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"Who would Jesus deny Health Care to?"

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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 05:41 PM
Original message
"Who would Jesus deny Health Care to?"
Thanks to the person who came up with this line - I got to use it today at church. Shut the person RIGHT UP who was babbling about not wanting *his* tax dollars to pay for "other people's health care." Then a couple of other folks and I had a discussion about "Sicko" and how companies are using "contractors" who they don't have to provide health insurance for -- engineers, computer professionals, etc. included.

As a positive thing, we did a quick prayer for the leaders of our country, the health care crisis and the economy. I feel like I am making a difference by being the "flaming liberal" who politely won't back down in a roomful of predominantly "Christian Conservatives."

:) Best, Ida
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bbinacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Maybe Pontius Pilate?
:evilgrin:
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GCP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good for you
Someone should run up a bumper sticker saying that.
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FLDCVADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Our parish
Had a flyer in the bulletin asking us to call our rep and Senators and ask them to vote against HR 3200 as currently written.
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HarveyDarkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. That should be the end of their tax exempt status
No ifs, ands or buts....
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FLDCVADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Sorry, but such a suggestion is utterly ridiculous
Tax exempt status can't be revoked for opposing legislation or policy positions. It can be revoked for explicitly opposing a partisan candidate or politcal party.

Whether I agree with the position of the diocese or not (and I don't), the Bishop (and parish priests) have every right under the law to encourage members to oppose legislation that they view as being immoral and/or against the teachings of the church.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Correct, but it's opposing OR supporting a candidate or party, isn't it?
What this means is that the laity must become more proactive in their own congregations by whatever means/groups/activities that are available to them. Some of these priests and ministers NEED to be put in their place - which some have CLEARLY forgotten.
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FLDCVADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Yes, opposing or supporting
a partisan candidate or party can cost a church its tax exempt status. Supporting or opposing a policy, law or proposed legislation can't.


Put in their place in what way? By prohibiting them from talking about the church's positions on issues? I don't have to agree with a position, but I'm certainly not in favor of telling a priest or pastor that they can't or shouldn't discuss it.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. No. By providing other perspectives on the issue(s). Counter - points.
Priests and ministers are not supposed to decide what's right and wrong for you. That is not their place.

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FLDCVADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. True, they are not supposed to decide what's
right and wrong for me. But they are supposed to decide and discuss what's right and wrong from the perspective of the church, which they did. And that is certainly "their place", whether I agree with them or not.

And it's ludicrous to suggest that any private organization, church or otherwise, should be forced to offer a perspective that is against their beliefs/teachings.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. That's not what I am suggesting. I think they should encourage the laity to decide for themselves.
It is the congregation who should be taking various perspectives, rather than someone taking their moral authority away from them.

Religious "leaders" should model the moral process, not decide it's outcomes.
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FLDCVADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Well, that's not how the Catholic Church
works. In fact, I don't know of many churches that would tell people it's OK to do something that the church considers to be wrong.

The diocese is in favor universal healthcare, but the abortion issue is what's causing the opposition to HR 3200 in our diocese.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Then they do not want mature moral agents standing on their own two feet. They want dependent
children.

Truth is by definition inevitable. Those who seek it will find it. In desiring the truth above all else, their errors teach them and they become more true. If they are denied this learning, by having "the truth" handed to them and accepting it by authority, how can they ever do what Jesus did? Follow the truth as far as it took him, even away from his own church to a great extent, staking his own soul on how true he could be without any other assurance, other than his desire for the truth, that he was in fact right, through the garden of Gesthemene where he anguished but went on anyway, and even up to those last few minutes on the cross when he wondered why his Father had forsaken him, he threw his soul into the void trying to do right because it was right not because he was told that it was. Had he been obedient to the moral authority of his time and followed without choosing for himself whether he thought the church true or not, none of that would have happened.
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FLDCVADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. They want people that believe
and follow the teachings of the Catholic church. I don't find that to be unusual in religious denominations.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. One doesn't need a church to believe. People are whos, by the way. nt
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FLDCVADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Ah yes,
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 09:37 PM by FLDCVADem
revert to grammar police behavior when all else fails.

***edited to add: bottom line is that there is still absolutely no reason why the parish should have its tax exempt status revoked over this. The priest was well within his rights and within the law to say what he said today.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Fails? You are the one who is saying that Christians do not need to follow Christ. The grammar
remark was just a little needle to see what you'd do. I'm not surprised that you are making more of it than you needed to.

