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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:18 AM
Original message
What's the truth about health care in Canada? (Canadian healthcare?)
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 03:35 AM by ColbertWatcher
All sections below are excerpted from an article in The Denver Post

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.
There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.


Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.
Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.


Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.
Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.


Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.
From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.


Four more at the link.

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XOKCowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Congrats to my hometown newspaper for running this. The comments are priceless..
Like birthers the hard core repugs refuse to believe anything other than what they hear from Faux.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. No doubt. The GOP has given out the talking point (government run) and ...
... the obedient sheep/parrots do the rest.

They're well-trained after all.

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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. I lived in Canada and it has a fine health system!
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. Pretty much the same as the UK's NHS
in almost every respect.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. Uhm, except that...
UK doctors are government employees and Canadian doctors are self employed. Most European systems are not socialized to the extent that the UK's is.

--imm
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Mark Baker Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Only hospital doctors
Most GPs (family doctors) in the UK are either self employed or are employed by other GPs who are self employed.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. None of the UK's GPs are government employees
They're paid to do NHS work for the NHS.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. I love the UK system!
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
50. Very few UK docs are government employees most are
self employed with contracts from the National Health Service.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
4. ***Medical discoveries made by Canada/Canadians!***
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. but but..... there won't be any medical research if we have a 'government run' system....
we must look like such a joke to the rest of the world. I mean, We have people with inadequate health insurance that they pay through the nose for actively fighting a single payer system.. uggh.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
44. Great links, thanks!
:applause:
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
49. K & R. Great OP and great link here.
Thanks!
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. Oooh, I gotta bookmark this.
I know of a board populated with freepers who claim "socialist medicine doesn't innovate." I told them that I would start a healthcare thread there. I can't wait for the head explosions. :evilgrin:
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. No doubt they will link to the Heritage Founation's "response."
Nevertheless, I tried to phrase the OP in such a way that it will get top hits on The Google when people go searching for the truth about Canadian healthcare, etc.

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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Actually I meant to reply to the post with the links to Canadian research
I have other methods of dealing with the Heritage Foundation. :evilgrin:
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Oh? You should share! LOL! n/t
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TaffyMoon Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. People, if it was lousy
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 05:38 AM by TaffyMoon
we'd vote it out! However, the truth is any politician who even hints s/he will mess with our health cares dies a lonely death, voteless, somewhere out there in the snow.
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. isn't that how it is with medicare??? they don't even touch it because they know
it's a death sentence to do so. I just don't see why people can't make that correlation... they just act like medicare has always been there. wasn't there a big fight over medicare when it was instituted??? weren't many of the same arguments they are using today to kill a public option the same ones they used back then??? medicare may not be perfect, nothing is!! but would people really rather risk having NO insurance than having medicare???
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
8. O Canada! If only the USA could have free health care.
We have the most expensive, least predictable, most egregiously unfair health system among the most developed Western nations. It's a disgrace.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Technically it isn't "free" just pre-paid with taxes. n/t
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. It's free. FREE means patients don't have to pay.
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 02:41 PM by TexasObserver
Of course it is prepaid with taxes, but that doesn't negate the fact that it's free to patients, who get care irrespective of whether they've ever paid any taxes for anything.

Does anyone get charged when they walk in the door? NO.

It's FREE. I didn't say it doesn't cost the government, because it does. But it's free to the consumer.


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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Okay, I see what you're saying.
I just think it's a little disingenuous and can be knocked down by even the weakest GOP talking head.

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. FREE is a term that is defined by the recipient's role, not the provider's role.
When a member of congress gets medical care it's FREE. It costs US every dollar, but it's FREE to him. Virtually everything that is FREE to one person costs another person or entity.

The meme "it's not free, it's paid by taxes" can be used for food stamps, for WIC, for school lunch programs, for child care programs, for welfare, for unemployment benefits, and for just about every program out there which puts money or value into the pockets of citizens.

What's disingenuous is your use of a GOP talking point, and defending it because it is one.

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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I'm sorry.
What I meant is that it only sounds disingenuous.

I'm just trying to figure how the GOPers would ignore the details.

My apologies.

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Sorry. I don't impute bad motives, but I'm touchy about GOP talking points.
I'm not trying to accuse you of simply repeating them, but I think it's an important distinction.

I want to see people get health care without regard to any ability on their part to pay. I want to see us have what Canada and UK have. And they do so at half the cost per person we do. The "it's not free, taxes pay for it" theme has been used against social programs my entire life, and it's never used to complain about farm subsidies or investment tax credits.

