2 die, 19 overcome at Arizona retreat sweat lodge

[Liberal_in_LA]

2 die, 19 overcome at Arizona retreat sweat lodge

Friday, October 9, 2009
(10-09) 10:00 PDT Sedona, Ariz. (AP) --

Two people died and an estimated 19 others were taken to hospitals after being overcome while sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge at a Sedona retreat Thursday night.

About 50 people were in a "sweatbox" type structure located at the Angel Valley resort, a facility that provides spiritual retreats, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said Friday.

Many people began feeling ill after about two hours in the sweat lodge.

About 21 people were taken by ambulance or helicopter to area hospitals, where two were pronounced dead, D'Evelyn said. The dead were only identified as a man and woman, both middle-aged.

Two people taken to Flagstaff Medical Center were listed in critical condition on Friday. Three others who were admitted to a hospital in nearby Verde Valley recovered quickly; two were released overnight and one was reported in good condition on Friday.

Sheriff's homicide investigators were working to find the cause and determine if any criminal actions might have been a factor in the incident, D'Evelyn said. Investigators remained at the resort and were interviewing the retreat director, staff and resort guests on Friday.


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/10/09/national/a093921D00.DTL&tsp=1#ixzz0TSpzqT9B

[paulsby]

1. ban sweat lodges

we need federal legislation on this crisis (echoing the often kneejerk response to tragic incidents we see)

DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN.

[villager]

6. another hidden (?) gun apologia from Paulsby!

About as unexpected as tomorrow's sun rise in the east...

[paulsby]

7. not at all

it wasn't gun legislation i was specifically referencing. the general attitude amongst most people (sadly) is that when a tragedy happens - PASS A LAW!

look at the lori drew case, for example.

[villager]

12. well, all right -- in the spirit of today's peace news, I'm willing to stand corrected!

;-)

[paulsby]

13. fair enough

i see the bad results of bad kneejerk legislation all the time.

thus, i am especially cautious when people call for a law whenever something icky happens.

cheers!

[asdjrocky]

137. You're talking about banning church for some people.

What an uninformed knee jerk reaction.

[paulsby]

153. whoosh. that went right over your head.

my point was to riff on the classic kneejerk reaction that people have when there is a tragedy. we need to DO something, and that something is often some sort of stupid nannystate overreaching unconstitutionally vague legislation

can you recognize sarcasm?

[asdjrocky]

156. Yeah I get it.

You're being clever. There are so many clever people here these days.

[paulsby]

160. "my boy is wicked smaht"

and he got her number. how do you like THEM apples?

[Paladin]

170. Keep Digging That Hole. The Deeper, The Better...... (n/t)

[paulsby]

171. keep up the contentless posts

the bandwith gods thank you.

[notadmblnd]

2. Isn't there like a 15 minute time limit on saunas?

I know there's one on my hot tub. I would think it would be similar for dry saunas too?

[mike_c]

3. two HOURS in a sweat lodge-- wow....

Yes, I know-- some people do that routinely. Lots can't though, especially without prior experience. Wow. I hope they had good visions on the way out....

[truedelphi]

157. I had the same reaction to the idea of two hours inside a sweat lodge.

Initiates couldn't handle it.

[shadowknows69]

4. Very sad. It's very important for people doing this to be careful

Are they saying someone may have made the lodge toxic somehow? Still reading. I've always wanted to participate in one.

[conscious evolution]

110. My guess is CO

Carbon monoxide can be sneaky deadly.

Depends on how the lodge was heated.
If they used traditional NA methods stones were heated in a fire OUTSIDE of the lodge then brought inside.This would rule out CO if it was done this way.
Others use woodstoves inside the sauna as the heat source.If this was the case there is a myriad of ways that CO could have built up in the lodge.A small crack in the fire box or a rust spot in the flue pipe could have easily poisioned the atmosphere.Even having the door ajar a crack could do it.
The fact that so many were affected also lends to CO as the culprit.I cannot imagine that heat alone would not have affected so many people.

[Bobbieo]

173. There never should have been more than 20 people - at the most -

in that sweat lodge situation. People were suffocating!

It is too bad that the New Age people have taken over a Native American tradition that is centuriees old.

[kestrel91316]

5. I don't get the attraction of saunas and sweat lodges. Seriously.

The combination of high heat and humidity makes me ILL. I have been in a sauna ONCE and will NEVER do it again.

[JonLP24]

9. Based on what a native american friend told me

They're for either religious or spiritual reasons.

