These are "before" pictures of Tehran. You rarely see this.

[immoderate]

The views here should get wider distribution.

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.html


--IMM

[bbinacan]

1. Before when?

I'm confused. :shrug:

[jpak]

4. Before Chimp War II

n/t

[bbinacan]

5. Doh!

I should have picked up on that, thanks.

[PennyK]

2. Wow...

...the music could not have been more fitting (Yusef Islam).

[On the Road]

3. For Some Reason,

people feel better about dropping bombs on less industrialized areas. But I agree with you -- this isn't the picture most Americans have of Iran.

Iran used to be one of the places I'd like to travel. Before Bush was election, I would have felt comfotable going there. Now it's going to be years before things get back to normal.

[Clark2008]

19. Especially of the seasons!

Heck, I'm more informed than the average American (we all are here) and I didn't realize Iran had a fall season! I mean, one that looked so similar to our own.

To the OP: Very beautiful pictures. Thank you!

[immoderate]

42. I got this link in an e-mail. I was amazed. Posted it here.

I had nothing like this in my visualization of Iran. It hasn't changed my opinions but it has expanded my perceptions.

--IMM

[helderheid]

88. Same here - I'd NO idea!

[Pawel K]

97. Actually Iran is still a great country to visit

things are fairly stable there, the MSM just doesn't want you to know that. You have to follow their customs when you go but my friend whos family is from Iran just got back from over there less than a year ago. As I said in another post, the pictures he brought back were awesome. I'll see if he'll allow me to post them.

[spanone]

6. Well done video.

Frank Gaffney = nazi neocon.

[mzmolly]

7. I hope Tehran looks the same three years from now, if you get my drift.

I am not convinced that Bush is set to invade Iran, I hope it's not just naivety on my part?

[LonelyLRLiberal]

8. Thank you. We need to know the world Bush is planning to destroy.

Ignorance and stupidity is going to get us all killed. This could be a city here in the US.

[bdamomma]

12. yup those people are no different from us, they all wanted to be like

Americans not anymore they want to be like us.

What a bad perception we get about other countries, we think these people live in shanty towns?

[Leopolds Ghost]

108. Don't feel too bad -- we are the world Bush is trying to destroy

As his economist friends used to tell Reagan "we'll blast off into outer space and/or be raptured long before we run out of resources"

[0007]

9. Great phots! Thanks!

[bdamomma]

10. another beautiful country that hopefully will not be destroyed

by our insane man.

[Hoping4Change]

11. This video is a must see. Thanks for posting.

[Supersedeas]

78. I second that.

[meow mix]

13. someone send this to edwards?

might be a good idea

[Mick Knox]

17. LOL Very nice pics thanks!

[Elwood P Dowd]

14. We've been fucking with those people since 1953

when Ike and John Foster Dulles had the CIA overthrow the elected government and install the Shah.

[Clark2008]

20. And that worked out so well, didn't it?

:sarcasm:

[oblivious]

15. Here's what they can expect if the warmongers get their way.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/uncensored

[AZCat]

26. If not this.

Potential result if the idiot king gets his way.

[Rosemary2205]

16. Thanks - K, R and spread around nt

[lonestarnot]

18. Beautiful. Here's to hoping it stays that way.

As in mid March I expect after photos. :cry:

[IndyOp]

21. Majid Majidi -- If you enjoy movies you can come to know Iran

through Majidi movie's -- my favorite is the first.

The Color of Paradise. Eight years old and blind, Mohammed (Moshen Ramezani) returns home from school for the summer after nearly being abandoned by his widower father (Hossein Mahjub). Mohammed savors the country (special sound effects capture his acute sense of hearing), but warm days and wildflowers have no effect on his father's mood. Believing his blind son will ruin his chance to remarry, Mohammed's father needs no less than a miracle to have a change of heart.



Children of Heaven. A delightful Iranian movie about a boy who accidentally loses his sister's shoes and must share his own sneakers with her in a sort of relay while each attends school at different times during the day. Finally, the boy enters a much-publicized foot race, hoping to place third. The prize: a new pair of sneakers. Directed by respected filmmaker Majid Majidi, Children of Heaven is just that -- heavenly.

Baran When 17-year-old Latif (Hossein Abedini) loses his job at a Tehran, Iran, construction site to the illegally hired Afghan Rahmat (Zahra Bahrami), he begins playing cruel pranks on Rahmat. Soon, however, Latif discovers that Rahmat is actually a girl, and he begins helping shoulder her burden at the construction site. When officials demand that all illegal workers be fired, Latif must choose between safety and social standing, and his young love.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

23. The Keeper: The Legend Of Omar Khayyam

The best movie I have ever seen. 95 minutes. came out Summer 2005.
Director, Kayvan Mashayekh.
Weaves together the ancient story of Omar Khayyam, author of the Rubaiyat, mathematician, court astronomer, and religious wars which Omar refused to get involved in; and
modern day Persians trying to keep their family stories alive. "The Keeper" refers to the person in the family designated as the official historian and keeper of stories.

Also has Vanessa Redgrave. Some of the people in the movie are actual descendants of Omar Khayyam.

Get the DVD at www.greatomar.com

[IndyOp]

39. "Omar" looks good! I've added it to my Netflix queue. Thanks! (n/t)

[Leopolds Ghost]

61. Iran has its own film industry. Also, rent the movie "Grass"

The first documentary directed by an American woman, it is about the Bakhtiari tribe who live in the mountains of the Iran-Iraq border.

"Grass: A Nation's Struggle For Life"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6135

They are not Persian, but you wouldn't want to pick a fight with them (or the Kurds).

If the Sioux or Appalachian peoples regularly scaled mountains barefoot, they'd be in a similar sitiation with respect to the Persians (who were educated and urbanized then and now).

(I.e. you'd have to go through them if you wanted to occupy the entire country. The Persians, being educated and urbanized, are far less warlike than the backwoods areas. Sound familiar?)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

124. Other good Iranian films:

A Time for Drunken Horses: A family of Kurdish orphans struggle to survive in the mountains between Iran and Iraq.

The Lizard: Sentenced to life imprisonment under the Iranian equivalent of the three strikes law, a convict escapes in the clothes of a mullah, and is mistaken for a real mullah.

The Circle: A series of vignettes about Iranian women struggling under difficult circumstances

[John Q. Citizen]

22. Great post. Thank you so much! n/t

[etherealtruth]

24. I had to call my children to the computer to watch this ...

This is so moving.

Thank you!

[Auntie Bush]

149. I called my husband in to watch and he was VERY impressed and

also said he had no idea Iran was so beautiful.

[Pooka Fey]

25. What a lovely city.

[BrklynLiberal]

27. Breathtaking. I wonder how many Americans realize that actual human beings live there.

[CrispyQ]

84. I wonder how many Americans realize that human beings live anywhere but here?

Argghhh!!! Our ignorance of the world outside our borders is shameful. :cry:

To the OP, wonderful post. I will be sending that link to everyone in my address book.

[treestar]

100. So sad, but true. I don't think they picture Baghdad

at all, just a few tents and some camels. Ignorant freepers always refer to sand and camels, as if there are no real people there and as if there is nothing modern there.

[slipslidingaway]

28. Wonderful! There are many great pictures at this site as well of

architecture, art and historical pictures of their constitutional revolution in the early 1900's.

http://iranchamber.com/

http://iranchamber.com/cities/iranian_cities.php

You just have to look around. :)

[immoderate]

43. Nice. Thanks.

--IMM

[slipslidingaway]

174. You're welcome and thank you for posting! n/t

[bdamomma]

66. there are so many christian Armenians living in Iran.

this has got to stop now, this administration/regime has got to go.

[Leopolds Ghost]

75. What will happen to Iran's Jewish community if we (or Israel) bomb Iran?

Will they be treated like the Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor, or worse?

[kestrel91316]

135. My nextdoor neighbors at the office here are Persian-American

Christians of Armenian heritage.

He lost a hand in the Iran-Iraq War. They have two kids. Very nice people.

I live in what is called Little Teheran, a district of Los Angeles in the San Fernando Valley. If Bush nukes Iran, these people are going to go BALLISTIC. They may love America and hate the mullahs, but they don't want ANYBODY hurting family left behind in the old country!!!!!

[kineneb]

137. exactly

My step-father is from Iran. I, at one time, had an Iranian passport. If things go bad, it may get ugly here. I certainly don't want Dimbulb to bomb my relatives, either.

[ironflange]

29. Lovely place. It shares its setting with Denver and Calgary.

Too bad the streets are crawling with terrorists.

:sarcasm:

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

30. K&R nt

[Mrspeeker]

31. WOW I missed these pictures on CBS,ABC,NBC,CNN + FOX

And so did you thanks to our so called FREE PRESS, But I sure know what Mahmoud Ahmadinejad looks like because thats the only picture that our so called free media will show us over and over. Of course with every showing the FREE MEDIA gets to offer its distorted view of Iran, and as always its the evil terrorist president of Iran that want atomic power right?

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The president of Iran is actually a elected puppet, and let me tell you our media knows this but are they going to tell you the truth? when story's are so much better for ratings and war machines.

So who do you think actually wears the pants in IRAN?
The Supreme leader absolute ruler

There plenty of spots on the net to examine the Iranian Government like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Iran. A quick read of any political examination of Iran will show that what Our free press is telling us and what the actual facts are, are two completely different things. One is a PNAC + GOP talking point and the other is the actually factual make up of the Iranian government.

Corporation News = Story's based on talking point derived from think tanks like Carl Rove
BOOKS, Independent Media and Encyclopedias = Information based on actual facts not derived form a single person

So yeah I Think the story's are great, and it sure shows what an creative imagination are free press has but when I do my book reports, there based on facts not fairy tales.

[oblivious]

34. Good rant, Mrspeeker.

[Straight Shooter]

32. Thank you.

Stunning.

:thumbsup:

[Alamom]

33. Thank you. Incredibly beautiful. n/t

edsp

[cool user name]

35. Such a beautiful place ...

Remarkably modern, it seems.

