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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 07:00 PM
Original message
My Wife’s Work for Catholic Charities Refugee Center of Washington, DC
Edited on Sun Jan-03-10 07:10 PM by Time for change
My wife, Carol Tavris, began her volunteer work at the Washington, DC, Catholic Charities Refugee Center in 2004, and has been working very hard for them since that time. Her work involves helping out refugees and asylum seekers to the United States from all over the world, which she does primarily by hunting for and obtaining for them crucially needed necessities, such as winter clothing. She also caters events held by the Center.

Here is the mission statement of the DC Catholic Charities Refugee Center:

Catholic Charities mission commits us to caring for those of us who are poor, sheltering those of us who are homeless, and protecting those of us who are vulnerable and oppressed by helping people in need strengthen and rebuild their lives. Catholic Charities Refugee Service Center lives out that mission through our service to refugee families and asylees residing in the Archdiocese of Washington, DC. In serving these vulnerable people, we commit ourselves to welcoming refugees as they rebuild thier lives and families so that we may empower refugees as they seek healing for the past, help in the present and hope for the future.

In 2008 Carol received a Caritas Award for her volunteer work. Here is an excerpt from the article that contains the short story on her award:

Each year, the Caritas Awards Mass is held to honor all volunteers and recognize several key people whose dedication to Catholic Charities has made an especially deep impact in the lives of others. This year’s Caritas recipients were Jim and Joan Sullivan, Joaquin Hangen and Carol Tavris…

At the Refugee Center, Carol Tavris is known for her energy, outstanding culinary skills and bargain hunting abilities. Carol and her husband have opened their home as sponsors for three (actually it’s two, not three) different individuals seeking asylum in the US, as well as led many projects at the center.

I’m very proud of her.

Since Carol began working for Catholic Charities we’ve sponsored and housed two asylum seekers, who have some very interesting stories that I believe are symptomatic of the prejudice that too many U.S. government officials harbor against black people. I’ll describe them here:


Kenyan* asylum seeker jailed as suspected terrorist

I’ll refer to her as Hope because “Hope against hope” is her DU screen name.

In December 2005 Hope was a 32 year old woman who fled to the United States from Kenya in 2002 because her husband was trying to have her killed because she gave birth to four daughters and no sons. She sought and obtained asylum here in 2004. She worked as a pharmacy technician after arriving here, and she hopes to soon become a U.S. citizen. My wife and I took her into our home in the fall of 2005 so that she could save up enough money to have her four daughters, then living in Kenya, come to this country to live with her. While living with us she worked full time while taking college courses at the University of Maryland.

Arrest and imprisonment
In December 2005, Hope planned to fly to Africa to retrieve her daughters. Stopping at her bank to withdraw $2000 for her trip a few hours before her scheduled departure, she was pulled over by a police car after having driven about a mile from her bank. Here is a paraphrase of the conversation that ensued between Hope and the man in plain clothes from the police car, who was apparently an FBI agent:

Agent: Did you just withdraw $2000 from your bank?
Hope: Yes
Agent: You’re under arrest. You’ll have to give me the money and come with us.
Hope: Why? What did I do?
Agent: You have no right to ask me that. Do you see my badge?
Hope: I have to catch a plane this evening. Will I be allowed to do that?
Agent: Are you going to come on your own, or do we have to come in there and get you?

So Hope gave the agent her $2000, got out of her car, was handcuffed, went into the police car, and was driven to Baltimore, where she was put in a small prison cell. At no time was she read her rights, nor was she given any reason for her arrest prior to arriving at her prison cell. Once in prison she was told that the reason for her arrest was that she was suspected of terrorism. She asked if she could call her home (where she was living with my wife and me), and she was told that the only people she could call were her employer and her lawyer. She was also told that her employer would have to vouch for her employment, and her lawyer would also have to vouch for her before she could be released from prison.

Fortunately for Hope, she was able to reach both her lawyer and her employer by phone, and they both came to the Baltimore prison where she was being held, to vouch for her. She was in prison for about four hours before being released.

Attempt to go to Africa to retrieve her children
Carol then rushed Hope to the airport. On her way there, I talked with Hope by cell phone. It was very difficult for me to hear clearly what she was saying because she was crying uncontrollably. But I did manage to hear a few things between her sobs. This is a paraphrase of some of what Hope said to me:
 We have to tell the DU about this.
 The United States could be (or used to be) such a great country.
 We have to impeach Bush.

Hope arrived at the airport barely in time to make her flight. However, as she attempted to board the plane she was told that she was not cleared to fly because of her recent arrest. She had to take a taxi home because Carol had left her at the airport, assuming there was no problem.

The next day Hope saw her lawyer, and he got her record cleared so that she could leave for Africa the next evening. She then flew to Africa to attempt to retrieve her children. The ensuing adventure was a nightmarish ordeal, in which Hope and her children were lucky to come out alive.