I never said to take their tax-exempt status away from them.
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FLDCVADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Where do you get this stuff?
Where did I say that Christians don't need to follow Christ???

Make up shit much?
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Christ lived and died on his own moral authority without his church. You say we should be obedient
to the church.

Vulgarity, though not un-acceptable otherwise, is bad manners in religious discussions, by the way.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Where? Perhaps from the fact that there were quite a few churches selling War in this country not so
long ago. And I know that for a fact, so maybe I'm a little bitter about the moral authority you see there.

Wouldn't be the first time churches mislead folks and some genuinely good people still come out of them anyway.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. The point being that you must stake your own soul on it and if you always have a proxy in between
you and accepting that risk, you never actually do that.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. Good work. Speaking out is very important. It give courage to others to do the same.
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pkdu Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. Rush Limbaugh n/t
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. I'm glad you got some use out of it. I was attacked for bringing that up here
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madamesilverspurs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. To put it another way
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. ROFL! Thanks Madamesilverspurs!
:rofl:
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. No one, of course he could heal anything with a touch
seriously, if that guy comes back we need to hold on to him, not kill him this time. Instead lock him up and force him to heal our sick.

Maybe figure out a way to extract whatever property it is that does that and put it in a pill form.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. Or, simply ask Jesus to cure all the sick. Isn't it written in red letters
that whatever we ask in his name, that he will do?

We oould replace all the missing limbs and sightless eyes while we're at it.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. A question some Christains would prefer not to answer
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. I posted a similar quote on my FB recently... "WCWJD"
Whose claim would Jesus deny?
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
14. He healed a Roman centurian's kid! They were the occupying power!
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
15. Talking about values that people claim they live by is good tactics, but expect EVASION.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. P.S. You're going to have to use an oblique approach.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. P.P.S. Thank you for doing this. It is Very Important work and not many are doing it in the churches
:hug:
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
20. Jesus never asked Lazarus for a co-pay either
profitting from healthcare is immoral
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Death would be a pre-existing condition.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
47. That's a good one!
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Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
27. Get up, pick up your bed and walk, and pay the girl at the desk on your way out
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
28. The bottom line for the opposition IS that they are opposed to helping others
it doesn't matter much to them if they benefit or not, it's not about the cost, it's more about denying care to those that they hate.
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
31. Ida, I wouldn't deny healthcare to ANYONE in a country as wealthy as ours.
Thanks for asking!


Oh, and Jesus Christ wouldn't deny healthcare to anyone either. And His opinion holds much greater sway than mine.


:D


--Jesus (but not Christ, obviously)
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
33. To those he would torture?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
38. It's incumbent on liberal Christians, in my opinion, to stare down the
detractors -- as you did today at your church -- (to quell the doubting Thomases, in the hip parlance of the New Testament) -- and ask them if they really believe that the Galilean's ministry would have quibbled over where help and healing came from -- tax monies or otherwise -- when a genuine need presents itself.

It must be said to the fundamentalists who oppose health care reform that if they cannot connect the dots of visible poverty and visible emphasis on healing which were arguably the most visible components of Jesus' ministry, then their "Chrisianhood" isn't worth a bucket of yak piss.

Make that half a bucket.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I love the concreteness of this perspective: "visible poverty" &
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 10:10 PM by patrice
"visible emphasis on healing". Yes, there are "spiritual dimensions" but I fear some people have separated them from the here and now.

:hi:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Hi, patrice. Yep. The far-right fundies who oppose the president's
health care initiatives, I'm guessing, are the same rightwing fundies who thought a war in Iraq was a swell idea.

Not sure which New Testament they're consulting, but SOMEBODY needs a new editor!


:hi:
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I absolutely love it that people want to stand up and take their churches back from
some seriously screwed up leadership now. That gives this old (permanently) fallen Catholic hope.

:hug:
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Agree. On DU I try to make the distinction between the people-directed
and earth-centered Francis of Assisi model of Catholicism versus the upper echelon top-down rule-giving Vatican model.

What a world of difference.

Sounds like you've been fighting that good fight for a while, and I say more power to ya.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. I learned a lot from the church. I still love the Mass, but I can't lie about what's been going on
with all of this Militarism. It's gotten out of control.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. A bout of earnest roots work might be good. The Republicans need to
get back to Lincoln. The fundies need to get back to the Galilean.

They're drifted awfully far away from their sources.
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