[Thothmes]

127. It also a social occassion for the elders of the community.

[closeupready]

the sweat helps excrete toxins near the skin.

And also the heat is invigorating. I happen to love saunas. Esp. when you can get a massage, too.

[kestrel91316]

15. Heat is invigorating???? Perhaps to Venusians.

[conscious evolution]

19. You would be surprised

It can be invigorating.Especially after a cold shower or soak immediately after getting out of sauna.
I also get a nice endorphin buzz from a sauna.

Another interesting side effect from my time in saunas-Once you get used to 150 degree plus temperatures outside temps of 90-to 100 degrees becomes unnoticable.

My guess as to what happened-carbon monoxide build up in the lodge.

[closeupready]

25. Combine the hot/cold thing with a real massage - wow.

That is a memorable experience. :D

[girl gone mad]

139. I used to..

sit in my car on hot summer days, with the windows rolled up for a few minutes. It felt so good after being inside an air conditioned building all day. It did feel like I was being recharged. I could only live in places that get hot at least a few weeks a year.

[onethatcares]

17. I must be invigorated all to hell at this point.

It's so hot outside I think I melted today.

We're baking at 93 degrees Farenheit here in sunny left coast Floriduh, no need for sweat boxes.

[Taverner]

27. Exactly which toxins?

I've heard lots of things promising to "Detoxify" you, but they never mention which toxins.

Especially when body sweat is water, salt and nitrogen. None of those are really toxins.

[conscious evolution]

29. If it was a spirtual sweat

toxins usually refers to toxic emotions,attitudes behaviors,etc...Things that have a negative effect on ones life.
As for physical detoxing many say it works for chelating heavy metals from the body.Never seen any studies to verify it though.I can say that it is good for removing lactic acid build up from muscle tissue after a strenous workout.Its also really good for sweating out a hangover.
Acne tends to clear up in frequent sweatsters also.

[Taverner]

30. I could see that (acne clearup)

Since most acne is caused by clogged pores, nothing like washing them from the inside out

[closeupready]

42. Well I'm not a doctor, if that's what you mean.

So I don't know exactly what it is that the skin excretes, but I know the skin excretes waste products (here's an easy example - gin by-products), and my presumption is that the sweat prompted by the heat in the sauna stimulates that process.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

62. What toxins were you referring to specifically?

[closeupready]

64. Urea, electrolytes, salt, lactic acid. Is this not correct?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. So when you don't sweat, do those "toxins" build up in your body?

[closeupready]

74. Why are you asking me? I already stated, I'm not a doctor.

I don't know. Check google or ask your own doctor about it.

I just know I enjoy it. :)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. Do you think electrolytes are toxins?

[closeupready]

78. Do you?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

91. When I lose electrolytes I usually try and replace them with sports drinks.

Electrolytes like sodium, potassium, chloride and bicarbonate are critical to your body functioning properly. Losing to much of any of them can be fatal.

[closeupready]

93. Good to know.

Thanks.

[conscious evolution]

104. Gator Aide is good

We recommend it at our lodge following sweats.
We require participants to bring a gallon of water.
GA helps keep the cramping away afterward.

[closeupready]

81. Do you think salt is a toxin?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

94. No, salt is not a poison produced by a living cell or organism.

[closeupready]

82. Do you think urea is a toxin?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

96. No, urea is not a poison produced by a living cell or organism.

[northernlights]

169. I can't tell whether you are joking or not

Urea is a waste product of the cellular metabolism of protein and amino acids.

It travels to the kidneys via the blood. Most of it is excreted in urine. A small amount is excreted in sweat, which btw is where the nitrogen in sweat comes from.

If you eat high protein levels, then it can build up in your blood and more will be excreted in sweat.

If your kidneys fail, then one of the major contaminants removed by dialysis is urea. If it builds up in your blood, it can reach toxic levels. The same is true, btw, of the environment. If urea waste builds up in the environment, it damages or kills lakes, streams and portions of the sea.

[closeupready]

83. Do you think lactic acid is a toxin?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

97. No, lactic acid is not a poison produced by a living cell or organism.

[closeupready]

85. Do you think you can answer my questions?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

99. Yes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. Electrolytes, urea and lactic acid are all toxic; the latter two are produced by living cells.

And that's why our kidneys filter them from our blood stream and excrete them with the urine.

Going to sweat lodge to remove these toxins is just plain stupid. Fucking woo woo.

