Study: PCs hurt students' grades

[Ed Barrow]

Source: Raleigh News & Observer

You may want to stop and reconsider whether you think a home computer will help your child with reading and math.

A new Duke University study says North Carolina middle school students' test scores dropped after they got home computers, suggesting they spent more time playing "The Sims" than working practice math problems.

The study by Jacob Vigdor and Helen Ladd at Duke's Sanford School of Public Policy challenges the accepted wisdom that children who don't have computers at home are at a disadvantage compared with their wired classmates.

"Our sense is that kids in middle school are using them more for socializing," Ladd said. "We don't want to send the impression that there are major declines in math or reading scores. (But) We are very confident the effects are not positive."


Read more: http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/06/19/540968/study-pcs-hurt-middler-grades.html

[tranche]

1. A "computer" is not just a number cruncher and research tool.

It can be used for socializing both online and by phone (skype), watching and creating video, and is generally is a magnificent tool for wasting time.

Not surprising that dumping a computer in a kids lamp and ushering them away would lead to there conclusion.

[msongs]

2. ummm parental supervision, anyone? nt

[JackRiddler]

17. Before we go on, are you a parent?

[redqueen]

58. I am...

and I think that parental involvement / supervision makes all the difference.

[Warpy]

3. Kids that age are pretty flaky

and, while I'd like them to have enough computer literacy to be able to do research in the school library, I really do hate to see them relying on computers and calculators for math, writing, or anything else.

When they start doing term papers in high school and gnarly math in chemistry and physics, they can introduce the calculator and computer.

Kids are always going to slack off. Gifting them with unlimited computer time just facilitates that. Parents need to recognize that to younger kids, especially, it's a toy.

[awoke_in_2003]

10. even simple addition and subtraction...

can't be done by a lot of teens, thanks to the cash register. I got $9.86 of food at taco bell, and gave the cashier $10.11. She looked at me like I had a third eye and said i gave her too much. I said "just punch the numbers in your register and give me my quarter, please". This is just one example of things I see all the time when dealing with cashiers. When I worked retail management, cashiers had to be able to count back change and also had to figure the change in their heads before punching in the amount given.

[MineralMan]

14. That's too much food from Taco Bell. You'll get a tummy ache.

Well, I suppose it might not all have been for you. Never mind. That advice will cost you two bits, thanks.

At the garage sale, run by a couple in their sixties:

Shopper: How much for this record album?
Seller: Six bits.
Shopper: Huh?

[PSPS]

4. HAHA! Sure, that's what they're doing. "Playing The Sims." Yeah.

I'm frequently asked what the best snooping software is to put on the kid's computer to keep them away from the pr0n. I say the best solution isn't snooping software but, instead, just keep the computer in the living room.

[JackRiddler]

18. Correct.

Despite their abundance there seem to never be enough slang terms for it, I guess.

And the living room would be it.

[pleah]

5. Figures. This from a red state. n/t

[DURHAM D]

7. you think the results would be different in a blue state...?

[pleah]

8. Could be. If it wasn't for the internet

my son would have had a much harder time learning anything in high school. I'd rather the ones that fuck off all day in school and make it harder for others to learn to, at least, have a computer or access to a computer. They may accidentally learn something.
You will always have those that don't want to learn or just don't care.

[DURHAM D]

9. I'm pleased for your son but -

your story doesn't support a blue state vs red state comment.

Aren't you in a red state anyway?

[pleah]

13. Unfortunately, yes. And, I don't see why I should have to support an

opinion. :/

[Bert]

24. You dont have to

Many people dont support their opinions. But I generally have more respect for people who do. Even if it's opinions that disagree with my own especially when they support their opinions with some form of overiding philosophy, especially one based on facts rather than say religious dogma. This is why I can have a philosophy that there should be free speech for bigots, because everyone should have free speech, especially those whose speech is unpopular, otherwise it would be an empty freedom if it was only free speech for those who tend to agree with the general consensus.

Similarly, I have more respect for libertarians who want to get rid of the department of education because they are at least consistent, and by being consistent they are more for civil liberties. I have less respect for the majority of republicans and tea baggers who are for big governemnt when it suits them and against it when it doesent for basically arbitrary reasons. Meaning they are not against big governemnt, but try to use it as a talking point. So for instance they have no problem with our millitary or police and prisons being so huge, but they then have a problem with say welfar or unemployment when the actual costs are far smaller than that of maintaining our empire and police state. And an opinion that is not supported by any sort of rational analysis seems totally worthless to me.

