Utah Mother Doctored Photo to Show Girl, 13(From Daughter's school) Having Sex with Dog

[RamboLiberal]

A Utah woman is facing a battery of child pornography-related charges after she allegedly created a flyer depicting a 13-year-old girl engaged in bestiality and distributed photocopies of the picture around the girl's middle school.

Danette Stark, 37, a mother whose daughter attends the same Salt Lake City middle school, is accused of digitally superimposing the girl's face on a explicit image she found on the Internet depicting a naked adult woman having sex with a dog.

One of the flyers was discovered in late May by a custodian in a girl's bathroom at Northwest Middle School.

Salt Lake District Attorney Lohra Miller called the production and distribution of the flyer "heinous," but would not offer a motive for Stark's alleged crime.

"The motive is irrelevant," Miller said at a recent press conference. "In this case the heinous and despicable acts speak for themselves.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-mother-doctored-photo-show-girl-13-sex/story?id=11046984

Any fool can be a parent! They should get her kids away from this sick influence!

[Oregone]

1. A photoshop of a face on a naked adult body is child porn?

News to me. Odd case in its entirety. I mean really...why a dog? In all of the animal kingdom...

[SunnySong]

4. I think handing out the flyer to children would be the problem. nt

[Oregone]

6. Thats just distributing sub-normal porn

Child porn is illegal because it creates demand for the exploitation of the children.

In this case, no child was actually taken a picture of in a pornographic context

Yeah, I mean, this crazy nut probably violated all kinds of things, but child porn specifically?

[SunnySong]

7. They jailed a man for child porn in Iowa for having drawings of children.

It is a community standard thing... under the old law they could have thrown you in jail for having a VHS tape of Animal House or Pretty Woman.

[elehhhhna]

68. yes, digitally altered images are specifically child porn if they

look like they intend to represent a child doing something pornographic.

[Oregone]

71. Well, its a good thing Glen Beck is over 18 then

Because some of the flyers Ive seen of him...don't get me started

[devilgrrl]

31. That an adult created such a flyer doesn't strike you as kind of fucked-up?

:crazy:

[Oregone]

40. Very odd

I would of first went with a Rhino picture, but to each their own. :)

[LostinVA]

84. It is legally considered child porn

Plus, you have defamation of character and bestiality, which is illegal, thrown in.

Throw her ass in jail; and make her register as a sex offender. This is sick on so many different levels.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

41. Hell, the whole GOP is fucked up.

But is it a crime?

I think not.

[devilgrrl]

50. So that wouldn't fall under "slander" or "harassment"?

Think again.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

65. You are kidding, no?

You want the court to start a guardianship action, hire an atty to be the kid's rep, file suit on behalf of her child, against the mom, and seek damages for the daughter against her own mom? Is that what you want?

Talk about . . . . . . . . Ugh.

[devilgrrl]

69. Cool, send me a pic of your kid and I'll photoshop them fucking a cow. How about that?

:eyes:

I'm sure you'll just laugh it off as a silly prank....

[LostinVA]

hahahahaha

It's legally child porn. There is a precedent here.

[lolly]

105. It wasn't her own mother

From the article, it says the woman had a daughter at the school.

Sounds like it might be another "MySpace Mom" situation, where a mother takes it upon herself to get involved in her daughter's clique fights.

[malaise]

83. I'll take

beyond fucked-up for $2,000 Alex. Any bets she's a 'gawd-fearing ReTHUG

[Withywindle]

110. I agree. This is BEYOND fucked up.

The issue isn't a bad photoshop job, or even fictional images of nonexistent children in sexual situations (i.e., drawings)

The issue is defamation and sexual harassment of an ACTUAL child -- the child whose face was placed in the picture. A very real child, and someone who the perp actually knows.

This would not be OK to do to an adult woman. Would it be OK if some creep did it to a co-worker? No. It would be taken as gross sexual harassment. How much worse is it when it's a child?

[DCBob]

47. Yes, I believe it is. Child porn laws cover even just the appearance of child porn..

even if not actual. Which I think is correct. Society cannot tolerate child porn/abuse of any kind, even if simulated.

