Did Fitz know about the OTHER computers?

[lovuian]

If he didn't maybe there is something in there for his case???

[H2O Man]

1. That is

a very important question.

[FourScore]

44. An excellent question.

And what if he did know?

[TBUSA]

77. Fitz HAD to know.

Abramoff is supposedly spilling his guts and he would have used those
Domains. Also, the investigation phase of Scooters trial would have had to turn up the existence of those trails.I find it unbelievable that the GRand Jury inquisitions, the 2 year investigation, and the Discovery phase did not uncover the trail.
Fitz was focused on a narrow goal and maybe the RNC connection was irrelevant. Maybe that is what is contained in the reasoning of pre-trial Judge who wrote of a Larger issue.

[lovuian]

81. was Fitz narrowed goal on purpose to give the Plames a

conviction and sacrificial lamb to shut the case down
was he doing damage control for Bush And Rove
I think he was walking the line but he will find Special Counsel can't walk the line

Libby said he was just the one to take the bullet for Rove

Congress needs to bring in Fitz and ask him if he knew?

[maddezmom]

2. excellent question

Would like to know the answer, too.

[lovuian]

3. Cause were they hiding the emails from Fitz

isn't that Hiding evidence from Counsel? Ralston had three systems she was working with

[H2O Man]

7. I think that

there are relatedissues that involve her and the "confusion" that reduced the record of Rove's involvement in the case. Let's consider a paragraph from the 8-3-05 New York Times:

"At one point, the aides were asked why Mr. Cooper's call to Mr. Rove was not entered in Mr. Rove's office telephone logs. There was no record of the call, the person who has been briefed said, because Mr. Cooper did not call Mr. Rove directly, but was transferred to his office from a White House switchboard. The aides have worked closely with Mr. Rove, screening his calls and coordinating his activities with other White House officials. Mr. Hernandez had been an aide to President Bush since his successful campaign for governor of Texas in 1994, and Ms. Ralston is known as one of Mr. Rove's most trusted associates."

They had organized a system that demonstrates their attempt to cover their tracks. Again, I'm reminded of Rove telling a reporter from the Financial Times in 12-03, "We have rolled the earthmovers in over this one," when speaking of the Plame scandal.

[lovuian]

13. Exactly H2O and if we discovered new computer systems

then Fitz when he confiscated all Roves government computers did NOT get ALL of them unless Fitz did and knew about the RNC computer system???

[H2O Man]

19. Yes.

It would possibly result in both obstruction of justice (failure to provide the information) and perjury (lying about it) charges. I think this is worth our contacting Mr. Fitzgerald about, although I suspect he is well aware of it already.

[lovuian]

32. If he doesn't know then he needs to know

and Libby's lawyer will probably be asking for the emails on the appeal but will they be destroyed before that???

[fooj]

66. He REALLY said that?

Unbelievable. :grr:

[Gregorian]

4. It's something we're all asking ourselves.

Maybe if we go back and find out who discovered the email servers, and how they did it, we could better answer whether Fitzgerald might know.

[lovuian]

5. If Fitzgerald knew about the other servers won't this reflect on

his job as counsel for not bringing Rove under oath for testimony and Fitz did not close the door on his investigation right?

[H2O Man]

8. Rove was under

oath each of the 5 times he testified to the grand jury.

[lovuian]

10. Then on the transcripts it should be there that Rove

gave him all the information on Plame and yet if the computer systems have Plamegate stuff on it then Rove would have lied under oath

[H2O Man]

17. Yes.

It could pose a couple serious problems for Mr. Rove. Before he testified, the DoJ had ordered folks to turn over everything relating to Plame, Wilson, etc. Those documents were made public as exhibits during the Libby trial. If he failed to do so, and then lied about it, he could face obstruction of justice and perjury charges.

[lovuian]

21. Bingo and Now Fitz hears there is 3 Computer systems

running out of Roves freakin offices and I bet Rove didn't turn any of them over cause he knew he was in Violation of the Hatch Act
and now look they used the system to massacre the attorneys

You see this is all interconnected and its ALL coming out of the ROVE Machine

[MidwestTransplant]

28. VERY IMPORTANTLY, if he didn't know, the FBI can go in and mine all the emails.

I don't know if the Senate can get them to do that otherwise. The FBI has the best technology to put the pieces back together.