Too bad we're going to fuck that up too. :eyes:

[Leopolds Ghost]

57. You guys should know, it's been modern for quite awhile now...

As was Iraq before we funded Hussein's regime and then Bush's war and sanctions.

I'm amazed by how many people, even Democrats, think Muslim countries are part of the "Third World".

They are not.

Then they wonder why educated Iranians and Pakistanis beat them out for tech jobs.

Waaa waaa waaah! "Start with geography, then history, work your way up to computer science" we should say.

[cool user name]

65. I never implied otherwise ...

I just simply made an observation.

That was a tad knee-jerky, don't you think?

[Leopolds Ghost]

69. That was not directed at you. Lots of people including folks advising us not to go to war

Think Iran is "Third World" because it is (a) Muslim and (b) "in Asia" -- a fictitious way of distinguishing it from nearby Russia, or Greece, which OF COURSE would NEVER be called "Third World".

In his "Iran Order of Battle", Anthony Cordesmann calls it a Third World country.

My reply was in reference to the numerous folks reading this who may get taken in by talk of Iran being poor and backwards, and "not to be fooled into opposing war with Iran for the wrong reasons, they are poor and starving over there etc. etc."

[cool user name]

114. Thanks for the clarification and I agree.

Thanks.

:hi:

[bdamomma]

68. we will all pay for this, this has got to stop

we are destroying countries and peoples lives. :cry:

[and-justice-for-all]

36. What a beautiful and clean country....

Now I see why *Co wants to knock them back to the stone age.

[Change has come]

37. Thanks for posting this.

Looks like an average American city. :scared:

[Runcible Spoon]

38. I'm sorry, I have a huge problem with this

almost all if not all of the images emphasize Western values, behaviors, aestetics, architecture, infrastructure, hell even courtship behaviors in Tehran. This is not to say that these things do not exist in Tehran, which is actually a pretty ethnically diverse, but the underlying message to me screams "save them because they're civilized and advanced LIKE US! AND they like hamburgers and sports!"; as if people in "ethnic" homes or mud huts or shanty towns do not deserve the same consideration. Just my 2 cents, I did like the info that went along with it though, and I appreciate the need to "humanize" Iranian people in our public conscious.

[smoogatz]

40. So what's your criticism, exactly?

The video didn't show Iran as you imagine it? Yeah, that's a serious problem, all right. No doubt the folks who produced it are kicking themselves right now. Sheesh.

[Runcible Spoon]

46. umm I thought I made it fairly clear the issue I had with it.

THIS is also Iran:




I just take issue with the fact that only squeaky-clean images palatable to Western sensibilities are shown. Tehran almost looks like Toronto, it's highly white-washed representation. Where are pictures of the slums, of the rural populations, etc.? There is no "ethnic" flavor to these images, and they were chosen deliberately for that reason, I assure you, so that DUers and other white middle class liberal bleeding heart Westerners (and admittedly I AM one) can sit there and oooooohh and ahhh about what a beautiful country it is, because it looks like OURS.

[eviltwin2525]

50. The purpose, as i understand it

is to convince americans not to destroy Tehran. If that is most effectively done by putting the "most-Western" face on the city....I've got no problem with that. Once the imminent danger is removed (ITMFA!), there will be plenty of time for a more well-balanced and accurate picture to be painted. But with the threat of instant annihilation hanging over it and many of the folks who still have some influence on our psycho-in-chief generally being, themselves, less than friendly to anybody who doesn't look exactly like them, putting a more american face on the city is not merely to be accepted, but driven home to the max.
If you can come up with a "more honest" campaign which has anything like the potential impact of this admittedly slanted one, great, go for it. It isn't an exclusive field.

Dan in Seattle

[Leopolds Ghost]

60. Don't go talking about a "more balanced" picture of Iran without talking to actual Iranians

Unless you want Iranians to start making cracks about rural, inbred American rednecks with no running water and starving children in the slums of the US.

The easiest way to find an Iranian to correct the perception of "just another Middle Eastern country" is your nearest university.

As for saying "Tehran and its sister cities with their millions of residents are not an accurate reflection of the country",

the same is true of New York, etc.

[Runcible Spoon]

76. yeah well which representation is more accurate?

so you want to go take a poll of a single Iranian in a Western city in the US and ask that person about representations? I wonder how they would be predisposed to answer? I only take issue with any of this because the message is that they are so "civilized" and "Westernized" that somehow destryoing Tehran would be all the worse because it's not a mountain village. I suggest you read some post-Said post-structuralist work on representation, PM and I'd be happy to send you some ideas. I am scarcely the only one in academia who takes issue with representations like this, it is actually a side effect of globalization, transnationalization of media/commerce; a backlash against Orientalism without actually breaking free of colonialist attitudes.

[Leopolds Ghost]

79. I'm sure you could speak more to the post-structuralist aspect.

I am not a post-modernist, which means I am almost surely not a
post-structuralist.

I have studied architecture and metaphysics, however.

Within my area of interest, I'd say that I'm an epiphenomenalist
and an absolutist.

I do not believe in the use of representation to accurately
express absolutes, however that does not mean there are no
absolutes.

In this case, I'd say that representation isn't important.

Most people will remain ignorant of the "real" Iran whether
the "real" Iran is an idea, an ideal, a representation, a
collection of attributes, or an individual thing that can
only be approximated descriptively.

So all aspects are important, including "unimportant" aspects
such as ugly power transmission lines and toxic waste dumps,
or the prosperous and colorful characters that tend to
dominate the media and blogosphere both here and in Iran,
leading to a skewed perspective that probably can't be overcome
except thru direct experience. So that is my thoughts on the
matter as you asked me to express them.

[Leopolds Ghost]

83. In the old days Cat Stevens would have probably asserted that Iran is an individual thing

And all Iranians are part of a continuum with the rest of humanity (and the rocks, trees, etc.)

It helps to think, if we're going to deconstruct concepts like "Asia" to realize that they are at best an imperfect description of a concept we have either mistranslated or have no direct experience of (e.g. God) or, at worst, a lie (given that there is no such separate geological feature and the cultures of the Mediterranean and Near East flow into each other, so it is demeaning to use it to signify a cultural division, as if religion is all that matters, when in truth, HATRED of someone else's religion is all that did it.)

[Runcible Spoon]

130. dismissing the importance of representation is lazy and irresponsible

BTW post-structuralism is actually a direct critique of PMism, but I doubt given your background you've come into contact with much of that. I've dabbled in architectural theory of cities, but Lefebvre had the same problems as most neo-Marxists although his commentary on praxis was pretty interesting for its time. The theories I'm sympathetic to utilize teh concept of praxis as a way beyond the materialism/idealism divide, albeit with a more contextualized and situational lens (I'm thinking Giddens specifically, but I've been influenced by Setha Low, Foucault, Gramsci, Baudrillard, MacCannell, Bruner, I can go on).

It is HERE where representations are vital to understanding what a "city" is. It is just denial of "reality" (tongue in cheek) to dismiss representations, as you suggest, because you find it impossible to reconcile your need for absolutism with their more transient nature. It is not practical, people conceptualize and construct representations constantly, tweaking here or there, self-/group identity is one example, the "city" is another. This does not mean that all representations are equal however, and praxis theory allows us to study a culture and its people to decipher what the most relevant aspects of representation are, what people are thinking about and caring about, what MATTERS at that time. It takes a certain level of intuition (yes, I know this is problematic but it "works") and a large dose of sensitivity to social dynamics. You are engaging in situational, contextual representations constantly, whether you believe in it or not. I suggest letting go of the need for absolutism, it is a yoke that Western philosphy has bore for too long. You'll feel (en)lightened :)

[Leopolds Ghost]

177. Perhaps. I am increasingly Monist in outlook

The Eastern version of Monism is basically the opposite of Postmodernism, insofar as everyday experience is a lie we tell ourselves and the ultimate reality is ineffable.

Perhaps you could help me understand what praxis is about.

As for the necessary relevance of representation, the problem is that representation is and always has been twisted to accomodate our personal desires. As an epiphenomenalist I tend to believe that this is because we are not the people we were 20 years ago.

What we interpret as the truth about the history of our own civilization is highly filtered by what has passed down to us and what has not passed down to us. In such a climate, trying to make the majority of Americans understand in some meaningful sense a foreign country they have not visited is near-impossible. They will always develop representations in their heads that are mere symbols, like camels and that sort of thing. The problem with postmodernism is that it welcomes this process instead of trying to transcend it.

On top of that, most people do not try to use their brains to understand "underlying reality" if they believe in such a thing (and of course with postmodernism both in architecture and literature, it is fashionable to assert that there is no underlying reality that matters -- all that matters is the ideas. In architecture world, this results in buildings that literally look like computer models come to life, with no unobservable levels of detail.)

[Phrogman]

53. Thats right damnit! Don't be trying to humanize Iranians

Everybody knows they live in slums, dress weirdly and eat funny foods.
They're evil and need to be nuked!

[Runcible Spoon]

72. sigh

sometimes I wonder why I BOTHER saying provocative things when most won't fucking get it

[alcibiades_mystery]

80. Curious term, "humanize," given the critique

To humanize: to make appear Western in customs, practices, and culture.

Nice.

:eyes:

[Leopolds Ghost]

86. Here's what I'm getting at, right in this post.

You seem to have this bizarre idea that Iranians are markedly "non-Western" in language, culture, daily ritual, built environment, religion, government, everyday dress and outlook.

And that a slideshow must reflect that -- as if all the images of Caucasians living in a mountainous country that sits on the edge of the Caucasus are somehow misleading.

To make such a ckaim you must first identify what it is about Iran you think is not "Western".

The slideshow is a series of images.

Despite most peoples assumptions of Iran looking anything like, well, Iraq,
they are pretty standard images of an ordinary country on the edge of Europe.

One with large, typical modern cities (you call them "Western" but the truth is traditional architecture has been wiped out by modernism across the globe) and nice climate, and nice people who are basically working class or middle-class, like many Brazilians or Pakistanis.

One which thankfully has maintained its own unique culture that has not been totally assimilated by Greco-Roman-British-American reductionist ideas of "Western civilization" vs. "Eastern civilization" (or supposed lack thereof). Much like Brazil or Pakistan.

