Destroying A 1500-Year-Old Indian Mound To Build A Sam's Club

[L. Coyote]

Oxford pays for demolition of Indian mound
By Dan Whisenhunt
Oxford, Alabama (AP) 7-09 - http://indiancountrynews.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6894&Itemid=33


A stone mound on a hill behind the Oxford Exchange created by American Indians 1,500 years ago will soon disappear.

And whether Oxford’s taxpayers wanted it or not, they paid for its destruction ......

The city’s CDA uses taxpayer money and assets to lure commercial businesses. The $2.6 million no-bid CDA contract for preparing the Sam’s site went to Oxford-based Taylor Corp.

........... Council President Chris Spurlin ... said there is no proof the site holds human remains.

====================
July 10, 2009 - http://www.deepfriedkudzu.com/2009/07/oxford-alabama-destroying-1500-year-old.html
Oxford, Alabama Destroying A 1500-Year-Old Indian Mound To Build A Sam's Club


After writing the post yesterday about how the city of Oxford is destroying a 1500-year-old Indian mound to use it as fill for the building of a Sam's Club, I just had to go see it for myself.

The mound is *huge*. It towers over the shopping center "Oxford Exchange":

..... who is really to blame is the mayor, Leon Smith, and those in the city's Commercial Development Authority, which owns the mound.

The AP article titled 'Oxford Pays for Demolition of Indian Mound' details the incestuous relationship between the city's no-bid contract and political contributions from the construction company directly to the mayor's campaign. Ugly!!

It's just so unbelievable that the city of Oxford and its leaders are destroying a 1500-year-old Indian mound containing no-telling-what (burials? ceremonial items/artifacts?) to use as *fill dirt* for a Sam's Club!

====================
Official Website for the City of Oxford, Mississippi
CONTACTS: http://www.oxfordms.net/departments/deptindex.htm

Tell them you will boycott their businesses!!

[daggahead]

1. Who cares ...

it was built by savages.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Laelth]

58. Thanks for the sarcasm tags.

I was about to go off.

:toast:

:dem:

-Laelth

[KakistocracyHater]

81. !!!QUICKLY FIND AN ARTIFACT!!!

Can't you/they get an emergency archaology thingy? Better yet find a thousand year old body....THAT would shut them down for awhile.

[daggahead]

127. Isn't the entire mound ...

an artifact?

[AtheistCrusader]

132. If god wanted us to preserve that mound, he'da put a CROSS on it.

j/k

[KakistocracyHater]

190. not really, a mound 'could be anything', whereas an artifact

like in Greece, can stop contruction work(if American laws are similar) & especially if a body is found. It would trigger an emergency dig type of thing.

[imdjh]

2. Check your post- Mississippi or Alabama?

[SteppingRazor]

6. It's Alabama. The OP posted a link to the wrong city.

The actual city website is http://www.oxfordalabama.org/

[L. Coyote]

28. YES, it is ALABAMA.

[L. Coyote]

65. City of Oxford, Alabama & More info on who to contact:

The City of Oxford, Alabama and its mayor Leon Smith, who was quoted in an Anniston Star article as, "I said, 'First of all it's not a burial ground,'" Smith said. "'It ain't never been a burial ground. It was for (smoke) signals'" can be contacted by mail (145 Hamric Drive East, PO Box 3383, Oxford AL 36203)
and by email: [email protected]

From the Anniston Star article: According to Tracy Roberts, assistant general counsel with the Alabama League of Municipalities, the law on excavation is clear. Cities must get permission from the state before they can remove a stone mound like the one in Oxford.

Bob Riley, the Governor of the State of Alabama, can be reached here. http://governor.alabama.gov/contact/contact_form.aspx

A directory of people that can be contacted at the Alabama Historical Commission is here. http://preserveala.org/staffdirectory.aspx?sm=a_d

[Seldona]

67. 'It ain't never been a burial ground. It was for (smoke) signals'

Fill for a Sam's Club?

:wow:

[L. Coyote]

69. What a pathetic, racist comment by the mayor, who got big contributions, of course ..

They know not what they are destroying.

[Seldona]

75. Agreed.

I am amazed he made the statement publicly. What a rube.

[christx30]

91. I mostly agree with you.

He is a pathetic, racist jerkwad who got big contributions.
But I think he knows EXACTLY what he is destroying. Which makes this worse. He knows that the area is incredibly rich with historical and cultural significance. But he would rather people be able to buy boxed wine for dirt cheap than show any respect for the people of the area.

[downindixie]

134. Since I live in Oxford

I know a little about this.The verbal history is that this was a site that provided the indians a site to observe the traffic on Choccolocco creek and they could see smoke signals from another mountain top site that was North and East of the Oxford site.I have searched the site with a friend many years ago and couldn't find any artifacts on the surface.This mountain top is just about 1/4 mile from Fort McIntosh (Named after the local indian chief Mcintosh) that was located on Wolfs skull creek during the time that Jackson was killing all the indians.I don't really know if anyone is buried there,but if you throw a rock wherever it lands could be an Indian burial site.
There were several indian burial mounds across the road from this site and many years ago the man who owned the land got tired of people looking for artifacts and he bulldozed the mounds into Choccolocco creek.This site is now the location for a multiplex sports field that Mayor Smith wants to build.Smith rules this city and has for over twenty years.

[Seldona]

137. Pretty much par for the course then?

I expected as much.

[WCGreen]

80. Home of Jefferson Sessions....

What else would you expect...

[Mari333]

3. this would not happen in europe! they treat their neolothic and paleolithic sites

at least the ones I have seen , with incredible care...and are fiercely protective of them.
we, on the other hand..pfft

[chrisa]

24. Consumerism is more important!!!

Who wouldn't miss the chance to throw in another Sam's Club there? It's not like we have more than enough of them already.

[JonQ]

37. Of course they've already destroyed quite of a few of theirs

Thousands of years of steady habitation, a dense population (far more so than here), hundreds of years of industrialization and building and more than a handful of wars aren't negated by current preservation laws.

[valerief]

101. Yeah, the same way they treat their people--with universal health care! nt

[ismnotwasm]

4. Assholes

Complete and utter assholes. I already don't use Sam's club, but I'm more than happy to fire off a protest letter or email.

[sakabatou]

5. You know

I hope the SC gets haunted just like in "Poltergeist."

[slampoet]

12. Half of Sam's Club customers are just Death warmed over anyways.

You wanna see the undead? Just look for their Sam's Club Cards.

[aquart]

7. They have no antiquities protection laws?

In New York we stopped building when we found a cemetery.

Now me, I wanna know what's in that mound. I'd dig every inch of it. But most people have favored keeping the mounds intact. And to destroy it for a big box store that will cripple already hurting small businesses?

Who's getting the kickback?

[moggie]

8. "said there is no proof the site holds human remains"

So what if there are no human remains: it's still a historic artefact! When the Taliban destroyed Buddhist statues of around the same age, there was worldwide condemnation. How can a country be so careless of its heritage?

[Mari333]

13. ignorant inbred idiots thats why

when I was in Ireland and the UK, EVERYONE knew about their ancient history there..Avebury Stones, Stonehenge, the longbarrows, the mounds, hell there are 86 stone circles in County Cork alone..and these places are sacred to their history..they are well protected.
here> we have a lot of moronic idiotic mouth breathing slack jawed idiots running these towns...people whose sole purpose in life is to use up resources and thats about it.
this does infuriate me.

[imdjh]

23. Nice broad brush there.

There are protected ancient and modern sites all over the US with every bit as much reverence as given to those in the British Isles. There are plenty of ancient sites in the British Isles which have been destroyed or built over as well (The Story Of A Nation - Magnús Magnússon).

Historic preservation is a relatively new thing in the world, because it's a luxury of an advanced civilization.