That said, I have a hard time believing Rove would be so dumb as to just flat lie to the FBI and Fitz. There would be zero plausible denialibility in this case. I would imagine the FBI knew about the other accounts because others turned over emails too and someplace would have been emails from Rove or whomever from the outside system.

[lovuian]

34. If the FBI knew then they knew they were violating the Hatch Act

but yes they can Mine the computers your getting the idea

Which means that Ralston Armitage and all the others of the Rove machine were contacting behind fitz's back via emails on the RNC server
Doesn't Fitz need to know if anything is on those computers

[Morgana LaFey]

71. Not dumb -- ARROGANT

Rove's not at all dumb. But he's arrogant as all get out, and arrogance will often trip up the very smartest of jerks and criminals.

[myrna minx]

61. Larry Johnson has now weighed in on this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x638728

[H2O Man]

62. Thank you.

Very interesting. Very interesting, indeed.

[jackstraw45]

12. ""If new information comes to light...."

Investigation is NOT closed completely...

[lovuian]

25. Bingo and I remember Fitz had a smile when he said it

Love that man's smile :)

[Spazito]

16. I think he did know based on some of his comments re e-mails

(I cannot remember if they were in a response brief to the judge or otherwise) and this may be exactly why he did not say the investigation is closed and made the point by stating this:

taken from the firedoglake live blogging of Fitzgerald's press conference after the Libby conviction)

"Is your investigation over now? Fitzgerald says that he does not expect to file any further charges. If information comes to light or if new information comes forward that warrants further investigation, we will do that. The case is now inactive. We are going back to our day jobs."

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/06/fitzgerald-post-trial-press-conference/

Even being aware of the other servers, he may not have had the pre-requisite evidence tying this outside server/s would fit within the "four corners" of his investigation mandate and, therefore, allow a subpoena or subpoenas.

[lovuian]

35. Well if I was Libby's lawyer I ask for those computers emails

for my clients sake and then Fitz's case might be in jeopardy

I have always suspected libby took the fall for Rove

[Spazito]

39. The old saw for lawyers remains true....

"never ask a question you don't already know the answer to" and that would apply to the Libby case as well. Unless his lawyer knows, without question, NONE of the e-mails would incriminate his client he would avoid the issue of the outside server like the plague, imo.

[H2O Man]

42. Libby was

convicted for lying to the FBI investigators and the grand jury. It is not possible that Rove's previous e-mails would have any value in Libby's conversations with either the FBI or the grand jury.

[Spazito]

49. There is no question the "missing" e-mails and the issue of

the outside servers involve more than Rove, we know from the WH itself that at least 22 persons were accessing these outside servers. My point in my previous post was merely to point out there may be evidence damaging to Libby to be found on those outside servers wrt to the Plame outing or, indeed, other illegal activities that could invite new charges and unless Libby's lawyer knew, with absolute certainty, no such damaging e-mails existed he would not be asking about the servers at all.

It is evident I was not clear in my previous post that my response was meant to be in a more generic sense than the narrow focus on Rove and any of his e-mails that may be, at the moment, missing.

I apologize for not being more clear in the initial post.

[H2O Man]

51. I was agreeing with you.

I think I needed to be clearer -- I was commenting in agreement with you.

[Spazito]

57. LOL and thank you!

I misread your post, the fault was mine and not yours.

[lovuian]

52. I understand and great points heres another one

Armitage Ralston maitlin Ari did they use the email servers too??? Cheney did he??? Bush did he???

all these people testified under oath are they in jeopardy of perjury because of Fitz's questioning???

[Spazito]

58. The giant octopus that was revealed with it becoming known

these outside servers/e-mails/etc. existed has more potential arms than I can get my head around. The very fact, imo, the WH has come out publicly stating they have "lost" thousands of those e-mails tells me they are much more terrified at what would be revealed by those e-mails than just about anything else.

