Twenty One Gun Salute

[nadinbrzezinski]

I'd like to correct Keith... Senator Kennedy did get a 21 gun salute.

This is standard to any army veteran... check, and US Senator.

I can already hear it, but there were only THREE reports. Yes... here it is how it works

three shots, multiplied by seven riflemen...

3X7=21

This is protocol, and at times this tells me just how few truly serve...

That is all.

[spanone]

1. you are correct nbz

[rurallib]

2. for the year 1776 I have heard (1+7+7+6) = 21

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. It goes well before that and it is a very common military honor

world wide.

There is a moving history book about the first USN to enter a French port in the Gulf after the Paris Peace. The ship, a small frigate, was giving a 21 gun salute by the French Garrison. It is called The First Salute, http://www.amazon.com/First-Salute-Barbara-W-Tuchman/dp/0345336674

What is somewhat very American, but it still part of at least the British Tradition is TAPS... the Bris play Last POST... (I cannot believe I made that mistake)

Hell, there are so many similar traditions world wide, or at least in the West that if you have been to one military funeral in Canada and you go to one in Mexico... there are enough similar things you will know what to do.

Pieces of trivia one learns from teaching cadets how to march in unison and do the damn honors.

Hell, how you carry a flag and where is also very common world wide. Piece of trivia, the ONLY place where all flags fly at the same height is the UN... which drives all kinds of conniption to the American Right.

[NoPasaran]

11. The First Salute

Actually fired by the Dutch commander at St Eustatius in the Antilles, November 16, 1776. The first acknowledgment by a foreign power of American independence.

[Bucky]

8. The US military isn't very big on numerology. This just sounds like an urban myth

[happyslug]

4. Funnel Salutes are THREE VOLLEYS not 21 shots

The 21 gun salute is a salute DONE BY CANNON NOT Rifles. As to rifle salutes I even participated in one during my time in the National Guard, and it was three VOLLEYS of rifle fire (firing blanks) not 21 guns firing.

A 21 gun salute is always 21 canon being fired one after another (or multiple cannons being fired 21 times total). That is for head of states NOT a Senator. Ted Kennedy had served in the Army and this was entitled to a three volley salute at his funnel.

Here is Wikipedia report on it: Now Wikipedia is a good place to start a search but NOT always reliable. For example in the article I cite below it says when the M16 or other automatic of Semi-automatic weapon is used the automatic and semi-automatic mechanism is disabled for manually manipulating the action is part of the Salute. That is NOT why the rifle's action is manually worked after each firing. The M1, M14 and M16 rifles used in such salutes are gas operated weapons. No bullet the gas escaped the weapons to fast to operate the mechanism. Thus when blanks are used (and a "blank adapter" is not attached and for such salutes such adapters are NEVER attached) the mechanism will NOT work, so to get the next blank into the chamber the mechanism MUST be manually operated. It is part of the design of the weapon not "their semi-automatic gas action disabled"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-volley_salute

US Department of Veterans Affairs, which clearly say the 21 gun salute is for CANNON only:
http://www1.va.gov/opa/feature/celebrate/gunsalut.asp

Since the Civil War, Taps have also been played at Military Funeral. This started after an incident in the Civil War where a unit had to leave it recently buried dead without the traditional three volleys (the three volleys could NOT be given do to the possibility of revealing the unit's position). The Commander of that unit, before he left, played "Taps" instead and since that time as become part of a military funeral.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Three by seven, that is 21... this is not a canon salute

but the riflemen. It goes back a long time... and it is quite traditional in Western Military forces.

Don't confuse the two. The Cannon Salute, which they did not have... is a different animal. I am talking of the rifle volley

[happyslug]

6. My salute was only three men, thus 9 shots

If I remember right but the key was it was THREE VOLLEYS NOT 21 guns being fired.

Here is a report from Arlington National Cemetery, again emphasizing that it is three volleys NOT 21 guns (But apparently Arlington likes to use seven rifles thus you still have 21 rifles being fired).