Had the slideshow depicted brown-skinned dusty tribesmen living in a filthy environment,

would you have have raised your voice in protest that they were not
showing anyone from the educated, urban, Caucasian and middle-class
Persian majority? Like I said the slideshow is a series of images.

Had this been a slideshow of Finland, would you have complained that they were showing too many photos of Finns wearing bomber jackets going to art museums, and not enough photos of reindeer-riding, non-Caucasian tribesmen in colorful dress and singing songs that bear great similarity to Native American songs?

The latter are an important part of Finnish culture, but the majority of that nation is still urban and (let's face it) white-bread (and slightly condescending of neighboring cultures). The same is true of Iran. Iran is more "Western" than "Eastern", even in terms of the evolution of religious thought, unless you artificially define the terms to exclude it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

92. You talkin' to me?

I haven't raised my voice in protest yet, dawg...

:rofl:

Don't worry, Leopold. I have no exoticism fetish to speak of, mkay?

[Leopolds Ghost]

94. Another Aggie joke:

Aggie #1: "Lookit that there dawg, groomin' his you know what"

Aggie #2: "Man, I wish I could do that"

Aggie #1: "He's a good ol' dog, why'nt you ask 'im?"

---

Aggie #1 and Aggie #2 march into downtown Tehran on a camel.

Slideshow Photographer: "Would you look at them two a***oles on a camel?"

The Aggies get off and take a look.

[alcibiades_mystery]

99. The correct dosage for your meds should be on the bottle

I officially have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, and I'm guessing that this phenomenon is not new to you.

Go easy on the doobage, Chester.

[Leopolds Ghost]

102. Google "aggie joke", you picked the wrong opportunity to be passive-agressive buddy.

Let someone from Texas or the surrounding states explain it to you.

[alcibiades_mystery]

105. Oh, yes, I'm terrified of your weirdo regionalisms

Brrrrr.

Lemme go hide.

:rofl:

[Leopolds Ghost]

107. OK, good thing I'm not iranian then.

:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

109. I've finally figured it out

I'm far too dumb to understand your veiled allusions.

Thanks for "clearing" that up! You are a master of clarity!

[Leopolds Ghost]

111. Well, if you explain a joke, it's no longer funny.

Espevially an Aggie joke.

No elitism intended.

(Full Disclosure: a relative of mine is an Aggie but my briefing on Aggie jokes took place before that date, your honor. And the Aggies plead ignorance. :-)

[alcibiades_mystery]

113. As long as you're amusing yourself, then

with your "jokes."

You certainly are amusing me, but for other reasons...

[Leopolds Ghost]

183. Aggie = A proud student of Texas A&M university

Aggies visiting the local equivalent of a Dairy Queen in downtown Tehran = likely to make ignorant comments (not really, but that is the joke. but you have to be an Aggie, or a fan of a rival school to get away with telling an Aggie joke.)

Ironically, Aggies are not living up to stereotype, College Station TX was one of the only jurisdictions to vote Kerry in the last election, was it not?

[rman]

87. The point is that Iranians who live in slums,

dress weirdly and eat funny foods etc, are humans to.

Which was made quite clear.

[Leopolds Ghost]

101. Yes, but I think the point of the slideshow was that most Iranians don't

live in slums, dress "wierdly", or eat funny foods.

As a matter of fact, a REAL Iranian restaurant is some
of the best food around -- and most food from central
Asia is perfectly recognizable to a Western palate.

Traditional dress (which is rarely worn nowadays) is
worn mostly by ethnic minorities to show cultural pride,
just like everywhere else. And is not markedly different
from traditional dress in Eastern Europe or Kazakhstan or
anywhere else.

The fact that most Americans have lost their own culture
and do not have traditional dress of their own or a taste
for any sort of funny food (Iranian food don't count, it's
much too mainstream and delicious) is their own loss.

Most people in places like Iran have proudly embraced
"modernism" even though some of us who've been subjected
to corporate rule slightly longer might recognize the
limitations of modernism, Iranians have mostly channeled
that into seeking economic and political independence
from the West. We percieved this to be an attack on our
corporate interests, which indeed it was, so we fomented
civil unrest and Iraqi invasion of Iran, causing the
leftist revolutionaries (the actual hostage-takers) to be
rounded up and imprisoned or deported.

[Runcible Spoon]

125. way to take almost EVERYTHING from my posts our of context

jesus fucking christ you play dirty. Never ONCE did I say that all or even most Iranians lived in dirty slums. EVER. and spare me the "explicit narrative" you think my posts implied. You still don't understand my critique, but I'm done here.

[Leopolds Ghost]

178. Im not attacking you! I just dont see value in highlighting one representation to counteract another

Do educated Westerners like to see photos of people at the upper end of the income ladder who they identify with? Yes they do. Do I wish people at the lower end were more visible, especially townspeople whose indigenous culture and local economies are slowly being wiped out? Yes. But these things are true here in America too. That is all I'm saying.

Besides which, if anything needs counteracting, it is the notion that Iranians are a bunch of dagger-wearing nomads and therefore reprehensable in the eyes of Americans who grew up rooting for Custer and hating the nomadic Indians. It is easier to challenge their beliefs by pointing out the obvious hypocrisy of thinking nowhere is like America, than going the difficult route of FIRST trying to make them identify with people who are different.

I read a review of a recent book about the failure of integration in 1990's Chicago which suggests Americans, including immigrants from other countries, will never abandon their xenophobia and stereotyping, because it suits their interests to live among people of their own race and class.

The best we can do is highlight the fact that people from other cultures
are NOT unaware of how Americans live and have their own cities and restaurants, etc. and in fact, much of "Western civilization" is no different from how humans have always endeavored to live in other countries. We just have the resources to do it.

I think it is ironic we are exporting a culture of selfishness and disregard for the working class and poor here in America, because it forces Second World countries to choose whether to go down the route we are going -- of a series of powerful Second World nations with developed economies and large, oppressed underclasses -- or go against it by becoming a series of protectionist First World nations that have broad social economy, sustainable local economies, and are opposed to US global trade policy.

[Leopolds Ghost]

184. Also, FoN, my post was in reply to rman's fairly direct statement (which may have been sarcasm) n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

59. Yes, you are a typical American.

(I am being sarcastic to show the problem with your logic)

Most Americans do not live in slums or mountainsides or the deserts of West Texas. That is the image the WORLD has of America, though.

Same with Iran.

I also have a big problem with lumping in the fierce mountain tribes of Bakhtiari and Kurdistan, who can climb mountains barefoot, train donkeys as homing messengers,

and can generally kick your ass in a fair fight,

with starving slum dwellers.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6135

And saying the tribal peoples of Iran are "typical Persians" is like saying the Lakota Sioux or the residents of Cheasapeake County, VA or parts of Alabama and Louisiana (!) are "typical Americans, living in rural villages with no running water and picking through trash for their next meal."

There is a name for cherry-picking images of women in colorful sari-like hijabs to make some kind of "message", it is called Orientalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/orientalism

[Runcible Spoon]

71. as I've said, I'm quite familiar with theories in Orientalism

:eyes:

[trumad]

90. LOL

Google American Poverty and you'll pull up far worse pictures of our own country. Every country has poverty.

[smoogatz]

129. Not Belgium. Or Norway.

Or the Netherlands. Or France, even. Not really.

[trumad]

147. Are you saying there's no poverty in those countries?

cause you're wrong. Maybe not as bad as the US...but they got it.

[smoogatz]

167. Nothing like the US.

Not even close--are you kidding me?

[smoogatz]

93. Maybe you should put together your own video, then.

The folks who made this one are clearly trying to make exactly the point that you're objecting to--and making it beautifully, IMO. I.e., that Iran is not a nation of crazed Islamic savages, yearning to destroy the West.

[Leopolds Ghost]

103. Maybe not, but this thread has me yearning for a kubbiyeh w/yogurt from Moby Dick House of Kabob

And one of their delicious flatbreads, baked in a clay-fired oven.

[Ilvlibnot]

175. Invitation: Immigrate to Iran and enjoy yourself wildly!

[Leopolds Ghost]

180. Your message sounds like a xenophobic "If you don't like American food, leave"

My post was a simple recommendation to try Iranian food next time you visit an Iranian restaurant. I hope you were merely condurring with that recommendation, but since you said "Immigrate there" I am guessing you are another victim of what I was telling FarceofNature about -- the widespread xenophobic notion that Iranians are not a developed, modern nation with its own modern customs, urbanized mode of dress and behavior, good food, etc. Like the hated France.

I hope this isn't what you meant, if not, sorry.

[fishwax]

186. gee, welcome to du

what a weird first post.

[Art_from_Ark]

190. Ilvlibnot

appears to stand for "I love liberals-- NOT"

A tombstone appears to be in order for this poster's profile.

[fishwax]

199. my guess too

thus far, the poster hasn't risked a seoond post :rofl:

[mdmc]

193. welcome to du

lots of young Americans might be invited to Iran soon enough.:kick:

[Runcible Spoon]

132. why does it HAVE to be one or the other?

I certainly wouldn't construct any representation of Iran or its people as savage or crazed. Why would you think that just because I have an issue with the Westernized images and would like to see a greater spectrum of diversity represented? Do YOU think that all the people in Tehran's slums or in the villages and groups outside urban centers are crazed Islamic savages? This is just an example of how Americans need to put a pretty veneer and simplistic fix on everything to feel better, as opposed to actually looking at the root of the issue at hand. I feel this way about the dynamics of welfare, affirmative action, two-party system, etc.

[smoogatz]

136. I think the video does a fine job of making its point.

You want it to make some other kind of point about the diversity of Iran's socioeconomic spectrum. That would pretty much make it a different sort of video, one constructed for a different purpose. Go for it--what's stopping you?

[Runcible Spoon]

155. "what's stopping you"...

because I wouldn't shop around Google images and throw something together like that. I would take at least 3 months of fieldwork and then decide how to construct a contextualized representation. Iran isn't my field of expertise, although I am quite well versed in what is collectively called "Middle Eastern" (and we hate that term) history and culture(s).