[lovuian]

60. Yes and Congress and Fitz have rights to get those emails

let the Bush administration fall down in ashes and may all the corrupt people in this army go down for perjury and obstruction of justice Libby will have company in prison

[lovuian]

50. Thats my point H2O he is looking at going to prison

if he makes a deal then his sentence may go lighter and wasn't the point of his defense was he was just doing his masters bidding
Its just shows me that they told Libby to take the fall for all of them

[bunny planet]

41. its my understanding that this outside email communication only came to

light just recently. Abramoff inadvertently spilled the beans by mentioning in a WH email to someone (perhaps Ralston) that he made a mistake and should have used the outside super double secret email accounts. I think it was found in the Justice Dept. document dump of WH emails in the past month well after Fitz's trial of Libby was over. I think these new accounts could be cause to reopen the investigation he's been charged with and go after Tubby McTreason, who after all, has lied,really, one too many times.

[fooj]

67. Tubby McTreason! LMAO!

:rofl:

Good one! :thumbsup:

[bunny planet]

72. A Stephanie Millerism, I can't take credit for it.

[mod mom]

6. Sure would like to hear him comment on this!

[lovuian]

9. He siezed their computers shouldn't he have gotten these

computers too... Isn't hiding evidence against the law... I bet you Plamegate stuff is on those computers ???
talking points relayed to the news media on how to schmear Wilson???

[DemReadingDU]

11. Swopa: I think Fitzgerald was aware

Swopa: As I mention in the Needlenose post, Fitz wrote a letter to Libby's attorneys a year ago in which he said, "we have learned that not all email of the Office of Vice President and the Executive Office of President for certain time periods in 2003 was preserved through the normal archiving process on the White House computer system."
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2007/3/4/135310/0946/56#c56


http://www.needlenose.com/node/view/3884

[lovuian]

15. Ah Ha there it is Fitz knew about the other system

maybe he disclosed it to Congress and yet why didn't he go after them?

[DemReadingDU]

20. Not sure why Fitz didn't pursue this angle.

I guess this is the 'Easter egg' that Fitz dropped when he won conviction of Libby and handed over the investigation to Congress. Maybe this made more sense for Congress to continue investigations?

[lovuian]

22. Dean said a Independant Counsel INVESTIGATES

Fitz will be left hanging here if he doesn't now ask to get the emails from the Rove office also

I have been waiting for him to give a statement on this
and he has been quiet

[DemReadingDU]

29. This has bugged me too

If Fitz knew, and we think he did, why didn't Fitz pursue this aspect?Or why didn't Fitz hand over the info pertaining to the additional email systems to Congress? maybe he did?

:eyes:


Edit to add: The golden nuggets are in the documents from the trial for people to read :)

[lovuian]

31. Thats the big question did he discover the email system

or did Rove hide the system from Fitz which means Rove lied and purposely hid the computer system from Rove

and then we get the Attorney Massacre...

The Attorneys were going after Rove's machine
and had to be stopped they were the only ones getting people to prison

Congress is too slow

[DemReadingDU]

33. Ah!

Maybe Rove took a black marker and crossed thru the addresses from those other email accounts when he 'remembered' those forgotten emails?

edit to add: Rove didn't exactly lie, but he wasn't being truthful either.

[lovuian]

36. So Fitz got fooled by Rove thats not going to sit well with Fitz

cause it makes him look like he was fooled
I find it more plausible that he knew and he wanted them to hang themselves not thinking that they would fire all the attorneys

[DemReadingDU]

45. Nah, I'm not saying Fitz was fooled. Fitz is too smart.

I think Fitz knew what Rove was up to, and knew it was a matter of time before the 'Easter eggs' were found!

:party:

[lovuian]

54. Well those are some freakin Easter eggs

I bet Condi Maitlin Armitage Ari Scottie the whole bunch of them used it Cheney and Bush too

[H2O Man]

38. No.

Mr. Fitzgerald did not "hand over" anything to Congress.