[Tempest]

21. His story doesn't, but there is a correlation

See my post #19.

[Tempest]

19. I think they would

Look at high school test scores, graduation rates and the number of students who go on to college. They are much higher in blue states than red states.

Computers are common in households with children everywhere in the country. If test scores and graduation rates are higher in blue states, it would be safe to say those kids are spending more time using the computer as a tool than a toy.

[pleah]

25. Education just doesn't seem to be a high priority down here.

At least for about 50% of the population anyway. :(

[totodeinhere]

28. Were did you get that stastistic? It's just not true.

Look at this.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-08-28-sat-table_N.htm

Lots of red states beat out blue states and red state California is one of the worst.

[keopeli]

29. I'm unsure how you are reading the statistics you quoted, but they don't defend your point.

In the top quartile (13 states), all but 2 are "blue states" (Virginia and Georgia) while in the bottom quartile all but 2 are "red states" (Iowa and Wisconsin).

What's more, I don't understand how you can refer to California as a red state. While they do have a Republican governor, their legislature is overwhelmingly Democratic and the Congressional delegation is heavily Democratic. They also consistently vote in favor of a Democratic candidate for President.

[totodeinhere]

36. Sorry that was a typo.

Of course California is a blue state.

[Tempest]

48. Virginia is considered a purple state

They have a lot of conservative voters, but they don't always vote Republicans in office. For example, Obama won the state, Warner won the Senate seat and more than half of their Representatives are Democrats. They also haven't passed any extreme conservative ballot measures in recent years.

[Tempest]

51. Three points

1) First, you misread the rankings as keopeli pointed out.

2) California has the largest population of immigrants whose first language isn't English. Immigrant students have a tough time learning in that environment.

3) If you look at the lowest performing counties in California, you'll find that they are mostly conservative counties. I live in Kern County, one the most conservative counties in California and its students are ranked almost dead last in the state. Its because of a large population of immigrant students who don't know English as a first language and because the conservative county government doesn't spend much on education.

[LostinVA]

32. Blue State, as of November

[Alcibiades]

57. North Carolina is purple

A Democrat and a Republican in the Senate, went narrowly for Obama in '08, 8 out of 13 House members are Democrats, Democrats control both houses of the General Assembly. Once we get rid of Burr, we have a solid claim to being a blue state.

Also, this study was done at Duke, I assume using subjects in Durham. Durham is the most Democratic of North Carolina's largest cities.

[Posteritatis]

6. Corollary: Parents hurt students' grades. (nt)

[stray cat]

11. If a student doesn't study and do homework - its not the computers fault

[JackRiddler]

20. The study looks at before and after in the same group.

No, it's not the computer's "fault" but it's real. This piece is in my view a correct warning about how computers are being used. They way they're being used is doing more harm than good to education.

[ShamelessHussy]

12. Probably needs a game console (Xbox/PS3)

I made sure all my kids had a computer from 5yo

And they got a wii and ps3... and they get high honors, so maybe that's it?

All kidding aside, my kids are incredible and I am so lucky to have, know, and love them.

[mbperrin]

15. As a teacher for 3 decades, I'll tell you what hurts students' grades the most:

teachers grading their work. It's true; if we'd just assign them 100s, they'd all do great!

Yes, the PC can be abused: so can cars, lawnmowers, kitchen knives, bleach, and pretzels. Real training and supervision will lead to better results.

For example, my entire course with all assignments is on a calendar that can be accessed any time students are out, whether for illness, activities, or whatever. Staying current with work can only benefit students, cannot hurt them.

Of course, there are always those who are sure that textbooks and air conditioning just make kids soft, too.

[keroro gunsou]

16. then maybe parents

need to do their fucking job and stop the little brats from playing the sims all the damn time.

[starroute]

22. Note that it says "after they got home computers"

I would expect that a kid's test scores would drop after they got any flashy new toy -- even back in the day when that might have been a bicycle or a set of electric trains.

I understand that it would be more difficult to compare students who have grown up with a computer in the house to those who have not -- if only because the first group are likely to have parents who are wealthier, better educated, and more involved with their children's upbringing.

