I don't get it... An old high school friend was a welfare recipient in his childhood

[GoddessOfGuinness]

The guy worked hard to get himself through college, grad school, and a doctoral degree, and is now a minister of an evangelical church...guess where this is leading. He's quite successful, living in a relatively affluent suburb, with one kid in college and another approaching. His wife is a lawyer.

He argues with me that sometimes he and his wife wonder whether all the effort was worthwhile, because they are now "part of the group that pays a large percentage of the taxes in this country."
I don't know how much they earn, so I'm not sure whether this is a misperception on his part or the truth. But it's not really important...His tax bracket doesn't hinder his ability to live in a nice home, take vacations, put his kids through college with the help of loans, etc.

I don't understand how someone who clearly considers himself to be a modern-day disciple of Jesus, who benefitted from public assistance and became successful, can grouse about the system. It's pretty obvious that, while my friend remembers receiving welfare, he has forgotten where he came from...or maybe he was too young to fully appreciate how his mother struggled to raise him.

Sad...

Thanks for letting me vent...

[xchrom]

1. Well first of all I can't tell from the 'truth'

In what they're saying --

Secondly lots of folk like myself DONT have
issues with their taxes per ce --
what I have issues with are what those taxes are
spent on-- hello Pentagon?!?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

8. I could have done without 80 million spent on witch hunting the Clintons

...especially the impeachment bullshit.

[napi21]

2. Spmething else yu may remind him to think about. It's this system that he's griping

about that also gives HIM a lot of tax breaks BECAUSE he's a minister! I don't know them all, but I know they don't have to pay taxes on their residence through an exemption.
Quite a few $$ if I remember right. There are many more bennies gven to ministers so I really doubt he's paying a large % in taxes!

I always question how people like that can constantly preach love, understanding, and care fpr the less advantaged of us then in their own lives...bitch about it.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

9. I didn't know that...

Maybe I'll become a minister.

[napi21]

15. Here. Check it out. It's a pretty nice deal.

http://www.clergytaxnet.com/Clergy%20Tax%20Facts/CTF_housing.htm

[NYC_SKP]

3. I suppose...

...humble beginnings don't always lead to a compassionate view, or a liberal or progressive view of taxation matters or what it means to be a "Good Christian" (in his specific case).

From personal experience of people I've met, the more they make the more they want to keep.

And, this is consistent with the fact that they make a lot- usually at some point in life they decided that money mattered that much to them, often more than what some of us think really matters.

:shrug:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

11. He says assistance has "destroyed families and led to the feminization of poverty".

Sounds like a BS phrase to excuse his desire for more and more accumulated wealth.

[NYC_SKP]

19. Wow.

"feminization of poverty"- that term is wrong on three levels at once, it took work just to put those words together.

I think you nailed it.

I always feel bad about the children people like this have, the goals in life and the experiences they might miss.

x(

[Maru Kitteh]

4. Greed, in the people you love and care about, is very sad.

I don't know what to say other than as long as your friend still lives and breathes there is a chance he may yet come around.

Peace to you and yours.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

13. Thanks Maru...

I suggested to him that his story was testament to the fact that public assistance can work, and encouraged him to write about it with the hope of inspiring others who struggle financially.

I hope he'll consider it...

[blogslut]

5. Quote Jesus to him

From Matthew 22:21

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

[GoddessOfGuinness]

14. A classic...

:thumbsup:

[MrsMatt]

29. Another Jesusism

..I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:23-24

[eShirl]

36. or to complete the analogy, don't forget to first ask him whose image that is on the dollar bill

(render unto Washington, etc...)

[Vickers]

6. Pretty much every hardcore gung-ho holier-than-thou repuke I've ever encountered has

a. been on public assistance of some sort

b. had an abortion (or been a party thereof)

c. avoided paying taxes in some way

d. never spoken a 2nd language

e. never been out of the country

f. never served in the military

They are the party of what-the-fuckedness.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

17. Do you think it's guilt?

Maybe they feel ashamed and don't wish to admit it.

[rucky]

30. Guilt overcompensated by pride.

Everybody who rises above poverty wants to live the bootstrap myth, even when the helping hand provided came from us. Maybe not everybody, but too many.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

61. Good point...

It's hard to be humble.

[RagAss]

7. Sounds like a shallow, greedy chap to me.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

22. I can appreciate the fact that he and his wife worked hard

to have the things they have.

