liberty University audience protested or left. Only someone who is completely deluded would sit and listen to someone like Beck. But fundamentalist Christians seem to all be conservative extremists, without even realizing that no one can be a practicing Christian and a conservative extremist at the same time. They are exact opposites. Conservative extremists, while professing to be Christians, hate Jesus' teachings.

I agree with you though. No matter how much children have been force fed a steady diet of religious fanaticism, if they are exposed to other people who are aware and come from all walks of life, it can be a very enlightening time. That's what's scary about home schooling by fundamentalist Christians. They keep their children totally isolated from the real world and teach them their crazy, Biblical-tainted views. Fundie Christian home schooling is an ignorance factory.

[tex-wyo-dem]

47. +1000...great post! n/t

[PerpetuallyDazed]

58. Homeschooling gets such a bad rap! Please remember we're not all like that...

My siblings and I, (the five of us) are the products of a homeschooling family. My best friend in college and her sister were also homeschooled their whole lives. Our parents were more hippy types and we're all pretty liberal. Two of us went into teaching and my friend is a social worker. :hi:

[Dappleganger]

76. There are plenty of liberals who homeschool...

one day you should go online and look up atheist/liberal homeschooling groups to see if there is one in your area and ask to visit with them. Back in the 70's the liberal homeschooling groups were one of the strongest supporters to change laws to make it legal in every state.

[Skidmore]

42. It's more like discovering the first time

you have a drink of alcohol or have sex, you don't get zapped with lightening and it feels good too. At least. that was my experience as a young woman.

[msongs]

8. superstition and fairy tales lose their appeal as children grow up lol nt

[Heidi]

13. If that were true, there would be many fewer wars, my GLBT friends would be able to marry,

scientific progress would soar (because it would be free to soar), art and literature would thrive as never before, etc.

ETA: There are many, many people who hang on to the myths of their childhoods. I believe our culture suffers as a consequence.

[LWolf]

9. I hope so. nt

[City Lights]

10. There is no evidence of this in my neck of the woods.

If it's happening, it's not at all obvious. The Bible-thumping kids are out in droves in my kids' school and they harass my kids when they discover that their religious beliefs differ from theirs. Maybe the mass exodus happens in college/young adulthood. My eldest is heading off to college next month, so it'll be interesting to see if she finds evidence of this there.

[reformist2]

11. It is bizarre how their politics are dominated by two issues which Jesus never talked about.

Maybe their kids want to see more emphasis on the things Jesus actually did talk about... you know, like love, compassion, mercy?

[Brigid]

34. Yep.

Just checked my bible again, and just like always before not a word about abortion or homosexuality. Quite a bit about love, compassion, and mercy, though.

[Recursion]

38. This was the guy who took a pair of scissors to his Bible

and cut out every reference to poverty to show what the American right was doing to the Bible.

[Fuzz]

12. I'm a child of the religious right, granted it was long ago, but they

lost me, long ago.

[MineralMan]

14. There have been some polls among fundamentalist denominations

that indicate that this is true. The Barna Group did such a poll a few years ago, to the shock of many fundamentalists. Here's another story from the Barna Group, a well-known and widely-respected organization that tracks Christian trends:

http://www.barna.org/teens-next-gen-articles/94-a-new-generation-expresses-its-skepticism-and-frustration-with-christianity

[Alcibiades]

74. Great article!

Two highlights:

"When young people were asked to identify their impressions of Christianity, one of the common themes was "Christianity is changed from what it used to be" and "Christianity in today’s society no longer looks like Jesus." These comments were the most frequent unprompted images that young people called to mind, mentioned by one-quarter of both young non-Christians (23%) and born again Christians (22%)."

Of course, some of these respondents may be asserting a belief that Christianity is not fundamentalist enough, but still heartening.

"One of the groups hit hardest by the criticism is evangelicals. Such believers have always been viewed with skepticism in the broader culture. However, those negative views are crystallizing and intensifying among young non-Christians. The new study shows that only 3% of 16 - to 29-year-old non-Christians express favorable views of evangelicals. This means that today’s young non-Christians are eight times less likely to experience positive associations toward evangelicals than were non-Christians of the Boomer generation (25%)."

The evangelical movement's attempt to own the term "Christian" also probably helps to taint Christianity in general. The fact is that evangelical Christianity has also always relied upon converts, and it seems likely they will win few among this young generation, whose ideas are pretty much set in stone by young adulthood.

only 3% of 16 - to 29-year-old non-Christians express favorable views of evangelicals
only 3% of 16 - to 29-year-old non-Christians express favorable views of evangelicals
only 3% of 16 - to 29-year-old non-Christians express favorable views of evangelicals
only 3% of 16 - to 29-year-old non-Christians express favorable views of evangelicals

They will reap what they sow.

