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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:07 PM
Original message
The Troubles
“Everything is the exact opposite of what it really is.” --Harry Nilsson

Older D.U.ers – those who have been here for at least a couple of months -- will recognize that I've used the above quote previously. Those who have been here for either longer or shorter periods will realize that it is an apt description of some of the curious dynamics on this forum.

(A word of warning: I did have surgery this morning, and as so many experience these days, was released “sicker & quicker.” Be warned that, in this case, “quicker” does NOT refer to my ability to think clearly. The medical staff warned me that tomorrow would be hell, and I am getting a preview tonight. So, if this comes out confused and cranky, so be it. One last thing, before I get started: if Evander Holyfield steps into my house, I'm likely to bite his ear off. So be that, too.)

Because I'm not particularly mobile, my son Corey suggested that we all watch a “family movie” tonight. People asked me what I was in the mood to watch; I said anything that contained pain, violence, and tragic results. Corey said that since St. Patrick's Day is upcoming, that we'd watch “Michael Collins.” I strongly recommend this Liam Neeson docu-drama for anyone recovering from surgery around St. Patrick's Day.

Now, on a more serious note …...

Good people can have very different opinions about that period of “The Troubles.” Many people prefer Michael Collins to Eamon de Valera, for example, as a symbol of the Good Fight. And many others prefer de Valera. Now, that's fine. People can and should debate such concepts. What is wrong is when that debate leads to hate, for that hatred always leads to violence.

As the movie notes, the irony was that Mick Collins, when attempting to remove the gun from Irish politics, was killed. The forces behind his tragic death were those who actually were struggling for the same basic advances that Collins was advocating for. But those forces believed that their stance – hence, they – were more “pure” than Collins.

Another historic example, also depicted in a wonderful movie, involved Gandhi and Jinnah. By no coincidence, they were engaged in a struggle to remove the same empire from their lands, as were Collins and de Valera. At a time when advances were being made, there was an ugly split between two groups, one symbolized by each leader. Debate led to hate, and hatred unleashed violence. Nathuram Godse, a Hindu who believed his stance was more pure than Gandhi's, assassinated the Mahatma.

Yesterday, I spent a great deal of time reading through a large stack of insurance and medical documents. I also sent out a rather large sum of money, to a variety of medical providers. And I say this, knowing that I have about as good of medical coverage as the average person. In fact, I have much better coverage than two of my siblings, who are currently being overwhelmed by a combination of serious health concerns, and too few resources to have accessed the care that they needed.

I have my own opinions in regard to the health care reform efforts being promoted by democratic officials in Washington. I include both the White House, and both houses pf Congress. Yet, I do not believe that my personal beliefs are important enough to focus on in this humble message to people on this forum.

Rather, I want to focus on something that is really important – at least something that I am convinced is. And that is this: it is possible, in fact desirable, that people here have a wide variety of opinions and beliefs on what those elected officials are doing. We need to recognize that, even with those different beliefs, we are on the same side. We are not on some imaginary fence, where some will be safe, while others fall off and suffer. No, that is not the reality of the situation. Because we all have family, friends, and neighbors, who deserve adequate health care.

How do we get there? Do we follow a path of stepping stones? Or not? People can believe either of these positions, or something in between. Or something different. And still be a good democrat, and not an advocate of the empire created by insurance companies.

The Democratic Underground should be a place where there is respectful communication. That includes listening to those who hold different opinions than ourselves. Even if we are convinced that they are wrong. More, even when we believe that others are wrong, the exact second that any of us becomes convinced that this renders the other(s) “impure,” and that we enjoy an advantage that results from our own purity, we betray the very values that make this forum – and, indeed, the best of our Democratic Party: the grass roots – strong.

So be it.

Your friend,
H2O Man
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. Stay strong and ... 24 - 72 hours can and is hell
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 11:12 PM by nadinbrzezinski
you take care...

If you need an ear, feel free to PM. (Even if it is to byte on it, though I don't know if a nibble here and again will be advisable in your current condition)

As to opinions on the troubles let me add just one thing... this too shall pass. We've been through too much.

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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Speedy recovery to you. Thanks.
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well said....
and get well brother!!
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. Get well, H20. For the record, I am a Mick Collins sort. ;)
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. May your recovery be swift and as painless as is possible.
Find a good bullet to bite or chew nails, but you can and will get through it in one piece. Good luck Waterman.
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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. I've been here almost since the very beginning, saying little but reading everything
And I've always read you and hope I will for a long time to come.

Thank you for all that you do and have done and best wishes for a full recovery and I hope you are back to fighting strength quickly. :loveya:
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. What catzies said!
Same here - except I've been somewhat more of a loudmouth...

