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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:16 PM
Original message
Utah Mother Doctored Photo to Show Girl, 13(From Daughter's school) Having Sex with Dog
A Utah woman is facing a battery of child pornography-related charges after she allegedly created a flyer depicting a 13-year-old girl engaged in bestiality and distributed photocopies of the picture around the girl's middle school.

Danette Stark, 37, a mother whose daughter attends the same Salt Lake City middle school, is accused of digitally superimposing the girl's face on a explicit image she found on the Internet depicting a naked adult woman having sex with a dog.

One of the flyers was discovered in late May by a custodian in a girl's bathroom at Northwest Middle School.

Salt Lake District Attorney Lohra Miller called the production and distribution of the flyer "heinous," but would not offer a motive for Stark's alleged crime.

"The motive is irrelevant," Miller said at a recent press conference. "In this case the heinous and despicable acts speak for themselves.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-mother-doctored-photo-sho...

Any fool can be a parent! They should get her kids away from this sick influence!
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. A photoshop of a face on a naked adult body is child porn?
News to me. Odd case in its entirety. I mean really...why a dog? In all of the animal kingdom...
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SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I think handing out the flyer to children would be the problem. nt
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Thats just distributing sub-normal porn
Child porn is illegal because it creates demand for the exploitation of the children.

In this case, no child was actually taken a picture of in a pornographic context

Yeah, I mean, this crazy nut probably violated all kinds of things, but child porn specifically?
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SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. They jailed a man for child porn in Iowa for having drawings of children.
It is a community standard thing... under the old law they could have thrown you in jail for having a VHS tape of Animal House or Pretty Woman.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
68. yes, digitally altered images are specifically child porn if they
look like they intend to represent a child doing something pornographic.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Well, its a good thing Glen Beck is over 18 then
Because some of the flyers Ive seen of him...don't get me started
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. That an adult created such a flyer doesn't strike you as kind of fucked-up?
:crazy:
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Very odd
I would of first went with a Rhino picture, but to each their own. :)
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
84. It is legally considered child porn
Plus, you have defamation of character and bestiality, which is illegal, thrown in.

Throw her ass in jail; and make her register as a sex offender. This is sick on so many different levels.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. Hell, the whole GOP is fucked up.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:11 PM by ChairmanAgnostic
But is it a crime?

I think not.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. So that wouldn't fall under "slander" or "harassment"?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:30 PM by devilgrrl
Think again.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #50
65. You are kidding, no?
You want the court to start a guardianship action, hire an atty to be the kid's rep, file suit on behalf of her child, against the mom, and seek damages for the daughter against her own mom? Is that what you want?

Talk about . . . . . . . . Ugh.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. Cool, send me a pic of your kid and I'll photoshop them fucking a cow. How about that?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 06:39 PM by devilgrrl
:eyes:

I'm sure you'll just laugh it off as a silly prank....
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:14 PM
Original message
hahahahaha
It's legally child porn. There is a precedent here.
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lolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #65
105. It wasn't her own mother
From the article, it says the woman had a daughter at the school.

Sounds like it might be another "MySpace Mom" situation, where a mother takes it upon herself to get involved in her daughter's clique fights.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
83. I'll take
beyond fucked-up for $2,000 Alex. Any bets she's a 'gawd-fearing ReTHUG
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #83
110. I agree. This is BEYOND fucked up.
The issue isn't a bad photoshop job, or even fictional images of nonexistent children in sexual situations (i.e., drawings)

The issue is defamation and sexual harassment of an ACTUAL child -- the child whose face was placed in the picture. A very real child, and someone who the perp actually knows.

