KIAH Houston: Precinct 6 Suspends Taser Use; Mother Of Victim Speaks Out Against Tasers

[Heidi]

October 22, 2009

On Thursday, Harris County Precinct 6 Constable Victor Trevino suspended his deputies from carrying or using Tasers. It followed Wednesday's announcement by Taser International warning law enforcement not to stun a person in the chest because it may cause an "adverse cardiac event."

For 77-year-old Shirley Nagel, the announcement comes as no surprise.

"What took them so long," she said from the living room of her Southwest Houston home.

Five years ago, her son, Joel Don Casey, died after he was stunned 18 times by a Taser, a memory that has haunted Nagel since.

"Other than my son saying, please don't kill me, I am your friend, those are the last words I heard him say," said Nagel.

<snip>

Read more

[Pithlet]

1. May more follow.

They should be banned.

[PM Martin]

2. When those probes hit one's chest.

can the force of the hit be enough to send the heart into defibrillation.
Each probe weights a few ounces. They travel at nearly 150 miles per hour.

[47of74]

3. Tasers - the lazy person's approach to law enforcement

Tasers are the tools of a lazy law enforcement who doesn't want to work up a sweat due to all the donuts they shove in their faces every day.

[Taitertots]

4. Don't bother to mention that her son was a violent schizophrenic off his medicine

And that he was tazed for fighting with the police.

[Heidi]

5. Please feel free to start a thread including the parts I omitted due to

DU copyright rules. :hi:

Do not post entire copyrighted articles. If you wish to reference an article, provide a brief excerpt and include a link to the original source. Generally, excerpts should not exceed three or four paragraphs.

[Taitertots]

6. You don't think it is disingenuous to post that article and not mention

That he was a violent paranoid schizophrenic who was attacking the police when they tasered him. Half your "paragraphs" are one sentence. I'm sure the one sentence explaining that he was violent and mentally disturbed wouldn't have put you too far over the limit.

[Heidi]

8. No, I don't think it's disingenuous. I posted the first five paragraphs and the link.

It sounds to me like you're proposing that I creatively edit my OP to reflect your position. I decline.

[Pithlet]

9. As if that information changes anything.

It's not okay that he's dead from a defective device that the police shouldn't have had at their disposal to begin with. Not even violent and mentally disturbed people should be killed by these things. They were supposed to be non-lethal.

[Heidi]

10. But, but, but...

what if nobody follows the link and sees what a huge threat to society this mentally ill guy was and how justified the cops were in killing him for failing to comply????????????? :sarcasm:

:clutching my pearls:

[Chemisse]

15. Finally somebody in law enforcement is stopping to think it over!

I think tasers have a function if used properly. But they have been misused.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. And the misuse ought to be punished.

[Chemisse]

58. Yes, in extreme cases like this one

But what really needs to happen is for there to be specific policies and training so cops are aware of how to use the tasers in a way that minimizes risks. And there needs to be a consequence for the cop that zaps somebody 18 times.

[Chemisse]

14. Surely worthy of an instant death penalty - nt

[Taitertots]

17. Keep your hyperbole to yourself

It is without question NOT the death penalty.

It was a deranged violent person fighting with the police and regrettably dying as a result. You can't puff this up into extra judicial murder.

[TexasObserver]

21. There's a killer on the road ... his brain is squirmin' like a toad.

More like that?

[fascisthunter]

31. lol

[PA Democrat]

22. 18 times. They tased him 18 times.

Keep spinning excuses for such blatant abuse.

[Taitertots]

24. Was he still fighting after 17?

There you go, keep spinning excuses for fighting with the police.

[PA Democrat]

25. "An autopsy later ruled his death a homicide."

Quoted from the article.


Keep spinning. Or is there some other definition of homocide in your sad little world?

[Taitertots]

30. So they are in jail for murder?

No, because the courts didn't think it was.

[PA Democrat]

35. So because a grand jury decided not to press charges, their actions were acceptable?

A jury in the wrongful death case decided otherwise.

[PA Democrat]

53. Criminal charges are rarely brought against police officers

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-17-Copmisconduct_N.htm
<snip>

David Burnham, the co-founder of the TRAC (Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse) database, says prosecutions appear to be increasing, but "more important" are the numbers of cases prosecutors decline.

Last year, 96% of cases referred for prosecution by investigative agencies were declined.

In 2005, 98% were declined, a rate that has remained "extremely high" under every administration dating to President Carter, according to a TRAC report.

The high refusal rates, say Burnham and law enforcement analysts, result in part from the extraordinary difficulty in prosecuting abuse cases. Juries are conditioned to believe cops, and victims' credibility is often challenged.