You know what else is bad? Excessive heat. Humans don't sweat under excessive heat to remove these toxins, but to cool the body.

The fact that people die or turn themselves into vegetables in sweat lodges, saunas, hot tubs etc. is a perfect example.

[AngryAmish]

116. Brawndo has electrolytes

It's what plants crave.

[asdjrocky]

138. +1 lol

[we can do it]

136. Does Your Sweat Stink Like Most Guys Do?

that may be a hint as to what it contains

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

142. No. I don't start stinking until I haven't bathed for several days.

We know what is contained in perspiration it's not a secret. We also know what causes body odor.

[Cleita]

162. Letting sweat open your pores while all the grime we accumulate

in our daily lives is pushed out is very therapeutic and if you scrape all the dead skin off that the sweat softens up, it makes your skin ever so soft and glowing. But you wouldn't know about stuff like that because you have never tried it. You just want to criticize what you don't accept.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

168. So asking a question is now criticism? LOL.

I love a good steam. Used to lose a lot of weight in them when I had to make weight for a wrestling match. They do make you feel better (not really the wrestling ones) just the general ones, if you don't stay in there too long. I was just curious as to what toxins were being released.

[trotsky]

129. "You sweat, but toxins likely stay"

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-he-skeptic28jan28,0,7913944.story

But, Glaser, adds, in the big picture, sweat has only one function: Cooling you down when you overheat. "Sweating for the sake of sweating has no benefits," she says. "Sweating heavily is not going to release a lot of toxins."

In fact, Glaser says, heavy sweating can impair your body's natural detoxification system. As she explains, the liver and kidneys -- not the sweat glands -- are the organs we count on to filter toxins from our blood. If you don't drink enough water to compensate for a good sweat, dehydration could stress the kidneys and keep them from doing their job. "If you're not careful, heavy sweating can be a bad thing," she says.

[shadowknows69]

10. I have COPD so I doubt I should try it now.

Which is a shame because I think I'd learn a lot through it.

[Cleita]

158. I love a good sauna, but I certainly wouldn't want to spend even an

hour in one. You should try it again with others who guide you through the ins and outs of doing it. Saunas are fairly dry. Are you sure you aren't confusing it with a steam room? I don't like the steam rooms that much.

[catbyte]

8. If you can't stand the heat....

stay out the Sweat Lodge!!!!!!! I'm sorry people died, but I get damn sick of people co-opting Native American religious practices for who knows what reason. I may be assuming things here, but just the fact that it was in Sedona suggests a New Agey vibe to it. THat said, again, I'm sorry folks got killed. Don't practice what you don't understand and don't listen to charlatans trying to make moola.

:mad:

Diane

Anishnabe in MI

[sagetea]

14. Ok`i

Thank you, for that! Chief Arvol Lookinghorse, predicted something like this would start to happen.

I am sorry that people had to die.

ho
sage

[catbyte]

16. Aanii!

I just hate to see people screw around with Native American practices. Could you imagine the uproar if some jerk called himself the Pope and offered Communion. Sacrilege! Bah. :P



Diane

Anishnabe in MI

[KittyWampus]

38. you are comparing a sweat lodge to the Pope giving Communion. Are you KIDDING?

[catbyte]

60. *Gasp* Yes, I am!!!!!

And no, I am NOT KIDDING. A rip-off is a rip-off, no matter what religion you practice. Why are you so shocked and seemingly outraged at the analogy?

Diane

Anishnabe in MI

[Book Lover]

107. edited away into the aether

...

[Ikonoklast]

123. Which 'Pope'?

What you described already happens.

There are quite a few breakaway Catholic sects already doing exactly what you describe...

And no one really gets bent out of shape over it.

[BeHereNow]

18. Amen and THEN SOME!!!

I was having this very discussion with a friend last night.
People have NO business playing "Native."

You KNOW it was a bunch assholes PAYING for the lodge.
Big mistake.
Too bad they died, but I seriously doubt a single person in the situation
was Native.

BHN

[Codeine]

23. Holy fuck.

I'm agreeing with BHN. :wow:

[catbyte]

24. You said it, BeHereNow!

It's so annoying and seems to be limited to Native American practices. It's always baffled me. We're people, for crying out loud! And don't get me started with Native American mascots! ;)

Diane

Anishnabe in MI

[BeHereNow]

28. The New Agers smelled money, so they cherry picked the practices for profit.

All the so called shamans and charlatans running loose are ridiculous.
I've got a traditional friend in Canada who said no white folks allowed
at his Sun Dance. Good, says I.
My great grandmother was full blood, but I certainly don't
think that qualifies me to put my nose in Native traditional practices.
And I hate the mascot thing too- I am deeply ashamed of the way
Native Americans have been treated by the same jack asses who have
hijacked their spirituality.