[Oregone]

51. So a naked adult woman in a diaper and pacifier is child porn?

I think its just fuckn strange

[DCBob]

56. If the intent is to make her look underage and in a sexual situation then yes..

I believe it can be considered child porn. It might be unfair and excessive in some cases but the spirit of the laws are correct.

[SunnySong]

58. That law thankfully was overturned... It caused films such as Pretty Woman or Animal House

to be reclassified as child porn and opened up innocent people to prosecution.

[DCBob]

66. I think there is some tolerance for mainstream movies, books, art etc..

where the intent is not to use a child in an erotic situation. Perhaps this case is different also, since the woman was not intending the photo to be used in a sexual manner. Not really sure but regardless its a nasty vicious thing to do.

[LostinVA]

88. No, it wasn't overturned -- it is child porn

This has nothing to do with a movie, where an adult woman is portrayed as being underage. The victim in the OP is a minor. It is legally child porn, along with a bunch of other stuff.

[L0oniX]

53. Locally the same thing happened and the courts ruled it wasn't child pr0n.

[SunnySong]

106. Maybe the dog is underaged????...

Isn't beastility against the law as well?

[LostinVA]

85. It is represented to be her, so yes

Legally, child porn.

Alyssa Milano has won lawsuits based on something very similar, and she is an adult.

[LWolf]

101. The body having sex with the dog is porn.

Photo-shopping a 13-yo girls face onto that body, and then distributing it to her peers at her school? I don't know if it's porn, but it's criminal in some form.

"Heinous" doesn't begin to describe it.

[Poll_Blind]

2. Seriously, I would never imagine anyone would do that in a million years.

Seriously.

:wtf:

PB

[xultar]

5. People are fucking crazy. CRAZY! And fgetting crazier by the day.

CRAZY. Something is wrong it is like the whole country is under some mass insanity trance.

[RKP5637]

10. I've wondered the same, are we in some type of mass experiment. Each day the

craziest gets crazier.

[Poll_Blind]

14. It freaks the shit out of me sometimes- that I still (at almost 40) don't have...

...all that much of a clue about the depth and breadth of humanity and, being honest with myself, am not so sure I have the guts to really find out. I think I'll stick to understanding the motivations of what I presume to be about 70-90+ percent of humankind and just write the rest off (like the lady in the story) as fundamentally broken in some way which should exclude them from inclusion into what I consider "humanity".

Shit just gets too nuts. I'm not sure whether it's getting nuttier now than at any time in the past but I think it could be the year 3000 and some human-ish being could be reading a news report about some other fucked-up nuttiness and will probbaly feel just as over-whelmed by the occasional insanity of it all.

Cold comfort.

PB

[seabeyond]

16. you have the internet now that brings things to a norm, that then has to be out done

at some point, that line becomes a norm that then again has to be outdone

it really is common sense that this would be happening.

[elehhhhna]

70. me too -- feel the same way

[Mojorabbit]

43. I agree

I wish we all lived near each other in a more hospitable atmosphere, an oasis of sanity. I wish you were my next door neighbor instead of the teabagger I have instead.

[JVS]

76. I'd expect a middle school student to make that. I guess I can see where a mom might...

get involved on her kid's behalf if the kid lacks shopping skills.

[Poll_Blind]

I dunno, man, heh heh, it's hard to imagine a 13 year old who's going to...

...go through the trouble to hunt down bestiality photos, photoshop her rival's head onto the woman in the photo, print up a bunch of them and pass them around school.

Actually, I don't know any kids or adult for that matter who are likely to go through the trouble to create such a presumably-humiliating bit of character assassination.

It's...it's the kind of nasty only an adult with some serious problems would come up with- or so it would seem.

PB

[JVS]

81. A kid would do the photoshops and circulate it through email, some social network, or cell phone

A mom would use here PTA-lady-kung-fu to take the photoshop, run it through the copier at work, and get them to the school. I have a hard time imagining the mom circulating them among kids, but consider it very likely that her daughter did this part and mom is trying to take the rap for her on it, as she's already in deep shit and the kid could at least be spared the criminal record.

[Poll_Blind]

98. Yes. What you said. I think that does make the most sense. If a kid...

..was predominately "behind it", it does make more sense they would send stuff like that out via a social networking site or whatever.

PB

[SunnySong]

3. Flyer??? "The motive is irrelevant," I didn't realize that Batshit Crazy

was considered a motive nowadays.