[Mari333]

26. i agree with you about some of what you said

but when I was in the UK I saw whole communities come together to fight for sites that were in danger. broad brush> perhaps..but lets face it, commercial real estate takes precedence over archeological artifacts in the US often..look at how we destroyed the Cradle of Civilization in Iraq....the Gate of Ishtar..
sorry, but a lot of people in the US are not well educated when it comes to ancient history. they think their ancestors were cowboys, a lot of them.

[SteppingRazor]

39. A lot of them, their ancesters WERE cowboys...

well, not really, but it does highlight one huge difference between Ireland/UK heritage sites and here. In Ireland and the UK, the sites in question are the history of the very people who represent the majority of the country -- that is, the current population are descended, in many cases, from the same Anglo-Saxon or Gaelic stock that built these monuments. Thus, they have some personal tie in preserving these sites.

In the case of America, these sites represent the culture of a people we spent a good couple centuries doing our damnedest to exterminate.

[Mari333]

40. yes, and yet, if people would educate themselves even a LITTLE on their neolithic and paleolithic

European ancestry, they would find out...TADA....! that they have almost identical mounds and longbarrows and stone circles in their european ancestry that are found in the indigenous tribes here in the US...

[SteppingRazor]

41. I don't think that would be relevant to people like the mayor of this town.

It's all about the money. Revenue generated from Native American mound: None. Revenue generated in terms of property taxes and fees from Sam's Club: millions.

[Mari333]

44. I really must stop being an idealist.

You would think I would have learned by now.

[SteppingRazor]

46. Give yourself time.

We all become cynical bastards after a while. ;)

[Mari333]

54. Ill be dead. Im almost 60. maybe the idealism leaves when I croak nt

[Lorien]

48. And there was NO PLACE else for that Sam's Club?

with all of the businesses going out of business these days I would find that hard to believe.

The mound could generate income if the had an Earthwatch archeological dig there. Walmart/ Sam's Club does NOTHING for local governments; they're merely tax revenue vampires that suck local communities dry and add to the food stamp recipient's rolls.

[imdjh]

45. Oddly enough, there are those of us who embrace the fiction of a collective history.

Just as 20th Century immigrants refer to "our forefathers", people to whom they have no familial or cultural connection, many Americans consider the more ancient Americans to be quite dear. That doesn't mean that every place where those people have lived is going to be regarded as holy ground, anymore than it means that every place where Washington may have slept or dined is going to be a museum.

I also take issue with the notion that the British Isles heritage sites are fundamentally different from those in the US. The "Scottish people" is a relative new construct as is the "English people" and even the "Irish people". All of these places hosted a history similar to the US in that each has been home to a succession of tribes, warring tribes shifting claim and control, some of which are supported by little more than myth, and conquests which are well known. Historic Scotland doesn't preserve sites in the Orkneys because those people were Scots, they weren't Scots. By the same token, they preserve places like Skara Brae, the former inhabitants of which are a mystery and to which no extant people can be connected. The difference between Skara Brae and some other sites around the world is that by being discovered so recently and during scientific times, no folklore has been able to take root to claim it.

[PainPerdu]

76. Rodeo Dinosaurs

And MANY ,especially in Alabama, believe the earth is only six thousand years old and man RODE the dinosaurs !!!

[Enthusiast]

85. Like the golf course

they built on mounds in Newark Ohio?

[imdjh]

121. It looks like that site is being watched over fairly well.

Thanks for making me aware of it.

I think it's important to note that whether we are talking about Stonehenge or the Newark Earthworks, we're talking about artifacts which are not from previous generations of extant identifiable cultures, as far as we know, but artifacts from previous cultures. Yes, I am aware that culture is singular and continuous, but I mean culture in the sense of "nation" in its dictionary sense. So from my perspective, the amazing thing is not the degree to which our modern culture has destroyed or preserved such sites, it is that the interim cultures didn't do more damage since they would have no more regard for some of this stuff that we might for something not terribly old which we don't use.

[sybylla]

56. "...their history..." That's the problem

Historical sites on this continent aren't their history - at least not the history of anyone making the decisions. And that does make them ignorant inbred idiots, because it doesn't take much of an education to realize all history has something to tell us and should be preserved.

Good lord, if they weren't inbred idiots, they'd realize the tourism goldmine they have there if they actually did a little research and set up a history center.

[Marr]

89. Ah, but they're protecting *their own history*.

Here we're just talking about brown people-- and that's a whole "different species", according to the Fox News way of thinking.

[RaleighNCDUer]

109. Absolutely agree. 90% of these yokels, ask them about the

Missippian culture and they'll say "Wall, I been ta Jackson once."

[slampoet]

9. The sad thing is that there are THOUSANDS of abandoned Box Stores they could just move into instead.

And this Sam's Club will not last more than ten years. MARK MY WORDS.

[hedgehog]

51. +1

[LeftinOH]

98. What you said - empty big box stores and their (huge) empty parking lots

-just sitting around literally wasting space.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

128. +1 also

[RaleighNCDUer]

143. But there is more graft potential in building new.

You got the contractors, the building supplies, all kinds of stuff. If the site is already built, you're pretty much limited to a single payoff.

[scheming daemons]

10. Can we buy Peyote in bulk now?

At least that would be one benefit.

;-)

[glinda]

11. Where are the present day descendants, the Choctaws, even though there might not be

proven relationship as "Tribes" are a new concept. Mound is NOT designated so they can do this but that does not make it right. I think it odd that no one is contesting this.
If nothing else, I think this should go full frontal on the news. Ohio's "Serpent Mound " became a golf course. They left part of it for research and left fragments on the golf course.
I also think that a movement to make sure that the business fails would be in order. I do not shop Walfart nor Sam's Club. I refuse.

[mrbill]

92. the choctaws are running casinos in Oklahoma .......

Slight correction to your post. Ohio's Serpent Mound is not a golf course. In 1993 somebody tried to build a resort, convention, center, golf course and 100-acre lake in the valley below. Studies showed that the lake would erode the bluffs and threaten the Serpent Mound. The project came to a quick halt after a civic outcry.

Now the Moundbuilders Country Club built over the Octagon Earthworks in nearby Newark Ohio is another story.

The city of Newark acquired the land in 1891 and deeded it the State of Ohio for the state milita (national guard) to use for camping and target practice until 1910 when the Licking Country Club, Inc (now Moundbuilders CC) leased the property.

The golf course was designed by Thomas Bendelow, who used the natural features and didn't screw things up too bad, other than a few sandtraps.

The current problem seems to be that the ass-hole club members like to keep people off their property.

[blogslut]

14. I wonder if they will keep the excavation secret

They will undoubtedly encounter artifacts and possibly remains while they're tearing up the mound. Will they hide these discoveries from the public and relative archeologists?

[ismnotwasm]

16. Probably will show up in 'private collections'

Disgusting.

[imdjh]

21. They haven't so far. Though, it's disturbing that they can't find the report.

It seems pretty transparent. They say that they can't find the report done some time ago, a study of the mound, but they also publicly state that the examination, while handy, wasn't of the in depth kind they would like to have.

[redqueen]

15. How sad.

I have to wonder how often this happens, and it doesn't get wide exposure.

I know it goes on in other countries for sure.

Such messed-up priorities. Thanks, capitalism.

[Xicano]

73. So very sad.

I would go so far as to say I think it is nothing less than a criminal act.

"I have to wonder how often this happens, and it doesn't get wide exposure."

redqueen, I know of a video you might be interested in.

Short sample: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7izxRlq_fwY

[redqueen]

135. Thank you.

I'll check that out.

[Helga Scow Stern]

108. Something similar happened in Ojai....

After much public outcry a site was developed for expensive condos. Once digging began artifacts were found. It was kept out of the local news, but it was heard on NPR that it was the biggest burial ground of artifacts in the state. Somehow the local Indians (there aren't many in Ojai) went along with it. Now I understand there is a glass case in the community center of the condos that houses some of the items.

