The Problem With Pro-Choice Men

[Swede]

Do the DU women think the male DUers silent on this?


Why do male pro-lifers speak their minds while pro-choice guys stay silent? Hugh Ryan on the fight's glaring gender divide—and why men are turning against abortion rights in droves.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-02-05/the-problem-with-pro-choice-men/?cid=hp:beastoriginalsL2

[slackmaster]

1. Men generally see the issue as not being their problem

Even though it is.

K&R

[RC]

10. That is because we are being told by women it is not our problem, it is theirs.

[slackmaster]

13. But we have to get along with women, therefore all of their problems are ours and vice-versa

:hi:

[seabeyond]

25. i do fight for the issues men have. men and boys. you betcha. nt

[RC]

48. Actually I believe the same also.

The link is a comment section of a anit-abortion LTTE in a small town newspaper, i.e., the the Bismarck (ND) Tribune.
Start at the bottom and go up. Mine is the first response at the bottom.(fgores said on: February 3, 2010, 5:59 am)
Oh, please do jump in and have some fun. 8-)

http://www.bismarcktribune.com/news/opinion/mailbag/article_8bfd343e-107c-11df-b887-001cc4c03286.html?mode=comments

P.S. you may want to address my "One last question: If Americans do not want abortion to be legal, then why are there so many abortions preformed then?"


Later on, these are the questions they want me to answer:

fgores said on: February 6, 2010, 8:31 pm "These questions?
"If a baby that is 10 weeks old and of perfect health is left alone for about 3 or 4 months, would the baby be dead or alive?"

"1) If someone can't live without temporary medical treatment until they can survive on their own, should they even be given the opportunity to continue living?

2) Does it make a difference if they are a newborn or senior citizen?"

"What does lung function and the need for temporary life support have to do with this argument?"

"Do you think abortion should be legal up until the moment of birth? Can a woman in the delivery room change her mind?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No wonder people think the Right has reality issues. Here's some proof. "

[KakistocracyHater]

176. how about the stone-babies, they have fingerprints, some even have faces

what about them? As for the diff between the Unborn & a Senior: one has a life, tastes, preferences, a personality, friends, has taken a breath & so according to one reading of the Bible has a "soul"; one has none of those things & can spontaneously abort naturally

-when will they charge a woman who WANTS to carry to term & cannot with 'murder'?

[mudplanet]

52. Or, we are all human beings and if I'm silent when another is being oppressed who will stand up for

me?

[bettyellen]

36. no- not your decison to carry to term or not, and you sound kinda bitter about that

is that why you are fine letting the fundies invade our bodies- if you ca'lt maybe someone else should?

[liberalhistorian]

187. Why shouldn't men have a voice in the decision if it's their

baby also? Maybe part of the reason they're turning against abortion rights is that they are given NO say whatsoever in it and that is, quite understandably, very upsetting to them. Just because some men are jerks who abandon their pregnant girlfriends/wives (like my son's sperm donor did) or who don't want to deal with it, doesn't mean that ALL men are like that. For some, it causes very real pain that they have no say in it if their girlfriend/wife wants an abortion and they don't want it. And those feelings need to be acknowledged and respected. It isn't just all about us women.

[thunder rising]

14. I have sisters and nieces. Think about that? Even my mom I think after 6 took a little trip.

[noamnety]

21. Yep, and I have a daughter

I'm too old - and retrofitted - to have this as a personal concern anymore.

But I have an interest in not seeing my daughter curled up bleeding to death from a botched procedure in a hotel room.

[JerseygirlCT]

67. I think it's your problem in the same way that civil rights

is a "problem" even for white folks.

This is an issue of women's rights. If you support civil rights, you support women's right to their own bodies. So pro-choice men ought to speak up.

OTOH, those opposed to civil rights, including women's rights, really ought to realize they don't get to restrict other people's rights.

[liberal N proud]

2. Don't know if this answers your question but IMOP

It's not my body, I don't think I can tell women what they should be doing with their body.

Pro Choice men unlike pro-birth men are not going to protest and incite violence to voice our opinion. I will not force my opinion on another.

[noamnety]

15. Being prochoice isn't telling women what they should do with their body.

It's supporting their right to make their own decisions. If you are pro choice, you aren't forcing an abortion or birth on another person.

I think those with privilege (whether that be male, white, straight, industrialized country, etc) have a moral obligation to be vocal in support of human rights for everyone - especially when we got to have this privilege on the backs of those other people, by (historically) trampling their rights.

[bettyellen]

35. WTF? the ignorance you display on this issue is frightening, wow. pls find out what choice is...

because it sounds like you think it;s forced abortions. seriously thoughtless post.

[liberal N proud]

51. Wow, you got that backward

It is more like forced to have the child that I am worried about.

But seriously, if you missed that, sorry.

[bettyellen]

you can actually choose to protect yourself from having a child you know

by using condoms + a back up you could up the effectiveness to pretty much 100% preventing a pregnancy .(and if you were at rishk of actually being forced ot have the kid- you might take those precaustions, right?) and you could also choose not to have sex with someone who'd go and bear a baby against your wishes. or you could take the low road, be lazy and pretend to be a victim of a woman you were lazy and careless with. what makes no sense is you afraid a woman might keep a baby you don;t want - yet you're not a vocal supporter of choice. why would you want anyone forced into parenthood if you feel that way?

[liberal N proud]

144. This is why I remain silent

And should have not bothered with this thread.

:crazy:

[liberalhistorian]

189. Jesus H. Christ, that is NOT what he said AT ALL,

where in the HELL are you getting any of that? And this is why I understand why men so often stay silent on this issue, no matter what they say it's twisted and distorted and turned around. You DO realize that we women bear some responsibility as well, it's not all just men, and that not every man is the enemy, right? Sheesh.

[bettyellen]

107. .

[liberal N proud]

3. delete

Dupe

[Tim01]

4. I see it as none of my business.

I do think women should have the choice. I'm not a woman, so I kind of think I should stay out of it.


I do see where my silence causes a problem. Since anti-choice guys won't shut up.

[noamnety]

18. Think about the broader implications of that.

White men shouldn't fight for civil rights for people of color.

People with health insurance shouldn't bother themselves about people who don't have insurance.

Straight people shouldn't bother to vote for marriage equality.

People who can afford to pay off their credit cards each month shouldn't speak out against predatory lending fees.

--------------
I always thought one of the unifying things about the left is that we feel an obligation to speak out in support of human rights - not just looking out to ensure we got ours, speaking out only when an issue affects us directly. I think of the self-centered approach ("not my problem") as being inherently republican.

[Rage for Order]

56. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways

Men are repeatedly told that, if they oppose abortion, it is none of their business, STFU, it's not their body, and they should stay out of it. However, if they are pro-choice suddenly it is their business, they should speak up, and their opinion matters? Men's views on abortion either matter or they don't. They can't matter only when you agree with their position.

:shrug:

[noamnety]

58. You aren't getting it.

Anti choice is about men restricting women's ability to make their own choice. Men making the choice for them.

Pro choice is about men & women supporting a woman's right to make her own decision. When you are pro choice - you ARE supporting the woman to make that decision without interference from a man.

[Bjorn Against]

64. It is not about agreement or disagreement, it is about standing up for basic human rights

When you are talking about the personal decisions of a woman on whether or not she should carry a baby to term that is really none of our business and we should leave that up to the woman to decide. While I am pro-choice I would never encourage a woman to have an abortion, but I would support her in whatever choice she made. I don't think it is our business to tell a woman what they should or should not do with their body, if they want our advice they will ask for it but until they seek out my advice on their personal decisions I will remain quiet.