"When police are accused of wrongdoing, the world is turned upside down," Harris says. "In some cases, it may be impossible for (juries) to make the adjustment."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-17-Copmisconduct_N.htm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

48. Homocide. Can we stop the gay bashing?

[PA Democrat]

51. I apologioze for the typo.

It was not gay bashing.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

67. No worries. Just wanted to make sure. I apologize for the assumption.

[Chemisse]

55. Yikes! How did you spot that?

I looked through his posts several times before I finally found 'homocide.' You must be supersensitive.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. Some cops use the term to describe murders of gay people.

Law and Order had an episode on it one time. It was pretty glaring to me, but I proofread a lot of stuff.

[Chemisse]

61. omg - I had no idea

I'm glad you pointed it out then.

[Chemisse]

56. He did something bad and the officers killed him.

I'm sure nobody meant to kill the guy, but he did die as a result of their (his?) actions. It's just like speeding in a car and inadvertently killing someone. You didn't mean to, but you did engage in dangerous activity which could be expected to result in a death.

So you face negligent homicide charges - unless you are a cop, of course.

[Heidi]

7. Self-delete. Wrong place. (nt)

[TexasObserver]

11. "please don't kill me, I am your friend"

How can they kill a guy saying that?!

[Heidi]

12. He didn't comply

or defer, capital offenses in some jurisdictions.

[TexasObserver]

13. Automatic loss of the right to carry weapons should follow such incidents.

The police involved in killing suspects, detainees or prisoners should have their right to carry weapons suspended automatically any time such an event occurs. All cops involved should lose their right to carry for a year, and if it's determined that they acted unwisely, then they lose the right to carry forever.

If we want cops to be more responsible, we have to put on the line the thing they prize most: their ability to carry weapons.

[Taitertots]

16. They already risk their lives and everything they own (prison and civil suits)

If you can't prosecute and can't sue then they shouldn't be punished outside of the legal system.

[TexasObserver]

18. Do I need to repeat myself?

[Taitertots]

19. Are you going to continue to advocate extra judicial punishments without a trial?

[TexasObserver]

20. Do you think if you keep asking me, I'll let you have that puppy?

What possible reason could you have to believe I've changed my mind?

[Taitertots]

33. Here are your words

"The police involved in killing suspects, detainees or prisoners should have their right to carry weapons suspended automatically any time such an event occurs. All cops involved should lose their right to carry for a year, and if it's determined that they acted unwisely, then they lose the right to carry forever."

At what point is there anything resembling fair processes in that. Why not leave it to the courts? Instead of creating arbitrary punishments that make no effort to consider if the action even warrants punishment. They already lose the right to carry if they become felons, in addition to going to jail.

So when you say "lose the right to carry" you mean fire them. Don't dance around, we both know that is going to cause them to lose their jobs and not be able to get a new one in their field.

[TexasObserver]

37. Which part of "yeah, that's what I said!" can you not understand?

Yes. That's right. When they kill someone, take away their weapons, and don't give them back until you're certain they're not a further danger to society.

You see, it's a bad thing when a cop kills a suspect or a prisoner. Most of us think that shouldn't happen, so when it does, we need to rein in the cops and make sure they're not just rabid dogs off their leash. Like dogs that kill, we need to make sure they aren't a risk to do it again.

Cops who shoot people are a very small number. The impact would be minimal on police operations. And there would be a hell of a lot fewer dead or badly injured prisoners if Barney Fife had to give up his gun if he hurts a prisoner.

Another idea: If an officer discharges a taser, later he must be tased as many times as he tased his prisoner. That might keep them from using it so much. These guys are way too cavalier about using tasers, and we need to slap them into line.

[Taitertots]

41. Now you are changing it

You said they should automatically lose their right to carry for one year. Now it is once you are certain they have met an arbitrary standard.

If a cop kills a prisoner or suspect we have courts to decide if what they did warrants punishment. If they are found guilty of a felony they lose the right to own firearms and go to jail. Why add an arbitrary and capricious process?

[TexasObserver]

45. No, I'm not. And your nagging isn't going to change anything.

Is there someone in your life who actually gives in when you nag incessantly?

You might want to try nagging them, because I don't feed nags by honoring their weak ass questions.

[Taitertots]

50. You said these exact words

"All cops involved should lose their right to carry for a year"

Is there someone in your life that puts up with you saying one thing and then another totally different thing five seconds later. Then your abject refusal to explain what you believe or why you believe it. Why even go on a discussion board if you are just going to get crotchety when people want to discuss things. We can't have a discussion if you refuse to even explain what you advocate.

Is it automatically a year or until they meet an arbitrary standard?

[TexasObserver]

66. Waaaaahhhhh! Waaaaaahhhh.

You'll cry yourself to sleep.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

69. So that would be arbitrary standard! Thanks for playing.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

68. Cops that kill suspects aren't typically a danger to society. Those that are should face trial.

The small % of police shootings that are unjustified can be dealt with by the courts.

