The Moral Ferocity of Eating Animals

[spiritual_gunfighter]

The Moral Ferocity of Eating Animals

by Dr. Andrew Weill


It is a rare human act that is utterly reprehensible. Some glimmer of grace, some hope for redemption shines through nearly all of our efforts.

And then, Jonathan Safran Foer reminds us in his new book, Eating Animals there is factory farming of living creatures.

Perhaps you have seen the film Food, Inc. Maybe you have read the works of Michael Pollan. You may have heard of confined veal calves pumped full of antibiotics and collapsing in their own excrement; or seen the video of bushels of baby chicks, alive and cheeping, dumped into a grinder. Almost certainly, you have heard something about the terrible ways that we now treat farm animals in America, and you didn't like what you heard.

But if you still eat meat from factories -- and, Foer reports, 99 percent of meat eaten in the U.S. is raised and/or processed in factory operations -- you have not, by definition, absorbed the reality of factory farms. If you truly understood the nightmarish brutality of what happens inside these windowless animal jails and abattoirs that dot the American ruralscape, you simply would not eat this meat. Foer makes it clear that factory farming is the exceptional human activity that debases and destroys everything it touches: land, people, communities, and most of all, the innocents at the nexus, animals.

If you protest that factory farming's saving grace is that it is produces abundant, cheap meat, consider that American meat is almost certainly too abundant and too cheap. In 2003, the average American ate 273 pounds of meat. Okinawans eat less than half as much and are the world's longest-lived people, healthier by virtually every measure. Eating more plant protein directly -- rather than inefficiently converting it via animal feed into meat -- would free up millions of acres of American farmland, boosting the healthfulness of the American diet while lowering its cost.



Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-weil-md/the-moral-ferocity-of-eme_b_335811.html

[SIMPLYB1980]

1. Call me Satan.

I want a steak for luch, and for dinner maybe chicken.

[vadawg]

2. rofl, im the same these threads always make me want a steak

even though ten minutes ago i was going to have vege chili for lunch. Also all this talk about living longer, im not sure i want to live longer if it means missing out on the good stuff in life and having fun.... better one day as a tiger than a lifetime as a daytime talkshow host...

[SIMPLYB1980]

I know. The though of a dead cow makes me hungry every time.

Now nothing will do till I have a medium rare steak.

[underseasurveyor]

85. So ok.. a dead cow makes you hungry, I get that

Perhaps it's the terror and torture these animals endure before being sliced up into steaks, and if you truly gave it some thought and if you consider yourself a humane person, THAT should be the part turns your stomach.

I'm not against anyone eating meat if they so choose however if a little more humanity were applied to the process it wouldn't be so horrific for the animals.

[SIMPLYB1980]

107. I know exactly how much an animal suffers.

Unlike most people I have killed and thanked animals for nourishment.

[underseasurveyor]

112. You killing an animal and eating is MUCH different

that what a factory raised animal goes through from birth through death. Apples are not oranges.

[SIMPLYB1980]

124. Not really life is still hard for them in the wild.

But if that makes you feel better that's fine with me.

[underseasurveyor]

128. Apples will never be oranges no matter how much you wish them to be

[SIMPLYB1980]

133. So you say.

Disease, over population, starvation, STD's. They got it good in the wild.

[rd_kent]

157. What do you propose?

How do we make animals feel better before killing them? No sarcasm here, a serious question.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

249. As always, I'm a day late.

:hi:

In case nobody replied to your question yet, this is a great link to the woman who designed the modern, more humane way of killing livestock.
Her system is in use throughout the country and the world. Her name is Temple Grandin.

She was one of the people featured in the book; "An Anthropologist on Mars" by Dr. Oliver Sacks. She's actually the one that inspired the title of the book since she's Autistic and can't really relate to humans as well as she does to animals.

Whether you eat meat or not, she's a fascinating character.

http://www.grandin.com/

[Ignis]

235. "so horrific for the animals"

I like the way you think. :hi:

I'm a vegan, but also a humanist. I worry also about what we're doing to us with society's casual acceptance of factory farming.

"Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace." -- Albert Schweitzer

[spiritual_gunfighter]

239. What it is doing to us is so key in this issue

You can look at it as what it is doing to us as far as how it is decimating our enviornment, but not only that, you have to wonder what it is doing to us to debase our ability to show compassion to another living thing. As you can see from some of the ignorant and offensive responses on this thread, some of these people seem to be a bit bloodthirsty and I wonder if they are sadists. Case in point.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6880737#6883289

[underseasurveyor]

240. Sadly I've seen and heard the stories

farmers and slaughterhouse workers gleefully share and compare with each other. Not surprisingly enough their lack of compassion radiates outward through their families, to co-workers, community, etc. Sickening.

[Ignis]

247. I didn't want to wade into any of that up/downstream, but...

Thanks so much for posting this. Sorry it didn't receive a more thoughtful response.

:yourock:

Oops, quick edit to add:

I'm so proud of Dr. Weil for writing this. He's sometimes been on the fence on this issue, so it's great to see him come down on one side or the other...and it happens to be the right side. :)

[underseasurveyor]

241. Hugs to you

Factory farming is what turned me off meat eating. Seeing it, smelling it, and hearing it. It's awful what those poor creatures go through 24-7.

I've tried going vegan but I haven't been able to go all the way.. yet. I don't eat meat except some seafood and even then very little of it. But there are a few things I just can't, or really don't want to give up like best foods mayo and cheese and a few other things I can't think of at the moment. I don't drink milk at all or use butter (gross) and the yogurt I eat is made from coconut milk. Tried the soy yogurt and it's not bad but I'm not a fan.

I have to remember it's Progress Not Perfection. I would someday like to be 100% vegan but even if I never attain that highest of standards I'm headed in the right direction.

:hi: :hug:

[Ignis]

246. Coconut milk yogurt...mmmm!

I love that stuff. I don't mind the soy yogurt, but the coconut milk one just has a little extra oomph!

The perfect is the enemy of the good. Sounds like you're doing pretty good! :hi:

[spiritual_gunfighter]

25. Try actually reading the article next time n/t

[SIMPLYB1980]

27. I read what you posted.

:shrug: Didn't feel like reading the whole article. I've heard all this before.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

36. You obviously didn't

This article is about factory farms, not the evils of eating meat.

[SIMPLYB1980]

39. Oh please.

"But if you still eat meat from factories -- and, Foer reports, 99 percent of meat eaten in the U.S. is raised and/or processed in factory operations -- you have not, by definition, absorbed the reality of factory farms. "

[zonkers]

72. Ah, the "I feel like a steak right now" crowd is right on time. No one is saying don't eat

meat. They are just saying dont eat animals that are raised in misery.

[vadawg]

73. and all we said was that for some reason when these threads appear the cravings start

its a wierd thing that happens, for some reason the PETA stuff has the opposite effect on me than i think they want...

[zonkers]

74. I think you are insincere and enjoy being a contrarian. I doubt you feel like a steak right now.

[vadawg]

78. to late i already had a couple of cheeseburgers since this thread started

and ive already suggested to my misses that she defrost a couple of steaks to grill when i get home.... so yes its made me think about eating steak.....

[conscious evolution]

82. You have been branded

Meat-Its whats for dinner.

One more win for the advertising industry.

[vadawg]

89. not really i ate meat long before i saw any adverts for it. same as my ancestors did...

[SIMPLYB1980]

104. Guilty as charged.

Yummy in my tummy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozqfOzqMvlQ
:hide:

[vadawg]

111. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm its whats for dinner

[Harry Monroe]

225. Making my mouth water!!

Ain't nothing like a medium rare steak!!

[Lorien]

229. Vile is as vile does.

When a person is incapable of feeling compassion for a creature that was forced to sacrifice everything it has-it's LIFE- for your greedy tastebuds-that person is a a sociopath. Native Americans sent up prayers of thankfulness to the animals they killed, because they understood that those animals had feeling and lives worth living, just as we do. We could learn a lot from them.

[SIMPLYB1980]

231. LOL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6880737#6882607

[Archbishop]

250. wow

That looks great...mmm

[Lorien]

226. Sociopaths all. nt

[Cetacea]

242. Or just stupid.

http://www.indefenseofdolphins.com/book/overview.html

"...Dolphins, then, clearly qualify as “nonhuman persons” with a moral standing equivalent to humans. “Persons” are traditionally regarded as beings who: are alive and aware of their environment; have the capacity for pleasure and pain; have emotions and a sense of self; control their actions; recognize other persons and treat them appropriately; and have a variety of higher order intellectual skills (including abilities to learn, to communicate, to solve complex problems, and to engage in abstract thought). Scientific research on dolphins shows that they have all of these traits. That is, dolphins are unquestionably a “who,” not a “what.” They are persons, not objects or property..."

[Bill McBlueState]

5. just be sure to cook it thoroughly

Factory farms are pretty dirty.

[SIMPLYB1980]

9. I've been eating medium rare steaks for about 20 years.

Haven't got sick yet. I also love deer meat, much cleaner, killed one two weeks ago. Does that make me a bad person?

[vadawg]

10. i got a couple of deer hanging at my buddies as we speak

this weekend we will smoke them and make jerky, i tend to get a lot of deer at this time of year and already had two bears go throught the workshop and put into the freezers... i like my game well cooked but my steaks i like pink yummyyy....

[SIMPLYB1980]

13. Yum deer jerky! I probably won't get to go hunting

again till Thanksgiving, but my next one will be all jerky except for the tender loins.

[vadawg]

17. i like the deermeat aged though my buddy calls it rotten and then bbqed

after marinating in lime, garlic and some other secret spices, grill it to well done and serve with shine, yummy...

[SIMPLYB1980]

26. Ageing deer meat I've heard takes out some

of the gamey taste. I've wanted to try it, but I don't know anyone that does, and wouldn't want to try by just reading about it. My favorite thing to do is to take the rump, wrap it in bacon, smoke it all day and make BBQ.

