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How many DUers support the teaching of Catholicism in the public schools (or any religion)?

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:26 PM
Original message
Poll question: How many DUers support the teaching of Catholicism in the public schools (or any religion)?
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 01:31 PM by IndianaGreen
It is only a matter of time before another genius in the State Department starts accusing Venezuela of being a dictatorship, so to preempt that, let's state that the mandatory teaching of Catholicism in the public schools is being done away. The Bolivarian Revolution has this Jeffersonian notion that public education should be secular. The main reason the reactionary Venezuelan Catholic Church is agitating against the new education law is because it challenges its preeminence, a privileged position the Church has enjoyed since the Conquista.

An education bill signed into law in mid-August by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez will remove religious education from the nation's schools, said Caracas Cardinal Jorge Urosa Savino. Government critics called the law's rapid approval process -- it was passed by the National Assembly and signed into law in the same week -- unconstitutional and said that the government did not consider outside opinions. One clause of the new law, which covers all levels of education and both public and private institutions, requires education to have a "lay character ... in all circumstances" and leaves religious education to families. The cardinal said the new law "does not take Urosa's God out of the schools, but takes out religion, a right which is in the constitution."

http://www.thebostonpilot.com/Briefs.asp?ID=5538

In recent months, powerful opposition groups, including the association of rectors of Venezuela's major public and private universities, all major opposition parties, much of the privately owned media, some teachers unions, and the Catholic Church waged a vicious media campaign against the law, in some cases asserting that the law will bring the country a step closer to totalitarianism.

Opponents alleged that the law is anti-democratic because it was not subject to enough public consultation. They also said it threatens religious education and the family, and politicizes the classroom. In June, radio commentators falsely reported that two articles in the law would permit the state to take children between the ages of 3 and 20 away from their parents for socialist indoctrination.

In response to the allegations, Education Minister Hector Navarro fervently denounced the lie that the state will be permitted to sequester children, and repeatedly pointed out that the procedures taken by the National Assembly for the discussion and passage of the law were fully in line with the national constitution.

The Minister said the opposition's claims are not only incorrect, they "form part of a campaign that seeks to generate fear in the population."

Also in response to the allegations, several National Assembly legislators and some less intense opponents of the law cited numerous articles in the law which support the role of the family as part of the educational community, establish that religious education must be carried out privately and not in public schools, and expressly prohibit political propaganda in the classroom.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/4722

On edit:

As it is true in far too many Latin American countries, Catholicism is the official religion.

Here is the relevant LBN thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. If Catholicism is taught in public schools...
it should be regulated to a mythology, history or sociology class, and all religions (or at least a good cross-section) should be covered as well. I don't think it hurts to educate our youth on religion's origins. When I was in college, the section of a course I took discussed all the world's religion's, including Animism and even Atheism (I cannot remember what course this was) and it was enough to make me start thinking about why I believed some of the things I did. As I clawed my way up out of all the brainwashing, I've never forgotten that class.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. We learned Greek and Roman myths in school, so I guess if Xtianity were taught as "Hebrew myths"
then that's okay.

Something tells me that's not how it would be taught, though.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. They should teach Santeria and Voodoo too.
Call the class "Stupid shit for exploiting primitives 101"
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. When Pope JPII went to Cuba, he bitched at Castro
not on account of any restrictions on religious freedoms, but because there was an increase in Santeria practices. The Pope was pissed that his precious religion had to compete with an ancient Afro-Cuban religion and he wanted restrictions placed on it. Fidel was unmoved.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Bullshit by any other name
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. It is actually a true story. Too bad you became distracted by the Monica scandal
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 01:50 PM by IndianaGreen
as did the entire MSM.

On edit:

JPII made his concerns about Santeria known in his last homily during the trip, at Santa Clara.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. No, I meant magic/religion = bullshit.
I have no doubt that the Pope would stick his nose into any manner of things which don't concern him or where he can cause hate and discontent. But whether it's Santeria, Catholicism, or some Old/New Age bullshit, I have little patience with it. I am mildly interested in the native religions of Western Europe and Buddhism, but not in any magical sense.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. If you get curious, you might want to read about Santeria
a fascinating African religion which adopted Catholic symbols as a way to avoid persecution. For example, one of the Santeria gods is represented by a Catholic woman saint, Santa Barbara.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. You don't get it. Just because something is tribal, African , or Eskimo doesn't give it a pass.
I don't find it more interesting or textured or cute than mainstream religions. If I wanted to get wrapped up in something like that I would default to a native British, Celtic, or Norse religion. I don't consider superstition to be charming, I consider it to be destructive.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. Taught only for an awareness of crap to be on guard against. Like Mr. Stranger Danger.
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floridablue Donating Member (996 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bible School, Sunday School, Bible Classes, call it what you may
Why can't religion be done this way and get the hell out of public schools. Do we then have to force our public school teachers to study Catholism so they can teach it? What a bunch of bull shit.
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TheMightyFavog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. When studying world history, particularly European history, you should have a base knowledge
The Catholic Church plays a very important role for good or for ill in European History from the Fall of Rome to the Reformation, to the Fall of the Iron Curtain.

As long as the teaching stays in a strictly historical context, I'm fine with it.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Historical and cultural.
When I was in public High School, I took a course in 9th grade called "Humanities." One quarter on music history and appreciation, one quarter of art and appreciation, one quarter of religion and appreciation.