What I will not remain quiet on however is standing up for the rights of all people to control their own bodies. This is not about a personal decision, this is about ensuring that women are not treated as criminals during a time when they need to make an incredibly gut-wrenching decision. There are plenty of people who are personally opposed to abortion but do not try to force their personal morals on to others, I can respect such a position. What I can not respect however is the position that women should be legally forced to carry a baby to term and then find a way to financially support that child until they are eighteen years old. Such a position is extremely detrimental to freedom and human rights, and whether we are men or women we need to stand up for the basic rights of other humans.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

186. Very well said.

:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

78. BRAVO . . . !!! Lovely post -- !!

:)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

185. Hear Here... anyone thinking they should stay out of the fight

should read this.

[BoneDaddy]

41. I disagree

I have an opinion about many things that do not have anything to do with me. Does it make it wrong or right? It makes it less personal absolutely, but to say you have no opinion or right to one, is a cop out to me. I am mixed on abortion to be honest. I do not think it should be minimized, nor do I think it should be shameful, but the truth of the matter is the longer you wait to have one, the less moral it is. I have no problem with you aborting a cell construct. I am all for the abortiona pill, no biggie to me, but if you can justify having an abortion when the fetus could be birthed and sustain itself, your argument becomes less tangible. It becomes cruel. That is the honest truth from my point of view. You may not like it but it is what it is.

[immoderate]

47. Fetuses are not viable before the sixth month (at least.) So that leaves 1%

Of those, few are "recreational" abortions. There are issues more worthy of concern.

--imm

[liberalhistorian]

191. Umm......yeah, they actually are.

A good friend of mine was born at just five months and not only survived but turned out pretty well. And that's happening more and more nowadays.

[Tim01]

96. "the less moral it is." Don't try to tell me what is moral and what is not.

How old are you?

[MindPilot]

54. That's the same as saying you can't criticize the war if you never served.

I don't need to join the Marines to know war sucks; I don't need to be a minority to know equality is important.

[Tim01]

97. I NEVER said I think other guys should stay out of it. nt

[Robb]

155. That's actually an interesting tangent

...Since on DU we regularly tell people who are in favor of the escalation in Afghanistan to "go enlist."

[seabeyond]

5. i find that often with men on many women issues. if they are not the problem.... they stay quiet

i think there is a couple of reasons for this.

i hear often from men, i dont do it, think it. they dont feel that they need to challenge their fellow males

then on the other hand, i watched a video of a guy telling men to stfu about abortion, and he was pretty aggressive about it. so there are some men that do speak out

[ThomWV]

6. I'm not silent a bit, not when the subject is being discussed - but I don't bring it up

because, as others have said, this isn't my fight.

[mac56]

7. that's it exactly

:thumbsup:

[SidDithers]

19. Agreed...nt

Sid

[Lorien]

30. I'm straight, but marriage equality is my fight

because civil rights are something that every Democrat and liberal should fight for. None of us are truly free unless we are ALL free, and that includes the freedom to govern our bodies and choose our spouses.

[ThomWV]

34. I feel exactly the same way about that as I do about abortion - I agree and will defend

You're right, and I agree with your position, and if we are standing there arguing with someone, or anyone, and even if its just me and you're not there, I will still stand up for marriage equality - but I won't be the guy bringing it up because its not my fight.

Ask me how I feel about the NSA spying on every single one of us or how I feel about the CIA murdering American citizens with the President's OK and then we have another matter - see, I brought them up here, because these things are my fight.

[defendandprotect]

79. Isn't justice and human rights everyone's "fight" . . . ???

I thought so???

[defendandprotect]

80. Isn't justice and human rights everyone's concern???

I certainly think so -- !!

Being pro-choice isn't telling anyone what to do --

it's acknowledging their right to make their own decisions!

[KG]

8. why do men need to publicly advocate for something that already is?

choice is the law.

there aren't many ads promoting 'right turn on red', it would be those who are campaigning against it who would be buying ads and raising hell about it.

[noamnety]

22. Because for those paying attention the states are increasingly prohibiting choice.

Either outright trying to make it illegal, or violating the privacy intent of Roe v. Wade, or making it inaccessible financially or otherwise. And we have the congress now trying to make it inaccessible through excluding its coverage in the HCR.

This is not an issue that's been resolved - not by a long shot.

[KG]

42. I agree, but the premise is pro-choice men aren't making enough noise.

it seems to me it's just that the other is making so much more noise.

[noamnety]

43. It's a little of both.

There are some pro-choice men who are vocal.

But you can also see in this thread there are men even here - on an activist site - who admit they exclude women's rights from the list of issues they are willing to speak out against. "Not my problem" - even though I'm sure they speak out about other issues that don't affect them directly.

[KG]

44. 'not my problem' is not my personal view. coz 'womens rights' fall into my 'human rights' file.

it's all part of the same struggle for me.

[Lorien]

27. Because they are trying to overturn that law. nt

[thunder rising]

9. WUT? This is crap. The OP goes from the specific to the general without connection

First it's about DU then the supporting statement is "all males"

[Political Heretic]

11. I'm pro choice and I speak out.

Cheers. :toast:

[Ozymanithrax]

12. I've never been shy about letting people know I'm pro-choice...

I will defend the right of women to make those decisions themselves.

And freedom of choice isn't just woman's business, because choice isn't just about abortion.

But pro-life men are married to the world view of absolute god commanded male domination. They are vocal because abortion is just a side issue to them. To them, no woman should ever voice her opinion until a man tells her what it is and gives her permission to move her lips.

[pipi_k]

16. I can certainly understand the men who are saying it's not their fight, but...

OTOH, it's not really my fight, either.

As a woman, I'm past the age where I'd need to make a choice myself. Yet I'm pretty vocal about the rights of women younger than myself to have that choice, so...

I think there's lots of grey area here, and no real right or wrong...I appreciate men who do speak up, but certainly don't hold a grudge against Pro Choice men who stay silent on the issue.




**
Edited for dumb mistake

[eggplant]

17. The premise is wrong

I'm a pro-choice man and I absolutely speak out.

[JoeyT]

20. We're not silent.

And men aren't turning against abortion rights in droves, either. The ones that are already against choice have more money and more power backing them than the ones that are in favor of choice. They have a lot more exposure in the media, too.

Speaking for myself, I tend to not be quite as combative about abortion rights on here because the vast majority of people here support them and I figure before I can get my angry half page post fired off at someone there will be 20 posts that already make the same arguments. The same goes for other feminist issues.

By the way: "Not wanting to tell women what to do with their bodies" is a bit of a cop out. We're not fighting to force women to have abortions, we're fighting to prevent their choice and their rights from being taken away. It's an argument that would be morally and logically comparable to refusing to support other civil rights because you're not a member of that minority/religion/orientation. It's like saying that forcing gays to be married would violate their civil liberties, so we shouldn't fight for their right to choose to get married.

Edited to add: There's also the problem that it's impossible to guess the gender of most people by their username alone. So if they didn't fill in the gender field, you often can't tell.

[KingFlorez]

23. I speak up when there are threats to choice

But other than that, I really think it is woman's issue and there isn't much I could or should be saying about it.

[glowing]

24. Its not "proc-choice" its pro-women. Supporting women to choose their rights over

their bodies concerning medical procedures. An individual woman will know what to do or who to ask for support or advice when it comes to a personal decision like this. Its treating women with respect and understanding that they are capable of making decisions. It may not be my decision to have an abortion, unless medical problems arose, but I am sure that women will make the decision that they need for their individual needs in their lives.

Men who are pro-life are more than likely sexist asshats who believe women belong in a submissive role in a home and in society.