[fasttense]

19. That deer meat is probably 100% safer to eat than the meat from a factory farm.

Maybe you should read the article BEFORE commenting on it.

Hey, if you like your meat laced with stress hormones, adrenalin, steroids, estrogen and antibiotics, go right ahead and chow down on some of that gassed beef sold at Wally World.

Hunting and eating your kill is probably safe and more humane than a factory farms.

I raise chickens, cage free, hormone free, antibiotic free, happy chickens. I collect their eggs and slaughter them myself. It is the sweetest, most tender meat I have ever had in a chicken.

[vadawg]

20. lol i am agreeing with you in a sense, i just dont think the general pop is going to give up their

cheap meat.... or go out into the woods elmer fudd style to catch their own...

[fasttense]

38. Yeah, so I'm told I can't match the price of my meat to the price sold at Wally World.

You know what? YES I CAN.

I can sell it about as cheaply as most grocery stores. I wont make much in profit, but If I could make it up in quantity, I could easily match Wally World's prices.

The problem is luring the customers away from their addiction to chain stores.

[SIMPLYB1980]

33. I've heard all this before.

Not going to stop me frome eating a steak. Hell I've made livermush and I still eat it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livermush

Livermushis a Southern United States foodstuff composed of pig liver, head parts, and cornmeal. It is commonly spiced with pepper and sage. Vaguely similar to scrapple, livermush was most likely brought south through the Appalachian mountains by German settlers from Philadelphia. Livermush is colloquially known as poor man'sor poor boy's pâté

Shelby, North Carolina hosts an annual Livermush Exposition, which began in 1987 to celebrate the unique delicacy. In that year the Cleveland County Commissioners and the Shelby City Council passed resolutions proclaiming that "livermush is the most delicious, most economical and most versatile of meats." Other towns in North Carolina that have livermush festivals include Drexel and Marion. Sonnys Grill in Blowing Rock, NC is famous for its livermush <1>

It is commonly prepared by cutting a slice off of a prepared loaf and frying it with grease in a skillet until golden brown, much like you would Spam. At breakfast it would be served alongside grits and eggs. For lunch it can be made into a sandwich with mayonnaise or mustard, either fried as above, or left cold. As livermush's popularity rises, it is appearing as a primary ingredient in dishes such as omelette and pizza. The livermush is most commonly (and classically) eaten, however, fried and on bread, with either Mustard or Grape Jelly.

[Bill McBlueState]

35. Meijer, our local, somewhat gentler version of Wal-Mart,

is running TV commericals where they show the ingredients label of a Wal-Mart steak. I think that's enough to make their case that you're (slightly) better off buying from a store that has its own meat cutters.

[underseasurveyor]

92. And I'm betting that those deer died quicker

and much less painfully than slaughterhouse animals. Therein lies the difference.

[vadawg]

114. probuably not a lot quicker, not all kills are clean and quick

some animals crawl off and hide in the brush, and honestly you see a cow differently than i see a cow....

[underseasurveyor]

120. OK let's assume for a moment that the kill was not quick.

Did you then walk up to this deer and begin to skin it while it was still alive? Did you drop it into a vat of scalding hot water as it screamed because it didn't die as quickly at it should have? Perhaps you took a baseball bat to break it nose before killing it?


OF COURSE YOU DIDN'T...!! That is the difference we are talking about here.

And an injured animal that crawls off to die is in shock, feels little to no pain and is not being further terrorized by having it's skin cut off while still breathing.

It's a simple difference to grasp really.

[vadawg]

123. what you think the bear i euthanized as it lay in the brush crying wasnt feeling pain

lets be honest dead is dead, at least be honest about it, you may not want to kill animals at all, fine but for some people meat is a staple of their diet and a lot of people live closer to their meat than you do,

[underseasurveyor]

132. Missed the point

OR what a minute, perhaps you intentionally placed your shot in that bear so that it would suffer and wouldn't die quickly?

[vadawg]

134. yeah thats right, you need to reread that post and see if you understand what im saying

[underseasurveyor]

136. Well did you shoot that bear and then allow it to lie there and suffer

or did you quickly finish it off as soon as you could? Simple question, simple answer.

[vadawg]

137. i thought the word euthanise would have been a clue, the bear in question was wounded earlier

and i was euthanising it, someone had called in a wounded bear on their property so i responded to secure the area. you still cant tell me that the animal didnt suffer as it was in shock, as it was obviously suffering...

[underseasurveyor]

176. I thought that your use of the word euthanize

was sardonic sarcasm. Sorry, I didn't catch that.

Animals suffer, people suffer, there is no way around it and that will always be I get that... But the ways in which animals are raised and then killed in factory farms and slaughterhouses are without a doubt horrific at best.

I don't mind that you put that bear out of it misery and I'm even more glad that he didn't go to waste. It's not the hunting and eating meat that I oppose it is the conditions in which millions of animals are confined, what is done to them while being confined, how they're transported and then the ways that they're slaughtered (if they don't die quickly) is what I have a problem with. The entirety of their lives from birth to death is one of continuous agony and suffering. No doubt wild animals do suffer but for the majority of them not their entire life.

A farm animal would surely welcome the brief (by comparison) burning of a bullet or arrow to the languishing in the odorous cramped discomfort, pain and fear every-single-day for weeks and months on end before being taken to what is quite often a not so quick and tortuous end.

I've lived close to my meat and I do know there is a incomparable difference between hunting and factory farming. There is also a major difference in the mind-set between those that hunt for their own meat and those that raise animals for profit. FF's are indifferent to the suffering that these animals endure and then those at the end of the line that are indifferent and/or take pleasure in painful, slow deaths. Most hunters I know do not take any pleasure in watching any animal suffer. Therein lies the difference!

[vadawg]

178. no probs, we just have a different way of looking at animals, im not going to judge you on yours

well not much :) but i see animals in a different way from you, for me they are food or transport or working animals..

[underseasurveyor]

182. And as long as you treat them kindly, respectfully and

humanely and you provide them with good food, shelter, etc. and you do not subject them to needless suffering and torture I have no problems with that. :toast:

[vadawg]

185. lol we can at least argue without to much name calling

but im sure your idea of shelter and mine are totally at odds with each other :)

[underseasurveyor]

188. Then don't tell me I'm sure I don't want to know

LOL

Just be kind and humane to them.... PLEASE :-)

[SIMPLYB1980]

119. Dead is Dead.

Actually the first deer that I killed was the hardest. I was 15 and not as good of a shot as I am now. Anyway I was hunting with a .30-06 and didn't wait for the deer to get close enough before I took my shot. I hit it in the spine and it didn't die right away. I had to get out of my blind go over to the dear and finish him off with my sidearm. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done, but after we got him processed he sure did taste good.

[Bill McBlueState]

31. No, taking responsibility for your own food is great

If all meat-eaters killed the animals and prepared the meat themselves, the problems discussed in the article would go away.

[RaleighNCDUer]

44. sorry, but my apartment complex does not allow cows. nt

[vadawg]

52. are we also gonna have the veges have to grow their own food

no problem for people like myself who live in the country and have land, but what about the apartment dwellers....

[Mari333]

3. knr. be wary, the ' DONT TELL ME WHAT I CAN EAT!!!!' crowd will arrive soon..

they prefer yelling to actually reading the article.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

24. They have alread arrived

and their comments which have nothing to do with the article have made them look really stupid.

[Mari333]

50. god forbid they would actually READ the article before spouting off.

[Zodiak]

148. And some people prefer to comment about other DUers...

Rather than the topic at hand.

Don't know why, but I bet it is to let "those people" know that you are hostile towards them....right? Perhaps your witty pre-emptive strike will prevent them from showing up to the thread?

Not a great way to foster discussion is it?

This site sure has a lot of DUers who focus more on other DUers than they do the issues at hand.

[tmyers09]

4. I don't think it's about not eating meat, I think

it's about not eating meat from factory farms. Unfortunately, these are far too common, just for the fact that we can get it cheap. I don't see any other way though, besides actually having your own farm.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. Know a farmer, live near them etc

I was raised in SoCal costal suburbia. My father raised almost all of our veg and fruit at home, and for meat, he contracted with a farmer in the Inland Empire to raise it according to his specifications. As an adult, I live in an area with good meats raised locally. Naturally, by people whose names I know.
Anyone can do these things if they want to.

[vadawg]

18. lol i can see the population of New York all having their own farmer, they would have to drive to

alaska to pick up their cow :)

[undeterred]

6. I read this to my dog and he licked his chops.

[The Straight Story]

8. I read it to my dog too, right before I grilled his ass and ate him

:rofl:

[Critters2]

106. I read it to my dog, and, like me, she doesn't understand why anyone

thinks it's necessary to eat animals.

[undeterred]

138. Dogs are carnivores.

[superduperfarleft]

141. Dogs are omnivores. n/t

[undeterred]

144. There's a debate on that...

but they are at least carnivorous.

[flvegan]

152. By whom?

Dogs are omnivores. Mine thrive as vegetarians, matter of fact.

[vadawg]

156. but serious question here, do you think that given to their own devices they wouldnt eat meat

i think thats the point that they like humans are oppurtunity eaters and will scoff whatever they can get their paws on..... or do you believe that their natural state is as vegetarians???

[flvegan]

184. Of course they would.

And any puppy/adolescent dog that comes into my rescue does (no such thing as veggie puppy food...yet). Also, any dog that has any allergy to the veg food gets non-veg food. But, it's a matter of what's best for them and what's best for the planet. They, like people, are opportunistic eaters and that's their natural state.

Besides, every animal that comes here does so from some sort of cruelty. I'm not going to shift that cruelty from them onto other animals.