It was my first exposure to Eastern Religions here in the Deep South and really opened my mind to the world.

Of course religion is viewed by many DUers as evil and the practice of "idiots" so this concept will go right over their heads.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. As long as the whole history is taught and from an academic perspective,
I'm fine with that. Problem is they tend to leave out the best bits, the mass-murders and genocide, the destruction and suppression of knowledge, etc.


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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Yeah, teachings ABOUT the church rather than OF the church are essential to grasp history
Of course, teachings about other major religions are required for understanding much history too. But somehow, most get glossed over ;)
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Union Yes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why not Satanism?
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Some fundies think they're the same thing.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. Do you mean teaching about religion or being taught to be in a religion?
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 02:21 PM by onehandle
Because those are two totally different things. But of course many DUers will see religion in any context in the latter.

I want my kids to be taught about the different major religions because I don't want them to grow up closed-minded.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. In Venezuela, Ecuador, and other LA countries, Catholicism is taught in public schools
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 02:25 PM by IndianaGreen
and the Catholic religion is the official religion. Not the sort of stuff that our Founding Fathers believed in.

The new Venezuelan law makes public schools secular, while recognizing that religious education is a right that belongs in the home.
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HowHasItComeToThis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. WATCH OUT FOR THE GREAT PROPHET ZOG
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. People love to bitch and complain about Hugo, but I think he is right on this issue.
Taxpayer dollars should not be used to prop up any religion, no matter how deeply entrenched or powerful it is in society. If people have a problem with the law, take it up with the National Assembly. They wrote it.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. my methodist minister came back from south america and...
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 02:57 PM by madrchsod
gave a sermon about his experiences in the 1950`s south america. he described the poverty he witnessed and then he accused the catholic church of basically burning incense instead of lifting people out of poverty. i was 8 years old at the time and i`ll never forget his words.god must not have minded what he said.the minister passed away at the age of 90.



there are priests and nuns who have given their lives for the people...but there are not enough.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Not only that, they teach the poor that the more they suffer in this life, the
higher their reward will be in heaven. I don't know if they do this to give the poor and downtrodden hope, or if it's a cynical way of propping up the ruling class who gives them money.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Not all of them
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Did he speak out against Methodist discriminaton against glbt people,
or did he only criticise other faiths?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
18. Sorry for my knee-jerk post in that thread, I was wrong.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. When the Church uses state sponsored schools to teach
religion, it runs the risk of the state deciding what religion is.

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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. I would LOVE...
to have religions taught in the schools...

This is an old one... no link, sorry.
- - - - -
Dear John,
As you know, we've been working real hard in our town to get prayer back
in the schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led
prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not
wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during
the prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to
the Supreme Court and get that old devil-inspired ruling reversed.
Naturally, we were all excited by the school board's action. As you
know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more, though) is now in the
second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the
other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.
After the first day of school, I asked him, "How did the prayer time go?"
"Fine."
"Did many kids go out into the hallway?"
"Two."
"Excellent. How did you like your teacher's prayer?"
"It was different, Dad. Real different from the way you pray."
"Oh? Like how?"
"She said, 'Hail, Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners...'"
The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn't
prejudice against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy being transferred to
a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away.
At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped
out of his chair, sat cross-legged on the floor, closed his eyes, raised his
hands palms up and began to hum.
You'd better believe I was at the principal's office at eight o'clock the next morning.
"Look," I said. "I don't really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists,
but I would feel a lot more comfortable if you could move Billy to a room where the
teacher practices and older, more established religion.'"
That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.
"I don't think your going to like Mrs. Nakasone's prayer, either, Dad."
"Out with it."
"She kept calling God 'O Great Budda...'"
The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot.
"Look, I don't want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever or to Buddha.
I want him to have a teacher that prays in Jesus' name!"
"What about Bertha Smith?"
"Excellent."
I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith's prayer. I was standing on
the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.
"Well?" I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.
"Okay."
"Okay what?"
"Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus name, amen - just like you."
I breathed a sigh of relief. "Now we're getting some place."
"She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer," said Billy.
I beamed. "Wonderful. What was the verse?"
"Let's see..." he mused for a moment. " 'And behold, they began to pray;
and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.'"
We had reached the car. "Fantastic," I said, reaching for the door handle. Then I paused.
I couldn't place the scripture. "Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?"
"Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18."
"Third what?"
"Nephi," he said, "It's in the Book of Mormon."
The school board doesn't meet for a month. I've given Billy very definite instructions that
at prayer time each day he's to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting.
If they don't do something about this situation, I'll sue. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme
Court if I have to. I don't need the schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion.
We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much.
Give my love to Sandi and the boys.
Your buddy,
Juan
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tabbycat31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
26. public schools are secular
however when taught as a comparative religion class I don't see a problem with it. I personally think everyone should take a comparative religion class (taught Christians believe X, Jews believe Y, Muslims believe Z, etc)
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Comparative religion is a course best left to...
college level students. Too many comparative religion classes in public schools teach with a bias of one sect or another.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
28. I think that public schools should be secular and that sovereign nations
should make these decisions for themselves.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
30. Where's your God now, Moses?!
--- Edward G. Robinson, The Ten Commandments
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