I hope to get the relevant details some day, and with Hope’s permission tell the story on DU. Hope is now living in Charlotte, North Carolina, with her four daughters. We will be visiting them later this month, on our way to Florida for a vacation.


* In my previous post on this subject I referred to her as an Angolan refugee – just in case the FBI happened to read my post and had any intention of blocking Hope’s efforts to retrieve her children.


Cameroonian Human Rights/ Election Reform Activist Granted Asylum in US

I’ll refer to him as Paul. In October 2005 Paul was a 38 year old English speaking male who was born and raised in Cameroon and who practiced law there for several years.

In the early 1990’s he began to engage in political protests (non-violent, except for government action against the protesters) against the corruption of the Cameroonian government, especially involving its human rights abuses. His leadership in these activities, including his founding of a non-governmental organization, led to his arrest and imprisonment on at least ten occasions over the next ten years, prior to 2002. During many of these imprisonments he underwent daily torture.

In 2002 he traveled to the United States to attend an International Peace training conference/workshop. During this conference he became good friends with one of the conference leaders, a former U.S. Ambassador (I’ll call him Ron), who was deeply impressed with Paul’s leadership abilities and skills.

Following the conference he returned to Cameroon and continued his leadership of government opposition activities. As the 2004 elections approached, President Paul Biya had been in power for 22 years, and all indications were that the 2004 elections would be no more free of fraud than previous elections during Biya’s tenure. Consequently, government repression of opposition groups intensified, so Paul began to experience more and more pressure. It became so bad that in the fall of 2004 he had his wife and three children move out of his house for safety reasons.

One month later, as he returned from work and was about to enter his home, a fire bomb went off inside the home, destroying his house and almost all of his worldly possessions and cash. This near brush with death was the final straw that broke the camel’s back for Paul, and he immediately began to make plans to flee the country. With the help of his church he was hidden until he could be spirited away on a plane for the United States, where upon his arrival he was imprisoned for lack of the necessary travel documents.

While imprisoned in Virginia, Paul came to the attention of the Catholic Charities Refugee Center of DC, which put him in touch with his friend Ron, who helped Paul obtain the services of a law firm, which took on Paul’s case on a pro bono basis. He remained in prison until his lawyers were able to obtain a sponsor for him (Carol and I) and complete all the necessary formalities, after which he came to live with Carol and me in early February of 2005, pending the results of his asylum hearing.

The Hearings
Following numerous bureaucratic obstacles, the initial hearing was set for early July. Before the hearing could begin, the government lawyer alleged that Paul had lied about a peripherally related matter involving an alleged brother. In order to defend himself against the allegations, Paul had to produce the “brother”, which he couldn’t do because he had no idea where this person was, and in any event it was unlikely that he really was Paul’s brother. The judge gave the court a sanctimonious lecture about how common it is for asylum seekers to lie, and how none of Paul’s testimony could be given credence if he wouldn’t “come clean” about his brother. The hearing was then postponed until October to give Paul a chance to produce the “brother”. I thought at that time that there was no way this judge would ever grant asylum to Paul.

Eventually, however, after numerous attempts by Paul to find his missing “brother”, the matter was cleared up when the lazy arrogant judge finally read the case documents which had been presented to him by Paul’s lawyers.

The actual hearing finally transpired on October 17th. Paul’s lawyers presented four witnesses: Depositions by two physicians, and two live witnesses, including Paul himself, and his friend Ron, the former U.S. Ambassador. The two physicians corroborated Paul’s allegations that he had been repeatedly tortured. Paul’s testimony included the story noted above, but in great detail. He then underwent a lengthy cross-examination by the government lawyer, who failed to make any dents in Paul’s direct testimony.

Ron then testified that during Paul’s attendance at the 2002 training conference he exhibited exceptional leadership skills; that Paul could have, at that point, sought asylum in the United States or simply left the conference and blended into the U.S. population, but instead he decided to return to Cameroon to continue his fight and thus face grave dangers; and, that continuing e-mail correspondence with Paul after his return to Cameroon was entirely consistent with Paul’s stated reasons for seeking asylum in the United States.

Having failed to put a dent in Paul’s testimony during cross-examination, and not eager to take on the testimony of a former U.S. Ambassador, the government lawyer resorted to impugning Paul’s testimony with the following stupid arguments: 1) There was no public record of the alleged fire bombing of Paul’s home; 2) The whole story was implausible because the Cambodian government surely could have found a quieter and surer way to kill Paul; 3) Paul’s story was also implausible because the fire bombing of his house wouldn’t have scared him enough to flee to the United States, given that he had endured numerous imprisonments with torture without seeking asylum earlier.