BHN

[catbyte]

31. Agreed! I don't know what it is with the Wannabes

Why did it become trendy to be Native? I KNOW that we were the ones with the cool clothes, long hair and beads in the Westerns, but sheesh! If I had a buffalo nickel for every person that claimed their "Great-great grandmother was a Cherokee Princess", I'd be able to retire now! :)

Diane

Anishnabe in MI

[Codeine]

34. And always Cherokee or Apache or Sioux, right?

Never a small tribe that hasn't permeated Hollywood consciousness. :eyes: I'm Irish, German, and Welsh -- I don't feel like I need to piggyback some imaginary Shoshone on there too.

[catbyte]

51. ROFL!

It's ALWAYS those tribes. They need to do a little more research or something. I read somewhere that if everyone that claimed to have a "Great-Great Grandmother who actually *was* a Cherokee (or Sioux or Apache) Princess", then the pre-invasion population of North American would have been in the tens of millions! :eyes: :rofl:

I guess I get annoyed because it buys into the whole "Noble Savage" meme and it irritates the hell outta me. We're actual people with real problems, not a fricking stereotype!

Diane

Anishnabe in MI

[KittyWampus]

63. Hmm, so you talk about the whole "Noble Savage" thing and then try and argue Native American

culture is sacrosanct and pure.

You obviously don't get the hypocrisy.

[catbyte]

65. What in the hell are you talking about?? n/t

[BeHereNow]

66. Good question- Sun Dancers are Bungee jumpers? WTF!?!?!?!?

I gotta send a link to this thread to my Sun Dancer friend in Canada...
ROLF!!!!

BHN

[KittyWampus]

73. Read the rest of the sentence. You are not as well informed as you pretend to be.

[Why Syzygy]

165. Not me.

Muscogee (Creek) Nation
http://www.muscogeenation-nsn.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=12

[BeHereNow]

36. LOL!!! The Wannabes need to visit the Lakota Rez.

Or another poverty stricken rez.
Maybe going Native wouldn't be so appealing to them then...
http://www.re-member.org

Sedona "Sweat Lodge" my ass.

The two words don't even go in the same sentence without evoking
laughter at the notion.

BHN

[KittyWampus]

43. maybe the Wannabes want some of the proceeds from the casinos those spiritual types are profiting

from.

[nolabear]

145. Wanta hear something funny? My gggrandmother was

Choctaw. Not exactly a princess, though. She was an herbalist and healer in a place where there was no conventional medicine and was called in to cure my gggrandfather's first wife of "childbed fever." First wife didn't make it. She stayed on to look after orphaned children and, well, I've seen photos. With that long white beard and those overalls he was irresistable!

So I'm clearly proud of all this, as evidenced by my avatar (chosen from the clipboard so hardly accurate). One reason why is that my mother died when I was a kid and Theodosia--my gggrandmother--was kind of an internalized survivor. When I was really little I figured one tough woman balanced out one terribly sick one and with her blood in me I had a chance of making it. I have always carried around the "wannabe" stigma, though, so it's not something I talk about except with a couple of people who love me. And now here under the umbrella of relative anonymity.

But even I know that there are proper ways to do a schvitz.

[KittyWampus]

41. the anthropological stupidity on this sub-thread is astounding. Sweat Lodges happened all over

the world not just Native America.

And it's pretty funny to see anyone on DU defending ANY "spiritual practices".

Further, I find it ludicrous that someone would suggest you have to be Native American to practice their spiritual path.

[Codeine]

47. They did happen everywhere,

but that's not how they are practiced among the Sedona types. They are always larded over with NA mystical bullshit.

And yes, following the "spiritual path" of a completely alien culture out of some dilletantish desire to be spiritually enlightened is absolute balderdash and poppycock. We don't get to wipe them almost completely out then play around with pretend versions of their religion to satisfy our own empty lives. It's a commodification, it's spiritually empty, it's intellectually vapid, and it's just outright stupid on the face of it.

[KittyWampus]

49. "We" get to pursue whatever spiritual path we like. Or not. And NO CULTURE is sacrosanct.

All cultures are subject to edification and "bastardization".