But surely their success has hinged on the efforts of others who also work hard...
like the guys who pick up their garbage and recycling
...their daycare providers
...the people who scrub their floors at their places of employment
...the folks who stock the shelves at their grocery
...the people who work in the restaurants where they go when they're too tired to fix anything for dinner.

If these people were paid a respectable wage for their hard work, there would be less need for assistance programs.

[Hawkowl]

10. Tell him we want OUR money back!

Seriously. If we charged what a credit card company charged, he'd still be paying.

I received many "welfare" subsidies growing up including food stamps, Pell Grants, free school lunches, etc. I am HAPPY to pay my taxes. The only thing that pisses me off is giving them to the 'defense' department.

His ingratitude is infuriating. I look at young people now, and know that I could not succeed if I were in their shoes now. There was a very strong social safety net that encouraged people to work their way up to a reasonably good life. There is no such help anymore. We are squandering so much human talent while subsidizing the destruction of our society and planet it is literally insane.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

24. Could you explain the strong social safety net?

Are you talking about counseling within the public assistance programs?

Sorry if it seems like a dumb question...

[Hawkowl]

25. No such thing

Social safety net such as unemployment benefits, AFDC (cash payments program for Aid Families to Dependent Children), Job training grants, rent subsidies, Food stamps, mental health aid, veterans programs etc. Aka: welfare. Most of these programs have been eliminated, or are simply shadows of what they used to be.

It is referred to as a "net" in the old fashioned trapeze sense, since it "caught" you when you fell, and literally could save your life.

Prior to Reagan, the USA didn't see mentally ill people roaming the streets and poor homeless vets begging for change on every. single. damned street corner.

As a society we took care of our own. Reagan ushered in the "me" mentality that will destroy this nation if we can't restore our social contract with each other.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

46. I see what you mean...

Thanks for clarifying. My mom is a retired social worker. She had plenty to say about Raygun's cuts to mental health services. Not only did it send mentally ill people out into the streets; it sent us back into another "dark age" in terms of popular attitudes toward mental illness and various forms of therapy. Once again, seeking help for oneself creates a stigma.

[William Z. Foster]

12. the pattern

The system victimizes us all. Those who retain any compassion and humanity - any true Christianity, ironically in this case - suffer materially. Those who are materially successful suffer in another way - they lose their hearts and their souls. That is what the gods of success in our culture demand.

Everything is being turned inside out and upside down as our culture spirals down in a final death dive. Here we have a minister of God preaching the most un-Christian and ungodly doctrines imaginable. He has made his money off of religion. Can there be any lower level of moral depravity to which a person can sink?

[JI7]

16. some people are just selfish hypocrites

the "was it all worth it" line shows he views himself as a victim .

remember joe the plumber ? the fake palin supporting asshole ? he was on welfare also but attacked others on it .

[HughMoran]

18. "I got mine"

"It's all about me"

Gotta love Jesus.

:eyes:

[Withywindle]

20. And if he hadn't gotten government assistance in his childhood

it's possible that his developing brain would have been so stumped in its growth by malnutrition that he could NEVER have been smart enough to fake his way through divinity school. Which he obviously did, or at least never paid any significant attention to the teachings of Jesus whatsoever.

And I'm not a Christian myself, but I'd think if you were going to call yourself one and make a living off that, then maybe those teachings might be important.

[Mz Pip]

21. I'm sure there are several people out there

who would be more than happy to trade their low tax bracket income for the likes of his. For all of his talk I doubt he would really take anyone up on the offer.

It's just so damn easy to complain about being in a high tax bracket. I really don't hear of too mamy people enthusiatic about the fact that they are too poor to be paying taxes at all. :eyes:

[Bette Noir]

57. There were a lot of years when I didn't have to pay any income taxes.

Now, I'm happy to have an income to pay taxes on.

[Q3JR4]

23. Seems to me that your evangelical friend has a dirth of

that "compassion" think some of them like to speak so highly about.

There were times when my parents would not have been able to feed us if it wasn't for government help when I was growing up.

Someday I will have a good job somewhere and won't have a problem with helping my fellow man.

Q3JR4
_{Avowed atheist.}

[Better Today]

26. Makes perfect sense. Think about ex-smokers...very common to become

aggressively and righteously (wrongly so, but they believe they are righteous) antagonist to those who are where you were. Sort of "if I can do it, everyone should," crap. What they fail to realize is that not everyone is as able as they, I mean this sincerely. Instead of feeling the kindness and compassion, they exude something akin to contempt.