[jmowreader]

17. I doubt batshit craziness was the exact motive

My best guess is the girl whose face appeared on this poster was more popular than her own child is, and she wanted to destroy the other girl in the eyes of her classmates. This is Mormon country, where prudishness is pretty common.

I wonder how the mom got the idea to use a dogfucker image in this. That's REALLY weird; I didn't know they had Linda Lovelace videos in Utah.

[FedUpWithIt All]

8. Very sick and twisted human being to do something so cruel to a child.

When i read this last night i was disgusted beyond words. As a similarly aged woman i cannot even fathom sitting around and investing so much energy trying to come up with ways to hurt and humiliate a little girl. Just cannot wrap my head around this type of individual. :banghead:

[no_hypocrisy]

9. The mother thinks she's still 13 and Queen of the Girls Room.

Sadistic Bully!

[burnsei sensei]

12. You've captured the very essence of it.

In Utah, where the culture is constantly conformist, a trick like this is unusual. But the thinking and social dynamic behind it, the contempt and brutality, are all part of the culture there.
I should know.
I was one of the out group, and was constantly reminded of it.
Salt Lake City will never live its culture down.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. I bet that woman is a psychopath.

As in, textbook psychopath. EEG differences in tests and all.

[hlthe2b]

13. Good Lord... I'd like to see all kids (and all animals) kept from

this bizarre woman...

It pains me so much to see some try to pervert everything--even the pure compassion and nurturing love most of us have for children and our animals.

[pscot]

15. Mental illness

I't no joke.

[mike_c]

18. gawd I know this is going to get me in trouble, so prepare to pile on...

...but fer pete's sake, mutilating kittens is a "heinous and dispicable act." This is just schoolyard bullying writ large. No, I'm NOT defending the perpetrator, but what the FUCK ever happened to a rational sense of proportion?

Lately we've seen corrective surgery described as "female genital mutilation," declining honeybee populations predicted to destroy the human race, and now a nasty prank elevated to the level of genocide.

:rant:

[PCIntern]

19. OK, I'll 'pile on"...

you're so DEAD WRONG it hurts.

Just b/c people actually "fuck chickens", to quote Philip Roth, does not mean that it's OK to had out pics of someone's son doing it, OK?

[mike_c]

22. you missed the point utterly....

Of course it's not OK. It's sucks. It was a mean spirited thing to do. It's nasty. She should be appropriately reprimanded or punished. Nothing I said contradicts that.

But "heinous and despicable?" If that's how the prosecutor describes photoshopping a nasty and embarrassing pic, what's left for really awful crimes? Or are they more-or-less all the same?

[PCIntern]

26. No I did not miss the point utterly...

...I am so fed up with the ridiculousness around here these days...do you mean to tell me that some woma who's 37 frigging years old puts a pic of a girl having sex with a dog all over the place, that that's a "prank"...?

I jsut erased all the sentences which I wrote about this - probably would have gotten me banned...I fucking give up.

[mike_c]

29. me too-- no one seems to actually read anymore....

They just pass their eyes over posts and then substitute whatever shit was in their heads for what the poster actually said.

NOTHING I SAID EXCUSES OR DEFENDS WHAT THE MOTHER DID. IT WAS WRONG. IT WAS NASTY. SHE DESERVES CRITICISM AND POSSIBLY PUNISHMENT.

HYPERBOLE ONLY CREATES FALSE IMPRESSIONS ABOUT THE REAL NATURE OF THE CRIME.

What part of that is so hard to understand? Do you honestly equate this with really "heinous and despicable" acts like genocide or murder?

[PCIntern]

35. Lemme ask you a question:

how much suicide do you think is caused by crap like this? How much anorexia/ How much bulimia? These kids are never the same...so it may not be genocide, but it's heinous, and horrible and discgusting. And if you feel that you need to post exculpatory nonsense in order to intellectually rationalize the destruction of a 13 year old girl, then go right ahead. I will only say, as a parent, that if this had happened to my kid, the creator would be looking not for an attorney, but an orthopedist if she were lucky, that is.

[elehhhhna]

72. Yep. When is child abuse a prank? We're talking about a 13 y/o girl, here --

and they are very tender at 13. We're talking scarred for life, maybe.