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/customs.htm

Senators and officers below the Rank of General are NOT entitled to a Cannon Salute (Presidents, Vice Presidents are but NOT Senators). Arlington list of who can get a cannon salute:
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/arms.htm

More on the 21 gun salute AND the three volleys of "Musket fire":
http://www.jaycwood.us/Research/21-GunSaluteThreeVolleySalute.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. ok lets do this again

three volleys, seven riflemen= 21 shots.

This is what they did today

[happyslug]

9. My point is all Ted Kennedy was entitled to was three volleys

The fact that is was seven rifles being fired in unimportant for the military aspect of the salute. As I said above Arlington seems to try to do three volleys with 7 riflemen (probably to avoid complaints from people who do NOT know the difference) but the key is it is three VOLLEYS not 21 firings.

And that is supported by the Army Field Manual, FM-3-21.5 Drill and Ceremony Chapter 14, section 14-5:
http://rotc.okstate.edu/pdf/FM%203-21.5%20Drill%20and%20Ceremony.pdf

n. After Parade Rest has been commanded, the chaplain conducts the graveside service. At the conclusion of the benediction the NCOIC commands Firing party, ATTENTION and directs FIRING PARTY, FIRE THREE VOLLEYS. The CAO executes Present Arms. The firing party fires three volleys of blank cartridges, assumes the position of Present Arms at the command of the NCOIC,

The number in the firing party can be seven but also can be any number between 5 and 8, chapter 14-2 of the above Army Field Manual sets up the number of the people involved in the firing party:
a. A full military funeral normally consists of, or is supported by, the following elements:
• Casualty assistance officer (CAO).
• Noncommissioned officer in charge (NCOIC)—staff sergeant or above.
• Firing party (no more than eight, nor less than five, riflemen).
• Six pallbearers (at least one with the rank of sergeant or higher).
• One bugler to play “Taps” (or, as a minimum, a quality CD).

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. ok splain this then

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/27/politics/main5269875.shtml

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/jointservices/a/funeralhonors.htm

Of course there is more but that is ok, including DOD directives in PDF

[happyslug]

12. But the army field manual say 5-8 riflemen

Now I know I posted the quotes from the Army Field Manual AFTER you made you comments, but it is quite clear, the key is NOT 21 rifles being fired BUT three volleys of between 15-24 firings. AS I said above when I did a funeral, if I remember right, they was only three of us, but could have been five (But I doubt it was seven). The Army Field Manual sets the standards for Drill and Ceremony, A field Manual is viewed as an "ORDER" i.e. to be followed unless you have very good reasons NOT to follow it (i.e. a good enough reason for a Court Martial board to accept).

[HughMoran]

14. Thanks for all the info

I also wondered about the 7 x 3 argument of the O/P. Looks like Olbermann was right after all.

[Statistical]

15. Cvilians rarely get military things correct.

When I did funeral details for 6 months every single family referred to it as "the 21 gun salute", I never felt the need in their hour of grief to correct them and let them know it is the three volley salute.

Still it was a three volley salute and that is why there are 3 spent rounds inside the folded flag.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. I know civies rarely get thigs right

hubby is a USN Chief Retired, he was in charge of honors and ceremonies. we were talking about this.

I did my fair share (in another country) with few quirks that would get most Americans going WTF?

Now perhaps the USN does things differently, who knows? (Then again they have these burials at sea and actual gun salutes depending on ranks)

As I said, I went looking at DOD... no use in arguing this. he was given honors and that is what is important.

[Statistical]

13. Exactly right on the M16. I did 6 months on funeral detail when I was active duty.

You need to manually pull the charging handle to eject spent blank and load next round.

So you still get the commands READY-AIM-FIRE-READY-AIM-FIRE-READY-AIM-FIRE-PRESENT ARMS <taps plays> ORDER ARMS.

We were much harder critics of our service than any civilian would ever be. Never did any heads of states but we did provide final honors for a soldier who died in WWII and the grave was finally located in 1998 and was returned to the United for final resting.