[Heidi]

26. They're paid to take those risks and aren't conscripted. Besides pay, benefits include hero worship

by folks like you.

[Pavulon]

29. And to notify next of kin when a DWI jerk kills folks like you

not like that job is all kittens and fuzzy socks.

[TexasObserver]

38. Cops are cops because it appeals to their need for authority.

If they wanted to serve society, they'd be doing something that didn't involve constantly treating citizens like shit.

[Echo In Light]

39. As my father is fond of saying; those who want to be a cop shouldn't be a cop

[TexasObserver]

42. Very true.

In some communities, some of the thugs that don't go to prison become cops.

That's just a fact of life. We've all known someone who became a cop, when everyone who knew him knew that giving him that kind of power was a huge mistake.

[Pavulon]

40. Must be your cops. Never have that problem here

of course I am not out breaking the law and fighting the man either.

[TexasObserver]

43. Well, your perspective on cops is very contorted.

With your nose pressed so close to their ass, that is.

[Pavulon]

46. Yeah, in small towns we all tend to meet

at the store, church, etc. So they aren't out there going wild. We also dont have a massive problem with crime. People burn furniture after UNC wins basketball games. Short of people who want to fight, the police generally take the shit in stride.

I guess where you live plays a role in that equation.

Cary on fighting the man while I enjoy life.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

70. and clearly your's is also. Probably from the view behind the bars.

[TexasObserver]

71. You've got to stay out of your medical inventory.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. We don't carry any narcotics.

[TexasObserver]

73. Have you already taken them all?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

74. We have never carried narcotics.

[PM Martin]

75. True.

[eomer]

23. Houston is leading the way?

It's not exactly the most progressive place. Are there other cities where they have already banned or at least suspended Taser use?

[TexasObserver]

27. This is an action by ONE Constable, an older Democrat.

Trevino is doing this. He's one of several elected constables in Harris County, the county where Houston is located. So it's a guy who has constables for about 25% of the county. The Houston Police, other municipal police, and sheriff's department are not affected by this action.

[elehhhhna]

63. only in a sense that Houston has the highest record for the overuse of tasers

That tidbit came out a few days ago. Our cops LOVE to tase the cr@p out of people.

[Pavulon]

28. Alternate technology..

[fascisthunter]

32. tasers should be banned everywhere.

[Pavulon]

34. The replaced the spiral fracture and GSW

in violent conflicts. Both hurt more than a taser and both present a bigger danger to me. The guy in the background who gets hit by stray rounds when the cops shoot some ass who they would have tazed.

[Echo In Light]

36. +1

[Ignis]

44. Pain compliance is torture and has no place in the USA.

There has been a systematic failure of training in appropriate taser use across America, in many police and sheriff's departments. We the People need to suspend taser use by these departments until they can prove to us that training standards have improved.

This is not a feudalistic society: Law enforcement officers work for us. :patriot:

[Pavulon]

47. Other than "please" what is your suggestion for combative drunks?

baton? OC, karate match or should they just shoot these people.

[Ignis]

54. Tranquilizer guns might be a solution, but ...

I still wouldn't suggest that We The People issue tranquilizer guns to a poorly trained police force.

In other words, I won't play the False Dilemma game.

Amazingly, cops in the UK manage to deal with combative drunks quite often, without the use of tasers. Perhaps we need to ask their "star players" to train our American police departments?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

49. I guess everyone would feel better if he'd been shot to death.

[Chemisse]

57. Well, the result is the same.

Perhaps a single bullet would have been a more merciful death.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

60. Sudden cardiac arrest isn't painful.

[Chemisse]

62. Seriously?

I have never had any heart trouble, but of course we all hear that heart attacks are very painful. Is sudden cardiac arrest just too fast to cause pain?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

64. You are unconcious almost instantly. When the pump stops everything else shut down.

Interestingly, heart attacks are painful in some people. I've never heard one described as very painful, more often the description is very uncomfortable. Women and diabetics are much more likely to present with atypical symptoms when experiencing a heart attack. I can only remember one woman actually complaining of chest pain. In fact one small study done by an EMS agency found that in the documented 12 lead confirmed st elevation myocardial infarctions, 25% of the patients initial complaint was shortness of breath compared to 20% whose initial complaint was chest pain.

[Chemisse]

65. That is unnerving

As a diabetic woman! Shortness of breath is not the greatest sign to look for, since it could easily be anxiety of some sort, made worse by then thinking it could be a heart attack!

But sudden cardiac arrest? I pick that as the way to go, lol, as long as I make it to at least 85 before it happens.

Maybe I'll wait until I am quite old, then attack a cop!