[BeHereNow]

53. "All cultures are subject to edification and 'bastardization'."

Which is why many tribes have elected to keep white assholes out of
ceremony.
Wy they waited so long is beyond me.
BHN

[BeHereNow]

50. OMG! We agree AGAIN! Mark it on the DU History wall!

:pals:

BTW, now you know how I feel about dumb ass white kids dressing
and listening to "ghetto" music
Spoiled little fucks, the lot of them, as I'm sure these assholes in Sedona were.
BHN

[catbyte]

58. HELL YEAH!!!!!!!

I never claimed ownership of sweat lodges, Kitty Wampus, but those activities--especially in places like Sedona--rip off our cultural and religious practices and they DO NOT have a right to do that.

Diane

Anishnabe in MI

[KittyWampus]

71. Okay, if someone is billing themselves, their wares or services as being provided by Native A's

and that person has not one drop of Native American blood... then I agree with you.

Example, selling jewelry or fetishes in the Zuni or Navajo style and outright calling it "Native American" in general or from a specific tribe.

But from my experience that is rarely the case with New Age people.

No one owns a culture. And you walk on shaky ground if you are going to dictate who belongs to what culture and what they can do.

Creativity and Spirituality are fluid things.

And the white guy is just as capable of receiving Wisdom and spreading it as the red guy. If the white guy is attracted to the Native American pathway and outward trappings, maybe it's from knowledge from a past life.

[BeHereNow]

48. And which fat white european culture practiced sweat lodge sits in history?

And I seriously doubt I know any person fit to participate in a Sun Dance,
other than a practicing Native American Sun Dancer, nor would they be welcome.

Don't see the fat white folks lining up for that one, nah, they'll just sit in the sauna
and pretend to have visions.

BLEH!

BHN

[Codeine]

55. Northern Europeans used them extensively.

After a while we cleaned them up, took out the smoke, and called them saunas.

[BeHereNow]

59. ROLF!!!

And don't forget the crystals and mud baths..,
and the books from the new age self help section.

BHN

[KittyWampus]

61. Sun Dancing = modern day Bungee Jumpers. Both expressions of a Dionysian ethos

that transcends every day reality using drugs and violence (in Ruth Benedict's terms).

And it's strange that you seem to be omniscient and thus able to know which white people can and can't have visions.

As for the History of Sweat Bathing:

"Sweat bathing--be it in the form of the Finnish sauna, the Russian bania, the Turkish hamman, or an American Indian sweatlodge-- is as common to the world as the baking of bread and the squeezing of the grape.

I spent three years traveling around the world, photographing, researching, and yes, enjoying many of these baths. Here are some excerpts from my book Sweat, published in 1978 by Capra Press."

http://cyberbohemia.com/Pages/sweat.htm

[conscious evolution]

95. Russians,Swedes

Fins,Norwegian,German.
Not to mention cultures from around the world that use the practice.
The lodge crosses all cultures.
Native Americans are not the only culture to figure out the benefits of sweating.

[Matariki]

119. "white asshole" "dumb ass white kids" "fat white european culture" "fat white folks"

wow.

[Mariana]

154. That kind of hatred is always ugly, isn't it? nt,

[Thothmes]

128. Ask the Finns.

[G_j]

135. I know what you speak of

and I've known people in the 'conflict'. But I will tell you, real 'holy' people recognize the heart, and recognize some persons who, for whatever reason, have been drawn to learn and practice the old spiritual ways. The heart is key, and the willingness to shut up, and maybe spend years carrying wood and hauling water.

[Matariki]

121. So, you're using a Hindu symbol for your avatar. Where on the Indian sub-continent were you born?

Or are you just appropriating their culture?

[XemaSab]

33. "Multiculturalism" is a guise

for chopping up ancient and intact cultures into commodities to be sold on the global market.

[Codeine]

35. Like "world music."

Funny how every world music release you ever hear has a goddamned dance beat so it doesn't confuse people too much. :eye:

[KittyWampus]

44. Well, it's not like there aren't any Native Americans milking their heritage for all its worth.

LOL!

[KittyWampus]

37. sweat lodges are parts of cultures from around the world.

[Codeine]

39. But in New Age practice

they are invariably a vapid pastiche of pseudo-Native American beliefs overlaid with half-baked mysticism of the Incense-and-Crystals set.

[KittyWampus]

46. So. If someone constructs a belief system & others appreciate it SO WHAT? Native American culture

is as sacred as any other culture that ever existed. It's also as subject to edifying as any other culture.