The judge, who had acted with so much hostility to Paul at the initial hearing in July, did a 180 degree about face of his attitude at the October hearing, as a result of the testimony of Paul’s friend Ron, the former U.S. Ambassador. Seeing the handwriting on the wall, the government lawyer took a totally new tack, claiming that Paul was a bigamist. The judge rejected that argument out of hand, and with that, Paul was granted asylum.


Ted Kennedy on Immigration reform – in the forward to his brother’s 1958 book

Probably no U.S. President was more passionately concerned about immigration reform than John F. Kennedy. More specifically, he advocated for the development of a more flexible U.S. policy on immigration, which would not discriminate by race or national origin. His premature death prevented his immigration reform plans from coming to fruition. But he did write a book on the subject when he was a U.S. Senator from Massachusetts, titled “A Nation of Immigrants”. His brother Ted summarized JFK’s philosophy on immigration in the most recent preface to that book. Here are some excerpts:

My brother Jack wrote A Nation of Immigrants in 1958… No one spoke more eloquently about our history and heritage as a nation of immigrants or fought harder on behalf of fair and rational immigration laws than President Kennedy.

One of his last acts as president was to propose a major series of immigration reforms to end the ugly race-based national origins quota system, which had defined our admissions policies in that era. As he told Congress in July of 1963: “The enactment of this legislation will… provide a sound basis upon which we can build in developing an immigration law that serves the national interest and reflects in every detail the principles of equality and human dignity to which our nation subscribes” …

We would not be a great nation today without them (immigrants). But whether we remain true to that history and heritage is a major challenge. There is no question that the immigration system needs to be reformed to meet the challenges of the 21st century… We know the high price of continuing inaction. Raids and other enforcement action will escalate, terrorizing our communities and businesses… State and local governments will take matters into their own hands and pass a maze of conflicting laws that hurt our post-9/11 world. Immigration reform is an opportunity to be true to our ideals as a nation… Martin Luther King Jr. had a dream that children would be judged solely by “the content of their character.”… I believe that we will soon succeed in enacting the kind of reform that our ideals and national security demand…

With these challenges in mind, I commend this volume. Written five decades ago, its powerful vision still guides us.

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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. 5th Rec. Off to the Greatest with you.
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rwheeler31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Congratulations.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. This OP is greatly appreciated.

Both the work mentioned and your genuine commitment to changing perspectives through this site.

Congratulations to your wife. She sounds tireless and very effective. :thumbsup:

REC
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Thank you -- She is
Sometimes she stays up all night working on these things.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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TexasProgresive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. K & R
I have always been impressed with the track record of Catholic Charities and those who do the work. Thank Carol for me.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
79. I don't have to -- she read all the comments herself
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. thank you.
you and your wife are doing incredible work, and I admire you both immensely. It is an honor to meet you here on DU.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sorry TFC but I could not get past Hope's story
I could feel the sadness and anger well up in me and I new it was time to quit.
But I will say this...that you have every right to be proud of your wife....I could not bring myself to do that kind of a job with out balling my eyes out every night.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. We really enjoyed having Hope around
She was very appreciative, and things turned out pretty well for her in the end, despite the great hardships she had to endure. I forgot to mention that Oprah had discussed having her on her show to talk about her reuniting with her kids. I can't remember why that fell through.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. I can imagine she was.
Anyone in that situation would be grateful for any help.
And it takes a special person to deal with things like that....I tend to get angry at things like that and so I am not fit to deal with things like that.
But bless you and your wife for taking on things like that and helping one person at a time.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. Very, very nice. nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thank you
I remember Hope's story.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. Excellent. Recommended.
Thank you for sharing and thank your wife. My wife works for Catholic Parish Outreach to feed the poor.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kick
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
14. Enthusiastic K&R!
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
15. I'm so glad there are people like your wife.
There are so many people out there who would be independent with a little boost.Your wife is to be commended for her work..
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
18. Carol Travis Thank you for helping those who get swept up in discrimination.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
19. Please tell your wife thanks, we appreciate all her worthy efforts to help

And thank you for sharing. Appreciate all you write about.

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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
20. Since you give her name, perhaps you won't mind my blowing a bit more of her cover.
In addition to her work that T4C writes about here, Carol Tavris is a prominent social psychologist who has contributed in major ways to psychological theory on topics such as feminism and anger.

No wonder you have always seemed so sympathetic to psychology, T4C. I had no idea.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Actually, the woman you speak of is my cousin
My wife has the same name as her.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
46. I never knew there were so many Carol Tavrises in the world.
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dickthegrouch Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
21. And yet Catholic Charities DISCRIMINATE against Gay people with impunity
They are, today, engaged in a massive campaign to repeal the law that allows free people to marry in DC. They make me sick.

Kudos to your wife, but if she's not campaigning against the anti-gay discrimination of CC, she's condoning it, under the "silence is assent" doctrine.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Neither Carol nor I nor the DC Refugee Center that Carol works for discriminates against gay people
or condones it.