[Lorien]

26. I wish there were more DUers like our own Thomcat

he's both a strong and vocal advocate for a woman's right to choose AND a self defined feminist. The women of DU appreciate him, believe me!

[noamnety]

37. +1000

one of the best DU has to offer.

[seabeyond]

38. sheeeit. he is a better feminist than i am. he is teaching me a lot. i respect and admire

a man that looks at all groups being descriminated against with such a balanced and sensable perspective.

he kicks ass.

[Starry Messenger]

28. There are men here who speak up about it.

Gay men in particular tend to be tireless allies because they know this enemy we fight in common: RW hate and "liberal" indifference.

[donheld]

29. As a gay man, I very much see this as a man's issue too

It's very much a man's issue. Once they can tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body
They'll try to tell we men what we can do with ours.

[Lorien]

31. They can also tell you to pay child support (if you are looking for purely selfish

reasons to support anything). Why did some whites march with Dr. King? Because racism and segregation are wrong. Why should men fight to protect a woman's right to control her own body? Because it's the right thing to do. You don't need to benefit personally to take action.

[MindPilot]

49. That is exactly why I prefer to call it sexual freedom or reproductive righst

The words "choice" or "right to choose" seem to limit the argument to abortion IMHO.

[JerseygirlCT]

69. Yes. It's an issue of individual rights at the most basic level. And yes,

if they feel comfortable restricting mine, you better believe they'll feel fine restricting yours down the road.

Well said, Donheld.

[lunatica]

32. Lots of men are involved in the 'choice' of whether to have an abortion or not

It's a myth to think that women make these decisions by themselves all the time. Roe v. Wade is about women having the last word about it because their bodies are involved. It's more about who has rights over their body. Women also have the right to choose to have the baby.

Husbands, brothers and fathers are deeply involved in many cases. Anyone who denies that is being insincere.

[Codeine]

33. I'm a man who is openly and vocally pro-choice

in any and all forums or environments, public or private. It is critical that all pro-choice folks - regardless of the shape of their junk - speak their minds when the subject is broached, so as to make those around them understand that the anti-choice view is not monolithic or universally held.

[seabeyond]

39. you know. i hear and know too many men that speak out about this. so i am going to

go with...

they do.

[Hawkeye-X]

40. I'm pro choice, and I don't force the issue on anyone

I just let them be - live as how they want to live.

I can speak out against the pro-life people. With a pair of rusty hedge clippers. Just to prove my point. I can choose if I want to cut the pro-life men's balls off.

[Jakes Progress]

45. Go ahead. Alienate the hundreds of DU males

who post and speak up regularly. Tell us how bad we are. Lump all men together like you want men to do with women.

I support and work for various causes. My time working for pro-choice is time I could be doing other things if you don't want us.

Seriously, your fit won't keep me from defending women's rights, but try to less dumb when it comes to advocacy and public relations. Sheesh. One post like this is used for fodder by the nasties for weeks.

[omega minimo]

103. what "hundreds of males who post and speak up regularly"? On DU? Where?

The Big Forums foster a climate that marginalizes women and women's rights issues. Topics are attacked and flamed and locked by the usual suspects using the usual ill tactics....

It is MEMORABLE and duly noted in a thread when a male comes to counterbalance the insane behaviors that force women and women's rights issues/topics off the main pages.

[Jakes Progress]

131. So you don't like it when someone

suggests that progressive women are all alike? Hmmmm.

What you have here is a solid supporter of women's right to choose, one who has donated frequently to the cause, has bailed out those arrested for exercising their right to protest this issue, and who has written a dozen op-ed columns making the point that women should not be deprived of the right to determine what happens with their own bodies.

The OP is correct that the forum has more than a righteous share of frat boys. But the title of the OP disses pro-choice DU males. Just a stupid thing to do, I thought. Sort of like, "Here, help me carry this load, you stupid, lazy asshole."

I agree with your last sentence that these issues are not the forefront of what proposes to be a liberal or even progressive forum. There are strong neocon flows in many issues on DU. I think that comes from the incessant and well-financed media pounding brought to us by the neocon movement. We get the same thing with DU'ers on education, unions, gays, and a host of progressive issues. But the OP addressed not the frat boys or the lurking troglodytes, but wanted to take prochoice DU males to task. Just dumb and counter productive.

[freeplessinseattle]

109. talk about projection

How did you get all that out of this?

"Do the DU women think the male DUers silent on this?"

She's asking, not lumping. These trigger happy defensive posts just highlight the tension and deeper hostility towards each other that sometimes seems even more challenging to overcome and address than the topic at hand.

[Jakes Progress]

130. Okay, Okay.

I get it. Only women can talk about this. You win.

[Caliman73]

151. The OP was just asking a question and linked an article with one perspective

There is no need to get defensive. I am a man, I am pro-choice, and whenever there is a discussion of the topic I make my position clear. I feel no attack or lumping of all men or all Progressive men into one category. If you support women's rights then just say so and continue to do what you do. Calling people out on an assumption is more divisive than what was stated in the OP.

[Jakes Progress]

153. Please read the title of the OP.

If she wants to complain about the frat boy atmosphere here on occasion, that would be something I would be glad to agree with.

But she says that there is a problem with people like you and I because we don't speak up on women's issues. That is what she said. We do speak up, but that is not something she acknowledged.

Personally I don't care what she thinks about me and her attitude will not deter me from my convictions or from speaking out. I just think it is a brain-dead way of voicing her frustrations, one that is short-sighted and counterproductive to the actions she would like to have take place.

[Caliman73]

154. Title of the OP is the title of the article. Click the link and look at the title

Granted it was not the most artful way of introducing a topic for discussion, but hey it is effective right? I mean it got us discussing. I hear what you are saying, but I don't look at it as an indictment of myself, nor of you based on what you say are your positions and actions to support those positions.

By the way. The OP is a MAN...

[Jakes Progress]

156. Right. It was not artful.

My point is that it was not only inartful, but counterproductive.

[Toasterlad]

202. I Hate This Stupid Argument.

I hear the same shit espoused by stupid "allies" of GLBT equality, who get all huffy if someone disagrees with the way an argument is framed. Suddenly, they're all "I'm taking my ball and going home if you don't appreciate me."

Newsflash: if one post on a chat board can dissaude you from being an ally to a cause, you were NEVER a true ally of the cause. And whether you stay with the cause or not, no one is interested in your advice about advocacy and public realtions.

Whether you agree with the OP that DU men are too silent on this issue (which I do not) or not, getting snippy because your poor widdle feelings got hurt is far less productive than a post which calls attention to the issues of men and reproductive rights, no matter what your disagreement with the presentation may be.

[MindPilot]

46. I've spent many many hours literally on the front lines of clinic defense

I've worn a bullet-proof vest and physically tangled with people trying to keep women from getting into the clinic.

I'll have to admit I didn't talk much during any of those incidents; so I guess I have been silent.

[seabeyond]

50. ya. i want to touch base on each post from men, cause this is one issue i dont think men fall short

and appreciate the active part in the issue....

so this post is to all the guys offended by op.

though each man that comes on here and states they are vocal is a good thing for op, and can help for her to see there is that support. changing minds is a good thing

[MindPilot]

53. Thank you. These kinds of generalizations really bug me.

In no small part because they are not true, especially for the men here on DU.

[yurbud]

55. Because whether abortion is legal or not, men ultimately have no say in whether women keep

their babies. Unless the guy wants to commit a felony by locking up the mother of his child, which few of us want to do.

And legally, it is difficult to think of a pro-male remedy that wouldn't empower abusers, rapists, etc, so we don't ask for one.

That makes for uneasy support of the pro-choice position among men except for the minority of gold neckchain wearing clubbers who never want to have kids anyway.