[Lars39]

17. Not the first time:

http://walmartwatch.com/img/documents/native_americans_fact_sheet.pdf

<snip>
Wal-Mart construction unearths 64 Native remains in Hawaii. During the construction of a Sam's Club and
Wal-Mart supercenter in Hawaii, workers found 64 sets of remains. In 2007, three years after being unearthed, the
remains still sat locked up in a trailer under a parking ramp, awaiting reburial. Native Hawaiian activist William Aila
had this to say about Wal-Mart’s project. "What if they built a Wal-Mart at Arlington? How would people feel...Those
individuals were buried there with the thought that they would be undisturbed for the rest of the eternity." The
superstore opened in 2004, with protesters waving signs accusing the world's largest retailer of destroying graves.


Wal-Mart supercenter intrudes on ancient Aztec ruins and destroys farmland. When Wal-Mart decided to
place a store in an area of San Juan Teotihuacán, a mere one and half miles from Aztec ruins, some Mexican
citizens staged a hunger strike in protest of destroying Mexico’s “indigenous heritage.” Not only did the Wal-Mart
store destroy the “cultural heritage” of the land, it destroyed “alfalfa and cornfields” which were “razed to make way”
for the big box store.

Stockholders angered by Wal-Mart’s desecration of native gravesites. In the fall of 1999, Wal-Mart came
under fire from the Interfaith Center on Corporate Responsibility (ICCR), a coalition of 275 religious organizations
who hold 100 billion in their stock portfolios, for destroying Native gravesites with new store development. from Indian Country, 1/31/00]

Wal-Mart disrupts a native historical site during the construction of a Wal-Mart supercenter. When building a
new supercenter on Charlotte Pike in Nashville, Wal-Mart was not going to let native historical site get in the way of
its expansion. The excavation of native graves began in February 1998 and in the end, the remains of 154
individuals had been taken from their graves.

[imdjh]

32. Just about every highway in the world is built on places where people have been buried.

It's not a defense of Walmart, but ultimately almost anyplace in the world, especially a well travelled place or trail, is the site of graves or places where the dead died.

[dflprincess]

64. Walmart hates history

At one time Walmart also wanted to build a store across from FDR's Hyde Park.

More recently they had designs on part of the Wilderness battlefield, part of Fredericksburg & Spotsylvania (Virginia) National Military Park.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/02/historians-battle-walmart_n_154920.html

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. Our priorities are so effed up. sadly K&R.

[corkhead]

19. Don't they know what happens when they desecrate a sacred indian burial ground?

The Walton family must not have ever watched Scooby Do.

[scheming daemons]

22. Or the Poltergeist movies

[That Is Quite Enough]

43. My thoughts exactly - I'm hoping the building will be haunted.

[subcomhd]

20. This makes me ill. How utterly depressing.

[Kingofalldems]

25. You people shut up!

The Walton family desperately needs that money.

[MilesColtrane]

27. It's just down the street from the Trail of Tears Golf Course.

[anonymous171]

29. Big business has no need for "culture" or "history"

:puke:

[Taitertots]

30. Its a mound with a few rocks on top

Why should we save a pile of rocks?

[Lars39]

31. You could say the same about a modern-era cemetary.

[DatManFromNawlins]

60. I for one

Have no problem tearing those down either. Why should the dead have the right to so much real estate?

[L. Coyote]

34. Why claim someone else's pile of rocks as privte property?

When time has passed, will today's cemetery be just a pile of old stones?

Why destroy history we do not understand.

[JonQ]

38. I imagine after enough time, yes

our cemetaries will be just more real estate. It happens, not all the time, but it's not unheard of to dig up old gravesites for new construction.

People have been around for a long time, and every culture I can think of has some tradition regarding the disposal of human remains, often that involves burying. I think we'd all be surprised at how much land at one point has had people buried in it.

I don't view their burial sites as any more sacred than our own. So if we move ours after a certain period of time (far less than 1500) why should theirs be any different?

[Doremus]

83. I don't view it so much as a "sacred" burial place

so much as I respect the history of it. Whether there are bodies buried there or not, shouldn't the fact that native people built the thing so long ago automatically preclude it from becoming fill dirt?

I would think so, in a civilized society.

[L. Coyote]

104. It is a form of recorded history, a book written on the earth

Burning this book is not easy, but they keep doing it with bulldozers, backhoes, etc.
This is on a par with library burning to destroy a history that contradicts fundamentalism.

[JonQ]

106. But that's the thing

a burial mound likely means exactly that, a small hill that people were buried in at one point. Nothing new or amazing here. We aren't talking about tearing down the sphinx to put up an arbys. Merely a hill that likely no one thought much of before this.

It'd be like permanently banning all construction anywhere someone found an arrowhead at one point. Yeah they're historical, but also common and don't teach us much.

[RaleighNCDUer]

111. THIS comment is exactly what this is all about -

your total ignorance of what you are talking about.

These 'burial mounds' were NOT burial mounds. Very few of them were ever used for burials - they are analagous to Central American pyramids, structures built for ceremonial purposes.

Just because YOU see nothing but a hill, that doesn't mean that is all it is.

[Taitertots]

116. Expect it is nothing like a pyramid

It is a dirt mound with a handful of rocks at the top. Anyone who ever believed it had supernatural powers has been dead for over a millennium.

[RaleighNCDUer]

118. A pile of dirt that took thousands of people years to build.

It is EXACTLY like a pyramid.

If you had ANY knowledge of archeology you would recognize that.

How is this different from Silbury Hill? How is it different from the conical mounds that predate the Egyptian pyramids?

And who gives a fuck about 'supernatural powers'? If the only reason you don't dig up cemeteries is because you're askeered of the ghosts, you got problems.

[JonQ]

122. I've been to several articles on it

and none have had a picture.

I imagine if they were at all comparable to the pyramids (central american or otherwise) they'd be plastering the picture everywhere.

It's a hill with some magical rocks on top. Not the long lost, mythical, ruins of atlantis.

Lets keeps some perspective here.

[RaleighNCDUer]

110. The mounds were sometimes used for burials, but they are more

analagous to Central American pyramids - they were deliberately constructed as ceremonial sites for a great many different purposes. Destroying the mounds is like leveling a pyramid.

[Taitertots]

117. It is like destroying a pyramid...

The same way tearing down my house is like tearing down the empire state building.

[RaleighNCDUer]

119. Really? Did it take 15,000 people ten years to build your house?

It probably took MORE man hours to build the mound than it took to build the Empire State building.

You REALLY don't know what you're talking about, do you.

[Taitertots]

120. Well only if you ignore all the effort that went into my house

All the lumber that got cut down.
The tools manufactured to build it.
Glass had to be made for the windows
Dry wall manufacturer
The nail manufacturer
The screw manufacturer
The wiring manufacturer
The plumbing manufacturer
The Carpet manufacturer
The hot water heater manufacturer
The furnace manufacturer
The people who manufactured the tools so they could manufacture the parts
Just to start


Yeah, I'd say thousands of people took part in the construction of my house over many years.

[RaleighNCDUer]

129. Irrelevant as they may be, all those listed items concern a few

hundred people, at the most, and range between a few minutes to maybe a few weeks. For instance, how many nails in a typical woodframe house? I'll be generous and say 100,000. That would be, what, maybe FIVE MINUTES production for the nail manufacturer?

That whole list comprises of maybe a thousand man hours of labor.

Now, the mound builders - with time out for other labor like planting and harvesting - would spend maybe 200 days/yr working on the mound. For ten years. That's 2000 days. Say they had a good union, eight hour days. 16,000 hours. That's for each of 15,000 workers.

240,000 man hours to build it.

A quarter of a million man-hours, which is right in line with the construction of Mayan pyramids.

[JonQ]

136. So it's not the final product that matters

merely how long it took to create it?

My friends, family and I could spend hundreds or thousands of manhours hand digging a poorly laid out pool in my back yard. Or I could hire a few professionals to get it done in a fraction of the time, with better results.