And perhaps the newspaper story mangled the actual terms of the study. But if all they did is examine the immediate impact of getting a computer, the conclusions are almost worthless.

[Bert]

23. What are you going to do?

I admit my computer is probably used more to play games and surf the internet and help me play songs for my guitar than for actually studying. However this is due to my own lack of motivation. And I dont see what you can do. For children the obvious thing to do is to ration computers. For adults(including those 18) you can only blame it on the student. I am amzaed at the amount that kids these days interact on computers. Not to mention cell phones and texting. Definitely an example of technology causing a paradigm shift in people's behaviours, but not much we can do about it. Maybe modify cars so you cant text and drive although that would seem drastic. Or at least start recording when people are texting when they drive for accident investigation, although I guess it would only work when you do a send. People who text and drive are worse than drunk drivers in my opinion. Sorry to go off topic.

[JDPriestly]

26. I don't know whether it is different for people in the younger generation,

but I notice that I remember things I read on a printed page better than I remember the things I read on the computer. Strange, but I have noticed that. I think I use different eye movements for the two tasks. Somehow, my eyes pick up not only the line I am on, but fragments of the rest of the page when I read a book. It's subtle, but I notice that when I read on the computer, I mostly just see the words that I am reading.

I think that when my eyes pick up things from a page beyond the specific line I am reading, on some sort of subconscious level, I review or read a second time key parts of the text. That imprints the text more strongly on my mind. I don't know if that is how it works. There is a difference for me -- may be just a personal thing.

[boppers]

34. Psst: Typography.

The professionals who have been working on printed materials for decades use fonts designed for reading, at font sizes that are appropriate for reading. Website design is done for entirely different reasons, for the most part, and tends to use sans-serif fonts, which are less appropriate for reading large amounts of material.

[heliarc]

41. Very interesting.

I had never heard that... Where did you learn that sans-serif fonts are less appropriate for reading large amounts of material? It seems counter-intuitive to me since the simpler graphic on a sans serif font might mean that reading is more efficient... unless of course that the more ornate lettering is more easily recognizable. I'd love to look at your source for this point... any links? (Or Books? haha)

[boppers]

42. Have a rather thorough overview of the arguments (with many references):

http://www.alexpoole.info/academic/literaturereview.html

My opinion is different than his, (he declares it a wash), but typography geeks have been having this discussion for a very long time. I prefer monospace, serif, for most of my writing work (I write software for a living), because of the "word wholes" theories.

[heliarc]

44. Excellent...

Thanks for the sources.

[JerseygirlCT]

60. What I've been taught

is that serif fonts help the eye "catch" onto the letters and words, improving comprehension and ease of reading.

I know in direct mail, a serif font is almost always recommended (despite what graphic designers may like as a "look").

[JDPriestly]

49. You are absolutely right, boppers.

It's easier to distinguish the letter when reading the fonts used in books. I spend less of my attention trying to decipher the words. I often mix words up when I read or type on the internet. (My vision is very poor.)

[totodeinhere]

27. Why don't the parents make their kids use their computers for homework and turn off the games?

My parents made sure I did my homework and now I'm glad they did.

[customerserviceguy]

30. This seemed a bit strange to me

because I had to wonder which kids had just gotten home computers. They've been fairly prominent in homes for quite some time now.

Then, I read the link, and found that they stopped this study in 2005, just before the major social networking sites took off. I now wonder why this researcher took five years to release his results. Was this the only thing that leapt out at him after that long?

[knitter4democracy]

46. Most education research has serious lag time.

Part of it is who's writing it (full-time educators, usually, so time is difficult to come by), part of it is the time needed to crunch the numbers, and part of it is access to the data.

[4saken]

31. You're talking about a school system...

...where most of the children have gotten accustomed to being threatened into learning. Which has its up and down sides. One of the down sides is that given the choice to play a game or learn something, they will find learning to be a chore meant to be forced at school, and pick the game. It all depends on the individual and what mentality they have when it comes to learning. And whether they are in a position where learning something can be enjoyable for them. If you hand a computer to a child who is genuinely excited about learning something they have come to on their own, I believe this would show different results.

[mike_c]

33. this is entirely consistent with my own experience with university students, too...

...which might seem counter intuitive, because access to computers is essential for most university course work.