A friend of mine got a girl pregnant right after high school, and he begged her to keep the baby, but she wouldn't do it. I was worried throughout young adulthood that the same thing might happen to me and it made me avoid the casual ''hook up'' altogether.

[Bjorn Against]

65. Sorry, but if you want a child you need to find a woman who wants a child as well...

Quite frankly I find your words about locking up a woman to prevent them from having an abortion more than a little bit creepy even if you do say you don't "want" to do it.

[yurbud]

73. my point was it would be impossible to prevent a woman from having an abortion if she wanted one.

[Bjorn Against]

74. That would be a good thing, it is her body and she should be able to control it.

[yurbud]

77. she is able to control it. We modified the law to fit the reality. I would not say abortion is

a good thing, but like smoking, drinking alcohol, and gambling, it does more harm than good to make it illegal.

[defendandprotect]

82. Perhaps it is being male . . .

which prevents you from saying that CHOICE is a "good thing"?

What do you think you'd feel about this if you were female?

Do you think you'd ever want to be in a position where you were

forced to bear a child?

[yurbud]

92. I would not force anyone to bear a child but I would not encourage abortion either

or more precisely, the farther you get from conception the more uncomfortable I am with it.

[defendandprotect]

112. The question was, how you'd feel if you were female and forced to bear a child?

Would you not think then that abortion was a "good thing"?

Or would you just behave complacently and submit to the powers that be?

No one "encourages" abortion --

What is "encouraged" is CHOICE --

[yurbud]

133. the earlier response to what I posted sounded like they were mad at me for not celebrating abortion

it is at best a necessary evil; if someone says otherwise, they are mistaken or mentally ill.

[defendandprotect]

140. No one "celebrates abortion" nor expects anyone else to ...

I think your take on abortion is becoming really clear now --

you're moving further into troll area --

[yurbud]

93. why does it have to be good instead of just a necessary evil?

Do you only see things in black and white?

[defendandprotect]

113. "Good thing" is the term YOU chose and YOU used . . .

So then I guess YOUR question is for YOU to answer . . .

Do you only see things in black and white?

And here's your original post, in case you've forgetten what you said . . .

We modified the law to fit the reality. I would not say abortion is

a good thing,

but like smoking, drinking alcohol, and gambling, it does more harm than good to make it illegal.


And suggesting that abortion is a "necessary evil" would be like suggesting that the right to

self-defense is a necessary evil -- is it? Or is it a good thing?

Maybe even like suggesting that self-determination is a "necessary evil" . . . is it?


Many times abortion is an act of "self-defense" -- albeit against a fetus -- CHOICE!

Self-determination of course is a good thing -- few would say otherwise -- CHOICE!

[yurbud]

134. you're equating a fetus and an armed burglar? That's only true in the case of rape or incest

grow the fuck up.


Repeating bumper stickers isn't an argument.

[defendandprotect]

138. Ah ... "Speak so that we may know you" . . hmmmm....

And stop game-playing --

We seem to have a telling break in your rhythmn . . .

However, as most of us understand . . .


No -- self-defense vs a fetus is often about saving one's life --

or severe effects on one's health --

NOT breaking and entering!


And, again, self-determination is a "good thing" -- for everyone --

pregnant or not --

[yurbud]

141. go to the Guttmacher Institute and read the stats. few are about health or safety

most are about convenience and economics. The latter I can at least understand if not always agree with.

I would not deprive anyone of the right to choose, but I will not pretend that someone choosing abortion is a positive social good unless they were going to be an abominable parent or the child was so severely disabled that they couldn't have a recognizably human life.

Do you understand the difference between legally permissible and morally good?

You can abort all your kids if you want to. I won't stop you. Throw a party with your friends too. But why should you begrudge me feeling uneasy about the prospect of someone aborting my child? Do you have no depth beyond the bumper stickers you keep spouting?

Frankly, I think this is also a class issue. I read an old article on single parenting the other day that touched on this tangentially. It essentially said that upper middle class and above view an unplanned pregnancy as a nuisance that interferes with their plans that must be dispatched as quickly as possible whereas the poor see it as a challenge to rise up to. I found myself agreeing with the poor.


The funny thing is, kids don't always interfere with your plans. I teach college and have had women in class who have had abortions but more who are single mothers from families of very modest means. I do not judge either. But if someone asked me for my advice, I would tell them that if they did this and later decided it was a mistake, like the death penalty, it's a mistake that can't be undone.

[defendandprotect]

150. You're saying "late term abortions" are about "convenience" . . . ????

because that is certainly and CLEARLY what I was referring to in discussing

a woman's right to self-defense vs a fetus doing harm to her life and/or health!!???

But interesting to watch you now flying the flag of "bad hair day" re CHOICE!!


My depth, sensitivity and personal spirituality don't provide for second-guessing why women

have abortions. I support CHOICE.

Nor would I question the seriousness of any late term abortion -- which also grows more

serious in its effects on the woman's body.

And, that's where the emphasis should remain -- on the female right to chose.

Not pretending that is one's position -- but actually supporting that position --

without "bad hair day" right wing taglines!!



:eyes:

[yurbud]

152. you didn't say late term, which I agree are almost exclusively for severe deformities and such

[defendandprotect]

158. Progress . . . but that still leaves you with non-late term abortions as "convenience" -- !!!

NO abortions are about "convenience" nor "bad hair day" decisions --

because EVERY pregnancy has the power to totally change a female's life.


Now let's take that "convenience" framing and see how it applies to men who send

other men to war? Living men, men with established lives -- girlfriends, children,

parents, sisters, friends.

And those same men who drop bombs on civilians -- send drones over their heads?

How about the men who make and design weapons which will kill thousands if not

millions?

How much "inconvenience" is there in the mind of a man who designs a land mine, knowing

what it will be used for?

[yurbud]

75. what percentage of pregnancies are planned? and does every couple talk about

what they would do in the case of an ''accident'' ahead of time? I don't think so.

[defendandprotect]

83. About 2/3rd of the pregnancies are UNPLANNED ... as I recall this . . .

and about HALF of those unwanted pregnancies go forward --

THAT is why the "anti-abortion" right wingers don't want RU486 and Plan B, etal --

they would lose these future workers!

Nor do they want more effective, user-friendly contraception -- researched is still blocked!

[yurbud]

95. I don't have a problem with any of the methods you mentioned or any other form of birth control

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. Then how do they keep coming out with new contraceptives?

[defendandprotect]

111. There's a male contraceptive?

There's a 100% effective, user-friendly contraceptive?

I didn't know that --

?????

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

125. Happy to provide the education.

[defendandprotect]

139. Good . . . tell us what they are? And where they are -- ???

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

147. Back to your original statement.

Research hasn't been stopped on contraception. There have been many new highly effective and user friendly contraceptives released over the last 10 years.

[defendandprotect]

149. Again . . . a male contraceptive . . .??? What are the new methods?

I'm aware of nothing since the SPONGE which I think is 80+% effective?

Don't think anyone uses it without a condom?

There seem to be some products which are permanently placed in the body --

and have been harmful --

Also, I am aware there is a new product which STOPS menstruation for long periods

of time -- !!!

Menstruation . . . an evil in male eyes -- a value to women!!

What is the NEW, user-friendly contraception you're talking about?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

157. Post #83, which I responded to, never mentioned male contraception.

You brought up male contraception out of the blue.

[defendandprotect]

159. You replied to post #111 ... which clearly stated MALE CONTRACEPTION...

But tell me about any of the NEW contraception you think is out there --

and how it is user-friendly and 100% effective????