[smoogatz]

169. And that would be an altogether different sort of project

with an altogether different effect, aimed at an altogether different audience, created for an altogether different purpose. Which just kind of reinforces my original point, which is that the reason you're complaining about this video is that it doens't make YOUR point about Iran, whatever that is (you haven't really made that clear). Why should it have to? The point it makes is interesting and valid and visually powerful. Considering the whole thing is about two minutes long, that's a considerable bang for the buck if you ask me.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

141. The issue at hand.

The issue at hand is that Americans stereotype Iranians as crazed Islamic savages.

And this video deconstructs those stereotypes.

So what's the problem?

[Runcible Spoon]

154. by replacing one stereotype with another?

a hyperidealized representation? it's kinda like gays in television. While the stereotype of fashion-conscious, catty metropolitan twinks may be considered a "positive" stereotype it is nonetheless irresponsible to apply that metanarrative to all gays. I don't think this video is harmful in any sense of the word, I just have my issues with it and I have made those clear.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

161. Oh, I see.

You're worried people are going to start stereotyping Iranians as upper class cosmopolitans.

:eyes:

[Runcible Spoon]

162. *sigh*

I'm not going to repeat myself; read my other posts if you want an answer. The issue is about what Westerners value as good and worthy of saving, the issue is about colonialism and Tehran's projection of a cosmopolitan world city in the face of unequal hegemonies of power/resources/political clout, etc., the issue is about whitewashing a representation to make it palatable to Western eyes because we are unable to accept more than surface diversity both here and abroad, etc. I give up, some people just can't tolerate a viewpoint different from their own without veering off into specious misrepresentation and/or plain ole' incomprehension.

[oblivious]

163. I don't think you should give up. You're making an important point.

I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree but at least you made me think about it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

185. FoN, we don't really disagree. The irony is the 1979 hostage takers were mostly secular leftists

Who got sidelined by the constitutional regime they put into power because the mullahcracy were radical populists who supported, and some of whom still support, a complete social safety net.

The leftists got sidelined after WE funded Saddam to gas the Iranians and invade and attempt to topple the regime, causeing the Iranian hard-liners to consolidate power in an atmosphere of all-out invasion.

But I don't see any danger in pointing out that the Iranian upper-middle class wields significant influence at home and also among Iranian immigrants, who, like most US immigrants from the region, are highly educated. It might actually help the dialogue about Iran to refocus the debate on whether Iranian upper-middle class really care about political liberalization or if they, like Fareed Zakaria, are more interested in making a killing on privatization of the Iranian economy in hopes of creating a Manhattan-style economy where the rich control everything and there's no problem because everyone who can afford to live there is rich.

[slipslidingaway]

170. Do you know how old these pictures are, I'm particularly

interested in the origin of the black and white photo in the middle. Thanks.


I found the third picture on the iraqonline site

http://www.iranonline.com/

http://www.iranonline.com/iran/Fars/images/ghashghai-tribe1.html

Spring migration of Ghashghaie Tribe, Yasooj

[angstlessk]

51. I understand exactly what you are saying, however...

Iran IS our next objective...in fact I have been looking for pre war Iraq film. Cause I know Sean Penn went there and brought back film..I have not been able to find it.

I hope this video gets around..and people realize we and they are more alike than different. Just like Sean Penn tried to display before the Iraq war.

[jelly]

52. I got the same impression.

nt

[DemExpat]

56. I had the same feeling watching this.....

but it IS a lovely city with some lovely people.

And an image that we hardly see at all here.

DemEx

[Leopolds Ghost]

58. Sorry, Farce. Persians don't live in mud huts.

You must be thinking of the Bakhtiaris and other tribes who live on the mountains, such as the Kurds and Bakhtiari. You will have to get through the mountains to reach Persia.

Unlike Arabs and Afghans, who the Persians look down upon much as New Yorkers look down upon southern rednecks (as lazy, tradition-bound, pious and prejudicious)

the Kurds and Bakhtiari get along quite well with the urbanized, civilized Persians.

The Kurds are known for their smuggling expertise, liberal views on religion and culture, and ability to kick ass. (their private army, the Peshmerga, translates as "those who do not fear death")

The Bakhtiari are known for carrying livestock up the side of snowy mountains barefoot. see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6135

The Persians are known for living in cities of a million or more and working in industrial jobs (unlike backwards comnmunities in certain countries that depend on tourism, gambling, and call centers.)

Isn't global diversity fascinating? To learn that some countries still have their own manufacturing base and well-meaning Democrats still consider them "Third World" countries.

Merely because western fashions are popular there.

[Runcible Spoon]

73. I never fucking SAID THEY DID

it was for dramatic effect. Your Wikipedia-induced lectures are tiring me.

[Leopolds Ghost]

118. Look, I wish most people would be curious enough to learn about the nomadic tribes and

the urban Persians and the socially conservative rural Persians and the mountain dwelling ethnic groups and the Zoroastrians and the people in the Caucasus and the Iranian Jews and the Elamites and the Iranian Arabs and the Baha'i faith etc.

But if there's one valuable lesson Americans can afford to learn, it's that Iranians aren't all colorful ethnic villagers out of Borat.

Highlighting the pictures of (mostly) middle-class Tehran citizens (and a few wealthy looking media types) does that.

[Runcible Spoon]

126. I'd rather America learn about it ALL

and learn to appreciate ethnic, economic, social, religious diversity. Yes the pictures are pretty and we feel all fuzzy inside but honestly there are problems in ANY representation.

[Leopolds Ghost]

181. I do too, but speaking on my own opinion I'd rather they understand there are things about Iran

they will never know unless they live there, and not to make assumptions.

The virtue of being a liberal absolutist is being able to assert that we will never know the truth of the matter, we can only educate ourselves to the best of our abilities (and the abilities of most Americans are limited by isolation from people who live in these other countries.)

What I find interesting is as the years go by, Europeans are becoming more estranged from the US and less enamored of US culture, but in the process, in the absence of a "hook" with which to hang their interest on, they have lost familiarity with what American life is like, American geography, etc.

I meet folks staying in youth hostels who comment "It's nothing like I imagined America would be."

Heck, there are people in the US who think the entire East Coast is one big industrial hellhole with no trees, no greenery of any sort. That's the image they get from watching the Sopranos, etc.

[Leopolds Ghost]

62. Another thing: Persians do not consider themselves practitioners of "Eastern culture & values."

West vs. East is a political thing in Iran, just as it was in Russia during the Cold War.

Iran is part of the same cultural and linguistic region as the Greco-Roman-Persian empires.

You might as well say rural Greeks living in white-washed villages are "white-washing the truth about Greece."

Persians are not Arab (in the sense of being descended from wandering semitic tribes who only settled in cities when an oasis was nearby.)

They have much more in common historically and culturally with Greece, Turkey, and India than they do with Arabia.

In terms of society, they have more in common with Russia or Eastern Europe than any Arab country.

[Runcible Spoon]

70. I am PERFECTLY AWARE of all of these things

so please can the patronizing history lessons. I've read Said. However the fact remains that not all Iranians look, act, and conspicuously consume like fucking Americans. I just thought the representation was odd.

[Leopolds Ghost]

77. I'd agree with you, but people tend to do the same thing when talking about Americans

Either we are all cowboys and gangsters (still true in many parts of the world)...

Or we are all happy-go-lucky Allie McBeal / Allen Ginsberg / Andy Warhol / John Waters free spirits who live in interesting cities, breakfast at Tiffany's and lead interesting lives and give birth to colorful free-spirited child prodigies like Ferris Bueller and Marty McFly.

(which seems to be the bias this slideshow host is displaying)

I don't have a problem with it because it upstages most American's ignorance that Iranians ARE very much like them.

Hell, tribal people are very much like rural Americans.

There were several great slideshows of 9-11, they all focused on the melting-pot of Lower Manhattan.

Tehran happens to be the city that will be damaged most by US bombing (whose implicit purpose, as in Iraq, is to set back Iranian technology and economy 50 years DELIBERATELY and destroy as much of their "inferior" culture as they can get away with.)

If that means "bombing them back to the stone age", well, that is where they belong in many people's minds, which is why even poor and leftist Iranians and Brazilians and Pakistanis and other "Second World" nations hate it when folks say that poverty or tribal culture is the "true face" of their country.

I do agree that poverty and distinctive local cultures are important, but that's true here in the US too, where local cultures -- Native American, Cajun, Gullah, etc. are being wiped out by "Westernizing" influences and the first priority is to "assimilate" people so they won't lower their employers' property values.

[Runcible Spoon]

127. I don't believe in the myth of cultural assimilation.

that's why these images are hard for me to swallow. People blend and reconfigure social dynamics all the time, but never wholesale adopt a new way of life. It is always recontextualized. The images in the slideshow suggest otherwise.

[Leopolds Ghost]

182. I welcome when people retain their own culture, so I guess I don't see the problem

I believe that most people who retain traditional folkways would like to have the conveniences of modern life as well, and in fact most traditional folkways traditionally aspired to having the appurtenances of modern life: the world's first restaurants were in places like China and Iran, the first multi-unit apartment buildings were in desert cities of Yemen and New Mexico, India and Morocco had formal gardens before Christian Europe did; steam and electricity caught on pretty much everywhere at the same time, which is why Japan and China were full participants in WWII. But the colonial system directed most wealth to Berlin, London and New York, just as it's now directing most weatlth to cities like Miami, Houston, Shanghai and Dubai -- all of which are part of the neocon investment class.

That being said, there are destructive aspects of modern civilization that are slowly destroying local culture and folkways EVERYWHERE, including here in the US, and replacing it with a homogenized corporate culture that looks up to an aspires to a unified global elite (most of whom call themselves "upper middle class" and "liberal reformists".) It is the whole neocon / neoliberal dilemma.

[alcibiades_mystery]

82. The only way to stop the attack on Iran isd to convince people that Paris Hilton

lives in Tehran...

:rofl:

Check out those Lindsey Lohan shades! These people can't be THAT bad! Do they have Dairy Queen???

[Leopolds Ghost]

89. "It's pronounced Eye-ran" Aggie #2: "Miss, could yew say the name of this place real slow-like?"