Which is more impressive? Which would people rather have the in their back yard?

The pyramids (for instance) aren't impressive merely because they took a long time to create and many workers. They are also architectural marvels in their own right. These hills are not comparable.

[RaleighNCDUer]

138. Yah, and the pyramids are just big piles of rocks.

You know, many of the great mounds are very precisely aligned to constellations (like the pyramids of Giza) and to solar and lunar calendars (like the central american pyramids and European henges) which suggest a highly sophisticated knowledge of astronomy. But never mind, they were just a bunch of fucking indians.

Every time you post, you put your ignorance on display.

[JonQ]

140. Very well, lets see a picture of the sacred rock hill in question

so that we can see if they compare to the pyramids. (I'll find you a picture of the ones at gaza if you like)

And I like the subtle dig that the only reason anyone can dismiss these is some sort of racism against indians. Not that they simply aren't that impressive.

Never mind that the ones in central America, also built by "a bunch of fucking indians" actually are impressive and should be preserved and are recognized as such. Or the fact that I'm holding up Egyptian rather than any European architecture as a contrast. Nope, must be racism.

Look, the natives of North America had some impressive cultural and physical achievements (the pueblo come to mind) that are worth preserving. And some people have unfairly denigrated their achievements before. That doesn't mean that everything they did was amazing and awe-inspiring. You seem to be falling for the disney view of history, viewing indians as somehow sacred and wise above the european settlers. Rather than merely people, culturally different, but that's all, just people.

[RaleighNCDUer]

142. And I have a pic in an old issue of Archeology Magazine that shows

the oldest pyramid in the Americas.

It looks like a pile of dirt.

It does NOT have to be visually impressive to be worth preserving. That is cultural graverobbing - the idea that ancient sites are only valuable if there's buried treasure.

Why should one artificial mound, built of cut stone, be MORE worthy of preserving than another made of compacted earth?

Problem is, you have taken an 'anti' position without consideration of what that position entailed and now you're stuck with it. The thousands of mounds created by the Mississipian people are just as impressive as the Mayan pyramids, in their own way. They are an expression of the culture of a people that spread across an area 10x the size of the Mayan world. The mounds took every bit as much work and social organization as did the Mayan pyramid building.

So it doesn't look like much today? Look at it and imagine it new, with cropped green grass, no trees or shrubs or weeds or barren eroded patches. It would look a lot like Silbury Hill - of course, NOBODY would want to preserve THAT.

[Taitertots]

146. Are you really comparing the pyramids in Egypt to a dirt pile?

It is fairly obvious that building the stone egyptian pyramids was a much greater feat than a pile of dirt. The Egyptian pyramids are more worthy of preserving than dirt mounds. Just like we preserve some pieces of art but not everything.


There is absolutely no way even a series of dirt mounds compares to a real stone pyramid. The mounds work is different from the stone pyramids work. They could have taken a lot more work to build the stone pyramids if they used already antiquated building technology. Stone pyramids requires way more social organization, with fleets of skilled labor.

Why don't we have a challenge? I'll go in my back yard with my hands and build a 6 foot dirt pyramid. You use 2000 year old technology and try to build one stone pyramid block.

[JonQ]

154. Here's a pic of your sacred dirt pile:

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20090705/news/907049972

Truly the work of gods among men. It'd be shame if our children couldn't witness it's full glory. They'd have no choice but to glory in other man made dirt piles, that pretty much look the same.

[L. Coyote]

184. Why can't you respect other cultures?

Would you rather they had enslaved thousands of people for decades to haul rocks, just to impress you today?

Have you ever considered that maybe not disturbing Nature any more
than necessary is an ethic that does not harm our future survival possibilities?

Does your culture have a procedure for considering cutting down a tree?
Or do you just kill trees for Christ's sake without thinking about the effects?

Are you a cultural Nazi?

[L. Coyote]

164. People without a right to their history, it seems

The Native America history is written on the ground, in sites like these.
And, private property rights steal that history, just like the land was stolen.
They have no right to their aboriginal lands, hence no right to protect how they wrote their history.

This is not an issue of whether or not the monument meets your criteria of importance!

[JonQ]

166. Your profile says you're from the USA

meaning that unless you are 100% native american you are living on stolen aboriginal land. Could be even if you are 100% native, if you're living on parts that were not your tribes historical territory (likely, they did get moved around a bit). And they considered their land sacred, meaning you are living on sacred stolen indian land.

But I guess it's more important to you to have your home, and grocery stores and pools, etc than to give back what it not yours.

See where this line of logic leads us?

[L. Coyote]

171. Obviously, you think people own the land, not vice-versa.

Imposing the idea that you can own the land was a foundation to the genocide.
Stealing Ohio and selling the land was the foundation of the US government,
which was going broke and was saved from financial ruin by stealing the land,
and turning ancient astronomy monuments into golf courses, etc.

Your logic of owning the land led to genocide.

[JonQ]

174. Yes, people can own land, and other property

that is a huge foundation of our law.

You can say they don't have the right to own anything, but that is not the law of the land. Just as I could say no one has the right to tell me not to do heroin while shooting wildly in to the air. I could say that, but it has no bearing on the law.

And again, genocide has what to do with the value of this as a monument? The jews suffered a genocide as well, does that mean every artifact, no matter how crude or seemingly worthless, ever put together by a jew is grounds for halting all progress in an area?

[L. Coyote]

177. No, the foundation of US law is that Europeans can steal other lands. The right of Kings.

Without that foundation, there wouldn't be any US law.
And the Ohio Nations would still be intact.

[JonQ]

179. If they hadn't been overrun by another tribe

People like to think of the indians as static, living in eden-like bliss before we showed up. In fact they practiced theft, slavery, war, conquest, genocide, infanticide, rape and torture long before we ever got here. If that's ignored it's mostly because we feel bad criticizing them after they were almost wiped out, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And private ownership of property and individual rights are the basis for our laws and indeed any decent laws. Without that foundation there would be anarchy, with warring tribes taking what they could from one another, kind of like what it was before we got here.

[L. Coyote]

182. Rationalizing genocide with the best of them, that's for sure.

[JonQ]

187. Yes, because admitting that human beings are in fact human beings

rather than saints, and as such have flaws is the same as wishing they were all wiped off the face of the earth.

It is odd though that those are the only two possibilities: either worship a group of people as perfect and holy, or wish them exterminated. Seems like it should be possible to have a middle ground. But as we all know, it isn't.

[Taitertots]

147. a highly sophisticated knowledge of astronomy?

How can you make that claim about a group who has views about what is happening in outer space are demonstrably false?

I think a safe bar for "a highly sophisticated knowledge of astronomy" should be at least understanding that the earth rotates around the sun and that the planets also rotate around the sun. With it probably closer to understanding what stars are.

[RaleighNCDUer]

149. ???

What group are you talking about?

[Taitertots]

153. You claimed the mounds suggest sophisticated knowledge of astronomy

Any group that doesn't understand the basic events in the solar system doesn't have a sophisticated knowledge of astronomy.

[RaleighNCDUer]

155. And you know that the mound builders did not?

You are unaware, maybe, that the Mayans who lived just a thousand miles to the south at the same time had a solar/lunar calendar that is as accurate as ours is today, and they could project eclipses thousands of years into the future - that's an easy thing to do with no knowledge of astronomy, of course. That there is archeological evidence that there was trade between the Missippian nations and Central America. That mounds were built on astronomical alignments.

By what grounds do you say they DIDN'T know?

And, BTW, even if they were NOT as sophisticated as archeological evidence says they were, how does that make their monuments less worthy of preservation?

Your Eurocentric prejudice is showing.

[Taitertots]

159. How do I know?

The lunar and solar calendars are no indication that they understood what would be considered the most basic knowledge about the solar system. It means they understood what was happening, not why it was happening. You can accurately predict the eclipses for a million years from a record of when they happened in the past, but if you think Angels are pushing it you are fundamentally wrong.