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

160. Post#111 was your response to my post#98. It was then that you brought up male contraception.

Nothing is 100% effective, but many are over 96% effective. Implanon and Depoprovera are two extremely effective (99%+ and 97%+) methods, that are user friendly and were approved by the FDA within the last 10 years. Let me know if I can do anything else for you.

[defendandprotect]

161. Male contraception is still a condom -- that's it --or vasectomy --

This Planned Parenthood chart covers all the methods --

If you hit the first link, you'll see that things are pretty much the same as ever --



Most effective: Female sterilization/vasectomy --

and the IUD which was available in the 1940's, at least --

and from time to time serious problems with various types of them.

The IMPLANT which I think has been with us since at least the 1970's --

though the rods are no longer as big, but it must still be IMPLANTED.

Cost $400-$800 for three years -- a considerable outlay.



In the 2% to 8% failure rate range -- the SHOT the PILL, the RING and the PATCH --

The SHOT is good for 3 months but is NOT recommended for long term use -- allergies, weight gain --

After a year of use many women stop having periods. Even more common with longer use.

6 months to leave the body. $35-75 plus costs of visit and/or examination.

The PILL has been with us since the 1960's -- revolutionary at that time.

Must be taken every day - same time -- based on hormones.

The RING is a variation on the IUD and like the pill and the patch is based on hormone delivery.

The PATCH - based on hormones -- $15-50 per patch.

Risks are long lasting side effects.


In the 15% to 25% failure rate . . .

Male Condom -- and The Female Condom is simply a variation on the male condom -- but avoids lates

and is PLASTIC --

Does not have an effect on women's natural hormones.

Diaphram, Cervical Cap and the Sponge -- Spermicides -- none of this new, of course.



http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/birth-control/female-condom-4223.htm

http://www.fwhc.org/birth-control/bcdepo.htm#risks



What may look "new" to you are simply variations on old methods --

The responsibility for birth control remains largely upon the female --

so do the costs and all the inconveniences -- so do the health risks.

The effectiveness has NOT improved -- nor has the user-friendly nature of these methods.

Still requires prescription, office visits by females, examinations, implantation, etal.

Including COSTS.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

166. Again I never mentioned male contraception, you did.

Implanon has a 99.7% success rate. Getting a shot every 3 months is much more user friendly than taking a pill everyday.

[defendandprotect]

168. Again -- mail contraception is non-existent except for condom + vasectomy ....

And I think since the full burden of contraception remains upon females, it would

up to them to tell us what's user-friendly and what's not --!!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

173. I never said differently. You certainly seem to have an opinion about what is user friendly.

Why can't I?

[defendandprotect]

174. How many times have YOU used Implanton?

I'm a female ...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

177. How many times have you?

[defendandprotect]

178. In other words, being male you've never used any of these products . . .

once again, Dave, it ends the same way --

you're full of it --

but, at least for anyone who wants to read it, it's once again laid out here --!!


Bye --

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

179. In other words, you've never taken it either. Just so everyone's clear.

Of course I've never taken it, it's a contraceptive for women. Of course I never claimed to have taken it. Your point about no new research into contraception was simply bullshit and you didn't like getting called on it.

[Bjorn Against]

85. It doesn't matter, no man should be able to choose a woman's medical decisions for her

If men got pregnant then it would be their choice as to whether or not they wanted to spend nine months of their lives going through the physical stress of a pregnancy. You do not have control over a body that is not your own however, you have choice over your body and the woman controls the choices related to her own body. She can not choose your medical decisions for you and you can not choose her medical decisions for her.

If you don't talk to your partner ahead of time about what you would do in the case of an unplanned pregnancy then that is your problem, you can't expect a woman to go through major life changes that she never agreed to go through.

[yurbud]

94. Did I say a guy should be able to determine it? I was merely pointing out why guys would be uneasy

[defendandprotect]

115. Again, you show your bias toward empathy ONLY with the "guy" . . .

Why wouldn't a female also be "uneasy" . . . ??

I doubt they teach anything about "accidents" in abstinence ONLY sex education --

however, quite some time back there were efforts made in relationship/sex education

classes to give students an idea of the pressures put on both teenaged male and females

to have sex -- or to engage in specific sexual acts. The idea was to act out scenes

in the classroom based on some "real life" dialogue.

This idea of strengthening resistance to peer pressure -- to pressure from one's boyfriend

or girlfriend seemed quite successful, but did not meet with right wing approval.

Perhaps it was too effective?

[yurbud]

128. the guy angle was the point of the OP, also, the female side is ably represented here.

I'm covering the man bites dog angle.

[defendandprotect]

137. No -- the OP is about males not being openly "pro-choice" which may not be true ...

at any rate --

[Bjorn Against]

57. I am a man who has stood on the frontlines to protect abortion rights

Last year I rode a bus out to South Dakota to campaign against Measure 11, an initiative that if passed would have banned all abortions in the state. I went door to door in a small town in which nearly 90% of the voters were registered Republicans trying to get people to vote no. I had one guy suggest that he wanted to shoot me, and I had many others tell me they were going to "pray for my soul". I have stood on the frontlines of the battle and I am more than willing to stand on the frontlines again.

Here is a photo of me holding a "No on 11" sign outside the main headquarters of the group pushing the abortion ban.

[MellowDem]

59. Some on here have advocated...

that men be silent on this issue, whether they know it or not, by defining it as purely a woman-only issue, and no man can have an opinion because they can't get pregnant. I marvel at how some have done more to push men away from being pro-choice than pro-lifers ever could.

[seabeyond]

60. maybe that is an issue we ought to take up. i have never said a man not be a part of it

because then it also applies to those that defend choice. i prefer to argue the rights issue than gender issue.

[MellowDem]

66. No, you've always been very sensible...

and I always appreciate your perspective. :-)

[seabeyond]

71. that

is a huge thank you. appreciate it.

[Posteritatis]

63. I've been told severla times that I'm not to have or voice an opinion on the matter

That usually doesn't stop me from doing so, and I believe the women who tell me that I can't are being only slightly less stupid than the bulk of the anti-abortion crowd, but I'm convinced it's part of the reason why at least some guys give the whole issue a wide berth; they're told they can't do otherwise.

[defendandprotect]

86. Having an opinion on a woman's right to CHOOSE is quite different from

having the right to tell her what to do about a pregnancy --

or demanding that she either have an abortion or go forward with the pregnancy.

Males certainly can speak out and support justice and human rights -- and reproductive

freedom is certainly a human right for the female.

[Posteritatis]

91. Oh, I understand the difference

And I utterly waive any such 'right' in the second case until such time as the Forces of Science(tm) fit me out with a womb one day without my knowledge, a contingency that's somewhat low on the list of things I plan for.

It's the first that I'm talking about - I've been told, clearly and explicitly, that I have no right to an opinion, even one in favor of abortion rights, because I have the wrong chromosome. I try to ignore people who tell me that, but I imagine there's others who can't.

[defendandprotect]

110. I don't think you understand . ..

And if anyone did actually suggest to you that you can't support CHOICE, then

not only are they mistaken -- but you are mistaken to listen to them.

[Posteritatis]

122. Oh, they're mistaken, *and* I try not to listen to them. (nt)

[noamnety]

99. I'm finding that a little hard to believe.

I've seen Thomcat speak out again and again in favor of women's rights, including reproductive rights, and I have never once seen any woman here jump on him for being male and supporting our rights.

Now if you were vocal about telling women they should be restricted from having decision authority over their own bodies, then I can believe people told you to back off, because it's not your place to tell a third party what medical procedures they can or can't undergo. But I've never read a post telling a man that he doesn't have the right to support women's sovereignty over their own bodies.