[superduperfarleft]

154. Do you know what the defintion of "omnivore" and "carnivore" is?

Dogs can eat meat-based diets, and they can eat plant-based diets, just as humans can. That alone precludes them from being solely carnivorous. Dogs CAN "survive" (not necessarily thrive, but I've seen it happen) on herbivorous diets, whereas cats are definitely obligate carnivores.

[Lorien]

230. Check the world record book. The oldest living dog is a vegetarian. nt

[rd_kent]

160. puh-LEASE. Put a steak down in fromt of your dog and see what she thinks then.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

7. Link to "The Meatrix" if anyone hasn't seen it yet.

http://www.themeatrix.com/

Interesting link that also provides a lot of good information about how to help family farms, increase sustainable farming methods and other helpful guides and links.

30 second trailer for one of the videos.

http://www.themeatrix2.com/trailer.html

[fasttense]

11. You all need to read the article before you reply. It's not about eating meat.

It's about factory farming. You know the kind where they play basket ball with an 8 week old live chicken while it screams and bleeds to death.

The kind that cages every animal to the point of suffocation.

The kind that pumps in medications and stimulants so by the time you eat it, it's so full of stress hormones, fake hormones and steroids that you eating more pharmaceuticals then your most elderly relative takes.

Farm factories are so inhumane and the meat so bad for you that taking up smoking would probably extend your life in comparison.

[vadawg]

16. problem is if we didnt factory farm, meat would cost a lot more, in cash and resources

and people want to eat meat, i personally eat more wild game than beef, but if you live in an urban area do you really think people are going to pay more for beef ( a lot more if all intensive farms are stopped) and their chicken.... its not going to happen people like to eat meat...

[fasttense]

29. Would meat really cost a lot more if we all bought from farmers?

I buy pork from a local farmer down the road. He sells it for $2.00 a pound. Sometimes he has sales and I can get some smoked ham for $1.75 a pound.

I raise chickens and sell their eggs for about $2.50 a dozen. I slaughter my own chickens to eat and they cost me about 50 cents a pound to purchase the peeps, feed and raise them. That does not include my time to slaughter pluck and clean them.

How come I can get the same price, and often more, at the grocery store?

I just don't buy that argument that raising meat humanly is just too expensive. Do you know where the savings is in the factory farm? LABOR. By caging the animals, injecting them with hormones and antibiotics, you save the time and energy of the farmer.

Some of us farmers like the time spent with our animals.

[vadawg]

34. yeah but imagine everyone else buying that same meat, the price will go up

as the farmer can get a better price.....

[cali]

49. I live in a rural town that;s leading the way in sustainable agriculture

and I don't know a single farmer who sells meat that cheaply. Not even close. I've also raised chickens for eggs and slaughter. Raising meat humanely is expensive. Worth it, but expensive.

[RaleighNCDUer]

51. 'down the road' for you would be a 2+ hour round trip for the majority

who post here - I don't believe I'm wrong in assuming that the majority on DU are urban or sub-urban, not rural. We don't have freezers to store a quarter of beef. We don't have the time to drive miles out of town to buy a half-dozen free range chickens, or a place to put them when we get home.

Please tell us how, logistically, the 3/4 of the population of the US who buy from supermarkets are going to even FIND, much less regularly purchase from, farmers who sell cage-free, anti-biotic free, steroid free meat. And truthfully, do you want 500 strangers driving up to your door every day?

Unless YOU bring it to US, it just ain't gonna happen. Castigating us for living with what we've got is not how you drum up business.

[unpossibles]

37. But it's not really cheaper, it just seems that way

For one thing, my tax dollars go to make your meat "affordable" to the point where it can be easily over-eaten. Furthermore, the factory farms are literally poisoning our environment and wasting tons of water and food, both of which are expensive but not very evident until later. It's like saying "well, I'll save money by pooping on the floor instead of paying my water & sewage bill." Are you really saving money? Of course not.

As a vegetarian of 20 years, I don't care if people think steak tastes good or what they choose to eat. I do have a problem with meat being so "cheap" that people eat portions which are 3 or more times as much as is healthy, and do so every meal. It affects me through higher taxes, higher medical premiums, and in other ways. I still don't care if you want to eat it, but I am sick of people being so smug about it to me, especially when I don't say shit to them.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

41. Great response

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

[RaleighNCDUer]

53. That's smug calling the kettle smug. nt

[unpossibles]

58. spend twenty years with strangers making jokes and complaints about your diet

on a regular basis and then come back and tell me that. Seriously. I've never given anyone grief for what they eat. Never. I don't even complain when my tax dollars are spent for water subsidies for cattle farmers because that's how our system works.

So... fuck off.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

62. +1 nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

64. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't have posted,

so right back atchya.

[unpossibles]

88. it's called having a conversation

I don't care - I have never once chastised, teased, or questioned someone about anything related to their diets. Never. Meanwhile, I have had people consistently tell jokes, make rude comments, ask how I manage to stay nourished (I don't mind honest questions), and all sorts of things including telling me I am stupid or a food nazi or other ridiculous crap. What's funny is, I don't even mention I am a vegetarian 99% of the time unless asked; most restaurants now have options for me even if just appetizers or salads, and if not I can usually order off the menu, but people notice when you don't eat meat, especially if you are a man. They do.

Many people lately are pretty polite about how they ask or bring it up. It's gotten better. But I have heard nasty stuff from meat eaters for half of my life, and frankly I am sick of it.

Why did I respond to your post? Because you said I was being smug by trying to explain my position and by responding to the other post.

[RaleighNCDUer]

100. You're the one who said 'fuck off' - real conversational.

"As a vegetarian of 20 years, I don't care if people think steak tastes good or what they choose to eat. I do have a problem with meat being so "cheap" that people eat portions which are 3 or more times as much as is healthy, and do so every meal. It affects me through higher taxes, higher medical premiums, and in other ways. I still don't care if you want to eat it, but I am sick of people being so smug about it to me, especially when I don't say shit to them."

So, my eating meat raises your taxes? That IS talking shit. It IS smug.

And you know what? In my 56 years I've NEVER seen anybody look askance at me for eating a salad. You only THINK people notice. If you don't bring attention to it, nobody cares.

Your broadbrush of meat eaters is JUST as absurd as the people who "consistently tell jokes, make rude comments, ask how I manage to stay nourished (I don't mind honest questions), and all sorts of things including telling me I am stupid or a food nazi or other ridiculous crap"; people who are apocryphyl in any case, unless, of course, you DON'T know what you are doing and you are one of those so-called vegetarians who make themselves sick, and LOOK it, by not getting proper nutrition. One of my exes did that - she had a lot of issues starting with teenage bulimia - and she she was one of the unhealthiest people I ever met and looked it. OTOH, my niece has been a vegetarian for a decade, and couldn't be healthier. I suspect if you are getting comments about your eating habits you should consult a nutritionist, make sure you are doing it right.

In any case, your defensiveness suggests that something is not working.

[unpossibles]

108. look, twenty years and a clean bill of health from my doctor tell me my diet is just fine

You essentially said I was being hypocritical and smug because I responded to someone, so I told you to fuck off.

As for the comments, people say shit all the time, and like sexism most don't even realize they are doing it. I'm not saying everybody does, but it really really gets old, so excuse me of being sick of being treated like I am malnourished. As for nutrition, meat is not a panacea; I know people who eat mostly meat and they are quite unhealthy too, and also look it.

Eat whatever the hell you want to eat, but quit acting like it has no effect on anything but yourself.

And if you don't think water subsidies make taxes go up, where do you think the money comes from? The sky fairies?

http://ideas.theatlantic.com/2009/06/tax_meat.php

Reasons for eating less meat range from the personal to the global. Many health risks--obesity, heart disease, strokes, diabetes, some cancers--fall as a person's meat consumption goes down. Most people ask, "How will I get enough protein?" Eating a varied diet is the answer. Plants provide plenty of protein; in fact, spinach has more protein per calorie than beef. The average American diet includes almost twice the FDA-recommended amount of protein. To feed everyone in the world the American diet, we'd need the resources of an extra Earth.

From an environmental point of view, meat production is a double whammy, increasing atmospheric pollutants even as it reduces (through deforestation, overgrazing, trampling, erosion, water pollution) the plant life that would help absorb them. Raising meat animals and the crops used to feed them takes up 30 percent of the planet's land and emits 20 percent of the world's greenhouse-gas pollution (more than transportation). And the volume producers of beef, pork, and poultry crowd their animals into cramped, unsanitary lots and barrage them with antibiotics to forestall resultant diseases; the flow of the drugs into our food and water supplies helps breed antibiotic-resistant supergerms.

Many wars--patriotic rhetoric aside--are about scarce resources: water, land, food, energy. Livestock farming increases incentives for conflict by consuming all of these--and inefficiently. Growing one calorie of meat takes two to five calories of feed--or, in the case of U.S grain-fed beef, 10 calories of feed. Diverting one-third of the world's grains to livestock and away from the humans who would happily eat them raises prices for those crops and brings hunger, malnutrition, or starvation to millions of poor people.

So how do we cut back? Convincing the world's meat-eaters that cattle, sheep, and pigs are our relatives may take more time than we have. But there's always the pocketbook route to changing behavior. Taxing meats with a surcharge that would go into a fund to care for people with meat-induced illnesses would be one approach. And ending the U.S. and international policies and subsidies that have made meat, especially beef, artificially cheap would drive meat-eating out of fashion in a hurry; one source estimates the true cost of a pound of factory-farmed beef at $815 a pound.

You guys sound like the people who defend driving a 5 mpg monster truck because you like to do it. Sorry.

[Ignis]

237. I applaud your efforts.

Responding to unwarranted churlishness gets old, but responding to it cooly takes style.

:thumbsup:

[NashVegas]

215. Learn To Plan Meals, and Cook

A single serving of meat should be 4-6 ounces, but we Americans pig out and eat 12 ounces at one sitting, rather than have a balanced meal.