The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. Show me one Native American tribe that created any artifact that would indicate correct knowledge of the solar system. A basic diagram with the sun and the naked eye visible planets will do.

[RaleighNCDUer]

160. Show me any Roman who did, either.

Native American knowledge of astronomy was at least as, and in many ways far more sophisticated than European knowledge of the same time.

Lunar and solar calendars showed that they knew that the stars and planet followed predictable patterns, and were NOT subject to being pushed around by angels. What 5th century Roman philosopher knew as much? The bible says that hearing Joshua's prayer, god stopped the sun in the sky. That's real sophisticated. Even well after the Copernican theory was known in Europe, people were terrified by eclipses.

The Mayan long calendar gives pretty good evidence that they believed in a heliocentric solar system, and understood that the solar system was a part of the overall galaxy, and not that the galaxy revolved around the earth.

Since the Conquistidors destroyed 99% of Maya and Aztec writings, we can't be sure if they had a truly modern understanding of astronomy, but there is no evidence that they did NOT, so to assume they did not is nothing less than a prejudice.

[JonQ]

167. These people aren't mayans

and roman works have been torn down for millenia to make way for new progress. Those that remain are A) still useful, B) too difficult to remove or not in a desirable place or C) of tourist value. The rest (and even many that meet one or more of those requirements) have been torn down over the years.

The dirt hill doesn't meet any three of these.

How does comparing them to roman works help your cause?

[L. Coyote]

170. The Maya were not genocidally exterminated like Natives in the USA.

That is an important distinction. There still are millions of Maya Indians in a small area because they were not killed.
Meanwhile, in the USA a century of genocide built the nation. Covering up that genocide requires erasing this kind of history.

[JonQ]

173. Which has what to do with the value of this dirt pile?

I don't think anyone in the US isn't aware of what happened to the natives. We spent whole sections on the genocide in school. There have been numerous movies and books illustrating what happened to them. There's even a movement to get columbus day renamed because of what happened as a result of his voyage.

If that's a cover up it's easily the worst one in history.

[L. Coyote]

176. One nation's heritage is another nation's pile of fill dirt!

How can you be so insultory and insensitive?

It is not a pile of dirt. That's the whole point here!!!!

[JonQ]

178. It is a pile of dirt, that's the whole point here

It may not even have skeletons in it (which may have some historical value). It's just a pile of dirt, sacred to people long dead.

Two sticks tied together at right angles may be sacred to christians, that doesn't mean that every time it occurs all non-christians have to bow their heads and show respect. To them it would merely be two sticks stuck together.

Just like to us this is a pile of fill dirt.

It would be worth preserving if it could teach us something, but apparently it doesn't. Or was impressive, it isn't. Or could intentionally be enjoyed by tourists, it won't be. So why should the rest of us be forced to respect the alleged beliefs of a long dead people of a foreign culture? Besides, one hypothesis was that it was used for sending smoke signals further away, a communication device. I don't expect our decedents to stop all progress if they happen to run in to the rusting remains of a phone-booth.

[L. Coyote]

183. No, it's a monument. Piling dirt is a form of monument building, a way of writing cultural history

on the landscape. It is a very important form of recording past history.

But hey, how does one argue with ignorance? You don't know what it is, so you can't understand what it means.

[JonQ]

188. It's a pile of dirt,

doesn't require a genius with a PhD in archeology to figure that out. In fact actual archaelogists have not fought against it's dismantling. But I suppose they're ignorant as well.

You seem to be the only one to truly know the value of this pile of dirt. Tell me, o font of wisdom, how did you come to know it's power? Did it come to you in a dream? Did the spirits talk to you? Because people with all that fancy book-learnin' don't seem that impressed by it, so I assume you have some ulterior source of knowledge.

[L. Coyote]

191. You just keep revealing more of your ignorance with each post.

We archaeologists are fighting against this. But, the laws are not on our side.
And, appealing to reason has been futile, as you so perfectly exemplify.
The ones with the guns write the laws, that is history's lesson.
And those who wrote history with mounds and monuments have been killed.

What's left. Ignorance, it seems.

[JonQ]

192. What archeaologists?

The only ones I've seen referenced have seemed to say: tear it down, we just want whatever skeletons may be inside.


You seem to think this is part of or related to some ongoing genocide against the natives, can you back that claim? Now you're saying you are an archaeologist, from which university? It's remarkably easy to get your PhD on an internet forum, merely claim it so and it is. And what of the theory that it was merely used for sending smoke signals to distant tribes, how does that make it sacred?

And can you define exactly the value of this dirt pile? How is it unique compared to the numerous other dirt piles that have been found? Every artifact isn't sacred, or unique.

[RaleighNCDUer]

185. You know what we call that period when ignorant peasants looted

ancient Roman sites for building materials?

The Dark Ages.

Roman works were not torn down in the name of progress, but in the name of ignorance. People who had lost their culture, rooting through Roman trash trying to find something they could not produce themselves. Tourist value? You think the few sites that remain in Europe were preserved for tourist value? 200 years ago EVERYBODY thought as you do - if it has no practical purpose, it is worthless, and if it can be torn down and put to use (I really need a new cow shed) then do it.

You, sir, are a cultural barbarian who can only think to destroy what you don't understand. The arrogant conquerer, the Viking, the fucking crusader.

As for 'these people aren't Mayans' - do you KNOW that? The Maya controlled Central America from Panama to Central Mexico, at various times, and their cultural reach and trading empire extended well beyond that - the people of the Caribbean knew them, Mayan artifacts have been found as far south as Peru and as far north as US gulf coast. How do YOU know what influence the Maya might have had on the co-existant Missippian culture of North America? Or visa versa? In the near east, the Egyptians were building pyramids, but it was the Phonecians who invented western astronomy. Are the Phonecians to be ignored because they DIDN'T build pyramids? Perhaps the astronomical knowledge of the Maya came FROM the mound builders - can you prove it didn't?

More importantly, if you destroy the artifacts of the people, you will NEVER know who influenced who, or how it was done. You keep talking about the 'sacred rocks' atop the mound (very dismissively, of course) but do you know if those rocks are positioned in a way that copies a particular constellation? Has ANYBODY looked at them with that in mind? Or if they are positioned in a way that mimics the layout of Chichen Itza? Seven boulders representing seven particular structures? If you bulldoze them, will you EVER know?

Preservation of sites like this is not based on what we know - it is based on what we DON'T know.

Ripping up the mound to provide dirt for a wal mart is EXACTLY the same as the conquistadors leveling the temple pyramids of Mexico City to use the stones to build their cathedral. Destroy what the natives venerate to build your own house of worship.

Cultural imperialism. Nothing more.

[JonQ]

189. No they were torn down in the name of progress

People needed the building material, there was some available, simple solution.

And to equate using old building materials when they are available and serve no purpose with the dark ages is just absurd, I'll pretend you didn't do that.

Here's the thing you seem to be missing: we do preserve cultural artifacts. We go to great lengths to do so. But we also tend to preserve the ones that are impressive or can teach us something. No doubt finding an indian burial mound is informative. And the next one is a little less so, and so on. And after you've found hundreds of identical mounds, what do they teach you?

No doubt future societies could learn from our land fills. After a while they will stop turning up new knowledge, so I wouldn't begrudge them building over them.

Old does not equal sacred. Nor does it equal high culture, or knowledge. Sometimes old just means old.

No doubt if you had your way any spot on earth could only be built on once. At that point anything on it would become historical, even if they fall apart (sacred ruins then), or if they were poorly constructed (crude wood shacks are sacred to some people). Problem with that is you run out of land really fast. Sorry, but for me the living take precdence over the dead. And fortunately most people believe that and have rejected your dead worshiping beliefs.

[L. Coyote]

169. Obviously you do not know, but you think what you don't know is determinative.

And, obviously, you are not a Native American or you would know otherwise.