[truedelphi]

27. Let's say someone makes $ 200K a year.

If they have to pay Uncle Sam at the 18% tax rate, (considering they have mortgage deductions, business deductions, etc.) this means that they pay $ 21,600. If they don't pay quarterly, this seems like a whooping amount to them come April 15th.

Meanwhile the schmuck who makes $ 40K a year might be paying a whooping $ 6 K a year. It may be taken out of their paycheck, so it somehow doesn't hit them as that much. However it is almost impossible to survive on $ 40K if you have a kid or a spouse who is not working full time $ 40 K. All the money in that household goes for rent, food, TAXES, car insurance, utility bills, and things like buying new shoes occasionally. there is no disposable income.

But people who are affluent rarely realize how good they have it.

I have friends who own two houses in a well established neighborhood, rent one out, and although each house is worth more than a million, they pay $ 6K in property taxes. Oh, the whining and the moaning and the groaning each year. But people in states other than California would pay $ 6 K just on two $ 400K houses.

[eilen]

28. Former slaves make the cruelest slave masters. nt.

[Gin]

31. I think this is why some people switch from being Dem to Rethug..

once they start earning more money....they want to keep more of it...and become rethuglicans....and vote for fewer taxes and public programs.....it's all about money! (IMO)

[Bluenorthwest]

32. According to the Scriptures of his alleged faith

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Matthew 6:24

It is amazing that he could be confused about this, as it is so starkly clear to anyone who can read. Advanced degree you say? Claims Jesus, you say? Then what about those words? What about them? What about the least among us?
His pretense of having a faith is just that, an affectation, a way to serve his chosen master, money.

[PassingFair]

33. The word of "Matthew" is the only thing I like about Christianity.

Is it possible to just be a Matthewist?

[Ikonoklast]

34. And Jesus said to the young man, "Sell all that you have and come follow me."

And the young man turned away, weeping, as he was wealthy and had many things.



So lemme get this straight, a grifter working the Jesus Con is bitching about paying taxes, after the rest of us supported him in his youth.


Seems like he's staying true to his grifting nature.

[undeterred]

35. Money changes people.

Apparently you can never have enough.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

53. It seems that way with many people...

Still, others don't seem to have a problem parting with it once they're comfortable.

I remember reading not too long ago about an old man who lived very modestly, and left this world with a substantial fortune in the bank, which he left to charity.

[chillspike]

37. I read that Sting lived on the dole

for most of the time before he became famous...I could be wrong, though.

But he doesn't complain about welfare as far as I know.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

56. He's a philanthropist, and active in trying to eliminate world hunger.

Wikipedia's article about him describes a very modest childhood... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting_(musician)

It's pretty clear he remembers where he came from.

[old mark]

38. rec. I'm sorry to hear that, but he is not alone....my brother was a crazy drunk after Army service,

met a good girl from a working class family (from the South, too) Went to college at her suggestion, got a job in Underwriting in the big insurance companies-she got a MBA, sent jobs overseas...He is now VERY RELIGIOUS, a big shot lay clergy member of his denomination.
They both LOVED Newt Gingrich and W...hate Obama and all things Democratic.
There are 4 of us kids - 2 Democratis or farther left, 2 GOPers.
It is something I can't understand at all...


mark

[BR_Parkway]

39. Render unto Caesar is one of those inconvienent verses, therefore

it's allowed to be ignored - just like that whole thing Jesus said about divorced people being adulterers - that would cut into the finances of the church too much to have them preaching about that like they do the GLBT community

[SocialistLez]

40. "I got mine...."

I guess he's not part of a faith community that thinks we should help the poor in their time of need?

[NNN0LHI]

41. This persons God is obviously a few pieces of gold

Very common occurrence.

Don

[Froward69]

42. "minister of an evangelical church"

doesn't pay taxes.

he is just basically selfish.

[Bluerthanblue]

43. "do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth"....

sounds to me like his faith is in the wrong place for a person who claims to follow Christ.

"for where your treasure is, there your heart will also be".

The love of money is the root of all evil.

Jesus didn't encourage hoarding- what did he tell the 'rich young ruler' who supposedly was doing everything right (religiously)? He told him to give away all his earthly possessions to the poor, and to then follow him. What kind of a "christ"ian defends their own greed? or complains about helping others less fortunate?

It isn't how we 'identify' ourselves that he will be known. It is how we live and walk.

I hope your friend learns this.