But how students use their computers is under their control, and I find that relatively few know how to use them productively or creatively for academic/professional purposes, or at least few know how to use them well. On the other hand, I've had classroom monitors tell me that MOST of those laptops whose backs I see from the lectern are actually displaying anything BUT relevant academic material during class-- Facebook, music, email and the web, YouTube, and pic viewers dominate.

Its a real problem. I don't have any solutions, but the root of the problem seems to be the old familiar one-- students who are not engaged or interested in school or learning.

[knitter4democracy]

47. This is my experience as a high school teacher, too.

Whenever I'd walk around, I'd see anything but note-taking up on the screens. I got in the habit of saying, "Laptops down," in my class, as they took better notes if they handwrote them.

[mwb970]

56. I would not like to be a teacher these days.

So many kids are disconnected from anything academic, preferring to wallow in Facebook trivia for hours and hours each day. They apparently continue this right in class, a grievous insult to the teacher, who in most cases can't do much about it.

Teaching should be a noble profession. But without students who are interested in learning, a teacher is just talking to himself/herself rather than actually teaching. What is accomplished?

This is just one more way in which our vaunted "high tech" world lets its citizens down.

[Dappleganger]

35. It's not the computers, it's not the games, it's not Facebook.

It's parents not doing their job and giving reasonable expectations, a plan to get it done and follow through with consequences/praise as needed.

[Odin2005]

37. Hysterical bullshit.

probably from the same idiots that "proved" that video games cause school shootings. :eyes:

[surrealAmerican]

38. They only looked at the middle-schoolers' reading and math scores.

Those may be the two subjects least likely to be helped by a computer at home, at least in that age group. I wonder if they would have found a more positive influence on grades in history, the sciences, or foreign languages.

[lunatica]

39. I used to only do math when I had homework

And I don't believe that computers hinder reading skills, although they may not help much with writing skills. Teachers need to create homework again.

[miyazaki]

40. Silicon Snake Oil. Great book. n/t

[boppers]

43. Silicon Snake Oil?

The book where the author declared that the internet is bad for commerce?

Seriously, have a direct quote from the book: "The Internet is a poor place for commerce."

The guy who complained in his book that his computer didn't make noises like his TYPEWRITER?

The guy who complains about the speed and utility of usenet, gopherspace, and how hard it is to find anything of use on them? (If you haven't heard of this things, there's a reason: NOBODY REALLY USES THEM ANYMORE).

He was writing as a luddite (even for his times), lost in romantic notions about what it mean to be an author, a publisher, and a participant in media and a global network... but to be fair, the book was an interesting read in 1995 (15 years ago), and does reflect some of the skepticism of the day, after all, it was still hard to find web pages. Not specific web pages, web pages *in general*.

[greymattermom]

45. medical school too

Our whole medical curriculum is podcast. In the classroom, students are required to have their tablet PCs. If you stand in the back of the room, there's a lot of email, facebook etc on the screens.

[wordpix]

53. aaacckkk---not looking forward to old age when those doctors are "helping" me

[blogslut]

50. Kids would rather goof off than study????

I'm shocked, I tell you. SHOCKED!

[wordpix]

52. I've worked with kids who don't do well in school for 20 years---we need a radical overhaul

There is no simple solution like throw the computer away, give them a computer or anything else. I have wealthy students with all the privileges and some with nothing who are homeless, all doing equally badly academically unless/until something/someone major happens to spark their interest and get them excited about learning. But really, why do we make high school students take Algebra II and geometry when most don't need it as adults? Why do we make kids write 10-pg. term papers when most adults don't need to do this in their adult jobs? Why must they know every cell part and every phase of meiosis? And so on. It would be far better to ensure high school graduates can write a two-page report using proper grammar and vocabulary, do basic research, and do the math they'll need to get a loan and balance a checkbook. Beyond that, let them pick and choose the subjects they're interested in like carpentry, house building, gardening, stone masonry, culinary arts, dance, music, fashion design, wind turbine design, art and architecture, scientific research on a real subject they can touch, hear and see ... We might then find students will then want to come to school and excel while there.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

54. It's Political Correctness gone mad, I tell you! Oh, wait...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. It's Political Correctness gone mad, I tell you! Oh, wait...

[seabeyond]

59. that is why there is a parent around to tell kids... get off the damn computer and do homework,

read a book, run around a yard.