Try reading the Dresden Codex.
Try reading the mound array.

There is precise knowledge of astronomy, beyond anything know to Europe at the time of Contact.
The precise ratios of lunar orbit and solar orbit are in the codex.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Dresden+Codex+lunar+series+sidereal


You just seem to be ignorant of the facts, and therefore, assume the Natives must be ignorant.
We ain't buying it! You're ignorance does not define other cultures.

[tabasco]

180. Your stupidity is profound.

Your strident ignorance regarding the importance of history reveals you as a stupid person.

[Taitertots]

112. Someone else's pile of rocks?

That someone else died 1500 years ago. They have no claim to the rocks.

When time has passed, today's cemetery will be just a pile of stones. Do we need to preserve the grave of every single person who ever lived for all time?

Do you expect your current items to be saved for all time?

[L. Coyote]

172. Not just a pile of rocks. It is humanity's history being destroyed.

This site is a part of human history, a record of human past.
We do not know if it was "sacred" or how people thought about it.
What matters is that it evidences the past, it is how history was written there.
It is being erased. What if someone erased part of the Bible. Would that be okay
because it does not belong to people today, it is just old writing by dead people.
Some cultures write in books, some write their history with monuments!
We need to respect the past, and preserve what little history that remains.

We do not need to place "fill dirt" on top of history in our priority list.

For FUCKING FILL DIRT, for Christ's sake! How difficult is that to understand?

[JonQ]

175. Erase as many portions of the bible as you like

You can burn one too.

Or are you saying that any desecration of the bible should likewise be banned as it is part of our history?

[bobbolink]

151. There's one cemeteryin the news now that has done a great job of digging up and reselling.

Ain't capitalism GRAND??

[Lorien]

50. So are most Biblical sites

maybe you'd like to mow down history in the Holy Land? How about your ancestor's burial plots?

Just because a city official says that there's "no proof" of remains doesn't mean that remains don't exist there. They probably refuse to look.

[JonQ]

141. If the people who put faith in such monuments are still around

and controlling the areas where those monuments are then they will likely be preserved. So the holy land has many jews, muslims and christians who all view these sites with varying degrees of sacredness. The indians no longer control the land in question.

Which is not to say we should tear down any site that doesn't agree with the majority religion (like the buddhist statues destroyed by the taliban). Merely that you can't expect things which are not architecturally or archaelogically significant to be protected by todays citizens merely because 1500 years ago someone thought that pile of rocks was sacred.

[RaleighNCDUer]

144. If you are not an archeologist, then you can make no claim about

the site's archeological significance.

[Taitertots]

148. Isn't that exactly what you are doing? n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

150. It is true, i am not an archeologist -

I have merely taken university courses in archeology, work in a museum, and subscribed to National Geographic, Smithsonian and Archeology magazines for 15 years.

I speak from pure ignorance, obviously.

[Taitertots]

156. The arm chair archaeologist

Takes one class in archeology and reads National geographic, now you are the only one qualified to determine if a dirt pile is worth saving. Have you ever seen the mound in question before this thread?

So you admit that by the fact that you are not an archaeologist that you have no place claiming to know its archaeological significance.

[RaleighNCDUer]

158. No, i have not seen the mound in question. And I would some day like to.

Which is the whole fucking point.

Please, find me ONE archeologist who is in favor of the mound being hauled away as landfill.

[JonQ]

168. Here's a pic:

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/article/20090705/news/907049972

Let's bask in it's glory together shall we?

mmm, that's nice.

Truly Americas answer to the sphinx.

[JonQ]

152. No, no, that's a rookie mistake

say I can't understand if I'm not a full blooded Indian (of the tribe that built this monument), the odds that I am one are minute so it makes a response along those terms unlikely.

But by citing archeologists you leave yourself vulernable to rebuttal by people who read the article and noticed this part:

OXFORD — Archaeologists who investigated a mysterious stone mound behind the Oxford Exchange said the city should have an expert on hand as the structure is demolished in case it contains human remains.

Note they say they want someone there while it is being taken down, not that it should be left alone.

[RaleighNCDUer]

161. And THAT is a truly dumbfuck mistake -

taking a statement by a preservationist that they should preserve what they can as it is being DESTROYED as an argument FOR destroying it.

I have no doubt that given the choice of leaving it alone, or catching what information that might be found as it is being destroyed FOREVER, the archeologist would favor leaving it alone. In the event that it IS destroyed, having an archeologist on hand is a fallback position.

BTW, if it IS archeologically insignificant WHY WOULD AN ARCHEOLOGIST WANT TO BE ON HAND AS IT IS DESTROYED?

[JonQ]

163. They want to be there for precisely the reason stated in the quote

because they want to collect the human remains.

Wanting to collect ancient human remains for study = worshiping a pile of dirt (in your mind).

I'd think if they were adamantly opposed to it they'd say they were adamantly opposed to it.

Like if someone threatened to kill your dog I doubt your response would be, oh well can I keep the collar to remember him by? More likely it would be, no don't do that.

So you taking their lack of protest at the hills use to mean they must oppose it is truly, in your words, a 'dumbfuck mistake'. You know, the KKK hasn't said they're opposed to it either, which means they are definitely opposed to it, which means you're siding with the klan. For shame.

See how silly it is to make assumptions about peoples beliefs based on the logic: absence of comment = disapproval?

[RaleighNCDUer]

186. You didn't answer my question.

If it is archeologically insignificant, why do archeologists want to be on hand when it is destroyed?

Please note I said 'when' it is destroyed - they know, as I know, that nine out of ten times "progress" (meaning money and payoffs) wins over archeological value. They expect to lose this fight - as do most people who go up against wal mart.

What I don't understand is WHY you would support a corrupt town mayor and a soulless corporation so strongly.

[JonQ]

193. Actually I did answer your question

and it was in the quote. A failure to read and comprehend on your part does not equal a failure to respond on my part.

They said, and I repeated, and now shall repeat for a 2nd and final time: they wanted to be there in case any human remains were discovered. Because the remains would be of value, the hill was not.

[Robeson]

181. What an ignorant comment.

[Ignis]

33. Ugh, can we get more federal oversight here, please?

:shrug:

[JitterbugPerfume]

35. this makes me so sad

[CrownPrinceBandar]

36. Unfortunately, this happens alot..............

I've personally worked on a Monongahela village site that had to be excavated because of a shopping center going in. There were various occupation areas and human remains on this site and we had to contact the indigenous council at the Cattaraugus Indian reservation in NY to come and claim the remains. Unfortunately, much effort was given to trying to preserve the site, but end the end the "powers that be" decided that the site had to be recovered and the human remains relocated. The funny thing about it was that a few years earlier, construction was disallowed at the site for a big-box store. That store was Wal-Mart.

website of our excavation:
http://forthillarchaeology.com

edit: fixed link. Also I can be seen working a shovel on the front page of the site. Middle section of 4 photos, most L photo. I'm the guy in the shorts and green hat

[RaleighNCDUer]

126. The big problem with this, of course, is that this is not a site with artifacts

which rescue archeology can recover - here, the site IS the artifact. When it's gone, it is gone.

Too many people seem to think archeology is only about Europe and the Near East, and maybe Central America. If it doesn't have great cut stone remains, it doesn't count. So much more can be learned about an ancient people by examination of a village site or a 'simple' mound than most people realize.

[Confusious]

42. I'm hoping there's ghosts on the mound

And they curse wallymart.

[omega minimo]

47. Why does Sam's Club hate America?

and Americans?

[TexasObserver]

49. recommend this important topic

[PufPuf23]

52. There is Alabama Indian Mound Protection Statutes

One wonders how this was addressed in the permit process?


The Law and American Indian Grave Protection
Alabama Laws
When contacted April 2001 as to burial laws, Greg Rhinehart, Alabama's State Archaeologist specifically referred to Citation 13A-7-23.1 and the Alabama Historical Commission Chapter 460-x-10 and sent material on them reproduced at the links above.