I'd love to see a link to an example ... but at the same time I know the burden of searching for specific examples is a pain and people have lives, so don't feel pressured. Just saying - if you have an example and want to show it off, I'd be interested in reading it.

[wickerwoman]

101. Yep. I'd like to see some links too.

I've never seen anyone tell a man on DU that he's not entitled to support reproductive rights because it's none of his business.

What I have said a few times is "if you don't like abortions, don't have one" but that's not at all the same thing as saying "you can't have a baby, therefore you're not allowed to say anything about abortion."

[Posteritatis]

121. Technology can't provide URLs to personal conversations

Yes, yes, I know this means I'm clearly a liar because the only facts are those with URLs attached, as per the standard bullshit rules about "link plz" comments here, but the fact remains that I'm not.

[wickerwoman]

124. I'm referring to the claims that this occurs on DU.

I'm not saying you're a liar. I'm saying I don't recall *on DU* that people regularly jump down the throats of men who express support on pro-choice threads. In fact, this sounds kind of absurd to me. When was the last time someone agreed with you and you told them to mind their own business, they can never understand, etc.?

The framing question of the thread was "Do the DU women think the male DUers silent on this?" (presumably *on DU*).

One response was: "Maybe because women think its a "women only" issue, so they don't even let us into the discussion?"

Another was: "That is because we are being told by women it is not our problem, it is theirs."

So I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for an example on DU of women shouting down pro-choice men, excluding them from the conversation or telling them to STFU.

[bettyellen]

163. it;s never occured here, and these guys think qualified limited support of reproductive rights

is somehow the same as being truly pro choice. misguided.

[bettyellen]

108. no you haven't... unless you were in favor of curtailing womens' reproductive freedom

in which case you do not belong here.
post links if this happened to you, so we can show you how confused you are.

[MellowDem]

145. It's a big board...

so don't be surprised that it has happened. And yes, I have seen it. The issue of abortion isn't quite black and white. The whole issue of when abortions should no longer be accessible depending on the situation, etc. People have an opinion on this, including pro-choice men, but I have seen threads where men are basically told to shut up about this because, well, they are men. It would be different if it were just a difference of opinion, but it's like their opinion doesn't even count because they are male. Personally, I don't really feel like looking up links (and don't know really how to either) to find them. You can assume I'm lying, but whatever.

[bettyellen]

162. No men are here only told to STFU when they don't wholehardliy support a woman's right to choose.

when they qualify their support and tell us they;d like the govt to but in and tell us what medical decisons we can make (under any circumstances)
That is when we point out that this is not about their bodies, and they;d never allow the govt to force the same on men.
all to many men don't get the wholhearted part.

[MellowDem]

167. Well, it's the same with women....

the vast majority of pro-choice women don't agree with abortion under all circumstances, so I guess they aren't wholeheartedly pro-choice. The same can be said for pro-lifers. Many if not most actually do believe it is alright to have abortions in some cases. Considering so many women are willing to put some restrictions on abortion, indeed, the majority are, it's not too much of a stretch to assume that most men would as well, even if they could get pregnant.

Abortion is a sticky subject. Things like aborting because of gender or late-term abortions used as a form of birth control, while rare (at least in the US), are understandably debated. And it's ok for men to have an opinion on it. Indeed, you might as well accept that men have an opinion and respect it, because the fact is that their opinoin DOES matter. They can vote on abortion, and that makes their opinion just as important as women's, whether you believe they should be respected or not.

[bettyellen]

180. you know, your post is full of RW talking points designed to erode womens rights

abortion as birth control? for choosing the sex of a baby? jeeze. have you ever delved into this issue, or is everything you (think that you) know from Fox news?

[MellowDem]

182. Your post is full of personal attacks...

and no responses to my post, which indicates to me you have lost. Yes, abortion is sometimes used as a form of birth control, if other measures fail. What's right wing about stating that? I'm just stating some of the scenarios that a lot of people, pro-choice included, won't necessarily agree on.

[fishwax]

119. I've never been told that

And I've been in a lot of threads about the subject.

[MellowDem]

146. Well that's great...

it's usually in threads discussing the viability of life, or when that happens. Everyone has an opinion on it, and most pro-choice people, including men, don't believe that there shouldn't be any restrictions at all. For example, the whole third trimester thing. I have seen men get told by some on this board that their opinion on the whole subject of abortion really doesn't count, at least so far as that they are pro-choice, no matter what the situation, and that's it. Since their opinion isn't respected by some pro-choicers, it wouldn't surprise me if they don't feel a great need to voice their pro-choice opinions to pro-lifers.

[defendandprotect]

116. Again, I think this is misunderstood -- why would anyone object to anyone supporting CHOICE????

[fishwax]

61. well, the anti-choice movement is patriarchal, so of course it has more male voices

Of course it looks like pro-life males speak out--the leaders and spokes-folk of the movement are largely (though certainly not exclusively) male. Of course, the movement is, fundamentally, a movement to restrict the rights of women, so it's not surprising that women don't always rise to the top or stand on the front lines.

Conversely, the pro-choice movement is about respecting the rights and private choices of women, and part of that is respecting the voices of women on this issue. That means that, while you'll find a lot of men on the front lines protecting abortion clinics, or while you'll find men speaking up in private conversations or when the issue comes up here on DU, it's appropriate that the leadership and spokes-folk of the movement represent those voices.

As for why male *celebrities* don't speak out, which is really what this article is about, many male celebrities (particularly in the film and music fields) have.

It's amusing that this article, on the one hand, bemoans the fact that the male athletes who have responded to this ad controversy--by disagreeing with Tebow's position (Scott Fujita) or even by appearing in commercials for Planned Parenthood (Al Joyner and Sean James)--aren't as well known or as honored as Tim Tebow, but then when discussing the male celebrities who have spoken out against abortion rights trots out Mel Gibson, Ben Stein, Jonathan Taylor-Thomas, Stephen Baldwin, and Kirk Cameron. The star power there doesn't quite compare to those who have spoken out in favor of the pro-choice cause, such as Alec Baldwin (you know, Stephen's talented and actually famous older brother), Ed Harris, Tim Robbins, Kevin Bacon, and so on.

All that said, though, there is definitely value in having well-known and well-respected men as public voices of a campaign to respect women's choices and women's right to make such choices privately, as it can help to reach an audience that might not be reached otherwise. So perhaps the movement as a whole could do a better job of getting those voices out there.

[defendandprotect]

117. Agree -- but isn't Superbowl Sunday one of the most violent days for domestic violence??

A big day of alcohol and brutality for males?

Since when have football players become our moral advisers?

Last I looked football players weren't exactly displaying "character" --

These males are making a lot of money for bashing one another on the field --

is that even the kind of manhood we want emulated by our kids or males in our lives?

[fishwax]

126. no, that bit about the super bowl and domestic violence isn't true

As for football players, some are good folks and some aren't, I suppose, like most walks of life. I certainly don't think being a football player qualifies one as a moral adviser, but I also don't think it disqualifies them.

[defendandprotect]

136. It's that old adage "sports builds character" which seems to not be true . . .

meanwhile, we've heard little about domestic violence during the right wing's

8 years --

Let's see what the Dems dig up on domestic violence during that time . . . !!

[fascisthunter]

62. I'm Not Silent... first they come for Women's right's then everyone else's

these sick fanatics want to control everybody and everything around them. They could give two shits about fetuses or babies... just look at them and their fucked up backward values. They are the same as every other oppressive cult or extremist fundamentalist group you could think of. The only difference between these freaks and those in the middle east forcing women to wear burkhas is that they were born here and not there. They are mentally handicapped obsessive whackos...

