I just want to cry. Obama is still committed to the "mission" in Afghanistan. nt

[gateley]

[bluethruandthru]

1. Now, if we only knew what the "mission" was..... n/t

[notesdev]

9. We know the mission

keep the defense contractors fat and happy

Say, did you know BP is the #1 supplier of fuel to our military? How are they going to pay restitution for the Gulf devastation of we pull out of the war and cut their revenues?

[AnArmyVeteran]

Mission is to have soldiers & civilians killed and drain our treasury. Some mission.

It doesn't take much of an IQ to know there will never be any real win in Afghanistan. We're just going to pour more and more money and blood into that country without any success. No other countries' armies have ever been successful in that country. It is foolhardy to believe the US will succeed. Fighting a war using a conventional army against an unconventional enemy is a totally inept endeavor. Why doesn't Obama just pull the plug on Bush's War? Not another drop of blood should be shed there.

[bluethruandthru]

22. Obama's a smart guy...does he not see this?

I hate to think that he's so callous that he doesn't care about American's dying to keep defense contractors and the pentagon happy! Does he honestly believe that Afghanistan is going to get rid of it's feuding tribal history and become a democracy?

[AnArmyVeteran]

36. This is so crazy. I don't get it either.

President Obama needs to STOP thinking of any political consequences and END this idiotic war. Staying there and fighting is a fool's endeavor. There is absolutely ZERO chance of winning. I am so damned sick and tired of useless, needless wars and those who support them. President Obama could do all of the following RIGHT NOW: End the Afghanistan War. Close Gitmo. End DADT. Etc, etc, etc... So why isn't he doing them????????????????? Why is he catering to the right wing when he should know any appeasement to them won't convert one of them to his side and only make our country worse?

I just don't get it. This is like Vietnam II and any person with an IQ over 70 should know that.

(I can't say what I really think here)

[Chulanowa]

61. You make it sound very simple

Almost like the Afghan war is a slumber party! We should just smile and wave as we pile into a car and leave the next morning, without any care in the world! No fuss, no muss, right?

[AnArmyVeteran]

70. Actually it is...

I didn't describe it as a slumber party. We tried to fight a conventional war in Vietnam and that was doomed to failure. There are a lot of similarities in the two wars. The Viet Cong were everywhere. They didn't wear uniforms, just as any enemies in Afghanistan don't wear uniforms. In conventional wars between two countries each army is dressed in their military uniforms. It was easy to know who your enemies were. But this war is different. Everyone around you in Afghanistan can be your enemy and can try to kill you. That's why I said you can't win a conventional war against an unconventional enemy. It's like being in a huge room trying to swat a million flies with your hands. It won't work.

President Obama could have closed Gitmo by now, but instead it is still open and a terrorist recruiting tool. President Obama could have ended DADT overnight with an executive order. And President Obama could have began a pullout of Afghanistan the day after he assumed office. It is simple to do the RIGHT thing. It only gets complicated when people allow themselves to get influenced by political posturing, or worse, succumb to the will of your enemy in the right wing.

I worked tirelessly for a year to get candidate-Obama elected. I was one of his delegates. And while he was campaigning he made a lot of promises, and as of today, most of them are unfulfilled. I didn't expend all of my time, energy and money to have someone not live up to his promises. I worked to have someone who was proactive and would stop the madness from the previous evil Bush regime.

I am not expecting the impossible. I'm expecting my leaders to do what is right and to do it now. That is what they were elected to do. That is why millions of people worked so hard to get them into office. I don't want all of my efforts wasted. Do you?

[Chulanowa]

85. I honestly don't care what you did for a year

You could have sat on the couch, flogging your wii every time Sarah Palin's face showed up, for all it matters. You're wrong either way.

We can't just walk into a place, beat the fuck out of the people there, and leave because our arms got tired. Which is pretty much what you're saying we should do.

Now, I don't think this war has been managed well by either administration, and agree that it needs to end. I simply don't think hauling ass is the way to end it, nor do I think we should just leave Afghanistan in the state we brought it to.