Opposition to gay marriage comes from the highest levels of the Catholic church. When the refugee centers provide services to those in need they don't ask about a person's sexual orientation, nor are they concerned about it.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Toasterlad - You NEED to STOP being so Dogmatic....(and maybe get your head out of a dark place too)
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 01:13 PM by Techn0Girl
The world is not black and white. Wake up. There are good people and bad people in all organizations. That's just the nature of humanity. Shame on you for painting this wonderful woman and her wonderful post with the same brush that far less wonderful people deserve. If you'd just step away from your keyboard and interact with actual poeple for a while than maybe you would understand this.

And before you get all indignant and righteous on me let me tell you that I am well within the LBGT umbrella and Catholic Charities saved my life. That's right. Because back in '04 when I became homeless and no one would help me Catholic Charities found me food and shelter until I became self-sufficient again. Did I mention I was Jewish as well?

So I am well aware of the problems with the Catholic Church. Guess what Sparky? The world is full of problems. Try getting out from under your keyboard and solving a few of them rather then putting down this wonderful woman who has done wonderful things for people - unlike yourself.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. LOL. You Know Absolutely Nothing About Me, But You're Quite Ready to Pass Judgment
Sounds quite a bit like what you're accusing me of, no?

You don't know what I do, or what kind of problems I solve.

And for the record, I was not "putting down" the woman. I was "putting down" her employer.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. By that reasoning, anyone who works for the U.S. government (or pays taxes to the US government)
promotes all the policies that the the U.S. government is responsible for, including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, DOMA, torture, warantless searches, the highest incarceration rate in the world, the multi-trillion dollar Wall Street bailout, etc etc etc.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. The United States Is a Democracy, And Is Capable of Being Changed.
The catholic church is NOT a democracy, and the lay people who are members do not - and never will - have a say in the church's policies, which have always been rooted in bigotry and misogyny.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Bullshit
she is doing very important work and giving herself to a community that is much in need of help. The job she is doing deserves accolades. The services that Catholic Charities provides around the country are non-discriminatory.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. There Are Secular Organizations That Do Those Jobs WITHOUT a Hateful Agenda.
It's very nice what this woman is doing. All I'm saying is, it would be nicer if she were doing it in the employ of an organization that wasn't trying to keep homosexuals second class citizens.

You ARE aware that the catholic church threatened to WITHDRAW all charitable services from Washington DC is they passed same-sex marriage, right? Please enlighten me as to how that's "non-discriminatory".
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Just what do you know of Catholic Charities' agenda?
Just how does Catholic Charities discriminate or even help to advance the discrimination of the GLBT community? Is it simply because it has the word "Catholic" attached to it? Are you telling me that gay people facing discrimination are less likely to find help at Catholic Charities than at other organizations? It sounds to me like you're engaging in the same type of discrimination that you claim to despise.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. If You're Saying That I Practice Discrimination Against Catholics, You're Correct.
That would be a problem if I had the money and resources to wage a campaign to deny catholics the right to marry or teach or do other things, or even if I had the inclination to do so. However, I have neither the money, resources, OR inclination.

And yes, my objection to catholic charities is based solely on its being a part of the catholic church, which I consider a hate group. The fact that catholic charities does good things for people doesn't make the church any less hateful.

If you're suggesting that catholic charities is a completely autonomous group which has nothing to do with the main church, I'd like you to explain to me just WHAT charitable services the archbishop of Washington DC was threatening to remove should the city pass a same-sex marriage law?

Any organization that places its bigotry over its altruism is highly suspect, in my opinion.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. I'm talking about the actions of the charity, NOT the church.
Catholic Charities has helped numerous GLBT citizens and doesn't provide or deny assistance based upon sexual orientation. Considering it's a charitable organization, the church's views are not propagated by its charitable actions. Catholic Charities assisting with refugees or putting on a bake sale does nothing to increase homophobia or infringe upon the rights of the GLBT community. The threat to remove services by the Archbishop of DC was certainly a despicable act, but it does nothing to remove the good things that CC has done, nor does it say anything about the mission statement of CC. By supporting CC, you are NOT supporting any negative facet of the Catholic Church, you are simply supporting the many charitable acts it is responsible for. If you have a problem with something specifically that Catholic Charities has done, you might have a point. But it seems to me that you're more interested in spreading intolerance than a legitimate gripe with a charity organization. What specifically has Catholic Charities done that has negatively impacted the GLBT community?
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Catholic Charities Is Part of the Catholic Church.
You, like many other people, can apparently separate the good (catholic charities) from the bad (the church itself). I cannot. The altruism practiced by catholic charities is tainted by its connection to the church, from which it receives its funding. Other church funds are used to organize harassment trips to abortion clinics, run anti-gay commercials and print ads, and send missionaries to AIDS-stricken countries to preach against condom use.