Sadly some people need to romanticize Native Americans and culture.

[Codeine]

52. I'm not romanticising anyone.

Frankly I find their spiritual beliefs and religious practices as stupid as every other religion out there.

But at least it's culturally appropriate for them. When fat white people ram their swollen guts into a sweatlodge it's fucking beyond laughable. They have their own stupid-ass religions.

[conscious evolution]

67. Not necessarily

I have a lodge in my backyard.
Many different groups use it for spiritual purposes.We have moors,shevites,buddhists,pagans and others. Not a single one includes anything remotely Native American.
We do have NA nieghbor who will do an occassional prayer but that is it as far as NA traditions are concerned.
Most new agers have too much respect to even consider bastardizing someone else's belief systems.

[G_j]

68. the person who pours the water

and 'runs' the lodge is responsible for the well being of every person in that lodge. That person should be checking in with the people to see how they doing. Also, anyone should be allowed, and even encouraged to leave at any time they feel they need to. Aside from all that, 50 people??
This could not have been a traditionally built lodge. I can't believe how completely irresponsible this was! One person can not possibly be aware of, and sensitive to 50 people! I've been in probably over a hundred lodges, and I've never seen a single person hurt.
If they charged money, just add that to the very bad medicine of this tragedy!

This sounds like a crime, at least in my opinion.

[BeHereNow]

70. You KNOW they charged money... it was SEDONA.

Paying for spirituality is an oxymoron.

BHN

[G_j]

75. some try to sidestep the issue

by charging for something else connected to the activity. I've heard people try to claim, the money is for the firewood, etc.
But anyone with the slightest knowledge of the tradition, knows that charging for a sweat, is a big no-no.
Of course that doesn't stop con artists.

[BeHereNow]

90. Their idiotic web site- $144.00 for a WALK!!! Unfuckingbelievable.

Get a laugh- visit their web site.
The "practitioner" profiles are particularly hilarious.
What a bunch of ass clowns.

BHN

On edit- Linky
http://www.angelvalley.org/service_rates.html

[G_j]

108. I first went to James Ray's website

how would you like to learn Practical Mysticism for ONLY $5295 per person?
:banghead:

[BeHereNow]

109. I can hug my four legged fur people and my oak tree for FREE!!!!!!!

Talk about mystical experiences.
I love it when fur people talk to me.
And the oak is a very good listener.

BHN

[G_j]

113. now that is practical!

of course, I could always charge you 100 bucks to talk to a tree in MY backyard.

[BeHereNow]

115. Maybe we could start a resort? Make some BIG money!

We'll charge people to talk to our trees and then herd them into a
room full of crystals and sage and coat them with cat and horse poo to renew their
chakras!

$550.00 a session?
Whaddya say?

BHN

[G_j]

117. good deal

we might even be charging less than the competition.

[XemaSab]

147. $50 if it's for a tree in the front yard

Leave the money under the mat.

[BeHereNow]

112. Link? I'd love to see that one...

Every new ager I know is suffering from soul sickness.

BHN

[G_j]

114. this has got to be the same guy

http://jamesray.com/events/

from the article:
"Authorities said self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray rented the facility and was hosting the group inside the dome, a low-lying structure covered with tarps and blankets. In a testimonial on the retreat's Web site, Ray said it "offers an ideal environment for my teachings and our participants."

Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif.

A spokesman for Ray, Howard Bragman, confirmed that Ray was holding an event at the retreat, as he has done in the past."

[BeHereNow]

118. Oh man...what a charlatan.

Check out the event page on the Angel Valley link.
Talk about quackery.
And to think people actually PAY for that crap.


BHN

[sagetea]

131. Yes they actually do

When I moved to Washington State, I was approached by a woman that told me she could get a bunch of people together and they would PAY me 500.00 If I would offer a "sweat lodge"! I told her thanks for the laugh, I'm going to share this someday!!!
Just because I am ndn...stupid people!
Eta: that does sound rather mean of me, I was in shock, really, I had never been asked that question before!
ho
sage

[Thickasabrick]

124. Are there Native American places that non Native Americans can

visit to experience this ritual?

[sagetea]

140. Take it slooowwww

If you have a reservation close by you, look them up, start volunteering TALK to the Elders, make friends, we are very nice but very hesitant to outsiders. When there is a notice of a Pow Wow offer to be a helper with the food. Take care of the children and Elders, SHOW RESPECT, do not talk to the men who are participating, and DO NOT go near anybody when you are on your menses (if you are a woman)
Eventually, you may get INVITED to attend a lodge, but do not do it with the intent of getting said invitation, it just might not happen!