Simply put, if we follow your "plan" we'll be back in 15 years, if that long.

[AnArmyVeteran]

89. I don't care if I get your approval or not. But if...

But if not for hard working people like me you would be watching Vice President Palin and President John McCain and moaning about THEIR escalations of the perpetual war in Afghanistan. And believe me you would be yelling a lot louder about them leading our country than President Obama.

If we left Afghanistan right now it wouldn't be worse than when we went there. We've dumped a ton of money in their laps. And built schools, infrastructures, etc.

Why would we be back there in 15 years, because under the current policy we will never leave. We will still be there in 15 years anyway. Pulling out is the only logical and reasonable thing to do. Or should we build their entire country up using trillions of our dollars while letting our own country's infrastructure continue to deteriorate because we don't have the money to fix bridges, roads and sewer systems?

Charity begins at home. If we can't take care of ourselves we surely won't be able to take care of anyone else.

I'd rather be 'left' and right, than 'right' and wrong.

I like President Obama. I support him 100%. But I know he has it in him to do so much more. And that's what I expect him to do as the president of our country. And it's my duty as a citizen to demand that he do what is best for OUR country.

[Chulanowa]

92. You're seriously asking this?

"Or should we build their entire country up using trillions of our dollars"

if the girl is good enough to take to bed, then she's good enough for your child support payments.

[bluethruandthru]

101. So you think that's what we should do? n/t

[Chulanowa]

102. We spent thirty years demolishing their country

As recently as 1978, it was actually a really nice place, a social democracy even, with strong environmental protections, the most modern infrastructure and technological markets in South Asia (and debatably the whole of the continent, barring Israel and the Soviet Union.) Women in Afghanistan were liberated and well-educated, and the country was developing quite a reputation for its medical personel.

Of course this was much too socialist for the United States. So we gave massive amounts of funding to Islamic and Rightist rebel factions to attack the government, which asked the Soviets for help to defend against the apparent civil war. And we saw how that went. For ten years after the Russians left, we were funding both sides of the Afghan civil war; the Taliban because they destroyed the opium, and the other factions because, well, the Taliban were assholes. Then in 2001, we decided to play Russia, and invaded.

Thirty years. Three decades of breaking this country over our knee.

Do I think we owe them?

Yes. I think we do.

[bluethruandthru]

104. We've done alot of crap to alot of countries over the years and

unfortunately, we can't fix everything we've broken! I'm sick of all the talk about cutting social security and medicaid and education and infrastructure and on and on and on...because we don't have any money!! Yet, we've always got money for war!

[Chulanowa]

105. I'm sick of that too

We have a $533 billion military budget. we could easily hack most of that off and turn it into a department of reconstruction, to help out those nations we have fucked.

We can't fix everything we've broken, but we can at least put some fucking effort into it. Instead all I hear is "But they're brown! But they're Muslim! But they talk funny! Fuck them, an elections coming up!"

[spanone]

95. get out now. now. now.

[Chulanowa]

97. Who are you, Veruca Salt?

[bluethruandthru]

73. I agree totally..but I keep thinking maybe I'm missing something.

Maybe I don't understand the worst case scenarios for all of these things. I don't claim to be an expert on any of these...but it seems...at least with Afghanistan...there's absolutely nothing to be gained by staying. Nothing! Unless we plan to loot their resources. I really hope that's not the end goal.

[lib2DaBone]

75. I thought Mr. Obama had a better understanding of the WOT...

(ahem...) the true nature of the economic forces creating and driving this drain on human life and resources.

But I can't comment because it wouldn't be productive to the goals of the DLC. Must remain a team player.

[glitch]

40. Don't forget: plunder their resources for the corporations backing the war.

Our people + our treasure + Afghanistan's people + their treasure = transnational corporate war profiteers' loot and profit.

Pretty simple equation.