[DemReadingDU]

46. Right, everthing is in the documents from the trial

Lots of golden nuggets in them for people to find who are willing to read thru them

:)

[H2O Man]

47. Yep.

And I'd wager that there are a few folks who have studied those documents, from the pre-trial motions to the trial exhibits, closely.

[DemReadingDU]

48. Yep!

I know you have read thru many, if not all of them!


Thanks for all the highlights you were giving us throughout the Libby trial!

:)

[Spazito]

56. Not only the documents you mention in your post but, also,

information Fitzgerald specificly pointed out in his letter in response to Congressman Waxman's invitation to testify:

Link to Fitzgerald's letter:

http://oversight.house.gov/Documents/20070314180406-55978.pdf

(analysis taken from firedoglake)

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/15/looseheadthoughts-rule-6e/

First of all, as The Fitzgerald response letter points out, there is a vast body of information already publicly available in the form of trial testimony, and exhibits including the wonderland of information included in the unsealed grand jury testimony of Scooter Libby-in fact Pat highlights that in his letter. Parsing that information will be a goldmine I'm sure.

- Remember the way Pat has framed the DOJ policy in his letter "non-public information about pending law enforcement matters" in a paragraph that is talking about Libby's motion for a new trial and planned appeal. So, I read that to mean any crimes not charged or any suspects not indicted are not involved in "pending law enforcement matters." Remember, Pat said unless something changed, they were all going home to their day jobs.

-This is where things might get good. You may recall that there is some significant information that came to the investigation outside of the presence of the grand jury and not as a direct result of a grand jury subpoena. So, even if the material was later presented to the grand jury, if you knew of its existence from another source you could ask for it. Shorter version- you can't ask for "everything you presented to the grand jury but got from a none grand jury method", but you can ask for "the notes of that interview I know you had with so and so before the grand jury was empanelled." See the difference? It's a little subtle, but very significant.

Let me give you an example, we know (because it was in the newspapers) that PatFitz interviewed the President and Vice-President outside the presence of the grand jury. IIRC there was no GJ subpoena. I assume, that the focus of the interview was not whether or not Libby had committed perjury, but rather the possible "underlying crimes" (OT- somewhere in the vast FDL post reservoir is a post from me explaining just how silly the "no underlying crime" canard really is. We may see it soon) so although "non public" the information would not at this juncture be related to a "law enforcement matter" and therefore would not fall under this DOJ policy-which BTW is ONLY a policy and does not have the effect of a rule of law and does not trump a Congressional subpoena-if Rep. Waxman or anybody else on the Hill was in the mood to show a heavy dose of testosterone.

[garybeck]

78. Fitz had many opportunities to do things and he didn't

just ask yourself. what would Ken Starr have done if he were in Fit's shoes?

[Gregorian]

24. He was onto it.

Violation of preserving White House records is not in and of itself a big crime. But it may become useful as part of a bigger scheme, or racket.

It's over our heads, I think. But quite intriguing to just follow.

[bunny planet]

43. I think that was referring to emails that were hidden from him on the WH mail

server that Rove had kept from him. When they were retrieved, Rove had to come back in and testify yet again. I don't think Fitz is referring to RNC email accounts, the information about them being used illegally to avoid the Presidential records act has just come to light. Even if Fitz knew about the RNC email accounts he would'nt have had any evidence giving him suspicion that they contained anything pertinent to his particular case until now. IMHO

[Ganja Ninja]

14. Tom Hartman just said that the White House only turned over

the .gov e-mails in the Plame case. Perhaps Fitz knew about the other system perhaps not but I think I would prefer if the congress start their own investigation.

[lovuian]

18. Fitz is a Independant Counsel granted certain priveledges

it makes him Apolitical ...if they violated the Hatch Act then he should prosecute them or derelict of his duty as a Independent Counsel sorry He can't just watch a crime happen and not give JUSTICE

[Ganja Ninja]

23. That's why I'm saying I'd like to see a congressional investigation.

If Fitz wants to reopen the case he can. I would simply feel better if a congressional investigation went along side by side to make sure that nothing gets overlooked again.