[diamidue]

217. Exactly.

One organic, free-range chicken can feed our family of three for 3 days.

I abhor factory farms. I don't care how much I can save by eating animals raised in concentration camps. I'd never do it.

[Luminous Animal]

234. A single serving of meat , according to the FDA is 2-3 oz.

Recommended daily requirement of the food to which meat belongs (that also includes beans, nuts, and eggs) is 5 oz. a day.

One oz. equivalents in this group are thus.
1 ounce of lean meat, poultry or fish, ¼ cup cooked dry beans, 1 egg, 1 tablespoon of peanut butter, or ½ ounce of nuts or seeds can be considered 1 ounce equivalent from the meat & bean group.

Thus:
1 level tbsp. of peanut butter or almond butter = 1 oz. of meat.
1 egg = 1 oz. of meat.
12 almonds or 7 walnut halves = 1 oz of meat.
1/2 cup of cooked baked beans = 1 oz of meat.
1 level tbsp. of hummus - 1 oz of meat.

So, if your breakfast includes 1 tbsp. of peanut butter, your lunch a salad with 7 walnut halves, and for a snack whole grain pita with hummus, you've covered 3 ounces before you've even gotten to dinner. That leaves 2 oz of meat to finish out your day.

[NashVegas]

248. Even Better

And drippings go a long way in a good sauce.

(ps - by any chance are you a Jennifer Nicely fan? http://www.myspace.com/jenniferniceley)

[Luminous Animal]

251. Nope. But I'll check her out.

I'm a fan of B. Kliban

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/0140068619/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_all

[spiritual_gunfighter]

21. Thank you for reading the article

I didnt realize so many people on DU just read the title line and comment without actually reading the article. I wonder if they do the same things on other issues.

[Ms. Toad]

46. Yes.

Look at any thread about:

Vaccines
Autism (even when vaccines are not mentioned, the discussion immediately turns into a vaccination battle)
Cell phones and brain tumors

Just to name a few.

[RaleighNCDUer]

45. You go on about this as if we weren't all aware of it already.

what's the point?

[Uben]

12. We hate republicans telling us what's moral

.....and we hate democrats telling us what's moral. Why does everyone think they have to control the lives of others? They want to tell us what to do with our bodies, our children, and our money. They want to tell us how to live and how to die. Why can't they concentrate on defeating their own demons and leave us to tackle ours?
Trying to get humans to not eat meat is ridiculous. It's against our nature and nature itself. There are carnivores and herbivores and omnivores. Our instincts came with our birth, just like those of the lion and the sheep. Those who try to change nature will find their efforts futile.....it is so much bigger than we are, and it will still be here when we are gone.

If we put our efforts towards co-existing with each other, our world would be a better place.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

23. Try actually reading the article before you comment next time

It isn't about vegetarianism, it is about factory farms. I am amazed at so many people on this thread that didn't bother to read the article but felt the need to make a comment about it anyway.

[unpossibles]

43. I think you missed the point

however, I will say that while I think we are omnivores by nature, we're also violent by nature - just because something is "in our nature" such as murder, rape, or other activities which are harmful to us and/or society, does not mean we should embrace it. I'm not saying every human is a murderer, etc., just that those things are all natural and all bad.

We do not posses the tools naturally (teeth, intestines, etc.) to hunt, kill, and eat raw meat do we? of course not.

That said, I do think that animal proteins can play a role in our diets and don't care who eats what. I DO care about how it is done, however, and that's what the point of the article is about. Factory farms are expensive, horrible for the environment, and have all sorts of problems not related to any moral issue. Yes, there are moral atrocities too, but the real problems are far deeper than animal cruelty.


EDITED for clarity.

[AllieB]

14. Vegetarians are part of the problem too.

There is rarely any intelligent discussion around the real problems of farming methods that destroy entire ecosystems to produce monocrops like soy, wheat, and corn. Factory farming is horrific on every level, which is why you should support your local small farmer. Everyone's dietary choices have impact on the environment. Unless you grow your own vegetables, soy, corn, etc., or live in a place where these crops are grown locally, you're part of the problem.

[Uben]

22. Problem?

The problem is, there are carnivores, herbivores, and omnivores. Each has its own instinctual desires, and the wishes of one to dictate to another will do nothing but cause discourse. That is the problem!

[AllieB]

32. That is correct. I was just pointing put that no one is morally superior.

On DU there is a contingent of fanatics who try to dictate what should be on the end of your fork, and there are assholes who then chime in 'MMM burgers'. There is no civilized discourse around the real issues. Everyone's body is different, some people thrive on the vegetarian diet, others don't, despite advice from true believers to 'consult a dietician'. Most people are completely removed from their food, lack a common understanding of farming in general, and through their food choices support Monsanto, Kraft, and other conglomerates that are destroying the family farm.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

40. It seems to me that you are projecting a bit

The intent of this post was not to "dictate what should be on the end of your fork", but about the destructive nature of factory farming. I personally could care less if you choose to eat meat or not. Just because I don't doesn't mean you shouldn't either.

I can't speak for others on DU, there may be some vegan's/vegetarians who want to dictate what you eat. I just thought the article made good points on factory farms.

It isn't about who is morally superior, it is about supporting non factory farming.

[AllieB]

47. Obviously my post touches on factory farming, but there are many moralists on DU

who jump all over meat eaters without looking how they're supporting farming practices that destroy the environment. Look at my signature-I obviously don't support factory farming and patronize my local farmer.

Not projecting at all-you know who the moral vegetarians are on DU. You happen to be one of the reasonable ones.

[unpossibles]

54. sort of true, but most of that soy, corn, etc.

is used to feed cattle. Seriously.

I'd rather avoid this argument because I know it won't go anywhere, but it takes many more acres to feed a human through raising beef than it does feeding them directly through the produce of a field. Also, most vegetarians are already pretty conscious and picky about eating more locally grown stuff, reading labels, being aware of farming techniques, etc., and we don't all eat huge portions of processed meat substitutes either. In fact, many I know barely eat that stuff and prefer to eat vegetables, rice, beans, etc. Many shop locally at farmer's markets (NYC has many to choose from, actually), and try to support organic and other more sustainable farms when we can.

[AllieB]

75. Many well-informed omnivores also shop farmers markets and support local farmers.

Many of the memes about feeding humans and raising beef apply to factory farms and not small agriculture. The studies also reference grain-feeding of cattle, and not grass-feeding so it's not a cogent argument against farms that rely on grass rather than grains. The same applies to water consumption, as a studies reference grain-fed animals and not naturally-grazing animals.

Are the beans and rice people eat produced locally? Unless you live in California probably not. Does a vegetarian rely on convenience food like Yves and Boca burgers? Sometimes, just as many omnivores rely on frozen fish sticks and chicken nuggets. Yves is owned by Dupont, Boca Burgers by Kraft, which uses genetically-modified ingredients. I would rather avoid the sanctimony exhibited on any thread to do with eating, because in the end an informed omnivore and a rational vegetarian agree on more than they disagree. it's when vegetarians take a moralist tone, refuse to admit that actually some people, due to genetics or allergies, do not thrive on a vegetarian diet, that they sink to the level of the other extreme on these threads-the idiots that reply 'mmmm burgers'.

[unpossibles]

99. Oh, I totally agree and apologize for implying they do not

I know some hard-core carnivores who only buy local, organic meats and make other similar choices, and frankly I applaud that choice regardless of diet. My point was just I feel that a lot of people try to paint vegetarians as living on nothing but Garden Burgers and other junk food, or shipped in produce, etc., which is not always the case at all.

[yewberry]

183. Again, the vast majority of monocrops are grown for animal feed.

"Vegetarians are part of the problem too" is a strange claim when 85% of soy is grown for feed.

I think it's likely that the percentage of vegetarians who support small & local farmers is at least on par with the percentage of omnivores who support small & local farmers.

[AllieB]

198. No one's saying they aren't.

I'm just trying to dispel the notion that all meat eaters are inherently evil, and point to the fact that there is hypocrisy on both sides.

[yewberry]

223. I'm not sure where the "all meat eaters are inherently evil" idea came in

but okay.

Please understand that pointing out that pointing fingers at veg*ns as being part of the problem citing industrial ag & monoculture might seem strange to some. Veg*ns are just as likely to be involved in small & local farming, and have made decisions that actually create less impact on the environment that those who follow the standard American diet.

I simply do not see hypocrisy in maintaining a veg*n diet. It has a lower negative impact on a variety of environmental challenges, especially when paired with an awareness of agribusiness and farming conditions.

But really, is it something to crow about? Nah. It's like commuting on the bus. At the same time, though, I don't particularly want to have an SUV driver point at me on that bus and say, "Well, what about the emissions from the bus? There's hypocrisy on both sides."

Certainly it's crummy to judge others and in very poor taste to assume some kind of superiority, but that's not hypocrisy. Bad personality, maybe, but as this thread clearly illustrates, that's not exactly exclusive to any particular group.

[AllieB]

228. Plenty of conscientious omnivores get attacked by the meat police on these threads.

I'm not pointing fingers, but merely pointing back at the hypocrites who believe they have the moral high ground. There are plenty examples of that on this thread.

I don't see how a vegan diet is any better than an omnivore who eats from small and local farms. How is transporting a pound of wheat different than transporting a pound of beef? If the tofu, rice, beans and vegetables that you eat aren't produced locally, your carbon impact is equal to a meat eater.

Yes, factory farming is horrific and inhumane. I haven't eaten factory farmed meat in years. Large-scale farming that produces the wheat, soy, corn, beans and vegetables that we eat here in the US depleat the topsoil, rivers, aquifirs, and destroy entire ecosystems. So basically all food produced today is borne out of some kind of violence. You can't get away from it, no matter how you try to justify it.