[janedum]

19. I heard some dumbass on R/W radio this morning say ...

"We should be Iraq, not Afghanistan".
"iraq"????
wtf FOR???

[bluethruandthru]

24. Because their supreme leaders...bush and rush told them that Iraq

is full of brown bad guys!!

[Radical Activist]

84. It was restated very clearly today.

"Make no mistake, we have a clear goal: we are going to break the Taliban's momentum, we are going to build Afghan capacity, we are going to relentlessly apply pressure on Al Qaeda and its leadership, strengthening the ability of both Afghanistan and Pakistan to do the same."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. McChrystal was not fired because of the war in Afghanistan, or because of his strategy in there.

Nobody had any business expecting either to change.

[gateley]

8. I understand that, I was just hopeful this might provide an opportunity to revisit it. nt

[tridim]

3. The mission is to get out by next year.

I'm glad he's committed to getting the fuck out of there ASAP.

[NightWatcher]

5. out of Afghanistan??? I havent heard that yet

[librechik]

12. yup--out by 2011--but McChrystal and others want to stay

so they throw down as many obstacles and demands as possible to make reaching that goal impossible. Obama looks bad, they cna claim circumstances compel them, it's an Obama Lose/BP and oil warriors win scenario--again.

[earth mom]

20. Obama did NOT say that in that speech. C'mon now.

:eyes:

[tridim]

26. No he didn't, but it is still the plan.

You can claim anything you want, but that doesn't change the reality that the exit date has been set.

[Catherina]

33. Bookmarked so we can revisit your post when that date is past with no change. n/t

[gateley]

46. I didn't quote verbatim but he DID say they did not differ on policy (again, not verbatim).

My point is there was no indication they might review their current policy, goals, whatever, and that's what I was so hoping for.

[bdamomma]

4. what is the "mission" what crap.

we need to come home.

[arcadian]

6. The Spanish built missions to subjugate the indigenous peoples of far off lands.

Maybe Obama wants to build missions. Maybe that's what he means. :shrug:

[MineralMan]

13. That's disingenuous.

That is clearly not President Obama's goal.

[arcadian]

25. Extraction of natural resources from the colony for shipment to the homeland.

Same mission as the Spanish missions. The comparison is apropos.

[glitch]

43. The natural resources looted won't be shipped to the homeland. Transnational corporations

will sell them on the world market.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. For political reasons there is no way

this president will end this before reelection... yes, it sucks... and yes, it will continue the drain on the country.

[TheKentuckian]

42. If that is so then he is a feckless, craven coward who should not hold this or any office

There is no "political" justification for stealing desperately needed resources from the American people, pouring our people's blood onto the gravel, and leave a multitude of burdens on the future.

What is the purpose of power if you destroy all that you are and ever seek to be to gain it?

Bring them home for America, bring them home for our future.

Utilizing war as a device of triangulation is as wrong as nearly any action taken by any President. This isn't a game.

[SammyWinstonJack]

78. +1000

:applause:

[gateley]

49. You know, yesterday when he gave his mini-statement he added that he wanted

to stress that the most important thing was making sure that this was worth the potential loss of American lives (I'm poorly paraphrasing, but I know you saw it), so that put a spark of hope in me and I've been fanning the flame since. It would have been the perfect opportunity. But as always, that's from MY viewpoint, I have no idea what all enters into such a decision and it's never as simple as we think. And as you indicate, there's always the politics.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. My take is that he has no hope for re-election if he DOESN'T end this

before the next election. If the planned withdrawal doesn't begin in July '11, as scheduled, he's toast.

[CountAllVotes]

10. nothing like

cutting off your nose to spite your face Obama. :mad:

:dem:

[Nite Owl]

11. Nothing changes.

Hoping this could be chance to review a failing policy but Petraeus is the author of 'the surge'. More of the same.

[Gin]

14. more...we won't look back crap

[gateley]

18. Good point - I'd forgotten Patraeus's authorship of that surge. nt

[spiritual_gunfighter]

44. I fully expect another surge before the supposed drawdown in July 2011

It is hinted at in the Rolling Stone article that the military wants a surge before then.