You are free to believe that catholic charities has nothing to do with the catholic church. I am free to believe otherwise.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Nobody here is defending the Catholic Church's discrimination policies
If they withdraw charitable services from the Washington DC area then my wife will find something else to do. As long as they provide them, she will continue to work there.

Do you know of another organization in the area that provides these services?

And btw, neither of us are Catholic.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I Am Not Familiar With the Local Charities of Washington DC
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 02:19 PM by Toasterlad
But I've included a Google search for you, and I have no doubt that you'll find many fine secular charities there.

I'm honestly not suggesting that your wife quit her job, especially in this economy. I'm also not saying that she's not a good person or is not doing good things.

I'm just saying that catholic charities is part of the catholic church, and the catholic church is waging a war of bigotry on GLBT people.

What people take away from that information is beyond my control. Many people are able to reconcile the good that catholic charities do with the evil the catholic church itself does. Others are not.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Washington+DC+charities&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #37
69. If the archbishop of DC
withdrew funding from the local Catholic Charities chapters because of that, the people who worked there and dedicated their lives to their mission would be more pissed than anyone else. CC is subsidized by the Church, of course, but it is an independently run organization. If the Church withdrew the funding from Catholic Charities, it certainly wouldn't receive the support of those on the frontlines of the organization.

I don't care that you don't like or support Catholic Charities. We all make our own decisions regarding organizations we support. But I think coming into the thread in which a person is celebrating the wonderful things his wife has done within the organization and pissing on it as meaningless is fighting a battle just for the sake of fighting. I think it's petty.
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jmrobins Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. Somehow I doubt
That the refugees care about the religion of the people helping them. When you need a warm bed or a coat, you'll take it from anyone who will help you. Thank god there are people like the Tavris'. I'm slightly biased because they're my daughter's grandparents, but anyone who opens their home to total strangers in need deserves kudos.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. I'm Sure You're Right.
If the KKK had a bake sale to benefit autistic (white) children, I doubt the parents of those children would refuse the money.
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jmrobins Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. You're right...
the parents most likely wouldn't refuse the money, and they'd be right not to. If the KKK wanted to spend their time benefiting autistic children, more power to them. But that still has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a religious organization when it comes to charity. Are you comparing Catholics to the KKK?

Also, just because a charity has the word "Catholic" associated with it, that doesn't mean that the organization holds all the beliefs of the catholic church by necessity.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. My Point Is That An Evil Organization Can Still Do Good Things.
That doesn't make them any less evil.

Look, I realize that the OP is a positive piece about a good woman who's doing good things, and that most will think my issues with the church are out of place on this thread. But as a victim of the catholic church, I will always be compelled to point out the organization itself has hate at its core, no matter what good may be done in its name. People who work for or support the catholic church are indirectly supporting their agenda of bigotry. I just want to remind them that there are other charities that are NOT affiliated with hate.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. "Indirectly supporting their agenda of bigotry".
That's a rather bold statement to make. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back up this claim?
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. It's Not a Claim, It's Fact.
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 03:48 PM by Toasterlad
Anything and everything that the catholic church does increases its "brand name", so to speak. While I have no reason to suspect that catholic charities is actively proselytizing among the people they help (but no reason NOT to suspect it, either), the fact is that they are called CATHOLIC charities for a reason. I don't know what percentage of the money that is donated to catholic charities actually goes specifically to catholic charities (I do remember that sometimes there was a second collection specifically (supposedly) for catholic charities), but as the church is the one receiving and distributing the donations, I'd need some iron-clad assurance that none of my money was going to fund anti-gay or anti-women programs before I'd consider donating a dime to catholic charities. But even if the money is completely separate (which I doubt), catholic charities helps promote the catholic church through its very existence. ALL the catholic church, not just the part which hands out soup and blankets, but the part which demonizes gays and subjugates women.

That's not speculation, that's fact.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. OK, so by doing work which benefits the needy and is NON-EXCLUSIVE.
You're saying that it props up the name of an exclusive entity. And just how do these acts benefit the Catholic Church? Going back to your KKK analogy (nice one, btw), if a doctor offers his services to support a child with Autism in conjunction with the KKK's Autism-fest, would that doctor be supporting the KKK as well? If you're unable to see the difference here, that's really sad. And any money that goes to Catholic Charities GOES TO CATHOLIC CHARITIES. Which is, once again, not an organization that funds any anti-gay or anti-women programs, quite the opposite, actually. That's not speculation, that's a fact. Something you seem quite unable to see.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Care To Show Me Those Books?
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 04:15 PM by Toasterlad
As I said, I'd need some iron-clad assurances that all money donated to catholic charities goes directly to helping the needy. I'm sure not going to take "cause I said so" as adequate assurance.

And, if the doctor offers his services as Dr. Happy's KKK Autism Clinic, then yes, he's supporting the KKK by promoting the brand name.