[Luminous Animal]

236. I'm not saying you are wrong but I am challenging you to prove this...

If the tofu, rice, beans and vegetables that you eat aren't produced locally, your carbon impact is equal to a meat eater.

[AllieB]

243. Petroleum used to ship, refridgeration of produce in those trucks, water used in big agriculture,

depletion of aquifirs, destruction of species and ecosystems. Do you grow your own wheat and soybeans, or do you eat within your bioregion? Just curious.

[Luminous Animal]

244. Your saying so, isn't proof.

You claimed that; if the tofu, rice, beans and vegetables that you eat aren't produced locally, your carbon impact is equal to a meat eater.

Where's the data that supports that claim?

[Ignis]

252. "How is transporting a pound of wheat different than transporting a pound of beef?"

You're overlooking the enormous disparity in resources required to produce one pound of beef vs. one pound of wheat.

It's inequitable to compare the two once they're both a pound of ready-for-the-consumer product.

Edit: spelling

[Beacho]

28. Sorry the eating plants is more efficient argument is bullshit

Not all land is suitable for growing 'food' grains. The 'feed' grain that can be produced on such land, as well as grass on grasslands, is unsuitable for human consumption and is converted to edible food via raising animals. This idea that ceasing meat production would result in more edible plants is not wholly true.

Also the use of the word 'jails' in referencing pens for animals is ludicrous. Let me ask you to be honest with yourself, you're against eating meat, period, no matter how it is produced.

I notice that the 'Meat Is Murder' crowd is more than willing to talk about the pollution generated by factory farming *only* when it concerns meat production. Yet they ignore the sane problem with factory farming regarding plants, which is just as devastating to the environment. They are BOTH wrong and you should say so if pollution was your primary concern. But it isn't, it's just useful fodder for your anti meat eating agenda.

Let me be clear, if you want to make a moral choice not to eat meat and tell others about it I have no problem with that at all. We also agree on the problems of factory farming and the practices of agri-business in general. You just can't make it about meat eating. Before you flame away, just keep in mind that I am just addressing the argument, not your choice.

Cheers

[unpossibles]

55. more than one study has shown that producing meat

uses far more water, far more land, and produces far more pollution and waste than the food for plant-centric diets.

[Beacho]

76. and 'some people say'

The fact remains that not all land is suitable for the production of food grains. Productivity of edible (by people) food stuffs would not increase significantly if meat production were to cease. In fact, production of edible grains and cereals are so efficient that the market often dumps suitable grain on the feed market at a loss because of the surplus.

As I stated in my above post, this does not include the practices of intensive(ie 'factory farming'), whose wasteful practices also include non meat producing agriculture.

[unpossibles]

98. of course not all grazing land is suitable for crops

but feed corn, feed soy, and other crops like that can be grown on the same land which would support human grade food.

A cow will eat 50-90 pounds of grain a day, and drink 9-20 gallons of water a day. This does not include the water needed to grow the feed or clean the waste (close to 40 gallons/cow/pay for dairy cows just for the sanitation and manure removal).

As for some people say... please don't compare me to FOX news:
https://www.extension.org/faq/28990
http://www.oneplan.org/Stock/DairyWater.asp
http://books.google.com/books?id=5cP-81xDWuwC&pg=RA1-PA604&lpg=RA1-PA604&dq=water+use+per+cow&source=bl&ots=RSF-QWNlr-&sig=k8F496mvNahSHnqVxkCSmngxGrY&hl=en&ei=m8npSsKDE4LDlAfhhdT_BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=water%20use%20per%20cow&f=false
http://www.ec.gc.ca/ceqg-rcqe/English/Html/Table1_agriculture.cfm
http://www.sierraclub.org/sustainable_consumption/food_factsheet.asp
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/effects/agriculture.html
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/20893/Environmental_Impact_of_Food_Production_and_Consumption.html
http://www.epha.org/a/2105
http://www.infra.kth.se/fms/pdf/kappa_rebecka_%20lic.pdf
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/664S

If you honestly think that those amounts of water and food cannot feed a larger number of people than the cow itself would, you are fooling yourself, even taking into account that cattle grade food is not edible by humans. Much of the waste water from factory farming meat ends up contaminated with things like E. coli, antibiotics, and other things which can make humans sick and/or be bad for the environment.

Also, look at the amounts of carbon burned in transporting the feed, water, and cattle, and it just costs more and creates more pollution.

There's no way around any of that, although if you have links to studies showing I am wrong, please provide them. I am not against the idea of humans eating meat, despite my own choices. I recognize that we are omnivores, I just think that our culture places such a HUGE emphasis on our meat consumption - linked to economic status, virility, and many other things promoted by the meat industry - that it's unsustainable and bad for us the way we are going about it. We eat too much meat and ignore the hidden health, environmental, and resource costs of that choice at our own peril.

[Beacho]

208. Not fooling myself about anything

But you did ignore my statement that there are already massive surpluses of *food* crops that often they end up being sold as feed because the market is saturated with the product. Producing meat products is not 'stealing' food out of the mouths of anyone. Those surpluses make your argument about 'feeding more people' moot. Also please learn the difference between 'food' crops and 'feed' crops. Feed quality crops are not suitable for consumption by humans due to their high cellulose content, which the human body cannot digest. As for soy, the valuable oil, in most cases, is extracted before it is sold as 'feed' stock. The majority of soy, of which there is also a regular surplus, that are fed to animals are the husks after the soy is extracted.

As for the carbon footprint, explain to me how transporting a pound of wheat is different than transporting a pound of beef. A pound is a pound is a pound. Before you talk about the refrigeration, remember that plenty of fruits and vegetables have to travel in A/C, so you would have to support banning those products as well. Also as far as diseases, I seem to remember some vegetable products being contaminated and making plenty of people sick. The purity of food is a matter of regulation and enforcing those regs, not dietary choice. Also water is also contaminated from growing non meat products. Dealing with pollution is a package deal and has to do more agricultural practices in general.

As I told the OP, it's clear that some people have a problem with eating meat period. Your remarks about the 'cultural emphasis' explains it quite clearly. Yours is an ethical choice and your bias is clear. Again, I'll emphasize that I have no problem with your ethical stance, you're welcome to it and welcome to express it in the market place of ideas. You'll get no opposition from me. But be honest, are you promoting these facts because you're concerned about pollution and wanting to feed more people or because you just don't like the idea of people eating meat? The only reason I bring it up is because I'm seeing some confirmation bias.

[AllieB]

222. Great post.

:thumbsup:

It was bagged spinach that was contaminated back in 2007 I believe.

[unpossibles]

227. fair enough but point by point

But you did ignore my statement that there are already massive surpluses of *food* crops that often they end up being sold as feed because the market is saturated with the product.

True, but you ignore point is that if we are producing food more efficiently - as well as that I said I don't have a problem with eating animals, thus dealing with the 'waste' efficiently - does not mean we need to produce (or overproduce) as much as we do now. On the other hand, we do as a species tend to grow to fit any efficiency gains we make, so I won't hold my breath on that score.

Producing meat products is not 'stealing' food out of the mouths of anyone.

I never said that and it's not my point.

Those surpluses make your argument about 'feeding more people' moot.

Again, that was not my argument to feed more people, but to feed those we have more efficiently and with less pollution and waste.

Also please learn the difference between 'food' crops and 'feed' crops. Feed quality crops are not suitable for consumption by humans due to their high cellulose content, which the human body cannot digest.

Again, I did not say the crops were compatible with human consumption, I said the land those crops are grown on is. Do they grow strawmen on feedlots too?

As for soy, the valuable oil, in most cases, is extracted before it is sold as 'feed' stock. The majority of soy, of which there is also a regular surplus, that are fed to animals are the husks after the soy is extracted.

I don't have a problem with using as much of a crop as possible, obviously. Btw, nice use of data straight from the beef industry! lol.
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:j5snrKPiayYJ:www.beef.org/uDocs/Factoid%2520Fighter%2520Revisions%252011-03-03.doc+percentage+of+soy+consumption+for+beef+industry&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

As for the carbon footprint, explain to me how transporting a pound of wheat is different than transporting a pound of beef. A pound is a pound is a pound.

You are still ignoring the fact that x pounds of grains and x gallons of water are required to feed said cattle (and even more water is required to keep them clean...), and that those however many pounds of grain result in fewer pounds of beef. Also, the feed itself is transported as well as the livestock in more than one stage of the process.

Before you talk about the refrigeration, remember that plenty of fruits and vegetables have to travel in A/C, so you would have to support banning those products as well.

True, although I also said that we need to start looking locally and more sustainably for produce AND MEAT (did you even read the OP?) and shipping less when possible.

Also as far as diseases, I seem to remember some vegetable products being contaminated and making plenty of people sick.

Many of those problems were due to factory farm run off. The spinach problem ended up being from cattle shit in the water.http://foodpoisoning.pritzkerlaw.com/archives/e-coli-lawyer-spinachlinked-e-coli-traced-to-cattle-farm.html

E coli is animal based. Salmonella can be either, but is much more concentrated in animal products. Neither naturally occur in tomatoes, onions, or any of the other vegetable problems we've had recently.

The purity of food is a matter of regulation and enforcing those regs, not dietary choice.

I agree 100% that our food supply safety regulations have been weakened tremendously - it was one of the problems I have with Bush and the other deregulation cheerleaders.

Also water is also contaminated from growing non meat products. Dealing with pollution is a package deal and has to do more agricultural practices in general.

Again, the contaminated water comes from animal shit.

As I told the OP, it's clear that some people have a problem with eating meat period.

Yes, many people do have a problem with eating too much meat. I know that's not what you meant, and I agree that there are people who are strongly anti-meat as well, but they are far outnumbered by those who find vegetarianism or even a lessening of meat consumption to be a personal insult.

Your remarks about the 'cultural emphasis' explains it quite clearly. Yours is an ethical choice and your bias is clear.