[Nite Owl]

45. And it wasn't the surge that

brought the violence under control even though they give him the credit. I think it was the payments that they made to the local leaders in Iraq which others had asked them to do way before the surge and they ignored. I hope it all works out and the troops get home and civilians stop being killed no matter who gets the credit.

[gateley]

80. Agree with everything you say. nt

[okieinpain]

15. if he walks away without at least trying. bombs will be going off

in new york and other places like they do in iraq.

[LiberalAndProud]

37. fight them over there, after all.

Bush's bullshit lives on.

[frylock]

48. we've been trying for nine years

[earth mom]

16. Of course he is. The terror meme is alive and well.

The boogeyman of "al qaeda" is what makes the war machine trillions of dollars.

Nothing has changed people. Wake up and see the proof right before your eyes!

[kenny blankenship]

17. Johnson.

Followed by Nixon.

[w8liftinglady]

21. Considering this has been for 10 years now....I do,too

when I see the way my son and his comrades have suffered for....what?Not to mention the people who live there.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tridim]

30. Thank gawd for the ignore feature.

[Gin]

32. McCrystal got a free pass to walk away from that mess we call

a war....he left behind our treasure to be killed...for what?

when I hear compliments about him from Obama..it sickens me

[kenny blankenship]

47. He licked him all over!

Because he's scared of people saying he fired McChrystal out of petty personal vindictiveness. I guess I would have done the same thing, if I were unwilling to level with the American people about the real situation over there.

[gateley]

57. To a person, military experts I've heard have all highly praised McC as a great

warrior and that he's had a brilliant career. These people understand what makes a good soldier so I defer to their expertise. I don't think Obama's praise was misplaced. Although McC fucked up, that doesn't negate what he has accomplished during his service.

I hate that we're there, I think we need to leave, but I think Obama spoke the truth about McC, I do NOT believe Obama said those things because he was scared of what people might say.

[EFerrari]

59. Did they praise his abuse of prisoners, too?

[gateley]

81. Why yes, yes they did! That's what garnered their greatest respect!

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

91. Red Cross confirms 'second jail' at Bagram, Afghanistan

The US airbase at Bagram in Afghanistan contains a facility for detainees that is distinct from its main prison, the Red Cross has confirmed to the BBC.

Nine former prisoners have told the BBC that they were held in a separate building, and subjected to abuse.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8674179.stm

McChrystal has continued the Bush abuse and torture policies and no decent person can possibly respect him.

[gateley]

108. Well what astounds me is that apparently finding and killing "bad guys" is precisely

what makes him a "good warrior". My snarky response was because they KNOW the vile things he's done, but that appears to be okay. He has followed orders to achieve their objectives, so that's why they're praising him. I can't reconcile that shit in my head.

[MineralMan]

38. Yes, it's very good that he's not like Bush.

That's why he won the election. That's why the Republicans fight him every inch of the way.

Oh...were you being sarcastic? What a surprise...

[mike_c]

27. what "mission?"

Seriously. What the fuck is the "mission?"

[kenny blankenship]

39. To not lose.

To not be in office when we lose. To not be the President "who lost Afghanistan". For Generals, like McChrystal, to not be in command when we lose. For Privates, to somehow stay alive as the higher ups use your life to cover their ass.

[phasma ex machina]

28. Deleted. Too cynical. nt

[LiberalAndProud]

29. Yes. Me too.

Why can't we just GET THE FUCK OUT!

Empty words about dismantling Al Quaida. We have as good a chance of dismantling the church in the US.

Let us get out now.


July 2011. So far away.

[gateley]

60. I honestly didn't even think Al Q was still a factor in Afghanistan. I could be

way off, but I view it as the corrupt government and the Taliban, and neither like Al Q. So that's why I really didn't understand what we're doing there as I thought Al Q had pretty much vamoosed. :shrug: I really really really thought Obama would have been thinking "I wish I would have listened to Joe", but alas...