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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Not to mention how much oil companies get in subsidies.
Of all the industries that shouldn't be getting help from taxpayers it's the oil companies.

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
9. Nice article!
Too bad GOPers won't even consider what is being said on behalf of a national healthcare system like Canada's. This is really the only way to rein in costs and maintain decent care.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. "the only way to rein in costs and maintain decent care" QFT
To understand why GOPers are against it, we have to start asking them which they hate more reining in costs or decent medical care?

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
12. Myth #1 - the wait. Who hasn't waited in this country?
I had to wait 6 weeks for a colonoscopy after exhibiting symptoms of colon cancer and having a strong history of it on both sides of my family. (Fortunately, it wasn't.) I'm currently uninsured and need a hip replacement. How long do you suppose that wait will be? Forever is my guess.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. The Kings and Princes coming over here for health care aren't going to the ER!
ONE of my personal favorite BS memes is how the rich from other countries are coming over here because we have 'the best healthcare in the world'.

HEY, Prince What-ever. Why do I have a feeling you didn't come over here to wait 10 hours in the ER, where most people are entered into the hospital???
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. I had to wait more than 3 weeks to start chemo for lymphoma.
I'd say that's pretty urgent. And I'm in a major metro area.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
14. K&R
:kick:
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
15. I waited 3 months to have a lump removed from my neck.
That was Kaiser. Tell me again about the long waits in Canada.
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. Delete.
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 08:20 PM by roamer65
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kedrys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-21-09 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
53. Well, my mom waited 2 days to have a spot removed from her nose
and another one from her arm. She had prior surgery on her nose, so they wanted to make sure they caught whatever it was early. Outpatient surgery, 5 hours in the hospital, and her major outlay would have been parking except that they validated her garage ticket too. Oh, and her doctor called her at home that afternoon and the next day to make sure she wasn't in pain and that her stitches were intact.

There are longer waits for elective surgery, to be sure, but if there's a hint that there might be something seriously wrong with you, the wait is reduced dramatically.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
16. The US' privatized for-profit medical insurance industry has failed to prove its case since
the last time they trotted out the scary anti-national healthcare propaganda to stomp on the Clintons' attempt to introduce it over 15 years ago.

They told us then that our privatized system was far better and they would introduce voluntary improvements to keep costs down.

They had their decade to prove their case and they failed miserably.

The only thing the privatized medical industries have proven since then is their power to provide campaign funding and intense lobbying. Their financial power and PR networks can make or break a politician.

Have they proven that they can run the national healthcare system more efficiently and effectively since they last defeated national health insurance?

No. But they have proven they can increase their private profits and power to intimidate our legislators.

I guess that is why we don't have more legislators telling them "Sorry folks, you had over a decade to prove your case and you blew it."
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
46. And the 'privatized for-profit medical insurance industry' is GUILTY of....
Everything they accuse government health care of being.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-21-09 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #46
54. Definitely. Insurance companies perpetrate all of their nightmare scenarios right now.
On another thread we were discussing Frank Luntz' talking points for Republicans against national health insurance. But those Republican talking points can be applied to the other side quite easily. Pick your poison:

We don't want government/insurance companies setting standards of care, instead of doctors who really know what's best.

We don't want government/insurance companies rationing care, making people stand in line and denying treatment due to medical advisory boards / ability to pay.

We don't want government/insurance company bureaucrats in charge of healthcare.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. K&R
:kick:
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
21. knr Too bad a Canadian style system is not being proposed....
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 02:26 PM by slipslidingaway
we are fighting all the arguments against a single-payer system, at the same time they have not been allowed to participate in the discussions.

rec #24



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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. We need a leader who will tell the truth.
Why isn't the administration setting up a website with comparative studies of industrialized countries and their health care programs. Include CBO studies of all reform proposed.
Why aren't they reaching out to people as citizens and involving them by educating them to possibilities of a healthcare system that takes the best of the successful programs in order to build a world class program of our own.
Why aren't they using their grass roots network that got obama elected to set up town hall meetings all over the country to get peoples input and ideas and answer their concerns. And most importantly why isn't Dean in charge of this?

This baloney that single payer can never pass is self fulfilling and the insurance companies know it.
Our country has a working class population that is estimated as high as 62%. These people are getting eaten up a spit out by the insurance companies en masse. Of course single payer would pass. We need a leader who will involve citizens, get the info to them because the press isn't, not expect them to stand like victims on the sideline hoping and praying the crumbs the insurance companies throw at us will include help for our own family. Once people are armed with knowledge and facts it's up to us to hound our representatives until they give us what we need.