Actually, my decision to not eat meat had nothing to do with any moral decision. It started by me being poor and not being able to afford meat very often, and this was compounded by me working in a restaurant with everything from scratch - cleaning chickens and making stock from spines, making homemade sausage, and all sorts of similar things just made me grossed out by eating and handling dead flesh. It's that simple. As I said, I don't have a problem with humans being omnivores, although looking at our teeth and intestines and lack of claws, I'd say we were not built to have our diet be meat-centric, just as most apes are also not meat-centric eaters.

Again, I'll emphasize that I have no problem with your ethical stance, you're welcome to it and welcome to express it in the market place of ideas. You'll get no opposition from me. But be honest, are you promoting these facts because you're concerned about pollution and wanting to feed more people or because you just don't like the idea of people eating meat? The only reason I bring it up is because I'm seeing some confirmation bias.

Save your condescending mumbo jumbo and try reading what I've plainly said many times. True: I did not stop eating meat because of pollution, but I do see it as an excellent reason to continue to do so. Meat doesn't gross me out anymore, but I also do not crave it in the least, and I know I can eat healthily without it, for much less money. Hell, i eat more healthily without it, and my doctors of the past couple of decades will agree with me, regardless of whether they credit that to meat or not.

Try reading what I am saying and stop being so defensive yourself.

[Luminous Animal]

238. Now, that's a great post!

[unpossibles]

245. thanks. It's a shame that the other person will likely just ignore me

(or has me on ignore already), but whatever.

[Critters2]

109. There are no "factories" producing plants. nt

[AllieB]

126. But there are monocrops like soy, wheat, and corn that are devastating to ecosystems.

There are plenty of mega-farms producing the vegetables you eat, unless you eat small and organic. The studies about the impact of meat on the environment refer to factory farms and not the independent farmer. It refers to grain-fed and not naturally grazing animals. Do you know where your tofu, rice, and beans come from? Do you grow them yourself or were they produced locally?

[NashVegas]

30. Today I'll Visit a Seasonal Farmers' Market

That's set up in one of the tonier neighborhoods in town. I'll buy a carton of eggs, that were harvested in the last seven days. I'll pay $3.50 for a dozen and they'll last me a couple of weeks. I could buy two dozen and, with my skills, have a high-mid restaurant-quality omelet every day for over a week, and suddenly you might not think $7 seems so much.

I know it seems expensive, but I'd rather pay this guy, who personally takes care of the birds, that extra than give 89 cents to a corporation that's paying my congressmen to continually look the other way.

[Zavulon]

42. Yawn.

Pass the steak, and keep it abundant and cheap. I like it the way it is and will not be guilt-tripped out of my choices by such blather.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

59. Yet another person who didnt read the article

Since you didnt read it let me tell you what it was about, it was about the destructive nature of factory farms, not meat eating.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

77. First of all, thank you for the post.

Second, not reading the article past the OP line seems to have become a pandemic illness of its' own around here.

That's one reason that I put the link to The Meatrix upstream. It's not just about eating meat or not eating meat. It stresses the health issues associated with the garbage that comes from factory farms and the environmental costs as well. It provides lists of local farms and producers who actually sell food that's good for you. It tells you ways to help out local people such as farmer's markets. It's a great source of ways that we can all be healthier and more self reliant while helping the environment, ourselves and increasing sustainable resources.

Yes, I do eat meat. So before anyone flames me for being a vegetarian, READ the whole article and note what the OP was actually about.

This place is starting to remind me of a jerkwad that I used to work for.
He would read one sentence in a book and then proclaim that he knew everything that there was to know about the book.

No, I'm not calling anyone here a jerkwad, I just think of that term whenever I think about him.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

83. I will check out the Meatrix thanks for the link

I am a vegan but it's a personal choice, I posted the OP about factory farming because I think it is something that both meat eaters and non meat eaters can find some common ground on.

Vegatarians are not going to convince everyone to stop eating meat and vice verse but I think we can all agree that factory farming is inhumane and a horrible for the enviornment.

The kneejerk reaction to many of those on this thread told me that they didn't read the article and really had no intention of doing so, they just wanted to malign people that make the personal choice not to eat meat.

Thanks again.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

93. You're welcome.

BTW, I sent you PM in case you didn't see my reply. If you get a chance, please respond, I need some information that you might be able to help me with.

[Zavulon]

253. I did read it, but thanks for your

condescending assumptions. They were entertaining.

I don't give a flying fuck where the meat comes from, as long as it's cheap, healthy and abundant. Is it as safe for me to assume you didn't read my post as it was for you to assume I didn't read the article?

:eyes:

[NashVegas]

121. Hey, No Problem

But if I were you, I'd make sure to start having colonoscopies way before my doctor recommended, age-wise.

[Zavulon]

254. Everything's bad for you. That's what we're told. I'm going to take my chances

on movie popcorn, soda, meat, celery, tomatoes, salted pretzels, lettuce and everything else the government tells us is bad. If I had any faith in bureaucratic advisories, I'd be eating nothing but cardboard, drinking nothing but water and taking vitamins to make up for the nutritional deficit just so that I could have really expensive urine to go along with my misery.

[tonysam]

48. Another animal rights thread to hide

These extremists need to be marginalized and ignored.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

60. You should probably hide all threads you comment on without reading

This article was about destructive factory farms, not animal rights.

[Smarmie Doofus]

56. K and R The less meat the better.... healthwise.

So long as sufficient protein is metabolized.


And the barbarism of factory farming can't seriously be disputed.

[MineralMan]

57. Yes, factory farms suck. No question about it.

There are alternative sources of meat, of course, but feeding 300 million people just in the USA alone is an enormous task. It's easy enough for people in rural areas find alternative solutions for meat, since there will always be small-scale operations who don't use factory farming technology.

It's another matter, though, for urban residents in their enormous numbers. It's even more difficult for those who are in economic distress, since custom-raised meat is almost always more expensive than the alternative.

Then there's the fast food industry, which feeds a growing percentage of the population. They do, because people don't have the skills, or the desire, to prepare healthful meals themselves.

It's easy, and proper, to condemn factory farming of animals. It's more difficult to find an alternative for that which can feed 300 million people, most living in urban areas.

Condemnation and exposure of inhumane treatment of animals is praiseworthy, but more praiseworthy would be coming up with a viable solution for replacing that system. At this point, I have not seen any workable proposal that could feed the population.

That's why articles like this, and books like the one it was based on, are pretty useless. They condemn but do not offer replacements. So, the few can ease their troubled minds by paying to buy meat that is raised humanely. The rest of the population doesn't have that luxury.

And suggesting that the nation switch to the vegetarian option is a non-starter. It takes dedication to do that, and often more money, again, than the alternative.

Find alternatives that are practical. Invest in them. Make them work and be seen to work on a large scale. Then we can listen, read, and perhaps change things. Without viable alternatives, the current system will continue, despite the good will of some folks.

[Dogmudgeon]

61. We SERIOUSLY need a Face Palm icon.

Useful for --

Oh-Jay.

Britney, Miley, Lindsay, and assorted Kates, Ashleys, and Emmas.

Balloon Boy.

Pedo Frenzies.

Stupid Republican Tricks.

Prison Rape Comedians.

People Allergic to Science.

Evangelists, Religious and/or Otherwise.

Dumb-Ass Criminals.

and

Pointless Moral Outrages of the Rich and Vacuous.

--d!
When you Comin' Back to the Starbase Bou-lan-ger-IE, Jean-Luc, Jean-Luc?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

63. Save a face palm for those

who didn't read the article. But felt the need to comment anyway.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

65. Is this an attack on meat-eating or on factory farming? Poor title, I think.

I think that it is far, far harder to justify a blanket condemnation of meat eating than it is to justify condemning factory farming.

The OP title does the former, but the article appears to be doing only the latter.

[Luminous Animal]

68. The title of Foer's book is...

Eating Animals. The title of the article is "The Moral Ferocity of Eating Animals. The words "moral ferocity" describe the book, not the act of eating animals.

The OPer could not put the italics in the title of the OP (the don't show up on DU) and omitted the italics in the body of the post.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

71. It is Dr. Weill's title

and it speaks to the larger moral issue to the title of the book he is referring to called "Eating Animals".

[Luminous Animal]

66. K&R

Good article and I am looking forward to reading Foer's book.

[NoodleyAppendage]

67. I'm going to enjoy a nice rare, bloody pink fillet mignon tonight and love every bite.

If you don't want to eat meat, then don't. Otherwise, STFU.

Andrew Weil needs to worry more about lice inhabiting his beard, then trying to convert humans off of meat. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

J

[Luminous Animal]

69. Another person who is functionally illiterate.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

70. You obviously didnt read the article

it is about destructive factory farms, not meat eating. So maybe you should STFU and do some reading before you try and offend people with something completely unrelated to the OP. Be embarassed.

[NoodleyAppendage]

150. No, it's actually about not eating meat. The destructive factory farms angle is just cover.

Obviously, I read more than you, and I'm more familar with Andrew Weil's biases than you are. He's long been on the vegan bandwagon, so don't give the bullshit "its only about factory farms" crap.

J

[SIMPLYB1980]

168. +100

:thumbsup:

[spiritual_gunfighter]

193. He admits in the article that he eats fish twice a week

so much for your false "vegan bandwagon" argument. Still didnt read the article, huh?

[ddeclue]

79. Unrec for more PETA nonsense. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

80. Please elaborate on the PETA nonsense.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

90. Now now, take it easy.

That would require that they actually read the article.
People need to do less posting and more reading before commenting.

[flvegan]

116. That's that poster's dumbass response to every thread on this topic.

[superduperfarleft]

142. "Dumbass."

Funny, that's the very word that comes to mind when I read that one.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

86. You obviously didnt read the article

It isn't PETA nonsense it is about the abhorent nature of factory farming. You may not give a fuck about animals and how they suffer as a result of these inhumane practices. But do you care about the enviornment? If you do it's too bad you didn't read the article and resorted to an ad hominem attack on vegetarians.