Aboriginal mounds and burials are covered in Citation: Aboriginal Mounds, Earthworks and Other Antiquities (Alabama Code §41-3-1 to §41-3-6); Alabama Cemetery and Human Remains Protection Act (93-905); Burials (Alabama Historical Commission Chapter 460-x-10). The Aboriginal Mounds, Earthworks and Other Antiquities Act claims state ownership of all antiquities in the state including mounds, prehistoric burials; prehistoric and historic forts and earthworks; and the materials contained within these resources. Non-state residents are prohibited from excavating these resources although private land owners may allow a non-resident to excavate mounds and burials on private lands so long as the artifacts remain in the state. Further, the law specifically states that excavation should not damage crops or houses on private lands. Alabama places responsibility for implementing its preservation laws in the Alabama Historical Commission (AHC), which is responsible for the issuing of permits for the excavation, relocation, and/or restoration of cemeteries and human remains. All permits are issued by the Director of the AHC after consultation and coordination between interested or concerned parties including, where appropriate, the Indian Affairs Commission and other groups representing significant cultural or ethnic affiliations. If burials to be disturbed for any reason have been interred for 75 years or longer, or the date of interment is undetermined, the permittee shall consult with the AHC. Any person who knows of the discovery of human remains and/or funerary objects on state or private land ceases any and all land-disturbing activity and notifies the AHC immediately. Any person who willfully or maliciously desecrates an American Indian place of burial or funerary objects on property not owned by that person, or injures, defaces, removes or destroys any tomb, monument or container of human remains, and invades or mutilates the human corpse or remains is guilty of a Class C felony.

Summaries follow of burial/archaeological laws yielded through a keyword search for "archaeology" and "burial" on 2001 March 30 at the State Historic Preservation Legislation Database found at the NCSL (National Conference of State Legislatures) web site, that database then updated through 1999. These summaries are reprinted under the Fair Use doctrine of international copyright law which may be found at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

Ibsgwatch.org is not responsible for any inaccuracies or timeliness of information.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alabama Historical Commission Chapter 460-x-10. This link goes to a summary made available by the Alabama State Archaeologist.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Code Book: Code of Alabama
Citation: §13A-7-23.1. This link goes to a summary made available by the Alabama State Archaeologist.
Section Title: Desecration, defacement, etc., of memorial of dead

Summary:

(d) Directs the Alabama Historical Commission to promulgate rules and regulations for the issuance of permits to provide for the lawful preservation, investigation, restoration or relocation of human burial remains, human skeletal remains or funerary objects and enables the commission to issue such permits to persons or companies who seek to restore, preserve or relocate such remains or funerary objects, or otherwise disturb a place of burial.


Primary Topic: Archeological Activities


Secondary Topic:
Disposition of Human Remains
Permit / Site Investigation Authority

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Code Book: Code of Alabama
Citation: §41- 3-1 through §41-3-6
Section Title: Aboriginal mounds, earthworks and other antiquities
Date Enacted: 1915, amended 1993.
Summary:

Reserves for the state the exclusive right and privilege to explore, excavate or survey through its authorized officers, agents or employees, all aboriginal mounds and other antiquities, earthworks, ancient forts and burial sites within the state, subject to the consent of the owner of the land upon which such remains are situated, for cultural, domestic or industrial purposes. Prohibits such explorations or excavations from destroying, defacing or permanently injuring such remains, and requires that the remains be restored to the same condition as before such explorations or excavations were made. Declares ownership by the state of any and all objects which may be located therein, and forbids sale or disposal of such objects outside of the state. Prohibits persons not resident of the state from exploring or excavating such remains. Establishes a fine of not more than $1000 for each offense that is contrary to this section.

http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/learn/alabamalaw.htm

[eppur_se_muova]

53. The sad fate of a great many NA mounds and other structures ...

Hidden Cities: The Discovery and Loss of Ancient North American Civilization (Paperback)
by Roger G. Kennedy

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Cities-Discovery-American-Civilization/dp/0140255273

[madfloridian]

55. An Archeologists view....good article.

http://archaeology.org/blog/?p=590

"Since then, I am sorry to say, the intense public interest in prehistoric mounds has largely dissipated. Indeed as archaeologists learn more and more about the rich variety of mound-building cultures, from the Poverty Point people to the Hopewell, fewer and fewer people take any notice. We seem, somehow, to have misplaced our sense of awe and wonder. And perhaps this is why politicians in Oxford, Alabama, recently gave a private contractor the right to level a major prehistoric mound for fill dirt for the foundation of a new big box store—Sam’s Club, owned by Walmart.

Local archaeologists and Native Americans are up in arms about this. As Jacksonville State University archaeologist Harry Holstein pointed out in one article, “There is substantial ethnographic and archaeological evidence from similar stone mound sites throughout the eastern United States that these stone mounds, walls and effigies atop mountains, ridges and plateaus were built to commemorate deceased loved ones and important events and bury sacred offerings.”

But when the opponents voiced their deep concerns about the destruction of the mound, Oxford’s mayor and city project manager apparently shrugged them off. According to a report in a local paper, The Anniston Star, Mayor Leon Smith claimed the mound was used for little more than sending smoke signals. I find this a bizarre and belittling claim, one that flies in the face of scientific evidence on mound-building cultures and the ceremonial way in which they often raised these impressive earthen edifices.

I think that Oxford’s politicians have really sent us all the wrong signal here. What we need is far more respect for those who first walked this great continent of ours, not another Sam’s Club.

Just something to think about this 4th of July."

[Cronus Protagonist]

57. A mound with no camel toe?

Not as interesting.

[nostalgicaboutmyfutr]

59. Pictures, people, pictures!!!

1000 words and all that....pictures help return the awe that poor writing take away....

[L. Coyote]

61. This link in the OP has a photo series:

http://www.deepfriedkudzu.com/2009/07/oxford-alabama-destroying-1500-year-old.html

[L. Coyote]

62. Google Earth coordinates

33.603346, -85.778635

Note there was circular form some 70-80 meters across atop the hill.
That would probably have a very early date in the mound sequence.

[Ken Burch]

63. This could be the next "Amityville Horror" if Hollywood got ahold of it.

Burial mound destroyed to build a "Sam's Club", followed by Sam's Club being leveled in the night by vengeful Native American spirits.

[Libertas1776]

68. I would never set foot in that place.

I can't imagine the horrors that will be inflicted by vengeful spirits. The walls will drip blood and ooze, ash will fall from the ceiling, there will be banshee like screaming and gnashing of teeth and skulls will rise out of the....oh wait a minute, it's like that at Wal-Mart everyday.


A pox on Wal-Mart.

[Ken Burch]

72. Oh My God....does THIS explain those "Home Depot Deaths"?

n/t.

[and-justice-for-all]

66. Lets just pave the entire fucking country...

coast to coast and north to south!! :sarcasm:

[bobbolink]

70. If this is a crime, it should be prosecuted. If it isn't a crime, it should be.

This is very painful to read.

BASTA!!

[ColbertWatcher]

71. I wonder if Sanford's anti-stimulus beliefs are behind this? n/t

[Ken Burch]

77. Sanford LIKES stimulus. Just not the economic kind.

[ColbertWatcher]

93. ...

http://instantrimshot.com/

[G_j]

74. scum of the earth nt

[sasquatch]

78. Alabamians?

[G_j]

87. --

Oxford politicians, Sams Club

[tabasco]

79. This is worse than the Taliban destroying giant Buddhist statues

They did it for warped ideology.

We're just doing it for a fucking store.

[L. Coyote]

99. Not for a store, just for the fill dirt. Just for the FILL DIRT. For FILL DIRT!!! &**%##@*&

They need some fill dirt! That is why an important and unique prehistoric monuments is being destroyed. FILL DIRT!