[Evoman]

68. Ha! I've stood up at a table full of right wingish church people.

Sure it was fucking awkward, because every single person their was pro-life, and I basically told them (friends of my friend) what I thought on the issue.

And it pretty much made sure my friend would never invite me out with his friends again.

But you know what? Fuck it.

I'll stand up for women every time. A woman's body, a woman's choice. And I'll say it loudly on DU or at a church function or in the middle of a group of rabid pro lifers.

Hell, I've done it before.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2982056

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3912015#3913782

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5786454#5790814

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x734521#744806

Although this one makes me look kinda bad, lol

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2371134#2371173

[dustbunnie]

70. First off, the gallup poll was skewed due to wording of the questions.

What happened was that more men AND women moved into the "yes for pro-choice but with restrictions," over the "yes, in all cases" selections. That's due to the wildly successful but thoroughly disgusting ad campaign put out by the anti-choicers focussing on late term abortion, and leading the uninformed to believe that truck loads of women were murdering fully viable babies. At least one person on this thread has fallen for this erroneous advertising. If you remember, it was used against Obama the summer before the election I believe.

Secondly, as someone else sagaciously pointed out, there are certainly "A-list" celebs who've spoken for choice.

There are plenty of non-celeb men out there who speak up and support choice. I also agree with whoever said that men are often told to STFU here, but this is just a message board and the real work takes place in the real world.

[defendandprotect]

87. Exactly what I think -- rigged poll --

[votingupstart]

72. i vote for pro-choice candidates - and support pro-choice initiatives - it may not be much but its

all i got

[defendandprotect]

76. Find this poll number of 39% hard to believe . . . !!

OTOH, why are we dependent upon pro-choice males to speak for us and for the

right to reproductive freedom?

Is this a battle of football players? The way this is being framed makes us all

look like a nation of jerks!

Women are a majority without even minority representation or minority rights!

THAT's where our problems lie!!

IMO, males are not necessarily looking to support a child for the rest of their lives --

What someone may say to a pollster and what the actual decision might be if actually

confronted with an unwanted pregnancy may be two different things!

And, above all, we are now looking to our sports figures -- football players -- for

guidance on sexual matters?

Why don't we ask the Vatican to provide some advice -- !!???

More farce!!

[dustbunnie]

81. Good post.

You're right about what one might say to a pollster and what one might really vote. People used to fill out surveys saying they didn't watch porn either. You make a good point about football vis a vis women's right to choice as well. :D

And as I pointed out earlier, if you actually look at the numbers, it's a percentage of people who've moved more into the "yes, but" categories, not from yes to absolute no. The gallup poll just shoved them all into the no percentage.

[defendandprotect]

88. Hi -- thank you for your info -- I hadn't seen it before I made my post!!

And, the right wing fetus fanatics have had amazing success with their

"partial truth abortion" campaign --

Basically, they're close to taking a female's right to self defense away from her!!

[defendandprotect]

89. dupe

And, the right wing fetus fanatics have had amazing success with their

"partial truth abortion" campaign --

Basically, they're close to taking a female's right to self defense away from her!!

[grantcart]

84. Because women pro choice leaders are more eloquent

Frankly I think that when any man gets up and speaks about either choice or right to life it is incredibly patronizing.

[defendandprotect]

90. Have to agree with you re what's been going on lately . . .

But men were at one time -- in Congress -- able to perfectly well defend a

woman's right to choose -- and even to defend against the right wingers' "partial truth

abortion" campaign.

However, like most other issues, we have Dems who aren't really there to support any issue

which corporate money doesn't cover!!

IMO -- !!

They are capable as ever -- but their issues center more on whose money will get them

relected.

[KonaKane]

100. Why do you assume all pro-choice men don't speak out?

That's pretty dim on the face of it. I've been pro-choice all of my life, and have never let an opportunity to vocally support a woman's right to a safe legal abortion, slip away.

Sounds like someone is overblowing their personal experience.

[omega minimo]

102. A few men speak up for women's rights issues on DU

[howard112211]

104. False premise.

[Arugula Latte]

190. Care to elaborate?

[varelse]

105. K&R

And thank you for this thread.

[DFW]

106. Where did this come from?

Maybe those pro-choice men, of which I unashamedly count myself, consider choice to be such a basic right of women
as to consider it hopefully unnecessary to repeatedly champion the cause on a Democratic board. If choice is under
attack here, then where, pray tell, is it safe?

My wife, raised a Catholic (now retired), has never had an abortion, but steadfastly raises her voice for the right
of a woman-any woman-to make that choice for herself. I agree with her 100%. I am well aware that some Democrats on
DU (there are some left, correct?) may disagree, but the basic Democratic platform supports choice, and while dissent
is certainly tolerated on the subject, the fact remains that choice is a basic tenet of our party. As long as that is
the case, I see no reason to debate that. I only see reason to bring it up when the right to choose is under legal attack
from forces of the right.

I see a difference between disagreeing with a law or policy, and actively attempting to change it.

[Skittles]

114. ? I've seen many DU men stand up for choice

[cbdo2007]

118. Maybe because women think its a "women only" issue, so they don't even let

us into the discussion?

Funny how the guy seems to be the only one responsible for the birth control and the woman is the only one allowed to make the decision on keep the baby or not.

[Cerridwen]

120. Horse shit. Again. H.o.r.s.e...s.h.i.t. and cop out.

Are you old enough to remember cop out?

Women have always, always, did I say always, throughout history, been assigned the role of gatekeeper of sex. Did I say assigned? Assigned. Not, women have taken up the role; women have been assigned. Wanna know how?

We're the ones called slut, whore, loose, damaged goods, asking for it, harlot, and other fun and sex appropriate names when we make the mistake of getting ourselves pregnant; or enjoying sex; depending on the time and place. We're the ones judged on our fuckability quotient.

"The guy is the only one responsible for the birth control???!!!" What planet do you live on and give me the GPS coordinates. B.e.a.m...m.e...u.p.!

[cbdo2007]

123. I'm not coping out of anything. I'm just relating my experience discussing abortion on DU.

The other persons conversation always blames the guy for not using birth control but then they insist that guys have no say in what happens with the baby. My stance is that its up to both the guy and girl to use birth control if they don't want a baby and if they don't then it's both of their fault and its both of their baby to decide what to do with.

[Skittles]

142. LOL

you live in a dreamworld

[bettyellen]

181. a fetus is not a baby and it sure isn't "both their baby" it's her pregnancy, and her body.

i can't believe the RW idiocy that this topic brings out here. scary.

[cbdo2007]

192. yeah...my pro-choice RW idiocy sure has reared it's ugly head :)

Fine...if it's all her body, her pregnancy, her fetus, her baby...let's take the guy out of the equation altogether. Then if she decides to have the baby she can take care of it on her own. It's all her's, right? No financial support, etc.

Sure, blame the guy for not using birth control and then take him to court a year later for your $$$. I know how it is.

See why us pro-choice men like to keep silent? Cause the more outspoken pro-choice women are about the subject the more likely they are to put all the blame and responsibility on the guy.

[bettyellen]

194. us women can + will not be incubators for men, which is exactly what u are suggeting

if you thought about it for a moment- your suggestion is horrid. and you wonder why people tell you to STFU on this subject.

[cbdo2007]

195. How did I suggest that?!?!

I never said anything about women being incubators for men. The insinuation there would be that men should be able to have sex with women and the women should be forced to keep the baby. If you read my post...and got that out of it....I think you accidentally tripped over the cord of your monitor and unplugged it or something.