(blink) (blink) "DAAY - REE -- Kuh-WEEN"

[Little Wing]

91. I agree

:-)

[Pacifist Patriot]

123. I'll stick my neck out.

I understand what you are saying. I think you're critique is quite clear, as is your appreciation. I happen to agree with you.

Personally, I find rural villages in the mideast and redneck crossroads in the U.S. to be beautiful in their own way. And slums reprehensible wherever they may be.

I think the piece is likely to have impact precisely because of the issues you point out. And THAT should have an impact on all of us all its own. With what do we identify and what do we value?

[Runcible Spoon]

128. I agree with you save one thing

I think slums can have their own beauty, not that I romanticize them but I find it hard to believe that even people in the poorest places can express joy and beauty.

[oblivious]

131. I agree completely and I've lived in some of the poorest places in the world.

[Pacifist Patriot]

142. I find beauty in the slums is rarely from the environment.

It comes from the hearts and souls of the people who usually have little choice but to reside there. But that's just my opinion. :)

They are a reality on any continent and the residents deserve protection and preservation just as much as those in the 'burbs do. That's all we're saying, eh?

Cheers!

[Runcible Spoon]

156. absolutely.

I agree :hi:

[RiverStone]

168. another kick!

Thank you :)

[Marie26]

230. I see your point

But Americans are ignorant about Iran, even if we consider ourselves enlightened. With 20+ years of sanctions & travel restrictions, there's almost no way for Americans to experience what Iran is really like. Is it mostly rural or mostly urban? Mostly traditional or mostly modern? I haven't a clue. So even if this is a "sanitized" version of Iran, it's still a window into a country that we've slammed the door on.

[mmonk]

232. I met quite a few Persians when in college. They ARE real

people that act civilized (unless they can put up an act all day long). I get your point that if they were in huts or something, it still doesn't mean they should be easier to bomb. One of my closest friends I had in my past is from Iran but is an American citizen now. His parents and sister would come visit sometimes and we'd go out to eat. The average person there isn't what is stereotyped here though.

[argyl]

41. Beautiful city, beautiful mountains,beautiful people. One more crime

against humanity coming up if the Bushco thugs have their way.A very good friend of mine worked for a company owned and operated by Iranians in Seattle for a number of years.He was treated like family by them and when I came to visit they were very kind and open to me as well.

Darrell came to know a lot of Iranians and grew to know a fair amount regarding their culture.He told me a number of times that he'd never met a rude Iranian.

Darrell died of lung cancer in the summer of 2005.He died a hard death and was too sick to work for several months.The company's owner came to see him at least once a week and paid him his full salary out of his pocket until he died.And the women came by regularly with delicious Iranian food.

The thought of wreaking destruction on this beautiful country and its people just makes me sick.

[WillyT]

44. Wonderfully Done, Thank You !!! - K & R !!!

Peace

[truedelphi]

45. Posting this is almost cruel - Do we have to visualize

Another nation destroyed (as well as de-story-ied) by our polictics and our military industrial complex.

I will be forwarding it on to more conservative friends who think that other nations are
somehow occupied by people who are less than human living in terrain that is less than earthly in its beauty

[babylonsister]

47. E-mail this link to everyone you know. nt

[ConsAreLiars]

48. Yes, thank you.

Despite the propaganda, Iranians are people. Something thew Corporate media doesn't want us to know. The other hidden truth is that Big Money is not human in any way.

[angstlessk]

49. I love that the music is by Cat Stevens...n/t

[Danger Mouse]

54. This makes me sad, to think of what we might do to this place.

More human lives lost, for Bush?
We can't let that happen. The Dems can't let that happen. Enough lives have been lost already because of that sick bastard. We don't need more to die.

[leveymg]

55. An antidote for the hateful images of Iran we're usually shown.

Thanks for this.

[wakeme2008]

63. The sad part is before Bush invaded Iraq there was a slideshow

of the Iraqi people much like these. Happy people getting married and kids playing... Not the Iraq of today :cry:

[Leopolds Ghost]

67. The Iraq slideshow makers were accused of cherry-picking and/or fabrication.

Because human beings don't live in a totalitarian state, dontcha know.

Ironically, we have many accounts in film and literature about just how human the Germans and the Jews (and the Poles and the Japanese) were before and during WWII.

People seem to think only starving, ignorant and generally heartless rural people are capable of evil (and thus it's OK to bomb starving, ignorant rural people.) Maybe because most Americans live in cities.

Perhaps we should post this slideshow on FreeRepublic and see what happens.

We can take a pool on the first:

"those pictures are faked, that is DENVER I live there"

[bdamomma]

139. beautiful children and people lived in Iraq, what makes us

think we are above or think we are superior to other countries or nationalities, (I am directing this comment to anyone here on DU), explains why there is only 27% of people in the US who hold passports, are people that close minded not to know what other cultures are like? Apparently so.

[npincus]

64. K & R

[Leopolds Ghost]

74. Beautiful slideshow

Look at the picture of the skyline silhouetted against the Elburz mountains.

Just think, we are rushing to war so we can drop bombs on that photograph.

If we "win" (meaning slaughter enough Iranians), the Iranians may decide they need a modern, anti-aircraft system in those foothills, and a modern missile system to go with it.

Eventually we'll have to invade Costa Rica if they fail to privatize their services properly, since they have no army.

The American definition of a "fair fight" is no American deaths (because our soldiers lives are precious), "50,000 terrorists" killed (because anyone zealous enough to fight for their country, if their country is not America, must be a terrorist).

[The Stranger]

81. K&R

[Clinton_Co_Regulator]

85. Anyone know the script to add that to my blog?

anyone? anyone?

[Leopolds Ghost]

188. Type in "peacetrain.swf" instead of "peacetrain.html" and save to disk

You can save this file to your own web account, wherever that might be:

http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.swf

Hotlink your own copy and ask the author for permission to host it on your blog. They may say yes or no, but I imagine they'd say yes!

(you probably don't need permission to e-mail it to people as an .swf file as long as you include a link to the original source...)

I don't know, maybe the author will allow you to host it using his
bandwidth by hotlinking directly to http://www.lucasgray.com/video/peacetrain.swf
but that would probably clog up his bandwidth since it's 3 MB long.

Better to copy the file with the author's permission, I think.

[Pawel K]

95. My friend is from Iran, I've seen his pictures from his trips over there

it is such a beautiful country. But then again Baghdad was exotic too.

Syria is another country that looks similar to that. Yet these red necks see these countries as 3rd world, what a bunch of idiots.

[Leopolds Ghost]

106. What I don't understand is 90% of America calls Iraq, Syria etc. a hot, flat dirty wasteland

Then they go on vacation and praise the virtues if the Sunbelt.

I'd put Damascus up against Phoenix any day, sight unseen.

Except, oh yeah I forgot, Americans hate old buildings, and Damascus is one of the oldest cities on earth.

I went on the Circle Line tour of Manhattan and the announcer/guide said
the most common and difficult-to-answer question was, when passing
Riverside Drive: "how come they don't tear down all those old buildings?"

In DC the most common question asked by visitors to the Mall is "where are the stores?"

[treestar]

96. We need more and more of this sort of thing

The imagination of the average freeper is so limited. They ought to look at that before they so casually decide they are willing to destroy it.

[LynnTheDem]

98. Gee...almost like real human beings. Too bad the bush regime doesn't know.

http://www.ullakimmig.de/azadi/Tehran's-youth_3.jpg

[SammyWinstonJack]

104. Wow! What a beautiful place! Beautiful people!

I really hate **, republicans and ALL WARMONGERS! :grr: :mad:

Thanks for sharing this!

[Not Sure]

110. What a gorgeous place

I hope we can get rid of the assholes in power who seek to make money destroying then rebuilding this beautiful place in their own image.

[Xenotime]

112. Iran is a peacful city...

* plans on destroying them before he leaves office.

[nolabels]

116. Chimp plans? More like chimp sees and destroys.........

Somehow i see it where many still don't want to acknowledge how much the chimp has destroyed in the USA

[INDIA]

172. Iran is a city? A peacful city?

Who knew?

[The Count]

115. Wasn't Michael Moore skewered for showing stuff like this on Bagdad on F 911?

Blasphemy, I tell ya!

[kineneb]

117. doesn't look too much different from when I lived there

1970-71 school year. Northern Tehran (Shemran) is right up against the mountains, and is beautiful. I bet that is where the waterfall photo was taken. And yes, Tehran does four seasons (elevation is ~3,500 ft.).

My bedroom window looked out on the Elburz Mountains. I hope that Dimbulb doesn't blow up the portions of my family that still lives there. I love the Persian half of my family.

[butterfly77]

119. Frank Gaffeney has been itching to bomb Iran...

for a while he has been all over the media,ranting and raving about it...

[pdrichards114]

120. What a beautiful city and culture.

Makes me ashamed to be an American under Der Chimperor. He's going to destroy what took centuries to build because he wants more money. What a dispicable excuse for a human being, a real drain on society.

[helderheid]

121. You have GOT to see this! LINK: LOTS more pictures and interesting forum

http://www.irandefence.net/showthread.php?t=32

[Kindigger]

143. Obviously something is wrong

Everyone appears fit, and all the cars are small. Why aren't they all fat, and driving big ole gas hogs? There isn't any smog hanging over the mountains. No way could these people want nuclear technology for anything peaceful! :sarcasm:

[hedgehog]

122. DId you see the picture of the little kid made up as Spiderman?

Yup, they hate us for our freedoms, alright.

[BuyingThyme]

133. kcik

[roamer65]

134. Folks. I talked to a close Turkish friend via phone today.

*They* are very worried about what is going on over there. Very worried.

[ClayZ]

138. Big K and R

:kick:

[oblivious]

140. Here's an extraordinary page of photos of the natural and traditional beauty of Iran -"Amazing Iran"

Amazing IRAN by Shahram Razavi

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/73022/index.html

Here's a tiny sample:

Masouleh Village - Northern Iran


Bakhtiari tribesmen on their way to their cemetry in Izeh in South-Western Iran.