Catholic charities benefits the catholic church by maintaining a visible presence among those who may not be interested in actually going to church (and of course, if the services are provided AT the church, that's a whole other level). There are people who donate to catholic charities who don't go to church, and even if their money isn't going anywhere near the church's bigoted programs (which, as I said, I doubt), they are still directly supporting a part of the catholic church, which supports the church proper indirectly.

If YOU can't see that, it is, in fact, sad.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. You are apparently immune to facts and logic.
There really doesn't seem to be getting through to you. When one gives to a charity, they are supporting the charitable acts and administrative costs of the charity. You keep saying that this money "indirectly" goes to supporting the church, but you've provided no evidence of such, instead saying that you need to see the books. How about you show me the books that my ACLU donation isn't going to Rush Limbaugh instead? How about you show me that my Doctors Without Borders donations aren't actually going to Mel Gibson. If people are to be swayed by a "visible presence" of Catholic Charities, then it is because of the good works that they do. If Catholic Charities is a non-exclusive charity, and they do good works that benefit ALL, just how is it that the Catholic Church would be bolstered when they wish to exclude? Wouldn't it instead make people wish that the church would adopt the same policies as the charity?
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. And You Apparently Are Immune To Rational Discussion.
In what way are Rush Limbaugh and the ACLU connected? In what way are Doctors Without Borders and Mel Gibson connected? You do realize that catholic charities is RUN BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, right? YOU are making the assertion that the catholic church does not benefit directly or indirectly from money sent to catholic charities. And the only proof you've got that all the money donated to catholic charities is GOING to catholic charities is that *I* can't prove that the organization which is collecting the money and doing all the accounting ISN'T spending the money where they say they are?

I guess you think all the money that goes to Pat Robertson goes to help starving kids in Africa, too, huh? I mean, I can't prove it doesn't, right?

Pathetic.

And "wish the church would adopt the same policies as the charity"? Are you kidding me with that shit? There are millions of catholics in this country who swear up and down that they hate the homophobia and misogyny of the catholic church, and yet they donate money to finance those bigoted policies EVERY SINGLE WEEK. Not to catholic charities, to the catholic CHURCH. Do you think the catholic church gives two fucks about what people WISH they would do? All they care about is getting that long green in the collection basket every week. And part of the reason they GET that long green DESPITE their heinous bigotry and intolerance, is because of catholic charities and the mindset of people like you, who think to yourselves, "Well, gee, I don't like how they're fighting to make gays and women second-class citizens, but they do great work with catholic charities, so here's $20."

But hey, you go right ahead and kiss the pope's ring and believe everything he tells you. Why would he lie, right? What does he have to gain? You could ask him yourself if you can find a way inside his enormous castle stuffed with billions of dollars worth of art and gold.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. You have no business speaking about rational discussion.
You're very capable of seeing where the money for charities goes, but I'm including a link if you're too lazy. If your donation was secretly being funneled into the church, you'd have a very good case for a lawsuit and it would be a pretty easy case. I made the ACLU/Rush Limbaugh connection because there's just as much reason to believe they're connected.

And your comment about Catholics giving to the church is another straw man that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. No doubt there are Catholics who give to the church against their best interests, it sucks, but there's not much that can be done about that. However, it's beyond stupid to suggest that by donating one's time to a charitable organization that is completely non-discriminatory would do ANYTHING to support a church that DOES engage in discriminatory practices. Those people making those donations do so because they were brought up Catholic and identify with the Catholic Church whether or not their beliefs coincide. And you have even less of a clue about me than you have about this issue in general. Which is to say, you don't know fuck about me. I'm an atheist, yet your ignorant ass seems to think that I'd be the type to donate to the Catholic Church because of the work of an affiliated charity?

Your comment about the pope is another stupid strawman, so I won't address it beyond that. Are you capable of making an argument that's not based solely on emotion? And by the way, proper nouns are capitalized, as are the first words of sentences, there's really no reason to capitalize every word of a sentence.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=10656
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #65
74. Well, Your Little Chart Certainly Proved That All Is Well.
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 07:47 PM by Toasterlad
Those broad categories of Program Expenses, Administrative Expenses and Fundraising Expenses clearly proved that the catholic church is not receiving any money from catholic charities. Now that I know that they spend the money on such specifics as Program Expenses, I'll sleep easier.

I see that you're another one of those DUers who uses the term "strawman" when they come up against an argument they can't dispute. Good luck with that.

I sure am glad to know that the catholic church and catholic charities are two separate things. I guess gay people can get all the rights they want in DC, and catholic charities will never threaten to pull out, since they're so autonomous, right? Oh, I guess that's another "strawman".

The only thing of interest in your reply was this line: "No doubt there are Catholics who give to the church against their best interests, it sucks, but there's not much that can be done about that."