[lovuian]

27. I want both to investigate because Fitz has gotten Rove

under Oath and this proves that Libby was right in a way he was a sacrifice for Rove
this really helps Libby out

Libby's attorney should request those emails also for his client's sake
there might be something in there unless he knew and then Libby did take the bullet for Rove

of which I think Libby did
they assured him a pardon if he did

[mmonk]

70. Maybe he is anticipating team Libby

trying to bring them out.

[Garbo 2004]

74. Fitzgerald isn't an Independent Counsel. The Independent Counsel law expired in 1999. n/t

[lovuian]

75. What was he then I'm sorry what was his title

wasn't he given special privelidges???

[lovuian]

76. A Constitutional Crisis is here

Its about time Congress figures out this country was taken over by a cabal in the year 2000 and they sat and watched it and was part of it as well as the Supreme Court

[Garbo 2004]

79. Special Counsel. He had the delegated power of the AG to act as the AG within the scope

of the Plame leak investigation. That was to give him independence within the DOJ in his conduct of the investigation and to determine what if any charges he would seek.

But not the same as an Independent Counsel under the expired law. No reports to Congress, for one notable example.

[lovuian]

80. Thanks So he was Special Counsel not Independent

Special is it more important than Independent ???

Fitz is in a bind but being the smart man he was with the smile on his face he left the door open to investigate further

He was given the task of INVESTIGTING the Plame case and see if Rove was obstructing justice
evidence is showing that Rove deleted emails he wasn't suppose to
and he violated the Hatch Act

Facts
Rove was not prosecuted by Fitz and neither was Cheney
Fitz was not one of the attorneys fired but was given undistinguishable rating

Fitz is going to have to reopen the case or look like he did Gonzales bidding and prosecute Libby the sacricial lamb for the protection of Rove and Cheney

Congress will be asking some of those questions
but I wonder if someone in the Fitz investigation squealed to Congress about the Republican network

Is this a trap to nail Rove and it shows Rove has know fear of going to jail to fire all the attorneys

Fitz needs to step up here and give us a statement on where he stands

[Catherine Vincent]

26. Oh goody! A Fitz thread!

I think he should continue with the investigation.

[lovuian]

30. Look whose here the cat girl LOL!!!

knew you would love it

[bunny planet]

37. I was just wondering that very same thing.

I think he clearly did not know about them, he is a very thorough individual and would not have ignored that treasure trove of information. I'll bet little Scootie Scoot was one of the people using outside email accounts to avoid scrutiny

[senseandsensibility]

40. According to a post above

he did know. The mystery deepens.

[underpants]

53. BACKGROUND information for this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x634445

[Supersedeas]

59. thanks for the link

[myrna minx]

64. Thanks for putting this together.

This is important background.

[lovuian]

55. If Rove and Gonzales gave me Indistinguishable rating

I take their Butts down and show them dinstinguished work

Fitz wasn't in on it that I'm sure but he isn't through he needs to INVESTIGATE and get his rating back :rofl:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

63. if they hid info from him, obstruction of justice suddenly takes on

a whole new picture and meaning. I mean, all the way to the top of the VP's office, and deep inside of the Whore House

sorry. WHITE house.

[lovuian]

65. And if others knew and didn't tell him or give up emails

and they find them in there

such as
mary Maitlin
Ari
Armitage
Rove secretary
Ralston

well there must b a whole bunch of interesting goodies in there

[fooj]

68. Didn't Fitz tell Ari he had immunity

for ONLY the info presented in the case. I think I remember him REALLY emphasizing that.

[KoKo]

69. Yeah....he told them to SAVE ALL E-MAILS! I think "Last Hurrah & Firedoglake" have it

over there as to how FITZ as a Special Prosecutor told them this.

It's up to our "Corrupt/Gonzales Legal System" to HONOR THIS?

But..they...are ABOVE THE LAW OF THE LAND.

:shrug:

[orleans]

73. well, if he didn't know he certainly knows now. and

if he knew and didn't act on it--why the hell not?

will he act on it now? and if not, why the hell not?