Olive trees of Northern Iran


In 1967 Tehran was the scene of one of the most glittering and pompous coronations of the century


A Mansion in Mazanderan - Northern Iran


Shushtar - Khuzestan Province, Iran


Iranian tribal girl


Iranian kids - Shiraz


One of the world's oldest churches
"Qara Kelissa" in Iran's North-Western Azarbaijan region is supposed to be one of the absolute first churches to be built in the world. From Wikipedia: "Believed by some to have been first built in 66 AD by Saint Jude. Local Armenians believe that he and Simon were both buried here."

[immoderate]

144. Your samples don't display on my computer.

A notice from worldisround.com is there instead.

--IMM

[oblivious]

146. Oh darn. I did a preview first and got rid of the photos with that notice.

But they must have some other software preventing display. Fair enough. Would you mind trying to post one from their website? Cos they all show on my computer. There are so many lovely ones.

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/73022/index.html

[immoderate]

148. OK, here goes. (Beautiful pictures.)

Works OK in preview.

On edit: It doesn't display in the actual post. I guess they have it blocked.

--IMM

[oblivious]

152. Your photo shows up on my computer. Thanks.

It must be a problem with your computer's settings.

[oblivious]

171. OK, I'm blocked on my computer now too. Here's the link again.

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/73022/index.html

Sorry to mess up the thread.

[slipslidingaway]

173. Gorgeous pictures and another page from the same person

found in the comments sections. The photos here are just of Tehran and you will see some of the images used in the video.


Again the page takes a few minutes to load all the pictures, great find. Maybe these links deserve their own thread? Thanks for posting.

Tehran
http://www.worldisround.com/articles/98910/index.html


repeating you link

Iran
http://www.worldisround.com/articles/73022/index.html

[Leopolds Ghost]

189. Wow, there's like 600 photos on that page! Beautiful!

I love travelogues. There's so many places people know nothing about, including right here in the US. If there were more appreciation for
art and architecture and customs, people would consider aerial bombing
to be a war crime like it was before we got into the act of doing it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

192. Some of the replies are heart-warming (or heart-breaking) ;-(

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/73022/index.html

Scroll down for the comments section.


"Please please,please send this all over the world. Let everybody know that Iranians are not the barbarians they say. And people : keep these pictures very preciouly, there may come a time when the originals will have been destroyed of stolen! Our land will always survive."
-— parvaneh, April 16, 2006

"the most beutiful country on earth - this is the first time seeing the beuty of my fathers homeland. my father's father was a general under the shaw. After he left iran he came to america and changed his name. he never spoke of his home country."
— jason ess-haghabadi, January 10, 2007

"I never imagined that Iran is such a beautiful country!!! I am completely awestruck by your pictures. I knew of Iran's proud heritage but now I find that it also has the natural beauty to match it. -- Your website wants to make me jump on a plane from Bangladesh to Iran direct!!! Thanks for opening our eyes to the beauty of Iran!!!"
— Mubin Sadruddin, November 7, 2006

"A land of Treasure -- How many of these are UNESCO sites? The treasures of Iran MUST be protected. The wealth of architecture and rich tapestry of culture and history needs to be preserved for future generations. If only our governments weren't such stupid little boys...."
— Ashly, May 3, 2006

"Great collection and a big effort -- My hat's off to you for putting together this large collection of pictures. Also, thanks for finding and using some of mine. Here's more, action and activities around Iran:

http://community.webshots.com/user/cambysem

— Cambyse, March 12, 2006

"These photographers have done more good for our culture, our nation, and Iran, than anyone I know. These pictures have no less artistic value than the works of other contemporary or ancient Iranian poets and artists have created. Their work will last for eternity.
Much luck to you,

Rubik from Texas."

— Rubik, March 9, 2006

"Thank you for these amazing pictures! You have captured the soul and the spirit of Iran, a land that cannot be reduced to its recent geo-polotical situation, and which cannot be forgotten, once it has touched one's soul." — Anahita A, February 2, 2006

"Iran is beautiful, & so are you Shahram. - Thank you for the work you did. Can't wait to see this in a book. I hope that it will be easy to get clearance from all the artists. Thank you for getting me back in touch with the gorgeous land we have. Pics of Guilan and Shemshak & Dizin made me cry. I spent so much of my childhood there. Till the day the whole world (& the expatriots) will be able to travel freely in Iran. And may Bush stay away from it. God bless all my wonderful brothers and sisters. I love you all.

-- Shahrzad, California" — shahrzad, December 6, 2005

"I traveled to Iran a couple of years ago and must admit that as an American Jew, I really was flabergasted at the level of warmth, kindness, and hospitality displayed by the Iranian people towards me. Iran and its people are truly beautiful! Marc form NYC"
— Marc, December 5, 2005

"I got the chance to go to Iran last summer, and I am really quite ashamed to say that I was expecting it to be a very oppressive country where everyone was hostile towards Americans (which is, sadly, how the American media portrays it), so imagine my surprise! As your photos have shown, Iran is not the wasteland it is often perceived to be, but one of the most incredible countries I've visited, and everyone was so friendly towards me, even though I'm an American. I hope I have the chance to visit again. It's unfortunate that the poor relationship between the US and Iran will prevent Americans from actually seeing your beautiful country. If only Americans could get a look at the REAL Iran, there might not be so much hostility! Thank you for sharing."
— Mandy, November 20, 2005

"Safeguard Iran! Is this what USA and allies want to destroy next?
(After Afghanistan & Iraq) All of us should safeguard this heaven!"
— wanalimi, June 21, 2005

"Kheyli Khasheng!! This is a marvelous undertaking. I thank you and worldisround for offering a window on such wonders! I hope that you will continue to add commentary and more specifics to all these pictures - I know you have already put in hours and hours!

The Baha'is of the world are Iran's cheer leaders. May the land of rose gardens and prophets and poets join the whole world in gentle freedom!" A Baha'i from Wisconsin
— David Lea, June 1, 2005

"Great job. I miss Iran." — Ziba Moahmmadi, July 11, 2005

"Wow! Your photos showed me that Iran is a beautiful and varied country. I never knew about wild tulips. What a lovely photo! Did Iran have a wet winter in 2003-2004? Here in California we had a wet winter in 2004-2005 and the deserts came alive with flowers. If you search for my name (above) you can see some pictures of the desert flowers. Thanks again for the photo tour of beautiful Iran! I hope I can visit Iran someday."
— Alison Ruth Defrese, April 30, 2005

"Dear Shahram: My son opened this webpage for me to see. The only thing that I can say right now is that I am very very proud of being an Iranian woman." — Nasim, March 6, 2005

"Excellent shots of breathtaking craftsmanship and skills. You have a truly amazing country and heritage. I drove through from Turkey to Bandar Abbas some years ago on a tight schedule but got to stop in Isfahan to see the Masjed-i-Shah: deeply impressive. Much food for thought." — Tom Sheppard in the UK, February 5, 2005

"kheyli jaleb bood - Hey thanx alot this is realy a perfect collection Im in vancouver and I always had problem haw to explain my country to people here that they dont confuse it with arab countries but now thank 2 u the problem is solved . AND would you mind put more pictures of nowadays pretty girls and guys in Iran ? (the street fashion )"
— faranack february 3 2005, February 4, 2005

"Iran: Marze-Por-Gohar!!! Your pictures are wonderful. I was there 2 years ago and I really want to go back. I was especially impressed that you included pics from Kashan (my hometown), including Kakhe-Fin. Great job!!" — Yasmin, February 1, 2005

"Thank you very much. Fabulous. As an Iranian living in west, i can tell, sadly, most of western people associate Iran with Iraq and Afghanistan and think we are Arabs, nomades and backwards. Ive explained them several times that we are Persian with 4000 years of civilisation. With all the pictures of those beautiful mosques they would probebly even believe more in, that we are Arab. That would be a good idea if you put more pictures of our modern Iran, Industrial areas, medical centers, roads, Universities, buildings, airports, hotels from above to show its magnificences and developments. I ve missed home a lot."
— Mitra, January 21, 2005

"Just found out! Wine was invented in Iran!! It is really ironic that the people are not supposed to drink it, any more...." — Eleanor Robb, December 8, 2004

"To see the buildings, parks, streets, metro, restaurants, boutiques, shopping malls and people of Iran's giant modern and cosmopolitan mega-capital Tehran - Visit my other album "Tehran - Mega Capital of Iran"

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/98910/index.html

— Shahram Razavi, September 6, 2005

"ATTENTION PLEASE: Some people have reported that they as of recently are unable to access my Tehran photo gallery page from the U.S.A. ("Teheran - Mega Capital of Iran") - I would appreciate if those of you who reside in the U.S. and post comments here would include in your comments your country of residence so that I can assess the situation regarding access from the U.S.A. Thank you. (The Tehran photo gallery contains approximately 1000 pictures of today's modern and progressive Tehran, featuring the dramatic progress and development which has occurred in recent years, and shows another side of Iran, very different than the prevalent image of the country reflected in much of the Western media.)"

Excerpts from:

http://www.worldisround.com/articles/73022/index.html

[Marie26]

194. Those pictures are so beautiful

I would love to travel to Iran someday, though that's probably never gonna happen. Americans aren't very welcome anywhere, anymore.

[pettypace]

145. Didn't realize how scenic Tehran is.

And forgive me for being out of line, but very beautiful women!

[immoderate]

150. Not out of line...

...if you like women! :) I myself have a fondness...

Welcome to DU!:hi:

--IMM

[walldude]

151. I can't believe there was actually a debate in this thread...

A ridiculous argument over semantics of not showing the "rest" of Iran. Look, this video was not meant for us. We are the people who are already against war with Iran and Iraq. This slideshow was designed for the fucking moran with the "Nuke em' all" sign who think all Iranians ride Camels to work. Pretty simple. Kudos to the people who made this and the OP for posting it. This should be on the MSM constantly so the 30% or whatever can actually see who they are actually killing when the scream for nukes.

[immoderate]

153. Thanks. Those were exactly my thoughts.

I knew I didn't have to convince DUers, but that this would be effective to pass around to outsiders.