Um...yeah, there is. They can stop giving money to the church. In this country, no one's FORCED to be a catholic. People choose to finance hate all on their own.

And I don't care if you're an atheist. You're toeing the church line here, so you're working for the pope whether you think he's your boss or not.

And thanks for the grammar lesson. That really helped demonstrate the strength of your argument. Sure I didn't make any typos you use as evidence that you're right and I'm wrong?



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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #74
84. Do you really need to have everything explained like a child?
First of all, I'm sorry you don't know what the term "strawman" means, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't the most appropriate word to use at the time. It's an argument that a person throws out that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand that a person without the ability to argue using logic and reason uses simply to tear down because he's incapable of addressing the argument at hand. Get it? Probably not.

Now, back to the issue at hand, which is your ridiculously stupid assertion that money from Catholic Charities is somehow being funneled into the Catholic Church. You see, what you are suggesting is highly illegal. I'm sure you see no problem with your suggestion, only it means you're asserting that Catholic Charities is a criminal organization and you have even less proof of that than you have an ability to argue. If you could provide something even resembling proof, I might take you a bit more seriously, but as it is, you come off even nuttier than the birthers who, while not having any actual evidence, at least have photoshopped pictures to help bolster their argument, you just have your hate and delusions to help bolster yours. Let me put this very simply, the Catholic Church can provide money to Catholic Charities, but Catholic Charities can NOT provide money to the Catholic Church? Comprende?

With regard to Catholics being able to not give money to the church, well no shit. I've never advocated anyone giving to the Catholic Church, but you can't FORCE these people to stop giving, so you even bringing that up is completely unrelated to the argument at hand (and you know what that is). You are trying to conflate giving to the church and giving to the charity, that's not just a dishonest argument, it's a stupid one.

And you may think that me bringing up your ability to construct a proper sentence is a strawman (there's that word again), but I think you might want to learn to make one before you try your hand at logic. Baby steps and all. You have said nothing so far that has spoken to the strength of your argument, so I figured I'd throw that in.

Having said that, I'm through with you. I was hoping you could see that you made a hasty, stupid comment and would have realized so and taken a step back. Rather, you decided to try to ruin a good thread simply because of your hate. I'm sure you see absolutely no problem with that, so goodbye.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. Rush Limbaugh and the ACLU
are connected in the same exact way that the KKK are connected. They're not. It's ridiculous conjecture and speculation that has nothing to do with the practical good that this organization is doing in DC.

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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. I Guess It's a Good Thing That They Decided to Stay After All, Then.
I mean, it's definitely a good idea to allow so much of the social services in DC to be provided by an organization that will threaten to pull out entirely every time gays get some rights. That wouldn't be at all discriminatory, right? After all, the KKK's all about discrimination, and they have nothing in common with the catholic church, right?

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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #75
83. Catholic Charities
itself never threatened to pull out. It is a separate organization. It does depend on funds from the diocese, but it also raises money independently. While the church could threaten to pull services, if CC can raise money independently for their programs, which is a good possibility, they could keep running their programs.

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TokenQueer Donating Member (762 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #63
72. Bravo, Toasterlad.
It disgusts me to see how many posters are happy to gloss over the atrocities of the biggest hate group in the world. I can't understand why some people are willing to turn a blind eye to the harsh realities surrounding catholics and their reign of terror. One would think that fucking children would be the last straw...
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Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. Now that you;re done bashing the Catholics .... (and you go on ignore too)
you could start in next with the Mormons, Jews and Muslims. All those religions have their problems. We work WITH them rather then be keyboard warriors and bash them.

You are not doing GLBT people like myself any favors. Just like the rest of society, we ignore people like you . Which is what happens right now...
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. Comparing the KKK to the Catholic church, now are we?
Such an ignorant post. Tsk Tsk.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Please Explain Why There Is No Comparison.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. The Catholic church does not have the core values of hate.
The KKK is a hate group created for the purpose of bigotry, hate, and killing. The two are not even close to being comparable. The KKK was created as a criminal enterprise and hate group.

The Catholic church is no different from any other religion, where its teachings are twisted for political purposes.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. The Catholic Church Has Done More Than Its Share Of Killing Over the Centuries
I suggest you do some reading. The catholic church is responsible for some attrocities that would make a KKK member sick.

However, even today's church has homophobia and misogyny as part of its core value system. Just because they're not actively killing women and gays (at least not in THIS country) doesn't mean their message of intolerance and hate isn't harmful or evil.

There ARE religions that DON'T have hate at the core, such as Buddism and the Amish faith, but I'd agree that, in general, the catholic church is not much different from other religions, which generally practice one form of bigotry or another.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. The Catholic church was not founded with the purpose of killing, bigotry, and hate.
It is the politicians and populists who use / used religion as an excuse to do so. Your post was a hyperbole because it compares two obviously different organizations that have nothing in common, and attempts to mash them together.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. I Explained What They Had In Common. You Didn't Like the Answer.
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 05:08 PM by Toasterlad
That's not my fault.