It will be interesting when leaks start coming out, to see if looking at alternate plans was even on the table.

[LiberalAndProud]

86. That's the thing, isn't it?

The speech sounded so like the speech we heard time and time and time again from the not-so-great GWB. It is clear in my mind that this is the same old propoganda, without so much as a revision in the wording.

I recognize the lie, no matter who speaks it.

[jillan]

31. I have to disagree here. It wasn't the right time.

Do they need to take another look in the very near future? Yes.

But not today. This was enough for one day.

[gateley]

62. As I was replying to your other post I was starting to think the same way. That

regardless of what is really in their plans, they just can't pull the plug or give the impression that things are grinding to a halt.

My OP was a knee jerk reaction because I unrealistically was hoping for a "we're outta there" statement.

[Greyskye]

34. Golden opportunity down the crapper.

:hurts:

What a waste.

[Better Today]

35. As much as I want that war over, and believe it to be at least illegal, it would NOT be a good idea

for Obama to substantially change course because of an insubordinate general. It would then seem even more like he was bullied or coaxed into keeping this war going. And to his credit, this is one thing Obama has not changed his position. Note the credit is only for not changing position since the campaign, NOT credit for his position, that I disagree with.

[mvd]

41. Just so the right thing is done, I don't think it matters how

Americans would love for Obama to bring the war to an end.

[Better Today]

71. He didn't campaign on that. And yes, it does matter how.

[mvd]

77. Well IMO, as long as it works, it works

Obama will be fine in the polls if he ends the war in any way.

[HughMoran]

52. I agree

[HughMoran]

51. Imagine what would have happened if he chose this occasion to bail out

Bye Bye Obama - that would have been a fatal decision for his Presidency.

[gateley]

64. And, on thinking about it some more, now was not the right time to throw

ANOTHER wrench into the works. "Oh yeah, and by the way, we're leaving Afghanistan."

I'd just whipped myself into such a hopeful frenzy that I crashed when the real-life Obama didn't mimic the script I'd written for him.

[HughMoran]

74. We all want to get out of that friggin' hell hole

In the end, we all know it's likely to be for naught - 10 years and countess families destroyed - for what?

[gateley]

82. I almost envision it as a lake. We put a huge boulder in the middle of the

lake and smaller boulders elsewhere here and there causing the water to kind of have to move around us, but once we remove the boulders it will be as though they were never there.

[LiberalAndProud]

93. I didn't hope for a policy change. I certainly didn't expect it.

I do wish for a change in rhetoric. I don't want to hear the same tired meme we heard from the feckless shrub. It was bullshit when Bush said it the first time. It doesn't smell better when repeated by a man I admire.

[Fire Walk With Me]

53. There are still problems in Afghanistan. Obama knows what he is doing.

"No war" is a wonderful goal, but to quote jms, "Sometimes the price of peace is victory over those who don't want it."

[dflprincess]

56. We were told to trust that Johnson & Nixon knew what they were doing too

It turned out they didn't. It also turned out that they both knew there was no good reason to stay in Vietnam or any chance of "victory".

How many names for the Iraq/Afghanistan memorial will it take before we can leave? I think we already have way too many.

[Fire Walk With Me]

69. Iraq was a grab for oil which Obama must turn into a stablized country.

Afghanistan is a mess, and has been utilized by some who work against this country.

I do not get the sense that Obama is lying as Nixon etc. have.

:shrug:

[dflprincess]

88. Everytime he invokes or alludes to "terra" as the reason for being there he is lying. n/t

[IOKIYAL]

54. Very Silly. Why do you guys set yourselves up?

the only people talking about a change of plan in Afghanistan was the media. Obama gave you no such indication.

[gateley]

65. At the end of his comment yesterday he stressed that our presence there must

be worth the potential loss of American lives. I thought that may have been an indication. I jumped on it, I admit.