Men and women choose to have sex together. It's both of their choice. It's their choice if they use birth control. That is both of their choice as well. If the woman accidentally gets pregnant from this activity, seeing as how it is both of their choice to have sex and to use birth control, then they should sit down and discuss what the best option is for them in that circumstance. This may be her having an abortion or it may be her having the baby. I don't know what's right for their situation and neither do you, but seeing as how they are both in this predicament due to choices they BOTH made then they need to decide what to do TOGETHER. Nowhere am I saying or even insinuating that the guy should be the one who decides what they should do, but if the woman thinks she is the only one involved here then she shouldn't have brought the guy into it to begin with!

[bettyellen]

197. legally making it BOTH their decison is unrealistic and dangerous in the real world

and yes would result in women being forced to bear children and endure pregnancies that were dangerous heartbreaking unplanned and unwanted.
that is why women deserve unqualified support of reproductive freedom- we are talking about basic human rights. men cannot be guaranteed that any woman they have sex with is going to bear their baby if a pregnancy occurs- and that is what you and a few other here are clearly suggesting.

[cbdo2007]

199. Again....you're putting the exact opposite words in my mouth as what I'm saying.

First off, I never said it should LEGALLY be both of their decision. The woman should have the decision in regards to the law.

BUT she should make her decision based on a discussion with the man involved so that she can weigh out all of her options and so that they can decide if having a baby is right for them or if they aren't ready for that yet.

The discussion here was not in regards to abortion laws and who should legally get a say. It is about why pro-choice men are not more vocal on the issue and I was just relating my experience, which you've helped to reinforce, which is that women who are extremely vocal pro-choicers think after a girl gets pregnant she should cut off all contact with the guy and lock herself in a room until she decides whatever she wants to do on her own, with no input from any male figure in her life.

I think that is the wrong way to make that decision and that they SHOULD discuss it with the guy involved at a minimum, and possibly even with another male, her Dad, to make sure she is making the right decision for the right reasons. I would advocate anyone do this with any major decision they are making - check with the person you are having sex with and check with your parents because you will get a different perspective on things and be able to better weigh all of your options.

[GoneOffShore]

132. A kick for your post and an unrec for your detractor.

It would be great if minus hearts were available.
I guess the ignore button will have to substitute.

[yurbud]

129. the guy is the only one responsible for birth control? Have you heard of the pill?

[Skittles]

143. or IUD, patch, sponge.........

that guy is a complete idiot

[Zomby Woof]

127. I have been here over 8 years

And have been 100% vociferously and unapologetically pro-choice. I am a pro-choice extremist.

[Atticus]

135. Simply reject your premise, especially as it relates to DU males. nt

[truebrit71]

148. Being a husband and a father to a daughter I am anything but silent on this issue...

..

[Toasterlad]

164. Infringement of Rights Is Everybody's Problem

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" - Dr. Martin Luther King

I am a gay man who will never father a child under any circumstances. But a woman's right to choose is very much my fight, and I will not be silent.

[Starry Messenger]

198. Thank you.

I really appreciate it too. :)

[Toasterlad]

201. No Need To Thank Me. This Should Be the Common Position On a Progressive Board

Or even a Democratic one.

If people want to argue father's rights and religious freedoms, I'm perfectly willing to discuss it. But at the core of the issue is a woman's right to do whatever she wants with her own body, and that should NEVER be up for debate.

[Swamp Rat]

165. Show me a DU male that is not pro-choice, and I'll show you an ass-whoopin'!

:evilgrin: That is, if Skittles doesn't get to 'em first. :D

[Yurovsky]

172. I like to swerve my car towards the PP protesters when I see 'em...

nothing funnier than seeing a bunch of repressed old right wingnuts dropping their signs and diving for the bushes... those folks are awfully fond of Bushes, BTW... :rofl:

[thotzRthingz]

169. re: "Why do male pro-lifers speak their minds while pro-choice guys stay silent?" you obviously do

not know me... then again, this isn't the only forum which I frequent.

For the record:

I've a wife, two daughters, and a granddaughter... and I want them (and *ALL* women) to be ABLE TO CHOOSE (being informed of both medical and social offerings/options). They should NEVER be TOLD what they can or can not do (with their bodies, and any NON-PERSONs which may be onboard) by essentially, a group of angry white male politicians and court justices!

[dave29]

170. I am a vocal supporter of Womens rights and their right to choose.

I come from a long line of feminists :) My (gay) little brother was President of the Feminist club at his High School. My grandmother a President of Hadassah in Texas.

Whenever a Pro-lifer tries to relate to me, I give them a polite as possible can-o-whoopass.

C'mon, they deserve it.

[Uzybone]

171. I'm pro choice. Been that way since I could remember

but this is the problem with internet blogs. Because Tim Tebow and some other fools have done anti choice ads, therefore prochoice men do not speak up? Nonsense.

[Mixopterus]

175. Could be

Because it's already law? I'm not going to argue the legality of something that is already set as law.

Second is I've been repeatedly told it's a woman's issue and I should stay out of woman's issues, even explicitly told. If pressed I will argue my pro-choice position, but I don't go looking for topics in this area like I do on matters of political philosophy, economics, or ethics. Unless the woman's issue folks are willing to concede that it is a human issue, just like every other so-called "woman's issue" then I would argue for the right to choose like I argue other matters, but that also means that I can talk about feminism and its philosophical basis on an equally valid level. You can't get to cherry pick whether someone's opinion is valid in as large an area based on whether or not you like their opinion.

The second is, I think, why some pro-choice men simply don't touch the matter. It's not that we don't care, but more that we have been told that an entire segment of the human experience is off limits to our knowledge, experience, and analysis, so we just let it be. The philosophy of woman's lib and feminism would have to experience a dramatic transformation and an openness to men and maleness under a merging of the aforementioned movements under a new humanism for the topic to again be considered "safe" territory for men to explore and, yes, defend. Until this occurs it is very dangerous territory for men to (intellectually) tread, as while some women welcome the input and solidarity of men, others still would see this as an unnecessary and perhaps even oppressive development.

[Ganja Ninja]

183. I remember getting in some nasty arguments here when abortion

coverage was being removed from the health care bill. Many here thought it was better to discriminate against women and appease the religious right so we could pass a bill. We're still waiting on that.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

184. Wow, that article was powerful

the gender divide that so favors men in this country upsets me very much

[Arugula Latte]

188. This boils down to men wanting to control women, as per usual.

That's why there are so many fucking lunatic men on the right who "speak out" in favor of abortion. They don't give a shit about the fetuses; they care about controlling women.

[KonaKane]

196. Speak for your own experience.

I am a man and have never sought to control anyone of either sex.

Maybe your experience comes from some deep dark secrets of your own character. We become what we fear.

[Arugula Latte]

200. I was talking about the "pro life" (bullshit term) men ...

I'm hoping you consider yourself pro-choice. If not, you should probably go to another board.

[Toasterlad]

203. Your Post Is Worded Incorrectly.

I suspect you meant to say, "men on the right who 'speak out' against abortion."

[bamacrat]

193. I'm a huge pro-choicer and have gotten into a few facebook arguments about it.

I think men should be pro-choice. It puzzles me why men are against this, and I get that some believe life starts after they pull out. (sorry for that) But I mean it doesn't make alot of sense sense men can not have babies, and it does not affect our bodies. For us to tell a woman what she can do with her body is wrong. It would be like women being against men taking viagra. Sure it affects women after the fact but it is a man's choice to get an erection, he really wants to but sometimes it is not the right thing. Same with a baby, sure women want them but sometimes they either don't need to have them or can't provide for them in the end. That may have been stretching it a bit.

I don't get people who are pro-life but use contraception. Or, what about vasectomies? Women get hysterectomies and their tubes tied for medical reasons a lot of times. I just don't get the idea of telling anyone what they can and can not do with their bodies.