[LostinVA]

90. If it's done to an ADULT, it's against the law

[devilgrrl]

52. Let's see someone pull that on a close female friend of yours and see how you react.

:popcorn:

[mike_c]

57. I'm sure I'd be angry-- anyone would....

But jeez. Heinous? As I've said all over this subthread, if this is "heinous," what room does that leave for crimes that kill hundreds of thousands? I mean, none of my comments are about excusing the crime itself-- I'm not even sure what the actual crime is (i.e. what specific laws were broken). I'm just tired of all the over-the-top language whipping up disproportionate outrage all the time. Maybe I just need a DU break.

[devilgrrl]

59. So you're grubbling over the use of the word "heinous". Okay, how about "Fucked Up" then?

:eyes:

BTW, you're the one over-reacting here - over a poorly written headline of all things. :eyes:

[mike_c]

64. it is indeed pretty fucked up....

And yes, I'll also cop to being more perturbed than this single instance warrants. It seems part of a general pattern though, and that's what disturbs me.

[LanternWaste]

99. What then are the precise, relevant and objective...

What then are the precise, relevant and objective words you believe should be used in this particualr case? On what is that choice based on?

(Your use of the word "disturbing"... is that not hyperbole too? If not, what is the precise and relevant difference from the appropriate words you appear to take issue with?)

[valerief]

63. You're right, Mike. It was wrong and pervy and deserving of punishment, but heinous it is not.

Our national leaders are guilty of heinous crimes.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

74. yeah and I hate freedom, too....

Good lord. Can you even read?

[elehhhhna]

78. if what she did is not emotional abuse & the distribution of porn,

what is it?

[mike_c]

79. it is exactly those things...

...and I would not have raised any objection whatsoever to calling it that, subject to the caveat that there are likely specific statutes that apply in both cases, so the allegation would need to be proved. But the act was certainly abusive and pornographic under any definition. I've never once disputed that. I agree with it wholeheartedly.

See my other comments in this sub-thread if that seems incongruous with the conclusions you jumped to. I have never condoned or approved of them, nor given any indication that they are "all right by me" or however you characterized it.

[LanternWaste]

82. apt and applicable in this case.

You have of course knowledge of the definitions of the words, yes? To be safe, I double checked the definitions myself and they seem to be both apt and applicable in this case.

[mike_c]

87. OK-- if jaywalking is at one end of a continuum and killing millions at the other...

...and modifying this pic to make fun of a teenaged girl is somewhere along that same continuum-- and it's heinous and despicable-- how would you describe genocide, or jaywalking, in words that distinguished them from the totally innocuous and the totally, um, heinous? Can you see my point?

Sure, the terms fit if we isolate any single crime and disconnect it from the rest of the world and what humans do to one another.

[LanternWaste]

96. In context, the definitions do not appear to fit with Jaywalking

In context, the definitions do not appear apropos to Jaywalking. You can of course better explain how they do, yes?

[LostinVA]

89. This was done to a MINOR, by an adult

If an adult did this to another adult, they could be sued and would lose, as some celebrities have done.

[mike_c]

93. as indeed they should....

eom

[FedUpWithIt All]

20. How is a 13 yr old girl supposed to defend herself against this "mother"?

Young teenagers kill themselves due to less humiliation from their peers. But this wasn't a peer, an adult (in age only of course) did this to this child. What recourse would this child have if not for the reaction of the community around her?

[mike_c]

24. I agree wholeheartedly....

Nothing I said seeks to excuse or defend the mother's actions.

[LostinVA]

92. What you said does excuse it -- just a prank

[mike_c]

94. sigh....

I specifically said exactly the opposite. Perhaps you should read those posts phonetically?

[RamboLiberal]

21. Do you remember being 13?

This could be devistating to a kid. Young people have been known to commit suicide over this kind of bullying. I'm glad I'm not a teen now with all the new forms of bullying including electronic harrassment.

Bad enough peers do the cruel bullying - but to have an adult pile on instead of correcting the behavior!

You are insensitive!

[mike_c]

23. you missed the point, too....

See above.

[KittyWampus]

25. writing stuff off as just "a nasty prank" is what bullies do. It's sadly ingrained in our society-

to minimize this sort of abuse.