You just may find you will never have to take part in Ceremony that it is not for you, but you may just fall in love with the Elders and just want to help them.

When you visit with the Elders, bring them gifts, Tobacco, food, coffee, and blankets, are honored. I always brought my Grandmother supplies (and I am related), every time I visited her, it is just what you do!

Share knowledge, listen to them, they are full of life, laughter, and a genuine love.

May your journey be a life changing experience.

Ho
sage

[Thickasabrick]

141. Thank you - I'll do some research and see what is close by. nt

[Mixopterus]

133. Uh...

The Finnish do the same thing.

Saunas and sweat lodges are also very common in Central/Eastern Europe and Russia.

[TransitJohn]

11. What a bunch of idiotic moon worshippers.

:sarcasm:
But seriously, you gotta use some common sense when shopping in the Great American Spiritual Supermarket©.

[TexasObserver]

20. Because physiology doesn't apply when you're on your vision quest!

Twenty years ago, grown men were going out together in large male support groups, banging drums, and whining about their relationships. Of course, those were the Reagan years.

[Codeine]

21. Newflash! New Age idiots playing at being shamans win Darwin Award!

Stick with your own mythologies instead of playing in someone else's sandbox and these things won't happen.

You're a middle-aged, overweight, Deepak Chopra-reading Caucasian citydweller who has never so much as spent a night outdoors in the desert and you honestly believe you have any business in a NA-style sweatlodge? FAIL!

[Taverner]

26. +1

[vaberella]

22. I'm sorry for the victims families. But isn't it unhealthy to stay in a sweat lodge for 2 hours.

Ugh...after 30 minutes I'd need to leave.

[librechik]

57. ding ding ding!

steam gently for ten minutes or less. Cool in icy water. Repeat twice.

Go to SLEEP!

The last hour they were already comatose, no doubt. I would have been.

[begin_within]

32. I've been in a traditional Indian sweat lodge twice.

The first time I had no problem. The second time I failed to drink enough water beforehand, and after about 30 minutes in the sweat lodge I was feeling really bad, and I had to excuse myself. They let me of course, even though it is considered very bad form to leave it early, it is allowed of course if you are in a crisis. I went into the kitchen and gulped down 20 ounces of water, an entire bottle full in one continuous swallow, I was that thirsty. I couldn't go back in of course, but I was fine a few minutes later out in the cool night air. I don't really want to go to one again.

[AngryAmish]

40. It would be really bad taste to mention Darwin right now

So I won't. Because that would be wrong.

[catbyte]

54. lol n/t

[denbot]

45. The person running t he sweat should be asking everyone if they are ok between "doors".

NA sweats have a minimum of 4 rounds or doors. The person running the sweat (the water pourer) will ask how everyone is doing after each round. What happens is that water is poured over the rocks, songs-prayers and a little bit of dialog happens, then the door/s are opened and more rocks are brought in. Before the next round starts the sweat leader asks if everyone is OK before starting the next "door".

At ceremonies there can be up to 3 lodges running at a time, a public lodge where everyone can participate, a woman's lodge and a more hardcore one for warriors/ceremonial dancers/purification rights.

Some sweats are not for "amateurs" like Bear Dancer and Sundancer sweats, and those not accustom too or in poor physical shape do not participate in a hardcore sweat.

[LWolf]

56. It's been several years since I attended a sweat, but

that's they way it was run when I did.

There was also a bucket and ladle of water passed after each round for any who needed a drink.

[closeupready]

69. Oh, wait, I get it - people sniping here are making fun of New Agers who

claim to be inspired by Native American traditions.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

76. DU is jumping the shark. tolerance for others beliefs is out the door and meanness has

filled that gap.

[closeupready]

80. Yeah, it's just insane. I posted what I thought was an inocuous message

upthread, and someone is giving me the third degree about it. Jesus Christ. :mad: Lot of sexually frustrated people here who think irritating members is exciting. :eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

105. So asking you questions about a post is "sniping"? Aren't you a sensitive one?

[closeupready]

120. Hey, Fire_Medic_Dave? Guess what?

Plonk. :rofl:

[Thickasabrick]

126. +1

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

79. Can you give some specific examples of this "sniping"?

[closeupready]

84. Do you think I'll win the lottery tomorrow?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

100. No.

[closeupready]

87. Do you know the way to San Jose?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

101. Depends where you are coming from.

[closeupready]

88. Can you spare a dime?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

102. Of course.

[closeupready]

89. Can I get some Soy Sauce over here?

n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

103. Where is over here?

[Why Syzygy]

166. Lol...

I can only see your posts in this exchange. :rofl:

[closeupready]

167. Okay, so that means I'm not the only one with him on plonk.

LOL

[H2O Man]

86. Too many people,

if they were in one lodge. Way too many.