[cliffordu]

81. Doc Weil should go have a cheezburger and StFU.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

87. Another idiot who didnt read the article

and wanted to chime in on something unrelated to the abhorent nature of factory farming.

[cliffordu]

91. That's mister idiot to you.

[conscious evolution]

84. This post sure brought out

the gatekeepers and ignorati.
Good job.

[yawnmaster]

94. I love bacon.

discuss.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

96. Hey look

its another person who didnt bother to read the article and react to the title thinking it was an anti-meat eaters rant. EPIC FAIL.

[yawnmaster]

102. Oh I read it. The entire piece. Even so, I still like bacon...

A few questions.
"But if you still eat meat from factories -- and, Foer reports, 99 percent of meat eaten in the U.S. is raised and/or processed in factory operations -- you have not, by definition, absorbed the reality of factory farms"
What does he mean by "by definition"? He assumes that if one absorbs the reality they will won't eat factory meat? an assumption or projection is not a "definition".

"So to grasp factory farming fully is to reject it unconditionally."
Again, he is projecting his own views. Some people don't care and care more about the cheap meat availability.

"The reader is left with a moral dilemma: should I stop eating factory meat and seek out responsibly-raised beef, poultry and pork (exemplars of such farming are the stars of Foer's book), or should I simply stop eating meat altogether."

There is a third option, to keep eating factory meat because the reader does not have a moral dilemma. Again the writer is pushing his moral ruler. Some will not care. Probably many.

And I still love (if I said like earlier, I mean love) bacon.

[underseasurveyor]

103. Alas... effort, comprehension and humanity

do not exist in all people. Shame really but I guess it's a lot to ask for, that everyone possess a minimum of such qualities.

[yawnmaster]

95. question to farmers. What do you do with most of the male chicks that hatch?

And if you do kill them, how do you do it?

[20score]

97. Factory farming is twisted and un-necessarily cruel. And I eat meat. K&R

Thanks for posting, even though it meant taking crap from people that didn't read the article.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

101. Thank you for your reply

As you know it wasn't about eating meat or not eating meat, it was about the cruel and inhumane practices in factory farming. Too bad more of the people that posted on the thread didn't bother to even read it.

[chatnoir]

105. K&R

Thank you for the article. If only more would actually *read* it instead of having knee-jerk reactions.

[skip fox]

110. How many lives to support one life?

And how are those lives treated?

[yawnmaster]

115. I'm sure I have gone through many cows, pigs and chickens, in my life...

and expect to continue, as with other omnivorous (and carnivorous) animals.
How many little fish must a big fish kill to survive?
How many little birds (or little rodents) must the raptor kill to survive?
How many deer must the wolf take down to survive?

[skip fox]

117. "yawnmaster" . . . very appropriate.

n/t

[flvegan]

129. The type of response that you're replying to has cracked me up for some time.

I don't know where idiots get off comparing themselves to predatory animals "taking down" animals in the wild to survive. Yeah, you're a big lion, stalking your prey at the meat counter. You dominant predator, you. And "to survive" always gets me. Not a single grasp of nutrition amongst both brain cells they have working, I guess. It's come to the point where I can only point and laugh.

[superduperfarleft]

143. When they start talking about "top of the food chain"...

...it makes me want to throw them naked into a lion cage to see how well they do.

[vadawg]

159. we are top of the food chain because of our use of tools, so you put me up against a lion

but let me use the tools that man has developed and i can guarentee i will the fight as the lion paws the outside of my armoured vehicle.....

[superduperfarleft]

161. Stick to policing (scary thought) and leave biology to people who know what they're talking about.

Here's a hint: there's no such thing as a single continuous food chain that leads all the way up to humans, that's something you must've learned in fifth grade right before you dropped out. In a food web, lions would be practically right next to humans.

[vadawg]

163. not if im hungry and hes hungry and i have my aforementioned armoured vehicle

you dont get it do you, we are the dominant animal on the planet whether you like it or not, tomorrow if we wanted we could kill every lion on the planet without breaking a collective sweat. So regardless of what you think in the food chain if i wanted a lion kebab it could be arranged without too much difficulty if we as humans wanted..

[superduperfarleft]

164. "Whether you like it or not."

Wow, you've really won this argument, Occifer. Screw basic biology, you're just so damn sure of yourself.

What are you, twelve?

[vadawg]

169. okay disprove what i said, tell me which animal is the #1 predator

which other animal could wipe out others without much effort. lol namecalling really shows your superiour intellect and learning or it could just show you up as being a dick....

[superduperfarleft]

173. There's no such thing as a "#1 predator." That's why it's called a "web."

And if there is, then who's the number 2 predator?

And namecalling just shows my frustration with people spouting ignorance on the internet. It's a real problem of mine, I know.

[vadawg]

180. im sorry but if i want to spend the money i can go hunt anything and everything on the planet

to extinction if allowed, i pretty much say that puts man as the top of the tree...

[superduperfarleft]

202. Alright, I'll give you that. Sure.

So how does that address the ethics of doing so, or the environmental harm done by factory farming?

[yawnmaster]

187. humans are the top predator. What species is the next? there may be more than one...

but it is clear that humans are at the top.
And that is because of a human's ability to create and use tools and to reason. The mind puts human at the top.
With preparation there is no lion or any other predator that would be able to overcome me in my environment.
Whereas you can give a lion as much prep time as it wants and it would still not be able to overcome humans.
This is biology.

p.s. "web" is a name that has been given a system so some can better understand it by analogy. It would be wise not to take such nomenclature literally.

[superduperfarleft]

203. RE: web

Ever seen a gazelle eat a lion?

[yawnmaster]

214. Huh? what is the point? how does whether a gazelle eats a lion depend on nomenclature?

As a matter of fact the web analogy somewhat makes things muddy since there is no direction indicated in a web.
A pyramid makes for a better, yet still lacking, analogy.
Perhaps a network might be better.
Whatever nomenclature or analogy you use, man is at the "top", is primary, is number one, top of the hill.

[RaleighNCDUer]

186. Nonsense.

I've never seen a lion-owned and operated meat processing plant.

Humans are THE top predator in the world. We're so good at it that we spend huge resources preying on each other.

In the food web, WE are the fat and happy spider perched in the center.

[yawnmaster]

189. nice! I like your expansion of the "web" analogy. eom

[spiritual_gunfighter]

194. How many supermarkets filled with health alternatives to meat

are at animals disposal? Weak.

[yawnmaster]

113. This article is implicitly about eating meat. It uses factory farming as the argument...

The author seems to think that by watching a film one will morally change their meat eating habits.

In another paragraph he argues against factory protests by saying we should eat less meat anyway.
"If you protest that factory farming's saving grace is that it is produces abundant, cheap meat, consider that American meat is almost certainly too abundant and too cheap. In 2003, the average American ate 273 pounds of meat. Okinawans eat less than half as much ..."

It may not be directly pushing becoming vegetarian, but it is arguing to change ones meat eating habits, at the very least.

[flvegan]

118. Good article.

He is right though. In the current state of information, too much is disseminated via blurbs and tweets. One could even argue that this article is proof of that, considering the dumbass responses displayed in this thread (though typical and expected on DU, what with the collective fingers in the ears, la-la-la-la mentality when it comes to this). Nevertheless, I hope that folks will pick up this book if it is as explanatory as Dr. Weill states.

Thanks for posting.

[skip fox]

122. Many of the juvenile responses are from those who may in the future

try not eating meat and find they feel better in multiple ways.

I'm glad for posts like this because the walls of the box many are in cannot be overcome without continual reminders.

[vadawg]

125. lol so only juveniles eat meat, id say its usually the juveniles who cry that everyone dosent think

the same as them, and cry when they are disagreed with....

[superduperfarleft]

140. No, going into a thread where people are discussing the environmental impact of diet

and posting "HURR DURR DURR AH LIEK MEAT!" is juvenile.

[vadawg]

147. no pointing out that for some reason these threads always make you want steak is pointing out a

strange phenonomem that occurs when you talk about food, whether its the gag reflex i get when you talk about tofu, or the reflex that some get when we talk about steak... I think its interesting how people react to the food subjects....

[superduperfarleft]

149. Surrrreee.....

You just posted a perfectly innocent response, not intending to disrupt at all. Uh-huh.

[vadawg]

151. no was just pointing out that the thread suddenly made me want steak

not sure what you cant grasp about that, i can guarentee that a lot of other people have the same reaction... same as some people see a picture of the lolz cat and get all emotional and some dont...

[Name removed]

158. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skip fox]

166. Simple reading would have alerted you to the fact that I wrote

"juvenile responses." But that requires some processing, I understand.

[skip fox]

167. Simple reading would have alerted you to the fact that I wrote

"juvenile responses." But that requires some processing, I understand.

[AllieB]

130. I didn't eat meat for over 10 years.

I wasn't better in multiple ways. Not everyone is suited to vegetarianism. I think articles like this are great because they make people think about what's on their forks. If you're going to eat meat, eat grass-fed, hormone-free, and organic. Factory farming is horrific, as is the destruction of ecosystems and forests by monocrops and agribusiness.

[Xenotime]

127. Wonderful article Thanks for posting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. So how about my two parrots? They eat MEAT

after all in the wild they are omnivores too, and grubs ain't tofu.

[kenny blankenship]

181. PUT THEM TO DEATH!

They're murderers and if they will not respect the sanctity of life then their own lives are forfeit. There must be no mercy for them as they showed none to the grubs--tiny helpless baby insects!--which they slew for food. Let all who slay their food be also slain! Only when we have purged the earth of the Death Eaters from one end to the other can a New World be made. From the ashes and filth of the old death-eating and death-shitting world, a New World will be born, finally straight and clean and purged of all Death and fit for the Holy Ones to live in.