Mend quickly, dear H2O Man!

:hug: :yourock: :thumbsup: :fistbump: :patriot: :pals:
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. k&r....
a quick recovery mr waterman.



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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. Get well soon.
Thanks for a timely post. I'll try to live up to your standard of respectful communication. You set a great example.
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. No post is ever completely without merit ...
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 11:37 PM by eppur_se_muova
if nothing else, it can always serve as a bad example.

Get well soon, H2OMan.
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. A strong rec to the 'thinker' within our midst.... and an idea to consider
Glad to see you are posting here my friend.

Thought I would pass this tidbit along. I have been reading about the perceptions of 'passing time.' Those of us who have engaged in sports over a period of time have likely experienced elevated levels of performance when we were 'in the zone.' And it was during these episodes that time appeared to either 'slow down' or 'pass quickly' even as the rate of events remained constant.

I mention this because it has been noted that engaging in thoughtful actions or writing can divert our perceptions of the passage of time when we are feeling pain or discomfort. I don't have any links but I recall athletes who reported playing the remainder of a game with a broken arm or leg, which they did not discover until after the game was over --at which time the pain intensified.

I hope your intellectual exercises here can serve you in that manner, and while benefitting the rest of us, additionally they will help you cope with the pain of your recovery.

Always good to hear from you. BHJ
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. glad to hear from you.
may your recovery be fast.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. Truth is almost never as pure as we wish it was, but that is a knife that cuts both ways.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
13. It's good to see you typing again
I hope you heal quickly.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
14. Anyone who quotes Harry Nilsson gets a rec from me.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
15. Don't be a 'tough guy', take the pills and if it still hurts make your doc give you better pills.
We're going through this too (over and over), and that's the most common mistake people make, according to the nurses.


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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
16. k&r
:hi:
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R for a sane post amidst the chaos.
Hope you're feeling better soon, H20 Man. :hi:
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
18. Get well. Bite off all the ears you need to. Cranky is sexy.
Spring is coming...ice is melting...water is flowing.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
19. Take good care, H2O Man and H2O family.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 01:49 AM by EFerrari
:grouphug:
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
20. Strong Words Big Brother On DU
Love and healing Patrick.
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gademocrat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
22. Wishing you a speedy recovery.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
23. Thank you for your sensible post, H20 Man, and for
weighing in on what's really important.

I heard you went back in for surgery; I hope you heal well and fast, my friend. :hug:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
24. I'll try not to be Evander Holyfield.
Take care of yourself so that we can enjoy your rational discourse. It always gives me pause for thought (and I admit I don't think in a calm or rational manner these days). I do care though. I always try to think of those our current politics leaves behind no matter how poorly I express it on occasion.
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Mira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
25. Your voice of reason continues unabated.
There is a lot of good and calming news about your condition and the peripherals as well.
I'm so glad.

Thanks for conveying all of it.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
26.  usual sensible, smart words.
now try to apply that sensible and smart line of reasoning to your health, so we can keep you around. i don't know if you ended up back with the knife through hard headedness, but i just kinda got the feeling that you did.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
27. Just put the lime in the coconut
then you'll feel better. Mountains of goodness to you, dear one, and rivers of health. You are missed on the old DU, your presence is uplifting. And you write better post op than I do on a good day. Peace to you and the family.
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mgc1961 Donating Member (874 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
28. Good morning!
"The medical staff warned me that tomorrow would be hell, and I am getting a preview tonight. So, if this comes out confused and cranky, so be it."

I've recently been there. I broke my collarbone while training for a marathon. The surgical staff warned me to get a jump start on the morning-after pain with some prescription narcotics that make me really nauseous. After a little experimentation I found the right mix of teeth gritting and pill popping to make it through the day. I hope your recovery goes as well.

:hi:
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
29. May you have a speedy recovery, my friend.
:grouphug:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
30. Take care and thanks for the words of advice
We would do well to heed such advice.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
31. Firstly, I hope your resting and feeling better...
Reading the update your wonderful family and close-in friends express I was able to see. My husband is experiencing a similar situation so rest, feel better try to feel better and from time to time: submit :)

I think I hear the rest of you when you mention respectful communication. I know I seek it in my life having had so little of it growing up, and do find it there/here because that is, on balance, more face-to-face where unless we're Welsh prize fighters we tend to shy away for quieter, more respectful engagements leaving the arm flailing histrionics to the monster shouters which is not good policy so I agree - we cannot leave policy to monster shouters, the policy will become as fragmented and disrupted as per

Though in the time I've been here I have found some respectful communication from others, not a pendulous preponderance but some here & there - from yourself in a far more balanced and routine manner for which I thank you here; by & large, however, the likelihood with which DU is, at present and has been throughout; able to become a shooting gallery of disrespect remains high and disruptive

With so many trying to tear it down the task of trying to make it better has become a chore instead

"pain, violence, and tragic results"
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woofless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
32. Thanks for your words, man.
Every time. Heal.