Maybe you should go ask Pope Benedict to write up a sermon about how different the church is from the KKK. I'm sure he could squeeze one in between the one on how homosexuality comes from the devil and the one on why women aren't fit to be priests or to determine what's morally acceptable to do with their bodies.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. You DO know that the second wave of Klan activity (20th century) targeted Catholics
as well as Jews, blacks, immigrants (many of whom were Catholic), et. al.

You're entitled to your opinions, your grievances and your rage (I assume), but you need to find another pillar of evil against which to measure the church.



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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. Yeah, Because Evil Organizations Never Target Other Evil Organizations.
:eyes:

I'm glad the catholic guys are all wearing white hats, so I know they're the good gu...oh, shit. Well, maybe we can convince the KKK to dye their sheets black. Think they'll go for it? I sure hope so. It would suck if everything in the world wasn't completely black and white like it so obviously is.
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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. Oh, Jeez
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 02:33 PM by NBachers
Ignore . . . Ignore . . . Ignore . . .

I Agree With Every Response Posted To This Person And I Start Every Word With A Capital Letter!
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Facts won't get in the way of a good knee-jerk Catholic bashing
Kudos to you, your bride and the Refugee Center.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Yes, Those Poor Persecuted Catholics, Who Only Want To Go About Their Bigotry In Peace.
My heart bleeds.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
68. I'll let my aunt know she's a bigot
She's gay, in a 13-year relationship with her partner, and active in many LGBT causes. Her career has involved, among other things, providing support and services to gay and lesbian teen-agers and their families.

She's also a Catholic, and active in her parish, which is (obviously) gay friendly. She's also spoken out against church policy on gays, and has yet to be threatened with excommunication or being denied communion.

Her choice is not my choice (I find it strange to say the least), and it certainly is not yours, but I'd wager she'd at least accept the choices you've made. And that she finds all forms of discrimination unacceptable; a view you apparently don't share.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Anyone Who Finds All Forms of Discrimination Unacceptable Would Not Be a Catholic.
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 08:01 PM by Toasterlad
The catholic church discriminates. Therefore, anyone who is a catholic is comfortable enough with homophobia and misogyny to remain.

Your aunt is far from the only GLBT catholic in the world. Some GLBT people believe that they can be catholic and ignore what the catholic church does and says to them and everyone like them.

I do not share that belief.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. delete
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 02:33 PM by LynneSin
delete.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
77. Okay, I'm Done.
I'm truly sorry to hijack your thread like this; you may not believe it, but I do admire your wife and the work she does. I just wish that she was doing it for a worthier employer.

I think the church's position on homosexuals is clear, and I find it ridiculous that anyone could try and argue that because of what the catholic church does with catholic charities, their discrimination should be overlooked. That being said, I apologize for the timing and venom of my message, if not for the message itself. Those defenders of the catholic church's unlimited love and respect for all mankind may continue to fight, but I've said all I'm going to say on the matter in this thread.

Please convey my respect to your wife, and my thanks for the important work that she does.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. I believe you -- thank you
But we don't believe that it would be possible for her to be doing this work for a "worthier employer" -- as far as we can tell, there are no organizations in the area that do anything similar.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. You read my mind. n/t
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
66. +1 from a retired Catholic
when will they be opening refugee assistance to LGBT? or better yet threaten to close their facilities in hate countries? like they did to SF?
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Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
54. Way to Hijack a great thread - you go on "Ignore" ASAP
Edited on Mon Jan-04-10 03:01 PM by Techn0Girl
Where you belong.
You're not being an "activist" you're just making legitimate GLBT people look bad.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
25. KNR
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
34. Your wife is an inspiration
you must be so proud of her and her hard work. Catholic Charities does a lot of wonderful work around the country, and it seems as though your wife does as well!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
80. Yes, I am -- Thank you
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
47. Great work she's doing. Thanks to Carol and to you for what you are doing, and for
helping to expose the injustices that are rampant in our nation.

Rec.

Wow. When I recced, it jumped from 99 to 101. My newfound superpowers will be put to good use in 2010.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
60. Thank You and Yours.
What a different world this could be, if more people understood. As your friend from Cameroon, we on DU are very fortunate, indeed.

For those new to the subject: As in Vietnam, Kennedy's policies toward Africa and the Third World did an about face with his successor.

JFK and the Congo
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-05-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #60
81. What a different world this could have been if he had lived a normal lenghth life?
Not just 5 more years of his presidency, in which he would have withdrawn from Vietnam, greatly changed our foreign policy, and even possibly have ended the Cold War twenty some years earlier than it did. But he would undoubtedly remained a powerful voice as a former US president.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-04-10 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
71. knr - with thanks to both of you :) n/t
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