[RaleighNCDUer]

114. Corporatism IS a warped ideology. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

139. The mound and the Buddhas both date from @ 500AD.

Just as a side note.

[Sebastian Doyle]

82. In a twisted way, this actually makes sense

Wal Mart has done so much to bury this country, they might as well make it official and locate themselves in burial grounds.

And I hope the spirits kick their asses, just like in Poltergeist.

[Webster Green]

84. Man, I hate Alabamee!

Racist right wing fucking shithole.

Very sad! :thumbsdown:

[mntleo2]

86. LtteTo Alderman and Mayor:

Hello:

When Jesus was asked by his contemporaries who were the rich elitists like the Waltons who own Sam's Club, He was asked, "To whom should everyone pay taxes to? They knew this question was a trap. If Jesus said not to pay taxes to the Romans, He would have been committing treason and facing death. If He said TO pay taxes, Jesus would have immediately become a pariah to his own people, especially the poor and disenfranchised who loved Him, since the poor were most burdened with those taxes. Jesus asked to see a common coin that had the likeness of Caesar on it. He asked the self righteous, "Whose likeness is on this coin?" And the elitists said, "Ceasar's likeness is on that coin." Jesus then flipped the coin in the air and said, "Render unto Caesar's that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's ..." The wealthy went away muttering as they had nothing to say to Jesus' reply. The reason the elitists were so mad is that as religious leaders of the time who were occupied and in the pay of the corrupt government their people hated, this government who demanded that they worship Ceasar instead of God, these elitists were mad because Jesus had exposed their own hypocrisy and how they lived off their own people in exchange for their riches.

Because anyone who loves God, especially these so-called "leaders, the rich and elite of Jesus' time, knows that nothing really belonged to Caesar nor does anything belong to any of us, because everything in the world and indeed in the universe, it all belongs to God.

The people in Jesus' time had little choice to pay taxes as do we ~ though because we can elect our leaders in our modern society and we let our elected officials decide what to do with our money in contrast to the people in Jesus time who had NO say, they just had to pay. Sometimes it is hard to understand people who use the taxes of We The People and have no respect for history or any respect for the dead ~ especially when the "dead" were not white. I live in Seattle and clear up here we are hearing of your destruction of a 1500 year old Native American burial mound in order to build a cheap, invasive Sam's Club. I am beyond appalled and angry at your short sighted and completely irresponsible decision to further enable people who are tearing down our world systematically.

I might add here that Mississippi is the poorest of all the states, yet it is the poor who make the biggest sacrifices to pay you your taxes, paying 11% of their incomes in taxes versus the elite, upper income the upper 1% who pay almost half of this, 5,3%. http://www.itepnet.org/wp2000/text.pdf Like in Jesus' time the poor in this nation are burdened far more than the rich with the taxes they are required to pay. Yet you consider using We The People's Tax dollars to supplement these gluttonous people's desire to destroy a priceless 1500 year old burial mound, so these avaricious elitists can make even more.

First of all, I am sure you are aware that these people who own Sam's Club are exploitative billionaires who routinely cause the death and misery of thousands of workers around the world, paying them nothing and living on their backs, the Waltons who also own WalMart. In America, they are known http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/18/national/18WALM.html">to lock their workers inside their stores at night in order to force them to work for nothingin order to make sure every penny, even ones that were stolen from these peoples' time, is theirs. Obviously the *only* thing this greedy family worship is money, even though they profess to be Christians.

Maybe you don't go to church. Maybe you don't care about what God owns. Still respect for our fore bearers should be important no matter what you believe. But many of us do care about God and anyone who professes to be a child of God would know that everything in the universe belongs to God. And if we are made stewards of anything of God's it is our solemn duty to treat it wisely and use it by obeying what Jesus told use were the two greatest Commandments: "Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself ..." Are you truly loving your neighbor, treating the poor respectfully or taking care of God's world by destroying this sacred mound? These burial mounds belong to God, which these people of Sam's Club, and perhaps YOU forget or think belong to them. If they were true stewards of God it would be unthinkable to destroy such a precious thing!

This is why Jesus also said, "It is harder for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle ..."


VERY Sincerely yours,
Cat In Seattle
Name, address and phone number included

--
>^..^<

[BOG PERSON]

88. It's a metaphor for the past 400 years of settlement in North America

[tomm2thumbs]

90. Let's dig up a pyramid and put a Sam's Club there too - make any more sense?

I hope the Native American services bureau has observers to verify the 'no remains' issue. If they don't find any, then throw a few old human bones into the dirt and stop the project entirely. Would serve them right.

[travelingtypist]

94. Lawsuit, injunctions tried and failed?

Has to be a way to preserve this.

:cry:

[shadowknows69]

95. I hope the spirits go all "Poltergeist" on their asses

[H2O Man]

96. We were able to

save similar mounds in NYS in the late 1990s, by using two of the federal laws (along with state policies). I'm surprised that no one is making a serious challenge in this situation.

[rasputin1952]

97. I have to wonder how they would feel if people went to their

family plots and set up hotdog and taco stands over the graves of their ancestors. Maybe sell some cheap beer too, just to fill those bladders up so other monuments can be used as urinals in the same cemetery.

It is abhorrant to me, that their family sites are considered "sacred", but those of Native Americans are not...that is truly disgusting.

It has been said, "everyone has their price", apparently, those in this city work on the cheap.

[Deep13]

100. Stonehenge would be a great place for a landfill. nt

[Swede]

113. They could crush the rocks,use the gravel to build roads.

Just sayin'

[L. Coyote]

125. Thornborough henge, Stonehenge of the north, was damaged by a gravel quarry!

http://www.google.com/search?q=thornborough+henges+gravel

[BlueIris]

102. Holy crap!

Yikers.

[BREMPRO]

103. More evidence corporate/fascist America carries on the brutal legacy of our forefathers genocide...

of Native Americans. We killed and captured them, now Sam Walton and Leon Smith are pissing on their grave. Shameful.

[dugaresa]

105. sadly most americans wouldn't even flinch if a wal-mart were constructed on the Washington DC Mall

that is my opinion.

[lib2DaBone]

107. Hooo-boy.... bad Karma. I wouldn't want to work in that store...

[Juan_de_la_Dem]

115. So they are destroying the mound to get the dirt underneath?

Is there no other source of dirt in Alabama?

[L. Coyote]

123. Exactly. The taxpayers are moving the dirt to fill a lot so Wal-Mart can build a store.

Go figure!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

124. More precisely, they are mining the dirt from the mound.

Because it was a built mound they can dig it out knowing that there are no boulders or even large rocks in it, as it was built by hand-carrying millions of wicker baskets full of dirt and piling the dirt up, then tamping it down. They know that qualities of the dirt of which the mound is made, and it doesn't need any kind of sifting or sorting to get an even quality.

It's rather like the peasants stealing the cut stone from Roman monuments to build their barns with.

[Enrique]

130. I hope the Indians haunt the hell out of it n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

131. Stories like this literally make me sick to my stomach.....and so very very tired.

[Joe Chi Minh]

133. There is a similar controvesy going on in Oz at the moment over the

Aboriginal's sacred (most sacred?) site, Uluru or Ayres Rock. It's rather disappointing to see their PM, Kevin Rudd on the side of the heedless rubber-neckers.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2009/07/12/2003448419

[RaleighNCDUer]

145. I have always wanted to clime Ayres Rock-

and I never will, even if I should get the chance to visit.

I may not hold to the natives' beliefs about its sacredness, but I can respect their culture and their wishes to NOT indulge myself at their expense.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

157. This is right out of a "The Sinpsons" episode

Lisa tried to save burial site from shopping center developers.

[Bryn]

162. I am looking forward to when employees of Sam's Club call Ghost Hunters

we can all watch it on TeeVee when TAPS go there. lol

[proud patriot]

165. didn't they see the movie Poltergiest ?

:crazy: