Judge Reportedly Questioned Whether Woman Was Raped Because She Was "On Top"

[Control-Z]

Newly elected judge Kevin Fine isn't your typical jurist -- he's been frank and outspoken about his missteps in life, which include a cocaine addiction.

Now he finds himself dealing with another alleged misstep -- accusations that he told a rape victim in his court that he didn't believe she was raped because she was "on top" during the act.

There are no transcripts yet to the July 31 hearing, which came after the defendant was convicted and before he was sentenced. Transcripts are being prepared for appeals. But observers in the courtroom have spread word of the alleged comment, and it will likely come up...

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2009/08/judge_reportedly_questioned_wh.php

I just happen to have served on the jury of a rape trial that ended about a week ago. There is no doubt that a woman can be raped, even if she's on top.

[Behind the Aegis]

1. If this is true, he should NEVER preside over a rape trial again!

Of course, there are those who still think husbands can't rape their wives, gay men can't be raped, women can't rape another woman, and women can't rape men. Anyone who thinks the aforementioned are true are fucking morons!

[Control-Z]

3. You would not believe

what a couple of the old white men on the jury I served on believed. Well, pretty much everything you listed.

When you add a gun, a knife, a beating, a threat...literally anyone can be raped. They can even be forced to be on top, take off their own clothes, give oral...

[Behind the Aegis]

7. I would believe it.

My partner just sat on a trial for aggravated rape. Violence against women is often misdirected (it's the victim's fault) or dismissed (she's just being over-emotional/time of the month/trying to exact revenge). I find it amazing that in this day and age people still don't understand the nature of rape, its causes, or how it is accomplished.

[Control-Z]

11. Being on that jury

really opened my eyes. I thought it took a certain kind of creep to believe that way (in this case, that she deserved what she got), but these old guys appeared to be really nice guys, until we started deliberations. I was stunned.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. It can be very eye-opening.

Some of the most depraved people and biggest bigots seem to be the nicest people, but they always reveal the dark beating mass which is supposed to be their heart.

[Odin2005]

29. My friend was accused of "attention seeking behavior" after she was raped.

She has some mental health issues along with physical disability caused by Shaken Baby Syndrome and can get a bit emotional over little things. The glib dismissals really pissed me off.

[Control-Z]

32. I thought of you

and your friend when I heard this on the radio. I remember you posting a little about what happened to her in another thread. It makes me so angry. It is horrible enough to be raped but to have people call you a liar after, to blame you for what happened - I can't even tell you how it upsets me.

[Odin2005]

53. Thank you!

It made me furious. Typical "She's just being hysterical" sexist crap.

[moggie]

19. He should not preside over ANY trial

In this trial, the perp had already been found guilty. It's the jury's job to decide matters of fact, and the judge's job to decide matters of law. Once the jury has decided that rape took place, it's not for the judge to say that they're wrong: that's what an appeal is for.

[Heidi]

2. Some of the comments at that link are just vile.

:(

[Control-Z]

5. I didn't read the comments.

I'm not sure I want to. :puke:

[Behind the Aegis]

9. Never...NEVER...read the comments; it only causes pain and anger.

Pain from slapping your head and rolling your eyes so far back in your head you think they will stick and anger, well, for the obvious hate and stupidity. Again, never read the comments unless you are ready to spread the pain!

[Odin2005]

54. Ugh, I shouldn't have looked. That's just disgusting.

:puke:

[Missy Vixen]

4. "No" means "No", and the position doesn't matter

Looks like the judge needs to find another line of work...

:mad:

[Control-Z]

6. You expect that (unfortunately)

from certain men, but a judge? He needs to go. What an creep.

[bkkyosemite]

8. Lately I've been calling a lot of people idiots (repubs) but this beats the cake idiot!

[Control-Z]

18. As if the woman

hadn't been through enough. And this is exactly the kind of shit that makes women reluctant to report rape, or testify at trial. What an asshole.

[bkkyosemite]

20. True true........

[flvegan]

10. Probably no difference in "difficulty" in raping a woman even though she's on top

as horrid as I feel for even thinking about how it would be possible. Rape invokes a certain form of...rage in me. Almost blind, irrational rage.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Control-Z]

16. The trial I just finished -

the woman took off her own clothes and laid down on the bed. But it was after having been assaulted/strangled, pinned down, and threatened (her life). She was willing to do whatever he told her, to save her life. He could have easily told her to be on top and she would have complied.

Yeah, it brings out rage in me too.

[omega minimo]

37. "Violence" -- the word is "violence," not "difficulty." "Difficult" for whom?

From whose point of view are you "even thinking about how it would be possible"?


This sounds like some still see it as a sexual act, rather than a violent act.


Rape is violence. Violation. That's what to keep in mind when "even thinking about how it would be possible" -- if that's really necessary.

[flvegan]

43. Your two deleted subthreads above wasn't clue enough for you?

If you're seeking to be outraged by misrepresenting the intent of what I said, then mission accomplished. Go fucking stalk someone else.

[omega minimo]

44. Would you mind reading the post and answering the questions? Considering how language matters?

:thumbsup: I'm sure you can. Unless you want to hide behind your little fit.

Please read the post as written and drop the 'tude. We can all learn from whatever your response is.

Language matters.

[flvegan]

45. No.

Last night your little accusation that my thoughts/statements were alike the rapist's in this story earns you a big, fat "screw you"

Go stalk someone else.

[omega minimo]

48. Yes. Language matters.

And I clarified the wording to prevent that misunderstanding. Your words create some misunderstanding, hence the questions.

Your refusal to answer them indicates you won't or can't acknowledge the impression of your post and clarify, or acknowledge language matters.

Your false accusation of stalking and "screw you" just suggests more denseness.

You really don't get the concept, do you? YOU'RE RIGHT!! You don't have to DISCUSS anything. Being called on your language, asked to clarify, "Screw you!!"

:hi:

[omega minimo]

49. and I'm sorry I offended you

:toast:

[Odin2005]

55. Wow, WTF what happened in the deleted sub-thread?

Do I want to know? :scared:

[WinstonSmith4740]

14. I heard this story years ago...

It may be an urban legend, but it still holds true.

During a rape trial, the defendent's lawyer made the claim that a woman can't be raped if she fought back at all, so she had to consent to the sex. To prove his point, he spun a soda bottle on the table and challanged anyone to stick a pencil into the neck of the bottle while it was spinning. The prosecuting attorney went over, picked up a heavy object, smashed the bottle to pieces, and then stuck the pencil through what was left of the neck of the bottle. Trial over.

Like I said, it might not actually be true, but I'd sure like to think it is.

[bkkyosemite]

17. Now that proves a big point. Glad he did that!

[SwissTony]

23. I heard of a similar stunt in a British Court many years ago

This was in the days of inkwells and pens you had to dip into the inkwell to get ink on the nib. The defending council gave the victim a pen and held an empty inkwell on a surface in front of her. Whenever she tried to put the pen in the well, he'd move it and she'd miss. The accused was acquitted.

This story was related to me by a RW colleague and to him it proved it couldn't be rape. The logic of the comparison escaped and disgusted me. I then pointed out that had I been given that challenge, I would have stuck the nib in the council's hand...hard!!!!! Subsequently sticking it into the well would then have been easy. He walked away without saying another word.

[Control-Z]

26. That an entire jury

would be so thick, is frightening. I'm surprised your RW colleague "got it". One has to wonder how many criminals have gone free over the years.

[ThomCat]

21. I hope this ruins his career. I hope he gets pulled off the bench

really damned quick. x(

Does that asshole not have any clue how coercive and violent a crime rape is? :wtf:

[ThomCat]

22. Delete duplicate

[TexasObserver]

24. Until someone more reputable than the Houston Press covers it ...

... I would withhold judgment. The Press is hardly a "newspaper." It hawks mainly sexually related businesses, and is known for attack pieces that often don't hold up. They did a hatchet job on Sheila Jackson Lee that was typical of their assassination style of article.

Wait until a real newspaper writes it up, then believe it.

If the story is true as told, he'll probably be removed from the bench.

[Control-Z]

25. I actually heard about it

initially on the radio. I googled it, hoping to get more details. Who knows?

[TexasObserver]

27. It's probably true, but the HP has run far too many stories that are hit pieces.

They're just not a source I'd want to quote for anything more than where to find someone who can no longer advertise their kink on Craig's List. They give them away at restaurant/bars.

[Odin2005]

28. This victim-blaming dimwit should be impeached.

No means NO, you dumbass!!!

[BlueIris]

30. What a fucking psychopath that "judge" is. This is the twenty-first century, right?

Right?????

[Odin2005]

31. If DU is any indicator even plenty of "Progressives" are misogynists.

There are even some DUers that think DATE RAPE is OK. :puke:

[Control-Z]

34. You know what?

I was hesitant about posting this because of those DUers. There's actually a group of them who rush into rape threads, like moths to a flame. It is usually a matter of who sees it first - how the threads will progress. I'm pleasantly surprised that they haven't infiltrated this one (so far).

[omega minimo]

38. They're still trying to recover from the fact we had a huge, varied constructive thread

last week and they couldn't kill it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. lulz

Awfully funny comment, given the two locked subthreads.

[omega minimo]

42. Oh, see. He's here.

:thumbsdown: Licking his wounds.

"Awfully funny" considering the 800 replies.

[Odin2005]

56. Well, Well, look who showed up.

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Oh, I was in the deleted subthreads before they were deleted.

Did you see them before they were deleted?

Really telling of who's got the real issues here.

[Odin2005]

58. It's pathetic, innit?

The projection (Man-Hating Femi-Nazis!!!) is disgusting.

[Echo In Light]

33. Remeber this from yesterday? JAILED FOR YAWNING

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6265789

[Control-Z]

35. Yes, I do.

And I have to say, it is somewhat frightening to know what the "justice" system can get away with. I'm glad to read these stories, though, because it means they're getting caught and exposed.

[UndertheOcean]

36. There is an easy retribution for rape , no jail , no fine , no need for parole and all that

just castrate the guy , WITHOUT anesthesia , and send him on his merry way.

on edit , if it is a woman , don't know ? maybe Hysterectomy , again without anesthesia.

[omega minimo]

40. It's the violence, not the dick, that's the problem. What's Mr. NoDick gonna think up next?

Watch some porn/video mayhem with the only joystick he's got left and go violate with other weapons?

[Matariki]

41. I seriously doubt that would solve anything.

And while it might be 'retribution' in a blood lust revenge sort of way - it won't stop the rapist from doing it again.

In fact, it would probably make the person even more hateful and bent on violence against women.

[Starry Messenger]

50. He can still rape.

He will just use something else. :(

[anigbrowl]

52. Right. Because nobody has ever been wrongly convicted, evidence hidden, or lies told in court

Yep, abrupt irreversible punishments are the way to go. While it's true that a small percentage of such convictions turn out to be flawed, too bad. That's the pice of preserving an unconstitutional 'justice' system of the kind you propose.

[Odin2005]

59. Won't work, sexual assault is about power more than it is about sex.

The rapist will just find some other way to violate his victims sexually.

[LanternWaste]

61. Amadou Diallo...

I imagine that Amadou Diallo would vociferously disagree with your position.

[One_Life_To_Give]

46. Must have liked the answer

Must have liked the answer as he gave the defendant 25 years.

Don't care for the way he went about getting his questions answered but looks like he realizes his mistake. And hopefully most of this is just one soundbite out of context. But the transcripts when available will either confirm poor tact or his being an ass.