The insurance companies have earned the right over the last 30 years to never go near anything having to do with the health of americans. Unfortunately they've been given the leadership position in health care reform because citizens aren't mobilized in any real way to fight for the right to healthcare.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. We cannot do these things as too many people might question
why the for profit companies, who only skim profits from health care money, are allowed at the table and not for profit advocates are silenced.

Dean is definitely involved, but he supports the Obama proposal of a public/private mix, which AHIP spoke of in 2006.

Single-payer would probably pass if we had high profile Democrats pushing the plan, but many followed the lead to support a public/private plan.

http://crooksandliars.com/node/29667

"On Single Payer

Wed, 07/15/2009 - 10:53 — Speaker Nancy Pelosi

For 30 years I have supported a single payer plan, but our next best choice is to support an exchange and a public option. In the exchange, as with the health insurance that Members of Congress have, consumers can shop and compare. The insurance companies cannot descriminiate among people on the basis of their preexisting conditions. I share your frustration with the insurance companies, and we must stop them from coming between patients and their doctors."

:(






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Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
31. Like any system
the Canadian Health care system is not without its flaws. There are many Canadians who, with deeper pockets than most, go to private facilities and pay out of pocket for more niceties and greater quality service. However, you ask any of these people, these people who are paying extra for a little better service, if they wanted the kind of health care system the US has, that immediate answer is HELL NO!!!

Even these people, who may not like everything about their system, would still choose it 100% over the crap system we have.

The US system is broken, its completely flawed, and it only serves the moneyed interests of corporate America.

WE WANT CIVILIZED HEALTH CARE LIKE EVERY OTHER INDUSTRIALIZED COUNTRY HAS,

AND DAMMIT WE WANT IT KNOW!!!
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. K, R, & B.
Thanks so much for posting this. :hi:
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. You're welcome. n/t
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
38. They keep costs down by sending ninjas to kill expensive patients in the dead of night.
The SCHIP expansion from earlier this year was the first step in a slippery slope which will lead to Soylent Green.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. And we set our old people adrift on icebergs
After they reach 65.

That's why you'll never see an old Canadian on "Canadian Idol"
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Wasn't Harper going to raise the iceberg age to 67?
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
41. The lies they tell about the Canadian health care system are amazing.
But they do it to preserve the $600 billion a year waste in the medical-industrial complex. If we moved everyone to single payor Medicare, you could chop out $600 billion and still deliver better care.
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
45. Sorry, but the Denver Post article is wrong. There ARE long waits for certain urgent care, and
ISN'T enough doctors here. If you don't have a family docotr currently, even in urban areas, good luck finding one. It's probably not what people in this forum want to hear, but it's the truth. That being said, I still like our overall system, but there are problems that need to be fixed.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Useful VIDEO Here:
Edited on Mon Jul-20-09 09:36 PM by Hissyspit
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x340159

Your point is taken, Dave, and I don't mean to attack you, but there aren't enough doctors in the U.S. either, there can be plenty of long waits here, and there are plenty of problems finding family doctors here - ESPECIALLY if you have no health care insurance. That's the problem with pointing out the shortcomings of the systems in other countries. At least those people DO have insurance. One out of every six Americans doesn't have access to insurance, and many that do will be turned down for procedures or will be financially ruined even with insurance.

I have been in emergency rooms where there have been ridiculously long waits and have been in emergency room situations where I was in and out in a couple of hours. It depends. That's just the nature of doctoring.


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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. There are waiting lists, no one has said otherwise...
but the lies inherent in the US ads are obscene. If you don't have a family doctor because you moved or your doctor retired and you chose not to become a patient of the incoming doctor, there is a clinic you can go to, see a doctor and all you have to do is show your healthcare card. If critical care is needed, you receive it immediately, it is as simple as that. If you need a joint replacement, yes, you might well have to wait a few months.
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. I'm not sure where Dave is from but that certainly isn't the case in
BC- not a problem at all finding family practice docs accepting new clients even in the mor rural areas. I have family members in Port Alberni, Abbotsford and Campbell River and well as Victoria.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-21-09 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
55. Why Can't We Just Train More Doctors?
There are an awful lot of smart people without jobs. Let's train them to become doctors.
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