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Check out this OFFICIAL U.S. POSITION on the legality of torture

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 04:45 PM
Original message
Check out this OFFICIAL U.S. POSITION on the legality of torture
Edited on Mon Feb-08-10 04:51 PM by Land Shark
These are the written and signed words of the US Government's Department of State, after "extensive" consultations with the Department of Justice and numerous other federal agencies and offices:

United States representatives participated actively in the formulation of the United Nations Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Being Subjected to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, adopted in 1975, and in the negotiation of the Convention against Torture. {...}

Torture is prohibited by law throughout the United States. It is categorically denounced as a matter of policy and as a tool of state authority. Every act constituting torture under the Convention constitutes a criminal offence under the law of the United States. No official of the Government, federal, state or local, civilian or military, is authorized to commit or to instruct anyone else to commit torture. Nor may any official condone or tolerate torture in any form. No exceptional circumstances may be invoked as a justification of torture. United States law contains no provision permitting otherwise prohibited acts of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment to be employed on grounds of exigent circumstances (for example, during a “state of public emergency”) or on orders from a superior officer or public authority, and the protective mechanisms of an independent judiciary are not subject to suspension. The United States is committed to the full and effective implementation of its obligations under the Convention throughout its territory.

Paragraph 6 of Initial Report of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA to the UN Committee on Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment
Dated October 15, 1999
Archived at, inter alia, http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/cat/cat-reports2000.html


That was in late 1999, and we all know what happened in 2000, and thereafter...

Paragraph 7 of the above report goes on to state why the above international law, once freely recognized and promoted by the USA, is important:

"No Government, however, can claim a perfect record in each of the areas and obligations covered by the Convention."

And, indeed, the great lack of perfection in both humanity and governments in adhering to basic human rights is, and was, true worldwide.

What's different now, and what makes a huge difference overall, is this:



1. The frequency and systematic nature of abuses,

and, what makes everything incredibly worse:

2. endorsement of such abuses as approved by the law of the land, or, alternatively, not expressly prohibited by domestic law (which domestic law, by the way, every signatory country to the Convention including the USA is obliged to adjust so that domestic laws mirror or exceed the Convention's protections against all forms of inhumane treatment including, but not limited to, torture).

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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ah, but the devil is in the details
Is waterboarding torture? You know it is; I know it is; Jesse Ventura and Mancow Muller definitely know that it is.

But all it takes is one shyster like Liz Cheney to muddy the waters by saying otherwise.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Not really. Lesser "inhuman and degrading treatment" is EQUALLY prohibited
Edited on Mon Feb-08-10 05:00 PM by Land Shark
It doesn't muddy the waters except (and i admit this has worked to some extent) people get confused and allow the waters to be muddied.

There is no clearer law anywhere. If one seeks more clarity, one will seek in vain. Anything can be decontructed and muddied by someone committed to doing so, it's up to everyone else to see through that muddy water.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes, it does allow the waters to be muddied
Especially by those who ordered waterboarding and carried out the orders. Some of those people are very powerful.

Of course, if you want to argue that waterboarding is "inhuman and degrading treatment," I'm sure shysters like Liz Cheney or John Yoo will be on hand to say it isn't that, either.

If Bush and Cheney had ordered terror suspects to be stretched on the rack or boiled in oil, those same shysters would be there to argue in their defense. If Torquemada himself were paying them to be his advocate, or if they just had some particular interest in seeing him acquitted, they would do no less for him.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Like you say, there isn't ANYTHING that can't be 'argued' by shysters, so why call it all muddy?
The Cheney arguments you refer to are like (insert your own simile here) arguing driver's licenses are void under the Uniform Commercial Code. One can argue it, as can one argue literally any position one's motivated to take for other reasons, but it's still crazy, and doesn't deserve respect.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Panetta said he'd keep renditon. Brennan has endorsed torture in public.
Gates covered up torture for Bush. McChrystal hid prisoners from the ICRC and is STILL hiding them today. Blair has a history of signing off on crimes against humanity e.g., his involvement in the Church Massacres in East Timor.

This would be a great town except for all the damn vampires. :shrug:
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Grrr.... n/t
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-09-10 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Rendition is transportation. That was one of our primary complaints against King George.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-09-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Rendition is kidnapping by another name.
Edited on Tue Feb-09-10 01:36 PM by EFerrari
Really, someone who knows more than I do should look at these appointments because they are disturbing. They indicate that this kidnapping and torture and targeted assassination policy that we found illegal and reprehensible under the torture president is not going to change any time soon.

I post about it all the time but in all honesty, it's hard to wrap my mind around the fact that Obama is continuing these policies and perhaps, improving on them. :shrug:
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-09-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. If you have any more leads, send 'em on if you like, i'll post on it n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-10-10 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. In aggregate, Obama's team is not an improvement in terms of human rights.
Edited on Wed Feb-10-10 05:03 AM by EFerrari
Overall, they are more experienced than the Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight under Bush. But that just makes them more effective, not less objectionable.

I correspond with Andy Worthington and he's just spent a lot of time piecing together a list of detainees at Bagram. Well, true to form, McChrystal has taken those prisoners and shipped them out to new detention centers located at US bases all over Afghanistan -- in places that are hard for the ICRC to get to. And, he seems to be operating a black site at Bagram, too.

And that's just one piece of this. Now Blair is saying, just trust us to only assassinate Americans overseas that intend to harm Americans. WTF?

And if our official policy is targeted assassination, it isn't too much of a leap to think that kidnapping is also a "tool" they're willing to use. Panetta already said as much as his confirmation hearing.

Add to all of this, the Obama administration knows damn well that the coupsters in Honduras have been beating, torturing, raping, and disappearing people and there has not been ONE SINGLE WORD from them about it. What conclusions can be drawn from this silence?

While we argue about vending machines in schools, the Bush era human rights abuses continue only under better management. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but, that seems to be the situation.

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. k/r
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PuraVidaDreamin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you for staying on top of these issues
Keep 'em coming okay
xo
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. 9-11 Changed EVERYTHING
Didn't you get the memo?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Katrina changed everything BACK. Didn't you get that memo? : ) n/t
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Duzy. n/t
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-09-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. THere is a memo, it may have been written here on DU! : ) n/t
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. kickin'
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-08-10 09:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. k & r
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-09-10 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
14. .
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-09-10 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
15. kick
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-09-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. Sicko Fascist Empire will get all it deserves in the end
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2 Much Tribulation Donating Member (522 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-09-10 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. some are taking more than they deserve right now, as you know... n/t
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