This would not be OK to do to an adult woman. Would it be OK if some creep did it to a co-worker? No. It would be taken as gross sexual harassment. How much worse is it when it's a child?
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. Yes, I believe it is. Child porn laws cover even just the appearance of child porn..
even if not actual. Which I think is correct. Society cannot tolerate child porn/abuse of any kind, even if simulated.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. So a naked adult woman in a diaper and pacifier is child porn?
I think its just fuckn strange
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. If the intent is to make her look underage and in a sexual situation then yes..
I believe it can be considered child porn. It might be unfair and excessive in some cases but the spirit of the laws are correct.
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SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. That law thankfully was overturned... It caused films such as Pretty Woman or Animal House
to be reclassified as child porn and opened up innocent people to prosecution.
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. I think there is some tolerance for mainstream movies, books, art etc..
where the intent is not to use a child in an erotic situation. Perhaps this case is different also, since the woman was not intending the photo to be used in a sexual manner. Not really sure but regardless its a nasty vicious thing to do.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #58
88. No, it wasn't overturned -- it is child porn
This has nothing to do with a movie, where an adult woman is portrayed as being underage. The victim in the OP is a minor. It is legally child porn, along with a bunch of other stuff.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
53. Locally the same thing happened and the courts ruled it wasn't child pr0n.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:24 PM by L0oniX
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SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #53
106. Maybe the dog is underaged????...
Isn't beastility against the law as well?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
85. It is represented to be her, so yes
Legally, child porn.

Alyssa Milano has won lawsuits based on something very similar, and she is an adult.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
101. The body having sex with the dog is porn.
Photo-shopping a 13-yo girls face onto that body, and then distributing it to her peers at her school? I don't know if it's porn, but it's criminal in some form.

"Heinous" doesn't begin to describe it.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Seriously, I would never imagine anyone would do that in a million years.
Seriously.

:wtf:

PB
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. People are fucking crazy. CRAZY! And fgetting crazier by the day.
CRAZY. Something is wrong it is like the whole country is under some mass insanity trance.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I've wondered the same, are we in some type of mass experiment. Each day the
craziest gets crazier.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. It freaks the shit out of me sometimes- that I still (at almost 40) don't have...
...all that much of a clue about the depth and breadth of humanity and, being honest with myself, am not so sure I have the guts to really find out. I think I'll stick to understanding the motivations of what I presume to be about 70-90+ percent of humankind and just write the rest off (like the lady in the story) as fundamentally broken in some way which should exclude them from inclusion into what I consider "humanity".

Shit just gets too nuts. I'm not sure whether it's getting nuttier now than at any time in the past but I think it could be the year 3000 and some human-ish being could be reading a news report about some other fucked-up nuttiness and will probbaly feel just as over-whelmed by the occasional insanity of it all.

Cold comfort.

PB
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. you have the internet now that brings things to a norm, that then has to be out done
at some point, that line becomes a norm that then again has to be outdone

it really is common sense that this would be happening.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
70. me too -- feel the same way
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. I agree
I wish we all lived near each other in a more hospitable atmosphere, an oasis of sanity. I wish you were my next door neighbor instead of the teabagger I have instead.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
76. I'd expect a middle school student to make that. I guess I can see where a mom might...
get involved on her kid's behalf if the kid lacks shopping skills.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:53 PM
Original message
I dunno, man, heh heh, it's hard to imagine a 13 year old who's going to...
...go through the trouble to hunt down bestiality photos, photoshop her rival's head onto the woman in the photo, print up a bunch of them and pass them around school.

Actually, I don't know any kids or adult for that matter who are likely to go through the trouble to create such a presumably-humiliating bit of character assassination.

It's...it's the kind of nasty only an adult with some serious problems would come up with- or so it would seem.

PB
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
81. A kid would do the photoshops and circulate it through email, some social network, or cell phone
A mom would use here PTA-lady-kung-fu to take the photoshop, run it through the copier at work, and get them to the school. I have a hard time imagining the mom circulating them among kids, but consider it very likely that her daughter did this part and mom is trying to take the rap for her on it, as she's already in deep shit and the kid could at least be spared the criminal record.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #81
98. Yes. What you said. I think that does make the most sense. If a kid...
..was predominately "behind it", it does make more sense they would send stuff like that out via a social networking site or whatever.