About the debate. This is my beloved GD!:eyes:

--IMM

[Runcible Spoon]

159. I'm not shitting on your thread.

we can ooh and ahh about the sexy women (incidentally, I wasn't aware that Paris Hilton's twin lived there LOL) and nice clean streets and feel better about ourselves but it's not accomplishing much. At least the responses to my posts provoked thought; that's what's vital.

[immoderate]

176. Hmm! I could have been more clear. Nothing against you.

Or anyone else in particular. I expect debates in GD. ("I'm shocked! -- Shocked!") People complain. People complain that people are complaining. And so on... The eye rolling was a kind of "How could you not...?"

--IMM

[Runcible Spoon]

157. It is NOT a semantic argument about "inclusiveness"

I suggest if you are going to comment on my posts I would appreciate that you do not misrepresent what I am conveying, provided that's not too difficult for you.

[Pacifist Patriot]

164. The people who found something to criticize about the piece...

also acknowledged that the source of the criticism was precisely why it would be effective. They were simply stating that it was a shame, and bothersome, that it has to be done that way to be effective. I'm not sure why that perspective was something to get up in arms about.

Personally, I learn more when people either disagree with me or give me something to gnaw on. I would consider it a compliment that you provided us with something to discuss rather than to simply bobble our heads about.

[bridgit]

158. looks like they already have the freedom thing covered, i say let them be...

:)

[Geek_Girl]

160. Looks like a beautiful Country

I hope we don't destroy it.

[trashcanistanista]

166. To turn this debate around a little

Amy Goodman from Democracy NOW!!! has been saying for years, if the American people saw the real outcome the war caused to the Iraqi people in the form of gruesome and realistic war footage, dead bodies, children screaming, bombs destroying homes, utter devastation, on the nightly news for one week, the war would have ended in three weeks. The people would have demanded it. We wouldn't be discussing this.

[walldude]

165. Kick...

[knight_of_the_star]

179. Wow

You could swear those were shots of Denver if you didn't know any better.

[cboy4]

187. They do hang gay teenagers here which is outrageous. That's

a human rights violation something these "every day" photos don't reveal.

As angry as it makes me, I do not want to see this theocracy bombed.

[oblivious]

191. They hang gay teenagers who gang-rape a 13-year-old at knifepoint.

That's what Human Rights Watch concluded in the case you are referring to.

[cboy4]

196. Oh bullshit. Where is your link to the information that that

happened?

Secondly, it is beyond disgusting that you apparently have no trouble with hanging children in the town square, even if this was the case.

Un-fucking-real.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

197. I need a reputable link to believe that bullshit.

They hang gay people in Iran for BEING GAY. They don't have to do anything else. I could be hung in Iran, simply for being who I was born as.

[ThomCat]

198. You're confusing two cases.

They hung two gay teens for have sex with each other.

And then they hung a teen girl for defending herself and a friend from a gang of would-be rapists. She accidentally killed one of the men during the struggle.

[oblivious]

200. No, AI, HRW and IGLHRC say they were executed for rape at knifepoint.

All claims that they were executed for being gay comes from one article that human rights organisations claim was mistranslated.

Amnesty International: Iran continues to execute minors and juvenile offenders

On 19 July 2005, an 18-year-old, identified only as A. M. and a minor, Mahmoud A, were publicly hanged in the north-eastern city of Mashhad. According to reports, they were convicted of sexual assault on a 13-year-old boy and had been detained 14 months ago. Prior to their execution, the two were also given 228 lashes each for drinking, disturbing the peace and theft.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE130382005

Mixed reports on Iran hangings (Gay)
Rights groups dispute claims teens were hanged for being gay

But the circumstances that triggered the executions are now being questioned by several human rights groups, which claim the teenagers, Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni, may not have been killed for being gay.

Research conducted by the International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International has found, so far, that the teenagers were convicted of and executed for sexually assaulting a 13-year-old male, a crime that occurred when the two teens may have been minors.
http://www.washblade.com/2005/7-29/news/worldnews/iran.cfm
http://www.nyblade.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=1786

Human Rights Watch: IRANIAN TEENS WERE HANGED FOR RAPE, NOT GAY SEX But Questions Remain
04/08/2005
The two male teenagers hanged in Mashad, Iran, July 19 were executed not for having sex with each other, as has been reported, but for raping a 13-year-old boy, Human Rights Watch is claiming.

The New York Times and the Times of London separately reported the same thing.

Mahmoud Asgari, 18, and Ayaz Marhoni, 19, allegedly raped the boy at least 14 months prior to their executions, meaning at least one, and perhaps both, of them were minors at the time.

Note from ILGAOn this case, apart from this article below, please also read an interview of an Iranian LGBT activist and the statement from other ILGA members IGLHRC, Outrage and COC.

According to Scott Long, director of HRW's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Rights Project: "On the morning of July 19 -- that is, just before the executions -- a long article in Quds, a Farsi daily published in Mashad, described the case. It is clearly identified there as a rape case, with a lengthy interview with the father of the 13-year-old apparent victim. The account there is that the case dates back two years, that the boy in question was seized outside a shopping area by the two boys ultimately convicted, who took him to a deserted area where five other boys were also waiting. (It's not clear what happened to the five other members of what is described as a gang.) He was gang-raped at knifepoint, according to his father's account, which is supported by three passersby who interrupted the
act. Passersby were attacked with knives and had their cars vandalized."

It also now seems that an article from the Iranian Students News Agency, translated and circulated by the London gay group OutRage!, was not the first article about this case, as OutRage! believed, and may not have been translated correctly.

OutRage! had reported that the ISNA article said the boys were executed for consensual gay sex. But HRW says the headline and the first sentence of the article make it clear they were hanged for "sodomy by coercion" ("lavat beh onf"). "Lavat beh onf," HRW said, is an archaic phrase that is not the normal way to refer to rape.

"Ultimately," said HRW's Long, "one has to ask what is the basis for believing that the boys were tried for consensual sodomy. It boils down to an English-language article on the Iran Focus Web site having made no mention of the rape charge. There is no other substantial evidence."

...

...Is gay life in Iran as dire as some reports on this case suggest?

According to a new interview with the publishers of the Iranian gay magazine MAHA conducted by the Web site GayRussia.ru, it is not.

The magazine is distributed from inside Iran via e-mail in PDF format. (If it were published on the Web or in traditional magazine format, it likely would be blocked or banned by the government.) The magazine has 600 subscribers.

"After eight months of hard work, eight issues and four supplements have appeared, covering issues such as gays and family, depression among GLBT, a report about lesbians in Iran, etc.," the publishers wrote in the e-mail interview. "MAHA also publishes a separate supplement for gay aid and to help GLBT to find a friend. Today MAHA has two editors, one gay and one lesbian, and MAHA's readers are all over the country and even some Iranian GLBT in exile."

The publishers said gays are no longer routinely persecuted in Iran.

"The regime does not systematically persecute gays anymore, there are still some gay Web sites, there are some parks and cinemas where everyone knows that these places are meeting places for gays," they wrote. "Furthermore it is legal in Iran that a transsexual applies for sex change and it is fully accepted by the government.

"There are some media which sometimes -- not often -- write about such issues. Having said that, the Islamic law, according to which gay punishment is death, is still in force, but it is thought not much followed by the regime nowadays.

"Thanks to the Internet and contact with the international community, people get the info, and Iran society has changed a lot, and support for GLBT rights is growing in Iran, though we still have a long way to go," the publishers said. "On the whole, we are optimistic about the future as Iran's situation cannot continue and people are pushing for reforms and changes."

http://www.ilga.org/news_results.asp?LanguageID=1&FileCategory=9&ZoneID=3&FileID=689

Human Rights Watch: Iranian Teens Were Hanged for Rape, Not Gay Sex
But Questions Remain

The two male teenagers hanged in Mashad, Iran, July 19 were executed not for having sex with each other, as has been reported, but for raping a 13-year-old boy, Human Rights Watch is claiming.

The New York Times and the Times of London separately reported the same thing.

Mahmoud Asgari, 18, and Ayaz Marhoni, 19, allegedly raped the boy at least 14 months prior to their executions, meaning at least one, and perhaps both, of them were minors at the time.

According to Scott Long, director of HRW's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Rights Project: "On the morning of July 19 -- that is, just before the executions -- a long article in Quds, a Farsi daily published in Mashad, described the case. It is clearly identified there as a rape case, with a lengthy interview with the father of the 13-year-old apparent victim. The account there is that the case dates back two years, that the boy in question was seized outside a shopping area by the two boys ultimately convicted, who took him to a deserted area where five other boys were also waiting. (It's not clear what happened to the five other members of what is described as a gang.) He was gang-raped at knifepoint, according to his father's account, which is supported by three passersby who interrupted the act. Passersby were attacked with knives and had their cars vandalized."

It also now seems that an article from the Iranian Students News Agency, translated and circulated by the London gay group OutRage!, was not the first article about this case, as OutRage! believed, and may not have been translated correctly.

OutRage! had reported that the ISNA article said the boys were executed for consensual gay sex. But HRW says the headline and the first sentence of the article make it clear they were hanged for "sodomy by coercion" ("lavat beh onf"). "Lavat beh onf," HRW said, is an archaic phrase that is not the normal way to refer to rape.

"Ultimately," said HRW's Long, "one has to ask what is the basis for believing that the boys were tried for consensual sodomy. It boils down to an English-language article on the Iran Focus Web site having made no mention of the rape charge. There is no other substantial evidence."
http://www.glaad.org/poc/muslim/iranian_teens2.php?PHPSESSID=2d4219bb74abb2b0bb38eb39a852700b

[cboy4]

204. No no no....I appreciate your FOX News technique of leaving

out important information.

But the Amnesty International release you're citing DID NOT SAY IT HAPPENED, it said this:

"According to reports, they were convicted of sexual assault on a 13-year-old boy and had been detained 14 months ago.

ACCORDING TO REPORTS.

Which reports would those be from?

The truth-telling Iranian government that hangs people for being gay?

And you further neglected to cite that Amnesty is calling for Iran to stop hanging children.

Your post contains a lot of words, none of which positively conclude that these boys raped a 13 year old.

And even if they did....they should be in a juvenile facility....not in a grave!