Woof
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byronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
33. It is required that you survive and prosper.
And thanks for this post.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
34. Nice to see they kicked you out of the krankenhaus - that's A Good Thing, my friend.
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 12:22 PM by leveymg
Wife was home within 36 hours after hip replacement - a miracle, really.

Heal up, quick!

As for Eire in the Times - couldn't have had independence without the Poet and the Patriot, both!
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DesertDiamond Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
35. H2O Man!!! You ROCK!! This is SO well written and on point!
I wish you speedy recovery with as little pain as possible!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
36. Get well soon
friend. Thanks again for taking the time to post much needed words of wisdom. :hi:
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
37. First, if you will recall, I instructed you
to get well immediately, not just to get discharged immediately.

And second, I mentioned at the time that my reason for issuing that instruction was because we would miss you around here.

This post constitutes an excellent evidence of why you were missed.

Thank you, Patrick, welcome back, and please take good care of yourself.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
38. K + R
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GrannyK Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
39. The loving care of family and friends is usually the main benefit
of leaving the hospital quickly. However, another important benefit is less chance of infection. Hospitals can be dangerous places. I recently had spinal surgery and was released within 24 hours. Home care by my spouse and some wonderful out of town friends, from the peace movement, who took turns for the first several weeks, through all the 'bitchiness of post op pain is a testament to their love and caring.

I rarely post but read daily and from what I read here, you also have a loving family and friends to help you get well. Just add all of the DU family who hold you in high esteem and who are cheering for your speedy recovery. Your posts are my 'first click' whenever you decide to share your wisdom.

So GET WELL SOON! We all need that wisdom.

kay l
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
40. Get well soon. And I agree with your last paragraph. nm
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
41. Right On, H2O Man.......
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 02:33 PM by BlancheSplanchnik
I've been thinking a lot lately about ... well about many things, most unrelated to the sociology of DU :P , but....

Anyway, something I've been so bugged about I've even considered doing an OP is the lack of sportsmanship on DU. For example, responding to a post to disagree or debunk--if the poster takes the time to reply to you and actually courteously discuss your concerns, then simple respect would mean giving back the same attention.

We seem as a group, to want to prove our chops by deflating the competition -- proving that we're smarter than someone else. And disappearing if we are proven wrong or challenged in some way. But if we claim to stand for right action, then how can we not see that our behavior towards one another whether we are "correcting" or "being corrected"

Not that it's DU's fault, but it does strike me from time to time that if, as progressives, we consider ourselves representative of a "higher calling", then I would expect individuals to walk the talk.



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ColesCountyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
42. Get well soon!
I do so enjoy reading your posts-- even the ones I disagree with.

:hi:
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
43. Take care, H2O Man
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 03:37 PM by MissDeeds
You are a treasure and a valued member of the DU family. Best wishes for a speedy and pain free recovery!

:hug:
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
44. Be well... thank you always for your wise words...nt
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
45. get better soon, we need more critical attacks on 'purity'.
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daleanime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
46. Hear, hear....
:applause:
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mulsh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
47. A very good point. If you're in an Irish mood another film worth
watching, especially after seeing Micheal Collins is " "The War of the Button" it's set in Cork and is about war.

Here's wishing you a speedy recovery. I always look foreword to your posts.
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
48. thank you,
your words that "we are all on a fence" struck home. There's nothing more I can say
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
49. I guess that Democracy Experiment is still on
Funny, I never quite thought of it as being something personal for each American. Now I do. Thanks! And just remember that your pain will pass and you'll be much better than before.

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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
50. Not cranky at all.
Quite cogent and gentle. Thank you.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
51. Recover quickly and completely Water Guy.
Your thoughts fuel many interesting threads.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
52. Hugs and wellness wishes for you
:hug:
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
53. With all due respect the grass roots are have been rendered
sterile by the money interests shoving us to the right. Democratic leadership is dumping buckets of round-up on the grass roots - thanks to Fortune 500.

Civility is important but not the most important. Those who claim to be "offended" are often crying crocodile tears.