[BeHereNow]

92. Check out their web site- idiots leading other idiots through the wilderness.

For huge amounts of money.
http://www.angelvalley.org/service_rates.html
BHN

[H2O Man]

98. Thanks.

I appreciate the link, though I'm not going to go to it. It sounds like the type of nonsense that you and I are already aware of. They'll be offering coupons next.

[BeHereNow]

106. Save it for a rainy day, when you need a good laugh, or cry.

It is pathetic to think there are actually people who spend their
lives taking advantage of other lost souls with this new age crap.

I hope someone files criminal charges against these whack jobs.

BHN

[H2O Man]

163. Somewhere, I have

a copy of a promotional ad one of this type put out. I have it in a file from a case that Chief Waterman and I won years ago. The construction company attempted to use the person as an "expert witness" to contest our evidence. Some people will do anything for money.

[G_j]

111. that's insane!

I can't even imagine it.

[H2O Man]

146. It's just wrong.

I remember in the early '90s, visiting a site being excavated. Paul had sent me. The guy in charge was looking at the pattern of a rather large enclosure, a round one with a central fire pit. It was an Owasco site. And he knew I would be reporting back .... I suppose he wanted to sound like he was "sensitive" .... and he said he figured it was a sweat lodge. Not a clue.

[pipi_k]

122. Why someone would purposely sweat is beyond me...

I hate to sweat. I think it's gross and disgusting. Plus it makes me feel very sick and nauseous.

Why anyone would do it on purpose.... :shrug:

[closeupready]

132. That's like saying, why would anyone breathe and exhale deeply on purpose.

Or why would anyone control food or liquid intake in order to control when they urinate or defecate.

[LWolf]

134. It's cleansing.

Putting the spiritual connotations aside, and just looking at the physical process...

It leaves one feeling relaxed and clean. My muscles and my skin never felt better than after a sweat.

Plenty of people who've never been inside a sweat lodge have recognized that.

That's why they use saunas and steam rooms.

[kwassa]

148. Many of the best things in life involve sweating.

Sex.

Dancing.

Eating spicy food.

Working out.

Lying on the beach.

Saunas.

Playing sports.

Building things.

[Cleita]

161. It's actually very cleansing. I don't mean sweating while doing hard work and

getting it mixed up with dirt and grime. But taking a shower and then going into a sauna to sweat all the toxins out of you and then washing them off makes your skin glow and you feel so much better after.

[TwilightGardener]

172. I don't get it either. Locking me into a hot, humid room sounds like torture.

[sagetea]

125. MMMMMM....

Twinkies!

ho
sage

[L. Coyote]

130. Self-help expert charging $9,000 is not a Native American tradition. READ the article, please.

Self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray rented the facility as part of his "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that began Oct. 3 and that promised to "absolutely change your life." ....

The details came in a lengthy release of liability that acknowledges participants may suffer "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries" while hiking or swimming, or during a multi-day personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness without food or water or the sweat lodge. .....

Some participants told detectives they paid up to $9,000 for the event.

...

Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif.

Ray's most recent posting on his Twitter account said: "Still in Spiritual Warrior ... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"

The posting and two others were deleted ....

=======================
Why is everyone turning this into a Native American thing.
This is about someone selling a product that killed two people.
Why not blame the Swedes, they sauna?

[miyazaki]

143. Sedona, costs you twenty bucks just to stop and get out of your car.

well, you know what i mean.

[Cleita]

159. I noticed that when I was there. It was also in August and there

was no reason to go into a sweat lodge. It was 110 degrees out.

[Thickasabrick]

149. They just ruled out carbon monoxide. (NYT article) nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

150. I heard it was a sweat lodge cobbled together with materials like tarps

[Thickasabrick]

151. I wonder if they just ran out of air?? nt

[Thickasabrick]

152. Update: Here a pic of the place - is that a "Heart" field? nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

164. yep, looks like a heart shaped area lined with rocks

[tranche]

155. weird story