STOP supporting the hanging of children. :puke:

Your position is unspeakable.



edit....spelling

[oblivious]

205. Where did I say I support the hanging of children. Your accusation is unspeakable.

I only corrected this standard propaganda line current in the US and UK that Iran hangs gay teens. The hanging referred to was for gang-raping a child at knifepoint. That's a fairly relevant point you left out from your Fox News propaganda.

You wrote "Your post contains a lot of words, none of which indicate these boys raped at 13 year old."

Well this is another flat-out lie. I even underlined it a couple of times. And you have it in your own Amnesty post.

Weird.

[cboy4]

207. Of course Iran hangs teens. Did you look at the fricken photo

I posted?

Propaganda?

Oh my God, I can't believe someone here doesn't believe Iran hangs children.

ANYONE who is gay us hanged.

And let's for argument sake say I agree with you that these teens raped a 13 year old.

You think they should be hanged. These high school boys should be hanged?!?!

How about I hear you say you don't support Iran hanging children?

Otherwise, you are one despicable human being.

[oblivious]

208. I don't support the death penalty under any circumstances.

I did not say anywhere that Iran does not hang teens.

You are wrong that ANYONE who is gay is hanged. Just read the links I provided.

I said nowhere that I thought those teens should be hanged.

I only corrected your propaganda statement that Iran hangs teens for being gay. I see it posted over and over on DU and once in a while I take the time to point out that according to three respected international human rights organisations that this statement is most likely false.

I would sincerely request that you stop putting words in my mouth, misrepresenting everything I say. This is unacceptable behavior.

[cboy4]

211. Read my post on sharia law.

You are unbelieveable if you don't think homosexuality is a crime punishable by death in Iran

[Puglover]

226. "I said nowhere that I thought those teens should be hanged."

You are right. What you posted was much more passive aggressive. Nice try.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=66228&mesg_id=79000

edit spelling.

[oblivious]

231. What is your point?

[cboy4]

209. You need to read up on sharia law before you start

challenging me on this issue.


Like many other Islamic countries, Iran enforces the religious sharia law, which allows for the execution of children, including girls aged nine or older and boys 15 and older.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Execution_of_two_gay_teens_in_Iran_spurs_controversy

[oblivious]

210. That is not the issue. The issue here is your statement that Iran executes teens for being gay.

Stop changing the topic trying to pretend that I said something I didn't. This is getting tiring.

[cboy4]

212. What is wrong with you? Had these boys been caught engaging in

homosexual acts (minus any charge of rape) they would have been hanged.

Stop supporting this human rights violation

[oblivious]

214. OK then, please give me one example of a teen being executed in Iran 'only' for being gay. Just one.

And stop accusing me of supporting humans rights violations. Your accusations are despicable. I have only pointed out that your statement that Iran executes teens for being gay is wrong.

If I am wrong, then you can surely provide an example.

[cboy4]

215. First of all, it's unbelievable that in a country that enforces sharia

law, you don't believe anyone of any age can be hanged.


Consensual gay sex in any form is punishable by death in the Islamic Republic of Iran. According to the website Age of Consent, which monitors such laws around the world, in Iran "Homosexuality is illegal, those charged with love-making are given a choice of four deathstyles: being hanged, stoned, halved by a sword, or dropped from the highest perch. According to Article 152, if two men not related by blood are discovered naked under one cover without good reason, both will be punished at a judge's discretion. Gay teens (Article 144) are also punished at a judge's discretion. (THAT OBVIOUSLY CAN MEAN DEATH) Rubbing one's penis between the thighs without penetration (tafheed) shall be punished by 100 lashes for each offender. This act, known to the English-speaking world as 'frottage,' is punishable by death if the 'offender' is a non-Muslim. If frottage is thrice repeated and penalty-lashes have failed to stop such repetitions, upon the fourth 'offense' both men will be put to death. According to Article 156, a person who repents and confesses his gay behavior prior to his identification by four witnesses, may be pardoned. Even kissing 'with lust' (Article 155) is forbidden. This bizarre law works to eliminate old Persian male-bonding customs, including common kissing and holding hands in public." And Outrage, in its release about the gay teens' execution, noted that, "according to Iranian human rights campaigners, over 4000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979. Last August, a 16-year-old girl , was hanged for 'acts incompatible with chastity,' ."

http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/07/2999.shtml


Why can you not say that it was wrong for hanging those two teenagers for allegedly raping a 13 year old?

You have not said it once.

Do you think this act deserved their death by hanging?

You have questionable views on humanity if you don't care about the hanging death of children for the alleged rape of another.

Why are you so pro-death penalty for gay people?

You seem to have no conscious.

[oblivious]

216. I have already said unequivocably in post 208 that I oppose the death penalty in all cases.

Yet, here you say I have not said it was wrong to hang those kids.

And you say I am pro death penalty for gay people.

What is one to do with you? You are simply a liar.

[cboy4]

217. Terrific, I'm glad to hear you say you condemn Iran's abominable

capital punishment law for homosexuality and other non-offenses.

Sharia Law is terrible when you can kill kids.

My main beef with you was how quickly you were running to the defense of Iran's brutal system of justice, despite your insistence you say you oppose capital punishment in all cases.

Calling me a liar is not going to silence me from trying to make sure people like you stop fudging the facts when it comes to that case.

There is no proof those kids raped the 13 year old. Period.

[oblivious]

223. Why should we believe you over Amnesty, Human Rights Watch + Intl Gay + Les Human Rights Commission?

What expertise or research do you have to offer to compare to theirs?

Nowhere did I come to the defence of Iranian justice. I simply called you on a popular propaganda statement currently being used to demonize Iran - that kids are hung simply for being gay. I asked you for just one example and I'm still waiting.

You also wrote in post 207: "ANYONE who is gay us hanged."

Why would you write that? You have no credibility whatsoever.

Perhaps you were not aware that you were promoting propaganda. Fine.

I'll let you have the last word. I have no wish to continue with you.

[cboy4]

228. I appreciate the last word, as you are completely talking out of both

sides of your mouth.

On one hand you say "nowhere did I come to the defence of Iranian justice," yet on the other hand, when I criticize the Iranian justice you allegedly don't defend, you accuse me of the demonization of Iran with "propaganda."

If you don't defend it, then you shouldn't have a problem with me criticizing it.

You need to read up on sharia law, and the punishments for homosexuality in Iran.

I'm finished holding your hand like a five year old.

I do give you credit for impersonating an agent of the Iranian government, trying to convince me that this horrible theocracy would never in a million years hang a kid for being gay.

What a joke.

You, and Iranian justice for homosexuality.

[Leopolds Ghost]

201. I thought the teen girl was pardoned because of public pressure n/t

[ThomCat]

206. I certainly hope so, but I had not heard that.

[Puglover]

225. self delete

redundant.

[RedCappedBandit]

195. No offense meant to anyone...

I think it was a great video, but isn't it odd/sad that a video depicting Iran as a "westernized" country should be the one to change peoples minds about going to war? :shrug: Am I even making sense?

[Leopolds Ghost]

203. Yeah, we had a big debate upthread about it

My feeling is that most Persians do not consider themselves "Westernized".

Like Japan and China, they began to modernize around the same time the Europeans did.

They are just less prosperous because of sanctions.

Saying Tehran is a "westernized" city, in my mind is like saying Rio De Janiero has become "westernized" because of its high rises, nightlife, etc.

Besides which, enormous mega cities will continue to influence world events. Are we going to concede that they are purely creatures of globalization and accept multinational corporatism, or are we going to challenge the notion that only white Westerners and the global elite, like to live in cities and go to nightlife?

(Disregarding the issue of most Persians are Caucasian or that many white people in the US are positively chauvinistic about their rural heritage and are traditionally hostile to living in big cities)

[RedCappedBandit]

219. Well I agree with you..

I only used the term Westernized out of ignorance.. I do agree with your points. Globalization is definitely a more appropriate term. I make no claims to know ANYTHING about Iran.. i really don't.. I just thought it was interesting seeing real pictures of the country, because it appears so similiar to this country. As somebody so ignorant about the country as I, it feels like the Media is trying to make us feel like all of these countries in that region are poor and uncivilized.
My point was basically.. I feel like Americans in general are more inclined to attack people who live in mud huts or the like, and that displays a major problem in our society. Or maybe i'm completely wrong.. i really don't know.. but its very interesting to think about and discuss.

[Leopolds Ghost]

224. I agree. I certainly don't know much about Iran, only what I've read.

A lot of folks don't know that 700 years ago, they were the "face of civilization", with all the art, architecture and science, and Europe was the "warlike frontier."

[brettdale]

202. I bet

Iran doesn't look like this in a years time.

A NewZealand basketballer is over in Iran, playing in their league, he said its just like living in a western country.

[Cha]

213. Beautiful pictures of Tehran.

I guess after April it will look like Iraq?

Why doesn't Congress Impeach his ass before anyone or anything else gets blown up?

[Megahurtz]

218. Wow. Pretty Place. n/t

[Shakespeare]

220. There's an Iranian mosque featured in the movie Baraka.....

....that has drawn audience-wide gasps of amazement every time I've been in a theater to see it (3 times now, thanks to American Cinemateque here in LA). Instead of the usual painted mosaic tiles, it's tiled floor to ceiling (including ceiling, columns, doorways) with tiny mirrors. It's like being inside a diamond, and there's no way words can do it justice. If you've seen the movie, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Every time Bush starts the saber-rattling, I wonder if we'll end up trashing that stunning work of art. :-(

[Marie26]

221. The Mausoleum of Shah-e Cheragh

I can't get over how beautiful the shrine is. It was built in 1349.

http://www.shirazcity.org/shiraz/Shiraz%20Information/Sightseeing/Shah-e-Cheragh%20e.htm#Pic

[Shakespeare]

222. I would give anything to visit that someday.

Thank you so much for finding those photos!!

[Marie26]

229. Sure

After reading your incredible description, I just had to see a picture! Thank you for broadening my horizons a little - I'd never heard of the Shrine, or "Baraka", but now I really want to see both. :)

[helderheid]

227. kick

[mdmc]

233. yes