[starroute]

15. Some are losing their faith but others are seeking to make it deeper

Many of those disaffected young fundies are going to remain sincere Christians -- they just don't want to be herded into a religion based solely on disapproving of what other people do with their bodies.

And no, I don't have any first-hand knowledge of this, but I have been following the debates with interest for a number of years. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a variety of new religious movements coming out of it, some aiming at social justice and working with the poor and dispossessed, others more mystical and inward-looking -- but all of them based on following the actual path of Jesus rather than hoping for super-Jesus to come back on Judgment Day and blast the sinners.

[Renegades of Funk]

16. Thank God

I was born into a religious but pro-union family.

[SoCalDem]

18. Children rebel as they grow up.. At least for a time, they will push away

from what they grew up with..

[sufrommich]

20. Unfortunately as adults, they tend to revert to the way

they were raised.

[SoCalDem]

21. It's probably unavoidable. .. we are not a very contemplative society, are we?

The lucky ones will get a chance to go to college with a variety of people and may actually meet & marry someone with a broader view of the world.

With all the fundamentalist "colleges" popping up, many of these kids have no choice but to go there (if Mom & Dad are paying), and they may not be reachable.

For that 17-25 yr old time-frame, many children-of-zealots may actually be open to some liberal thinking:)

[sufrommich]

22. Oh, I agree that many escape their parents attempts to

limit their exposure, but not all. If you've ever watched "Jesus Camp" it's hard for me to imagine too many of those kids not being scarred for life.Fear begets fear.

[SoCalDem]

26. As a "recovered" Catholic, I can tell you that there is hope..

As a kid, I was sure that just about anything one did would earn them an "eternity in the burning fires of Hell".. I eagerly awaited my 18th birthday, and as I promised my Mother, I would never set foot in that place again.. and I did not... (except for her funeral and a wedding)

I got married in a Presbyterian church.

We raised three good citizens, and never forced religion on them.. They are all adults now, and have always had our "blessing" to attend any religious facility of THEIR CHOICE.. They chose to follow the Golden Rule, and are doing just fine..

[sufrommich]

27. That's great. I was raised by a lutheran mother and

an atheist father, we were allowed to follow our own path as far as religion was concerned. Choice is a wonderful thing.

[w8liftinglady]

35. That's exactly what happened to me...with the same outcome

[mike r]

19. Kinda hard to find a date when your parent is an obsessive, preachy, hate-filled nutbag

[K8-EEE]

23. If they keep going the "homoseckshul agenda" route they def will

The genie is out of the bottle and gay people are more and more out there, looking like what the are; PEOPLE! This screws up their propaganda. If everyone's hiding in the closet you can make them out to be monsters. People who grow up seeing normal gay people then see their parents ranting and raving will naturally start thinking they're from bizarro world.

[Mariana]

36. I think you're right.

My stepdaughter had a gay friend in high school, in Texas! He felt comfortable enough to reveal that about himself to at least a few people as early as tenth grade, and I believe it was generally known by the time they graduated.

That would NEVER have happened when I was in high school (in Alabama). The kid would have had to change schools, drop out, or maybe even leave town if he were known to be gay.

[piratefish08]

25. sweet. hopefully attrition will take care of the rest.

[slampoet]

29. The Steets of Seattle are filled with HUNDREDS of teens and youths who were thrown out

on the streets by their religious parents.

[Peacetrain]

30. I think he is absolutely right!!

[autorank]

31. k*r This is great

I've encountered this and seen other articles, particularly polls. The current generation does not buy into the "hate" theme nor to they get all worked up about being "persecuted" - which they are not obviously. They can maintain their own views on abortion and attitude towards gay people without being nasty or even exclusive.

This is great. In fact, the under 40 crowd is much more open minded and tolerant than any generation of citizens. They're smarter too. Can't wait until they take over.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. Someone should tell James Dobson that maybe all that beating-with-sticks wasn't such a good idea

after all.

Whoops.

[Mopar151]

67. I bet his dog did'nt like it either.......n/t

[Initech]

43. Perhaps the old white males of the Xtian church are losing their powers.

And I say good, fuck 'em. If I were a Christian I'd get pretty tired of their bullshit too.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

45. Unfortunately the church has a stranglehold on all races.

Although you are correct that it is mostly males who hold positions of power.



edit - oops, we are talking about the religious right (I thought we were talking about all religious nutjobs). you are correct that the religious right is represented by white males.



However, I believe that organized religion in general is losing its foothold on today's youth.