[Chulanowa]

67. You really need to ask?

DU is full of people who's entire purpose for being here is to bash Obama, even if they have to lie, obfuscate, and make things up to do it

[FiveGoodMen]

106. It's O K If You Are A _______________ ?

[live love laugh]

55. Did you cry for all the years Bush stayed there? nt

[Forkboy]

58. Dumb question.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tallahasseedem]

96. Jeezus...

If your going to post shit like this, spell the President's name correctly.

[Travis Coates]

99. I would have but I was high NT

[Unvanguard]

66. Did you really expect otherwise? He made his decision, he is sticking to it.

If it was wrong then, it is obviously wrong now, but since he made it then, I'm not sure why anyone would expect him not to continue it now.

[IcyPeas]

68. ..... Perpetual War....

Two things stood out for me. this quote from the article:

"The only foreign invader to have any success here was Genghis Khan – and he wasn't hampered by things like human rights, economic development and press scrutiny. The COIN doctrine, bizarrely, draws inspiration from some of the biggest Western military embarrassments in recent memory: France's nasty war in Algeria (lost in 1962) and the American misadventure in Vietnam (lost in 1975). McChrystal, like other advocates of COIN, readily acknowledges that counterinsurgency campaigns are inherently messy, expensive and easy to lose."

also,the last sentence of the Rolling Stone Article:

"So far, counterinsurgency has succeeded only in creating a never-ending demand for the primary product supplied by the military: perpetual war. There is a reason that President Obama studiously avoids using the word "victory" when he talks about Afghanistan. Winning, it would seem, is not really possible. Not even with Stanley McChrystal in charge."

Also, President Obama just said in his speech that 2011 would only be the start of the pull-out BUT he said it is conditional upon the situation on the ground there. So it sounds like the real date is still up in the air.

I wish we would just get out too.

[tekisui]

72. A missed opportunity. A failure to lead. Endless war. Fuck!

[VMI Dem]

76. What did you expect? This is Obama's War.

[whatchamacallit]

79. There's only been one "mission" from the start

Plant our flag and take the shit we need. Anyone who says we're fighting these wars to "end terror" is a liar or rube. And I guess that applies to the president too.

[gateley]

83. Take what shit? That's what's always befuddled me - they're not sitting on oil

and it's just recently that the mineral bonanza was acknowledged (we'd done nothing to mine it if we knew of its existence). So usually I'm in total agreement with your statement, but this one has always puzzled me.

[PacerLJ35]

94. We've been there for 8 years and haven't taken anything yet...

So when's this "taking stuff" action going to happen?

As one friend of mine pointed out, the focus of this war is how to fight for 9 years and then get out, not fight and win. There are quantifiable goals we can accomplish there, but unfortunately that takes a lot of time, patience and money. I personally hope the Afghans benefit somehow in the long run, because out of all the places I've been to in the world, that place just shocks me at how behind it is and how truly poor those people are. They are lucky to make it to 40.

[whatchamacallit]

100. Well you can start here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

Google the rest

[Sebastian Doyle]

87. There is no "mission" in Afghanistan.

There is no "mission" in Iraq. Nor was there one in Vietnam or Korea.

The purpose of the United States Military is to defend the United States of America. The military has been used for anything BUT that in every "war" since August 1945. Also, since war must be declared by Congress, according to the Constitution, that further prevents the validity of any so-called "mission" in any of these fucked up occupations.

Enough of this bullshit. Bring the troops home now. All of them. And never pull this shit again.

[timtom]

90. That got me, too. And he invoked the dreaded name,

Al Qaeda!

Horrors!In Afghanistan. Who knew? Probably in Iraq, too.

[Bluebear]

98. Al Qaeda is franchising like Chik-Fil-A to inspire more and more warmongering!

Funny, though, they always branch out to oil or mineral-rich nations...

[KamaAina]

103. Petraeus: All of the counterinsurgency tripe, with none of the backtalk.

:eyes:

[DCBob]

107. He's just fulfilling a campaign promise.

No need to cry.