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. A week ago it would not have been funny

Tuky passed exactly one week ago...

Now you brought a smile to my face...

This circle of life thing that some folks miss.

[kenny blankenship]

205. I am truly sorry.

I didn't know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

210. No worries, good thing the conure does not read

and I am not readying it to him either.

:-)

[philly_bob]

135. Government is supposed to enforce sanitary & humane factory farm conditions. n/t

[jenniferj]

139. In the UK most supermarkets sell none factory farm meat.

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RSPCA/FreedomFood/FreedomFoodHomepage


I live in a city, so locally produced and reared meat is not that accessable, unless I am staying in the countryside. The only local farm to me is a children's inner city petting farm, which teaches kids about animals and conservation etc.

I am sure some here will still think I am a monster for eatting meat but I buy meat that is free-range or has a RSPCA Freedom Food logo..It isn't that much more expensive either. There was a TV campaign with the likes of Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsey who showed the conditions that factory farm animals are kept in and it caused the sale of better produced meat to rise.

[AllieB]

165. At least you understand and are trying to stay away from factory farmed meat.

Not only are you supporting sustainable agriculture, you're helping the small farmer. Any vegetarian who thinks you're a monster for supporting sustainable farming has another agenda or some deep-seated issues. Rational vegetarians and conscientious omnivores agree more than they disagree.

[jenniferj]

195. I was shown videos of animal cruelty in middle school

We were 12... Though I think the teacher who really was a nutter ( he really was, got suspended for throwing a plate at a ten year old..he had a scary temper) got in to trouble for it because several girls got sick and anaemic by not eating meat. The teacher didn't follow the video up with constructive advice.. For some at that age going veggie means existing on French Fries and garden peas because it is inconveniant to have a separate veggie meal for a mother that has a family of five to feed..(And face it the British always used to terrible at cooking veggies )Especially before the arrival of Quorn and the Linda McCartney range.
I grew up with a friend that was being brought up vegatarian (though she liked fish and missed it), all she ate was French Fries and veggie cheese. Her mother gave her peanuts with her lunch for protein but she always swapped them for the small chocolate bar some else had. She wasn't allowed many sweets either, which is why I am sceptical of those that try and dictate what someone should eat and feed their family.. Healthy food is only nutrious if it is eaten, it does nothing if your kid refuses to eat it.

In my late teens I gave up red meat for years but I have found I am healthier with some red meat in my diet, I am one of those people that needs meat. I am allergic to nuts, oats, corn, soy and other protein substitutes, as well as rice so a veggie diet is very limiting and I loathe lentils and carrots.

I always remember being aware of free range meat, my parents always bought it and they brought me up on whole foods and my father grew up with chickens in the back yard and home grown veggies.

[Occam Bandage]

145. "bushels of baby chicks, alive and cheeping, dumped into a grinder."

Is there something wrong with me that I laughed out loud at this sentence? Probably.

[vadawg]

146. lol yes your sick, but it does sound like a comedy skit...

[NoodleyAppendage]

153. I thought that was how they made McDonald's Chicken Nuggets. Mmmmm...good eatin' n/t

J

[yawnmaster]

190. As gruesome as it seems, I believe that dropping the chicks into a proper grinder is actually...

a humane way of killing them.
I doubt that each one is slowly lowered into the grinder by a cackling operator who talks like Vincent Price.
They are probably dead in milliseconds.

Yes, the image of a bunch of yellow fluffy chicks over a grinder may not be pleasant, but thats all it is, an image. It sounds humane.

[QC]

192. Here's the video--it's real comedy gold.

Enjoy!

http://airamerica.com/green/09-01-2009/baby-chicks-ground-up-alive-at-chicken-hatchery/

[JonQ]

197. Is there any evidence that this a slower or more painful way to kill them

than the alternatives?

[rd_kent]

155. We need meat, we like meat, the population is too high, so this is the only way

to supply the demand.
Before you criticize me for eating meat, work on the population problem first

[uppityperson]

162. I HATE factory farms, why I grow my own meat, or eat from friend's cow.

Factory farms give upfront cheap food. But the overall cost is too large for me. I am very glad I am able to buy part of a friend's cow, and grow my own meat otherwise.

[AllieB]

171. But that's just too logical.

It's black or white on this thread, with sanctimony from both sides. The idiots who chime in "Mmm, burger" are just as bad as the super duper judgemental moralistic freepertarians.

You are lucky to have access to your friend's farm. I haven't eating factory-farmed meat in years-the overall cost is too large on so many levels.

[kenny blankenship]

170. Mr. President: STOP THIS EVIL DOER!

Sure he's killing animals to eat them on the other side of the world, but this is A MORAL ISSUE! Morals don't have national boundaries. We must strike the Evil! Stamp it out!

[SIMPLYB1980]

172. Better watch out for the evil meat eaters!

[unpossibles]

199. what's funny is, if we humans ate the amount of meat chimps do

we would not need this discussion.

http://www.honoluluzoo.org/chimpanzee.htm

Chimpanzee diets are composed mainly of ripe fruits but vary according to the time of the year and abundance of specific food items. They will spend many hours a day eating about 20 different species of plants and up to about 300 different species during a one year period. They do not store food and will eat it at the place they find it. They also enjoy eating young leaves particularly in the afternoon. In long dry seasons when fruit is scarce, tree seeds, flowers, soft pith, galls, resin and bark become an important part of their diet.

They also eat many different types of insects, however termites are the most nutritionally important. Termites are collected either by hand or with tools which are modified by the chimp and specifically used for this purpose. Many zoos, including the Honolulu Zoo, have built termite mounds to simulate this natural behavior of feeding. See our termite mound enrichment. Females spend twice as much time eating insects as males do. Birds are occasionally eaten. Mammals such as monkeys, pigs and antelope are also eaten, particularly by males, but along with termites only account for about 5% of their diet.

They probably read better than we do too....

[SIMPLYB1980]

207. Wow who would expect that I have almost the same

taste in food as a chimp. I guess that means we are related somehow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDFh5JdYh7I

Good hunters.

[unpossibles]

219. you chase down and kill monkeys with your bare hands then eat them raw?

impressive.

[SIMPLYB1980]

233. Yep. Then I drink their blood!!!11!

Mwa ha ha ha ha!!!!

Got to be careful of Ebola though. :(

[spiritual_gunfighter]

191. Animals dont have supermarkets full of healty and tasty alternatives to meat consumption

This article was about factory farms not meat eating. But nice try I guess.

[G_j]

174. is it possible to address the sickening reality of factory farming?

discuss, alternatives, solutions, etc.

It's like people think cracking jokes will make the reality go away.

[chatnoir]

177. Jokes as a way to dull any feeling

As the Nietzsche quote goes "Wit closes the coffin on an emotion."

[G_j]

211. well, the situation is a very real.

great quote, by the way!

[Coventina]

200. I think it's that jokes make them feel less guilty.

Hey, if it's funny it can't be evil, right?

:eyes:

[Ignis]

232. "Rome's a-burnin'? I'mma get mah fiddle!"

No. The environment is not important enough to a significantly vocal minority of DUers that they can put aside their hatred of vegetarianism to discuss solutions.

But I salute you for asking with a straight face! :patriot:

[izzybeans]

175. Grass-fed freezer meet.

only way to go really. Call a friend, split a half.

http://www.eatwild.com/

[Romulox]

179. I have moral qualms about eating meat, but I feel so unhealthy if I don't

I only eat meat 2 or 3 times a weak on average as it is, and I am sometimes (frequently?) disgusted by the morality of it all.

But I seriously feel weak and unhealthy if I don't get a few servings a week. :shrug:

[and-justice-for-all]

196. I can not tolerate factory farming, at all...it is disgusting and evil

If you know a real farmer and buy meat from him, I am deal with that or if you hunt instead of buying meat, I am ok with that as well.

But his shit "confined veal calves pumped full of antibiotics and collapsing in their own excrement; or seen the video of bushels of baby chicks, alive and cheeping, dumped into a grinder." That makes me want to go out and destroy a factory farm!

[backwoodsbob]

204. raised in windowless jails? Why resort to hand wringing?

I can PROMISE you 99% of beef is NOT raised in a windowless jail.

Between where I live and where I work I probably see 5,000 cow every morning happily grazing in a field.

SW Va produces MANY millions of pounds of beef and we don't have a factory farm problem here.I don't know of a single factory farm here

[spiritual_gunfighter]

212. Just because there aren't factory farms where you live

doesn't negate the fact that 99% of all beef production in the US is from factory farms.

[deaniac21]

206. STUPID ALERT!

[Danger Mouse]

209. If you eat meat, it's best to make sure it's local farm raised...

...or just raised on small farms in general.
Factory farms are horrifying, and not just for the animals.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

213. We can thank the spread of H1N1 on factory farms

so you are correct in saying that it isnt just horrifying for the animals.

[Danger Mouse]

216. I love meat as much as anybody...and I really should be better about this...

but I understand the ugliness that is the factory farm, and will not mock people who point it out.

[diamidue]

218. Yes, but

I have always wondered about how free-range animals are killed. Do they use the same slaughter houses/ processing plants as factory-raised animals?

Or do small farmers kill their own animals or take them to local butchers or what?

Sorry if this is a dumb question. I'm obviously a City girl...

[AllieB]

221. It depends on the farm.

Most of them either kill on site or use smaller processing plants. ask the next time you're at a butcher or farmer's market.

[keep_it_real]

220. I stop eating animals in my teens - to each their own

[bigwillq]

224. I love meat.

It tastes good. I like veggies and fruit. They taste good. I eat what I like. The food industry is all screwed up, so it really doesn't matter. Crop farms, too. I will continue to eat what I want to. I think I have a pretty decent balance between meat products and fruits and veggies, rice, beans, etc...