[Scurrilous]

46. K & R

:thumbsup:

[ismnotwasm]

48. Good

It's been proven over and over that if you lie to your children, and they discover the lies in time, they WILL challenge you. I don't mind sane minded religious folk one bit, admire them actually, they have something I'll never have, but the Religious right simply lies and lies and misinterprets and cherry picks and manipulates. I call it the "God in a Box" syndrome. And I don't get it. Why would you waste all that lovely faith on this great Deity and then constantly attempt to limit it's power?

There used to be studies on this about drug use, tell your kids incorrect information and they find out, you've done them a great disservice. They lose trust. They turn away. The ultimate problem was, what or who did they turn to?

[LostInAnomie]

49. I'm not sure the Religious Right necesarily rely on their children to keep their numbers.

Especially, the evangelicals and the born agains.

To me at least, they always seemed to rely on a steady crop of scared people that want to have some grounds for feeling superior to the world they are living in. Whether it be the social misfit that wants to have a reason to look down on others, the spurned boyfriend who's girlfriend had an abortion without "his permission", the homophobe that wants a moral backing for his hate, etc., they all have their reasons for coming to the flock.

[Douglas Carpenter]

50. kick and recommend!!

[Festivito]

52. As per the old joke, there is a pattern of loss from 16-30ish.

There were three churches in a small town and the ministers were having lunch together talking about each church's rat infestations. One had tried an exterminator, only to have the invoices along with the rats continue. Another took the rats across the river, but the rats returned.

The third minister said he took each rat, baptized it, confirmed it, and gave it communion. And, so far, they haven't been back.

It's not if the kids return, it's whether the parents of new kids return.

[mwb970]

53. I've always wondered why they are satisfied with just the two issues.

With so much going on in the world and so many opportunities for Christian activism to help others, the extremely religious people focus on two things and two things only: NO to a woman's right to choose and NO to homosexuality. Thus their entire belief system is to be anti-woman and anti-gay. This would seem to be thin gruel indeed for a young person in the mood to explore and expand their faith. (Especially if the young person in question is a woman. Or gay!)

[Fumesucker]

56. Because neither issue requires self-reflection..

If you aren't gay and don't plan on having an unwanted pregnancy those two issues have almost nothing to do with you so you have no reason to engage in examining your own morals and behavior.

[Cal33]

54. This sounds like the younger generation is refusing to

put on the blinkers of their parents. They wish to see more for themselves,
instead of blindly obeying their leaders. A good sign. Hope they keep it up.

[NJmaverick]

57. Very possible, many extremist religions have problems holding on to their children

[Bluenorthwest]

60. Wallis the fence sitting hair splitting wonder

He's not in favor of equality for gay people, he just thinks the methods of discrimination should have kinder words involved. He is opposed to equal rights, he himself makes it an issue, and he himself agrees on that issue with the very worst of the fire breathing invective machines. Additionally, he never, ever calls out the hate speakers for speaking open hate, never stands up for those that are attacked by his community. No, later he will explain that he's not like that, but he will never explain why he does not stand against those people, why he does not offer a credible, Christian counter on an active basis to the hate spewers. He does nothing, and all it takes for evil to rule is for good men to do nothing. That community is his house to clean, and Wallis and his lot need to stop thinking about money and book sales and clean their damn filthy, apostate house before they deliver another word lecture.
Wallis is the worst sort of bigot, the kinder, gentler kind. But he never opposes the hate spewers in any real or meaningful way. He tries to sell his books, and pack his pews, and that is the definition of his faith, and his deity, which is money.
I find him to be soul dead and apostate, out to soften the hate message for richer church goers, same as Warren. Until men like that make real stands with us, and against the Phelps McClurkin types, they are nothing but hot air rattling brittle branches.

[InvisibleTouch]

61. I sure hope so!

I have a friend who went off the deep end a few years ago into crazy funie-ism. She's currently pregnant. I shudder to think of that child's fate if it doesn't follow its mother's religious obsessions.

[Overseas]

63. Hope so. //nt

[red red red]

69. Proves one thing...

The kids have more common sense than their parents. JMO

[Hamlette]

72. If so, my guess is the kids think the stand on gays makes less sense than the stand on abortion

abortion is easy to sell as murder. The position against gays in general and gay marriage in particular is impossible to understand. In addition, my young people are out than they were in my youth (1970s). Once you realize you know someone who is gay and you like that person (what's not to like? I like gay men so much, in my next life I'm coming back as one.) its pretty hard to buy into a "hate gays" attitude if the only reason is "the bible says so".

[Odin2005]

78. A lot of Athests come from fundy families.