[redqueen]

28. +1

[Radical Activist]

27. "just schoolyard bullying"

Not dealing with that seriously enough in proper proportion has been a problem for a long time.

[mike_c]

34. well, I agree, but that's not really the point, is it...?

I mean, do you really believe this was the moral equivalent of crimes that are truly "heinous?"

[redqueen]

37. What do you think "heinous" means?

Why do you think it's somehow reserved for things like murder and genocide?

Why are you nitpicking like this?

It comes across as a desire to minimize this disgusting act as 'just a prank'.

Do you honestly consider it 'just a prank'?

[mike_c]

45. good question....

While we can both go to the dictionary and post definitions, I'll answer without one because my initial reaction was without one. I think "heinous" means "exceptionally cruel and terrible," with emphasis on "exceptionally." Genocide is heinous. Murder is heinous. War crimes are heinous.

It seems to me that calling this woman's actions "heinous and despicable" equates them with things like genocide, deliberate torture and murder, ethnic cleansing, etc. As I've tried to say several times in this subthread, I'm talking about proportional response, not defending ANYTHING she did.

Finally, yes-- I consider this a prank. A bad, nasty, unwarranted prank. Truly ugly. Reprehensible. But an act on the level of a prank rather than a act on the same level as something like torture and murder.

[redqueen]

48. Thanks... I would disagree with you on it being a prank...

becuase for me, it goes way beyond having someone put saran wrap across a door before you try to walk through it... or covering all your stuff in foil... those, to me, are pranks.

As for the adjective being the right or wrong one, I hope you can see how not everyone would have the same reservations about these words being used for what this woman did.

[onenote]

49. you realize that you have just equated genocide and mutilating kittens?

In your first post on this subject, you characterized mutilating kittens as a heinous act. You now say that other examples of heinous acts are gennocide. Or just plain old murder. SO that's a pretty wide range: genocide. murder. mutilating kittens. Yet not wide enough to capture the deliberate action of an adult to psychologically "torture" a child.

[mike_c]

54. now we've really gotten off track....

You understand that was an analogy, don't you? And a bit tongue-in-cheek?

But just between me and you, if I were king of the world anyone who harms kittens would have to run for the rest of their lives.... :-)

[hobbit709]

39. Schoolyard bullying involves ones peers

A 37 year old woman doing this to kids is NOT schoolyard bullying. In many ways it's worse.

[Brickbat]

30. I think "heinous and dispicable" pretty much covers what this woman did, quite well. It's not like

there's a finite amount of outrage in this world and we might forget to condemn kitten-mutilators and genocide-committers if we express our disgust and horror at what this woman did.

[mike_c]

38. I suppose you have a point there....

It's just that I've been seeing so many over-the-top responses lately. Everything seems hyperbolic around here these days.

[Brickbat]

107. I think it would be a sad world if we didn't think what this woman did to a child was heinous and

despicable. I do not want to live in a society where it's seen as anything but that. I feel so sorry for the 13-year-old, and anyone who saw it. It's hard to forget an image like that.

[onenote]

32. delete - wrong location

[onenote]

33. so how is what this woman did NOT "heinous and despicable"?

No one is claiming that its the most heinous and most despicable act ever perpetrated or that its worse than mutilating kittens or whatever.

Its not as if different acts can be heinous and despicable.

[mike_c]

36. it's a question of proportion....

I mean, if photoshopping a nasty pic is "heinous," what are rape, murder, and genocide? Triple-mega-walloping heinous? Please recall that my comments were NOT about what the woman did-- I agree that it was wrong. Rather, I'm dismayed that there seems so little sense of proportional response.

[LisaL]

42. We are talking about an adult woman accused

of not just photoshopping this photo but also of distributing it around middle school where the girl was studying.
I fail to see what your problem is with calling this alleged act "heinous."

[onenote]

44. The problem with your proportionality theory:

The terms heinous and despicable can apply to a wide range of actions. They are not reserved for only the most evil actions. If that was the case, then after the Holocaust, the term "heinous" would simply have to be retired for any event that fell short of killing millions (unless the Holocaust was a "triple-mega-walloping heinous" event while other events are just "heinous").

[mike_c]

46. well, at least we've gotten beyond the allegation that I'm defending it!

Good points. Like I said up thread, I'm reacting as much to all the other over-the-top responses I've seen here lately as I am to this one.