[NashVegas]

47. For Those Who Chose Not To Read the Full Article: Here's His Response

The manner in which I went about garnering answers to my questions that I had, and that I needed answered prior to assessing appropriate punishment for the defendant, was incorrect. I should not have gone about it in the manner in which I went about it.

In other words, I should not -- probably the better method would have been to call counsel into chambers and express my concerns directly to them, demonstrating all of the physical evidence that I was looking at that did not match what the complainant had to say during (the) guilt/innocence and during (the) punishment (phases of the trial).

And then let them flesh it out with the witness, rather than me question the witness, because of the appearance that I didn't believe the witness, or was picking on the witness, which I don't think a judge should do. Although in certain circumstances maybe it's appropriate.

I think in light of the nature of the offense the better means would have been to call counsel for both sides into chambers, express my concerns, explain my concerns based on the evidence I had in front of me -- and by that I mean the physical evidence -- and then let them flesh it out.

Perhaps it also needs to be pointed out, again, the question was asked after the defendant had been found guilty.

[Control-Z]

51. Ok. I'll concede.

It was probably less traumatizing to have the judge make his despicable opinion known AFTER the rapist was found guilty, rather than before. But only slightly less traumatizing. I can't even imagine how the woman must have felt to hear his opinion in front of an entire courtroom. How she must have felt to hear his opinion at all. As far as I know, it was not his place to even offer it - except under proper circumstances. What he did was fucked up. He knows it.

[BlooInBloo]

66. By leaving such things out, it gives the appearance that you were trying to hide that fact...

because you were worried about it not being outrageous enough if the whole situation were understood.

It's a pretty craven way to foment outrage. What's more: in this case, it wasn't even necessary - this is plenty outrageous all-things-understood.

[Control-Z]

69. I didn't intentionally leave anything out.

I copied the first few paragraphs as per copyright rules. I was not in the least bit worried about it not being outrageous enough because, as even you have pointed out, it was 'plenty outrageous all-things-understood'. The fact that he said if after the conviction barely registered because it made no difference. It was the fact that he even thought it, and then said it in front of her that was so disgusting.

And when I wrote: 'Ok. I'll concede.' it just didn't occur to me that I would need to use the sarcasm thingy. I figured it would be understood.

Seriously, please don't tell me what I was thinking. You couldn't be more wrong.

[BlooInBloo]

70. I didn't say you did.

[Control-Z]

74. OK.

It kind of sounded that way. But I can see where I may have taken it wrong. :)

[mamaleah]

57. I don't see why the judge would need that info at all period.

She was raped....what does it matter in what position???

[Odin2005]

60. Exactly, rape is rape.

By making such a remark for whatever reason he is exposing his contempt for the rape victim.

[NashVegas]

63. That's Your Inference

Giving the benefit of the doubt, I think he was exposing his own lack of knowledge in the area. He's a new judge who just learned a lesson.

[Control-Z]

64. He may be a new judge

but he's not a new human. One doesn't have to expand the mind much to understand how rape could occur with the victim on top.

Giving the benefit of the doubt to the judge and not the victim? Wrong.

[Odin2005]

68. No, it was exposing his own misogynistic cultural biases.

[dem629]

71. Are you trying to get a date?

[Odin2005]

73. What's that got to do with anything?

[Control-Z]

76. What does that mean? n/t

[marshall]

72. I can see it being needed (along with a host of other evidence)

By itself I wouldn't think her being on top would prove or disprove the rape, it is just one piece in the puzzle that makes up the event. It helps explain to the jury or the judge what happened.

I assume most rape cases involve asking the victim questions like that. And the defense attorney tries to show inconsistencies in what the victim says. There was no inconsistency here, and the judge seems to have carried the question and answer overboard to the point of titillation. His conclusion and his statement regarding that conclusion are inappropriate.

[NashVegas]

77. Why Was His Statement Inappropriate?

[BlooInBloo]

65. Disgusting, even though it was after the verdict.

[Wednesdays]

67. K&R

:kick:

[Solly Mack]

75. K&R