:grouphug:

[Hamlette]

44. I had a similar experience recently

I was the contact person for a rule change at my agency. Many of the ppl who called were either on some type of assistance, had been, or had been denied or had a family member denied but by god, they did not want to extend benefits to the children in question under the rule.

I wonder if ppl who have never needed it are not as passionate about "my tax dollars going to welfare cheats". I frankly don't get it. Must be a "What's the Matter With Kansas" question. Any ideas?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

59. When I was growing up, my parents taught us that welfare,

while sometimes necessary, was something to be ashamed of requiring.

I wonder if it's their own feelings of shame that make them so critical. I've seen the same vehament opposition to abortion from a number of people who had at least one in their history, then jumped on the evangelical bandwagon.

[Hamlette]

60. I don't think it was shame as they were so quick to admit it

that they were on disability or their daughter was on medicaid or whatever.

The issue was illegal aliens "getting" benefits (they don't but their citizen children do) and many of them complained that they were just getting by on their assistance and we shouldn't be giving it to illegals (we don't, how many times have I said THAT in the last week!)

Historically, the last group of immigrants to arrive in the US were the hardest on the next group to arrive. Irish, Italians, Polish. They all kicked the next group to arrive in the teeth.

Maybe its a survival thing. "I'm on the bottom rung of the ladder, or one rung up, and I clawed like hell to get here, and these people are just going to come and take it away from me." That's what the whole Southern Strategy was about. Convince the good old boys that the black were going to take their shacks away from them.

My other theory is some people are grateful for what they have. I know I didn't get to where I am (comfortable, not rich) by myself. I was born white in the richest country in the world to middle class parents who helped me get a college degree.

Then there are some people who think they deserve it. Sarah Palin prolly thinks that she is where she is today because she's so awesome and it has nothing to do with her looks and McCain.

Sometimes I think that's the difference between republicans and democrats. Democrats have been taught to be thankful and that because we had help or were lucky we are required to pass it along. Republicans are taught they are better than the rest of us and therefore deserve to have been born white in the richest country in the world.

Whatever it is, 100 calls from angry, Glenn Beck watching, mean spirited jerks last week was just awful. As bad as our fights get here, its nothing like these selfish, greedy, uncaring jerks.

[area51]

45. Reminds me of that dumbfuck actor, Craig T. Nelson,

he got welfare in the past, now he rants against it. Hypocrite.

[uponit7771]

47. well

[butterfly77]

48. Is his name Clarence Thomas?

[Ruby the Liberal]

49. Money changes people

They don't think it does, but if you had recorded this conversation and played it back to him (forgetting his profession of choice), I would think (hope) that he recoils in horror.

- Never forget your roots

- There, but by the grace of God go I

- It is easier for a poor man to pass through the eye of the needle than a rich man enter heaven

- The love of money is the root of all evil

- What you do to these least of you, you do to me

...I could go on all night.

Would I be correct in assuming that he is in the group that would like to dismantle all tax-based social programs so that "charities and the church" can step into those roles?

Sad stuff, my friend. I hope he finds his conscience sooner than later.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

52. You've assumed correctly

He complained that "non-prof" budgets have been slashed. I'm sure he doesn't view that as a result of Bushco.

I'm also sure that while his church is highly active with regard to helping homeless people find shelter from the cold, they also feel it's imperative to "save souls". I don't knock any religious group that does what's necessary to keep needy people fed and clothed; but I consider it offensive to push any kind of religion on them.

[tiredtoo]

50. Tell Him

to give it all up and go back on welfare. He won't have to pay taxes to help BP pay their bills.

[Bryn]

51. Too many churches keep on popping up even in a small city

If one wants to be truly spiritual and follow Jesus' teachings we would not need so many churches, but we keep getting too many churches. It's because it's a good business and easy to get money, not have to pay taxes.

When I was growing up we had one or two churches in town and people in community used to help each other and others in need. It's not the same anymore. Now I live in a small town I am always amazed at so many churches all over ... not needed!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

62. Trouble is, almost every church (and I do emphasize almost)

is dominated by people who are certain they are right and everybody else is wrong. If we really wanted to be spiritual, would we require religion at all?

[Dappleganger]

54. Lemme guess, he's probably white?

Once they move on the other side of the tracks with the white folk they often forget where they came from.

[Javaman]

55. Greed, my friend Greed.

perhaps, your friend should brush up on the 7 deadly sins.

[jfkraus]

58. Avarice

...the excessive or insatiable desire for wealth or gain...is a cardinal sin. Maybe he should be reminded of that.