[RamboLiberal]

75. Heinous - hateful; odious; abominable; totally reprehensible:

Seems to me it describes what this woman did. You're quibbling over a definition of how a word is used.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heinous

[mike_c]

77. yes, I am....

And no one appears interested in the broader point I was trying to make, so I'll stop now.

[PCIntern]

80. It's not that no one was interested...

it's that it was flat-out mistaken. It's OK...we've all done that...

[LanternWaste]

86. English adjectives include the implication of degrees relative to the appropriate context

You do realize that most English adjectives include the implication of degrees relative to the appropriate context, yes?

One may "hate" both the hard-ass boss and the Pol Pot's of the world, that the word is valid in both cases, that the speaker is truthful in both cases.

[mike_c]

91. I do understand....

But my point was that the language we use often determines the emotional context we create. Just look at the responses in a typical DU thread about crimes. If the OP describes something in hyperbolic terms, it almost always skews readers' responses toward equally hyperbolic outrage. That's just not necessary, nor is it helpful. It creates a mob mentality.

[LanternWaste]

97. It's not hyperbole if it's appropriate to the context...

It's not hyperbole if the definition is appropriate to the context... that is in fact, the opposite of hyperbole.

You see a mob, I see people upset about child abuse. I imagine for the most part, we see merely that which better validates our opinions.

ed: sp

[LostinVA]

102. +1

[LWolf]

103. It's not "schoolyard bullying" when it's perpetrated by a parent.

And if you think "schoolyard bullying" isn't serious, please think again.

http://www.newsplex.com/home/headlines/95509769.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/03/29/2010-03-29_phoebe_prince_south_hadley_high_schools_new_girl_driven_to_suicide_by_teenage_cy.html

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/19233010/detail.html

[ismnotwasm]

55. My husband received a phone porn pic

It depicted what appeared to be a young girl performing a sex act with a dog, with the girl sitting in reddish fluid. My husband was upset to say the least and went to the police. To make a long story short, he traced the origins of the picture to an adult woman's website. She evidently makes money dressing up like a little girl, so technically it wasn't child porn. The picture was also photoshopped evidently so technically, it wasn't even sex with a dog.

But that didn't make it more pleasant to view.


Photoshop is a staple of child pornographers, some pedophiles have 'clubs' where you need a certain number of pictures to join. An expert nurse witness on the topic at a forensic nursing conference I attended said she would never post pictures of young children on-line. The images are easily lifted.

In this case the woman used the image of a child engaged in sexual acts for--as far as I'm concerned--the purpose of some sort of exploitation or humiliation. Whether the picture is 'real' or not isn't the issue. It's still child pornography.

[TexasObserver]

60. This conduct was heinous, and probably criminal.

Frankly, I think the mother should be committed. She's dangerously unwell.

[valerief]

61. Utah. nt

[Tailormyst]

62. WTF is wrong with her

That is so fucked up. She should be no where near children, including her own.

[The Backlash Cometh]

67. What.an.idiot..

[pitohui]

95. what proof the mother did this?

this isn't a woman's crime, just to go by common sense and demographics

it would be VERY odd that "proof" of this photoshop adventure would be found by a custodian in a school toilet...hmmm

i would look into this custodian's relationship w. the mom and anybody else that "mom" refused to go down on...i would need to DAMN good evidence the mom did this because just going by the odds, this is a man's crime, and a rejected man's crime, when it's so easy to destroy a life by doing a little photoshop

i don't think anybody should go to jail for a photoshop and when the photoshop COULD have been performed by any number of people...even more so...i don't know why anybody has kids these days, talk about "hostages to fortune," now among all the other ways you have a hostage to fortune any asshole w. a computer can do a photoshop and get you accused of creating child porn

[LisaL]

100. I suggest you read the whole article.

[pitohui]

104. i read an article on mcmartin that was v. convincing back in the day

i've learned that when it comes to kids, child rape/porn, and hysteria...don't make up yr mind on the basis of one article

at some point you're allowed to use common sense

[onenote]

109. and did that article indicate that there was physical evidence and a confession to the police?

I don't think you actually know much of anything about the McMartin case if you're comparing it to this.

[onenote]

108. gee, surveillance footage and an admission by the mother aren't proof?