PB
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SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Flyer??? "The motive is irrelevant," I didn't realize that Batshit Crazy
was considered a motive nowadays.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. I doubt batshit craziness was the exact motive
My best guess is the girl whose face appeared on this poster was more popular than her own child is, and she wanted to destroy the other girl in the eyes of her classmates. This is Mormon country, where prudishness is pretty common.

I wonder how the mom got the idea to use a dogfucker image in this. That's REALLY weird; I didn't know they had Linda Lovelace videos in Utah.
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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. Very sick and twisted human being to do something so cruel to a child.
When i read this last night i was disgusted beyond words. As a similarly aged woman i cannot even fathom sitting around and investing so much energy trying to come up with ways to hurt and humiliate a little girl. Just cannot wrap my head around this type of individual. :banghead:
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. The mother thinks she's still 13 and Queen of the Girls Room.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:27 PM by no_hypocrisy
Sadistic Bully!
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burnsei sensei Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. You've captured the very essence of it.
In Utah, where the culture is constantly conformist, a trick like this is unusual. But the thinking and social dynamic behind it, the contempt and brutality, are all part of the culture there.
I should know.
I was one of the out group, and was constantly reminded of it.
Salt Lake City will never live its culture down.

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
11. I bet that woman is a psychopath.
As in, textbook psychopath. EEG differences in tests and all.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. Good Lord... I'd like to see all kids (and all animals) kept from
this bizarre woman...

It pains me so much to see some try to pervert everything--even the pure compassion and nurturing love most of us have for children and our animals.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. Mental illness
I't no joke.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
18. gawd I know this is going to get me in trouble, so prepare to pile on...
...but fer pete's sake, mutilating kittens is a "heinous and dispicable act." This is just schoolyard bullying writ large. No, I'm NOT defending the perpetrator, but what the FUCK ever happened to a rational sense of proportion?

Lately we've seen corrective surgery described as "female genital mutilation," declining honeybee populations predicted to destroy the human race, and now a nasty prank elevated to the level of genocide.

:rant:
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. OK, I'll 'pile on"...
you're so DEAD WRONG it hurts.

Just b/c people actually "fuck chickens", to quote Philip Roth, does not mean that it's OK to had out pics of someone's son doing it, OK?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. you missed the point utterly....
Of course it's not OK. It's sucks. It was a mean spirited thing to do. It's nasty. She should be appropriately reprimanded or punished. Nothing I said contradicts that.

But "heinous and despicable?" If that's how the prosecutor describes photoshopping a nasty and embarrassing pic, what's left for really awful crimes? Or are they more-or-less all the same?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. No I did not miss the point utterly...
...I am so fed up with the ridiculousness around here these days...do you mean to tell me that some woma who's 37 frigging years old puts a pic of a girl having sex with a dog all over the place, that that's a "prank"...?

I jsut erased all the sentences which I wrote about this - probably would have gotten me banned...I fucking give up.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. me too-- no one seems to actually read anymore....
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:01 PM by mike_c
They just pass their eyes over posts and then substitute whatever shit was in their heads for what the poster actually said.

NOTHING I SAID EXCUSES OR DEFENDS WHAT THE MOTHER DID. IT WAS WRONG. IT WAS NASTY. SHE DESERVES CRITICISM AND POSSIBLY PUNISHMENT.

HYPERBOLE ONLY CREATES FALSE IMPRESSIONS ABOUT THE REAL NATURE OF THE CRIME.

What part of that is so hard to understand? Do you honestly equate this with really "heinous and despicable" acts like genocide or murder?
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Lemme ask you a question:
how much suicide do you think is caused by crap like this? How much anorexia/ How much bulimia? These kids are never the same...so it may not be genocide, but it's heinous, and horrible and discgusting. And if you feel that you need to post exculpatory nonsense in order to intellectually rationalize the destruction of a 13 year old girl, then go right ahead. I will only say, as a parent, that if this had happened to my kid, the creator would be looking not for an attorney, but an orthopedist if she were lucky, that is.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
72. Yep. When is child abuse a prank? We're talking about a 13 y/o girl, here --
and they are very tender at 13. We're talking scarred for life, maybe.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #72
90. If it's done to an ADULT, it's against the law
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
52. Let's see someone pull that on a close female friend of yours and see how you react.
:popcorn:
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. I'm sure I'd be angry-- anyone would....
But jeez. Heinous? As I've said all over this subthread, if this is "heinous," what room does that leave for crimes that kill hundreds of thousands? I mean, none of my comments are about excusing the crime itself-- I'm not even sure what the actual crime is (i.e. what specific laws were broken). I'm just tired of all the over-the-top language whipping up disproportionate outrage all the time. Maybe I just need a DU break.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. So you're grubbling over the use of the word "heinous". Okay, how about "Fucked Up" then?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:34 PM by devilgrrl
:eyes:

BTW, you're the one over-reacting here - over a poorly written headline of all things. :eyes:
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. it is indeed pretty fucked up....
And yes, I'll also cop to being more perturbed than this single instance warrants. It seems part of a general pattern though, and that's what disturbs me.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #64
99. What then are the precise, relevant and objective...
What then are the precise, relevant and objective words you believe should be used in this particualr case? On what is that choice based on?

(Your use of the word "disturbing"... is that not hyperbole too? If not, what is the precise and relevant difference from the appropriate words you appear to take issue with?)
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. You're right, Mike. It was wrong and pervy and deserving of punishment, but heinous it is not.
Our national leaders are guilty of heinous crimes.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
73. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. yeah and I hate freedom, too....
Good lord. Can you even read?
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. if what she did is not emotional abuse & the distribution of porn,
what is it?

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. it is exactly those things...
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 06:54 PM by mike_c
...and I would not have raised any objection whatsoever to calling it that, subject to the caveat that there are likely specific statutes that apply in both cases, so the allegation would need to be proved. But the act was certainly abusive and pornographic under any definition. I've never once disputed that. I agree with it wholeheartedly.

See my other comments in this sub-thread if that seems incongruous with the conclusions you jumped to. I have never condoned or approved of them, nor given any indication that they are "all right by me" or however you characterized it.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
82. apt and applicable in this case.
You have of course knowledge of the definitions of the words, yes? To be safe, I double checked the definitions myself and they seem to be both apt and applicable in this case.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. OK-- if jaywalking is at one end of a continuum and killing millions at the other...
...and modifying this pic to make fun of a teenaged girl is somewhere along that same continuum-- and it's heinous and despicable-- how would you describe genocide, or jaywalking, in words that distinguished them from the totally innocuous and the totally, um, heinous? Can you see my point?

Sure, the terms fit if we isolate any single crime and disconnect it from the rest of the world and what humans do to one another.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #87
96. In context, the definitions do not appear to fit with Jaywalking
In context, the definitions do not appear apropos to Jaywalking. You can of course better explain how they do, yes?
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
89. This was done to a MINOR, by an adult
If an adult did this to another adult, they could be sued and would lose, as some celebrities have done.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. as indeed they should....
eom
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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. How is a 13 yr old girl supposed to defend herself against this "mother"?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:51 PM by FedUpWithIt All
Young teenagers kill themselves due to less humiliation from their peers. But this wasn't a peer, an adult (in age only of course) did this to this child. What recourse would this child have if not for the reaction of the community around her?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I agree wholeheartedly....
Nothing I said seeks to excuse or defend the mother's actions.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
92. What you said does excuse it -- just a prank
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. sigh....
I specifically said exactly the opposite. Perhaps you should read those posts phonetically?
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Do you remember being 13?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:52 PM by RamboLiberal
This could be devistating to a kid. Young people have been known to commit suicide over this kind of bullying. I'm glad I'm not a teen now with all the new forms of bullying including electronic harrassment.

Bad enough peers do the cruel bullying - but to have an adult pile on instead of correcting the behavior!

You are insensitive!
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. you missed the point, too....
See above.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. writing stuff off as just "a nasty prank" is what bullies do. It's sadly ingrained in our society-
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:57 PM by KittyWampus
to minimize this sort of abuse.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. +1
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. "just schoolyard bullying"
Not dealing with that seriously enough in proper proportion has been a problem for a long time.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. well, I agree, but that's not really the point, is it...?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:04 PM by mike_c
I mean, do you really believe this was the moral equivalent of crimes that are truly "heinous?"
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. What do you think "heinous" means?
Why do you think it's somehow reserved for things like murder and genocide?

Why are you nitpicking like this?

It comes across as a desire to minimize this disgusting act as 'just a prank'.

Do you honestly consider it 'just a prank'?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. good question....
While we can both go to the dictionary and post definitions, I'll answer without one because my initial reaction was without one. I think "heinous" means "exceptionally cruel and terrible," with emphasis on "exceptionally." Genocide is heinous. Murder is heinous. War crimes are heinous.

It seems to me that calling this woman's actions "heinous and despicable" equates them with things like genocide, deliberate torture and murder, ethnic cleansing, etc. As I've tried to say several times in this subthread, I'm talking about proportional response, not defending ANYTHING she did.

Finally, yes-- I consider this a prank. A bad, nasty, unwarranted prank. Truly ugly. Reprehensible. But an act on the level of a prank rather than a act on the same level as something like torture and murder.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Thanks... I would disagree with you on it being a prank...
becuase for me, it goes way beyond having someone put saran wrap across a door before you try to walk through it... or covering all your stuff in foil... those, to me, are pranks.

As for the adjective being the right or wrong one, I hope you can see how not everyone would have the same reservations about these words being used for what this woman did.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. you realize that you have just equated genocide and mutilating kittens?
In your first post on this subject, you characterized mutilating kittens as a heinous act. You now say that other examples of heinous acts are gennocide. Or just plain old murder. SO that's a pretty wide range: genocide. murder. mutilating kittens. Yet not wide enough to capture the deliberate action of an adult to psychologically "torture" a child.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. now we've really gotten off track....
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:25 PM by mike_c
You understand that was an analogy, don't you? And a bit tongue-in-cheek?

But just between me and you, if I were king of the world anyone who harms kittens would have to run for the rest of their lives.... :-)
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. Schoolyard bullying involves ones peers
A 37 year old woman doing this to kids is NOT schoolyard bullying. In many ways it's worse.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. I think "heinous and dispicable" pretty much covers what this woman did, quite well. It's not like
there's a finite amount of outrage in this world and we might forget to condemn kitten-mutilators and genocide-committers if we express our disgust and horror at what this woman did.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. I suppose you have a point there....
It's just that I've been seeing so many over-the-top responses lately. Everything seems hyperbolic around here these days.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
107. I think it would be a sad world if we didn't think what this woman did to a child was heinous and
despicable. I do not want to live in a society where it's seen as anything but that. I feel so sorry for the 13-year-old, and anyone who saw it. It's hard to forget an image like that.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. delete - wrong location
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:02 PM by onenote

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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. so how is what this woman did NOT "heinous and despicable"?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:06 PM by onenote
No one is claiming that its the most heinous and most despicable act ever perpetrated or that its worse than mutilating kittens or whatever.

Its not as if different acts can be heinous and despicable.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. it's a question of proportion....
I mean, if photoshopping a nasty pic is "heinous," what are rape, murder, and genocide? Triple-mega-walloping heinous? Please recall that my comments were NOT about what the woman did-- I agree that it was wrong. Rather, I'm dismayed that there seems so little sense of proportional response.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. We are talking about an adult woman accused
of not just photoshopping this photo but also of distributing it around middle school where the girl was studying.
I fail to see what your problem is with calling this alleged act "heinous."
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. The problem with your proportionality theory:
The terms heinous and despicable can apply to a wide range of actions. They are not reserved for only the most evil actions. If that was the case, then after the Holocaust, the term "heinous" would simply have to be retired for any event that fell short of killing millions (unless the Holocaust was a "triple-mega-walloping heinous" event while other events are just "heinous").
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. well, at least we've gotten beyond the allegation that I'm defending it!
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:18 PM by mike_c
Good points. Like I said up thread, I'm reacting as much to all the other over-the-top responses I've seen here lately as I am to this one.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
75. Heinous - hateful; odious; abominable; totally reprehensible:
Seems to me it describes what this woman did. You're quibbling over a definition of how a word is used.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heinous
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. yes, I am....
And no one appears interested in the broader point I was trying to make, so I'll stop now.
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PCIntern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. It's not that no one was interested...
it's that it was flat-out mistaken. It's OK...we've all done that...
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
86. English adjectives include the implication of degrees relative to the appropriate context
You do realize that most English adjectives include the implication of degrees relative to the appropriate context, yes?

One may "hate" both the hard-ass boss and the Pol Pot's of the world, that the word is valid in both cases, that the speaker is truthful in both cases.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. I do understand....
But my point was that the language we use often determines the emotional context we create. Just look at the responses in a typical DU thread about crimes. If the OP describes something in hyperbolic terms, it almost always skews readers' responses toward equally hyperbolic outrage. That's just not necessary, nor is it helpful. It creates a mob mentality.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. It's not hyperbole if it's appropriate to the context...
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 07:28 PM by LanternWaste
It's not hyperbole if the definition is appropriate to the context... that is in fact, the opposite of hyperbole.

You see a mob, I see people upset about child abuse. I imagine for the most part, we see merely that which better validates our opinions.

ed: sp
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #86
102. +1
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
103. It's not "schoolyard bullying" when it's perpetrated by a parent.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
55. My husband received a phone porn pic
It depicted what appeared to be a young girl performing a sex act with a dog, with the girl sitting in reddish fluid. My husband was upset to say the least and went to the police. To make a long story short, he traced the origins of the picture to an adult woman's website. She evidently makes money dressing up like a little girl, so technically it wasn't child porn. The picture was also photoshopped evidently so technically, it wasn't even sex with a dog.

But that didn't make it more pleasant to view.


Photoshop is a staple of child pornographers, some pedophiles have 'clubs' where you need a certain number of pictures to join. An expert nurse witness on the topic at a forensic nursing conference I attended said she would never post pictures of young children on-line. The images are easily lifted.

In this case the woman used the image of a child engaged in sexual acts for--as far as I'm concerned--the purpose of some sort of exploitation or humiliation. Whether the picture is 'real' or not isn't the issue. It's still child pornography.

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
60. This conduct was heinous, and probably criminal.
Frankly, I think the mother should be committed. She's dangerously unwell.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
61. Utah. nt
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
62. WTF is wrong with her
That is so fucked up. She should be no where near children, including her own.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
67. What.an.idiot..
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
95. what proof the mother did this?
this isn't a woman's crime, just to go by common sense and demographics

it would be VERY odd that "proof" of this photoshop adventure would be found by a custodian in a school toilet...hmmm

i would look into this custodian's relationship w. the mom and anybody else that "mom" refused to go down on...i would need to DAMN good evidence the mom did this because just going by the odds, this is a man's crime, and a rejected man's crime, when it's so easy to destroy a life by doing a little photoshop

i don't think anybody should go to jail for a photoshop and when the photoshop COULD have been performed by any number of people...even more so...i don't know why anybody has kids these days, talk about "hostages to fortune," now among all the other ways you have a hostage to fortune any asshole w. a computer can do a photoshop and get you accused of creating child porn
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. I suggest you read the whole article.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. i read an article on mcmartin that was v. convincing back in the day
i've learned that when it comes to kids, child rape/porn, and hysteria...don't make up yr mind on the basis of one article

at some point you're allowed to use common sense

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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #104
109. and did that article indicate that there was physical evidence and a confession to the police?
I don't think you actually know much of anything about the McMartin case if you're comparing it to this.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #95
108. gee, surveillance footage and an admission by the mother aren't proof?
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