Like all political organizations, a prevailing view point is that DU is merely a place to ridicule republicans while espousing that the democratic party is a real conduit for change. Meanwhile, democrats have decided to turn a blind eye to the deception of a presidential candidate who campaigned on change and with a brilliant arrogance and cynicism - kicked the grass roots in the stomach, is fighting tooth and nail for the status quo and tells us to shut up about it.

I see the hallowed and ivy covered walls of DU becoming a cavernous venue for debating the merits of "reform" like HCR as if it were an extension of the DLC back office designed to butter up DLC talking points.

There is censorship at work here. It is a concerted effort to filter out people against the two mainstream political machines. Du has run its course with me - I come here to hear view points that aren't expressed elsewhere - I can read the dem party talking points or read the idiotic emails from the whitehouse (did anyone else get the insipid emails that had only a number in the subject line? Jesus - are they trying to test anti-virus/anti-spam software on email servers across the country?)

Democrats can complain all they want about health insurance monopolies - the fact is we have a political monopoly and we are expecting it to regulate corporate monopolies.

Quiet and compliant Democrats get what they deserve - war, wire tapping, shitty health plan that screws the middle class, torture, banking reform written by banks, health reform written by insurance companies and a growing tea party counter weight that WILL be extremely influential.

Democrats need to stop complaining about republicans and start complaining about democrats. Until that time, things will just keep getting worse and worse no matter how much DU censors the real and palpable anger from a growing class of well educated, hard working liberals just like me.

Yes I am angry at democrats, no I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Fuck anyone who thinks there is. Democrats have screwed up bad. They shit on the floor and now they are trying to sweep it under the carpet. Angry people create change. Compliant democrats, centrists, moderates, realists, neo-cons, free-marketeers are behaving like sociopaths - using every means at their disposal to take advantage of others with not an ounce of empathy, guilt or remorse or acknowledgment for the chaos they have created in the process.












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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Interesting respond.
Thank you for taking the time to express your disagreement with the opinions I voiced in the OP.

I am -- among other things -- a Malcolm X Democrat. Those familiar with Malcolm's life, including his relationship with certain factions of the Democratic Party, understand that. I'd use my frequent advocacy of an updated Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party as an example.

Hence, I am not suggesting that anyone refrain from making points about how elected officials in Washington (and state capitals) have betrayed the public's trust. Those who have sworn to uphold the Constitution have betrayed that, as well.

In late 1964 and early '65, as he came to take a more active role in politics, Malcolm did not hesitate to express his beliefs about politicians betraying the public trust and the Constitution. He did, however, make a point of not only not attacking other civil rights leaders, but to also attempt to mend fences and create a united front.

Regarding the grass roots: Malcolm told a story about a village, where a giant lived. The giant was asleep in his house, when the structure caught on fire. The villagers were considering their options for saving the giant, by carrying him out of the house. Then, someone suggested waking the giant up, so that he could save himself from the dangers of the burning building. The giant, of course, was the grass roots, and the burning house was America. I think Malcolm's fables still are of great value.

I'm not "offended" by the frequently disrespectful and too often hateful comments that are substituted for rational thought and reason on this forum. I'm not offended by piles of dog feces on a sidewalk, either, though I prefer to not step in them. I'm not crying any tears. In my years of participation on this forum, I've never been in a position to censur anyone, nor have I attempted to be in such a position. However, I have had a number of my own comments zapped by those in the position to do so.

I certainly understand that there are many on this forum who do not hold the same views on civility, including the advantages it can offer us, that I do. In fact, if everyone on this forum held the exact same beliefs, the discussions would become sterile and utterly meaningless. Likewise, when the tipping point is reached, where people without any sense of civility engage in mindless, hateful attecks on those who think differently than themselves, things surely degenerate.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:38 PM
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54. Peace be with you H2O man!
Take care of yourself!
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 08:59 PM
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55. Great to read you again, dear man. Welcome back.! Nt
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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:59 PM
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56. Best wishes for a speedy recovery
and thank you.
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thread-bear Donating Member (58 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
58. Get Well
Hi, H2O Man, there are persons of intelligence and character that stand out in this forum; you are one of them. I have been wrong many times in my life,sometimes passionately. The two things that changed my mind about different subjects are experience and reason. People that desire truth will listen to reason. What troubles me about the present times is the rise and dominance of propaganda. Propaganda is not necessarily lies. It can contain total truth. It is the effect that it has on normal people that makes it so dangerous. Because of its addictive effect, there comes a time when truth does not matter. It requires an us vs them attitude. Soon the mind becomes dependent on the strong emotions that it generates. Anger, hate, outrage, and joy. It becomes a drug. Good luck and best wishes on your situation.
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