A Polywell fusion primer. Disrupt this technology.

[FogerRox]

Everyone in the Polywell fusion forum, talk polywell.org has been very excited over the last few months, as details have emerged on a 2 year program of building test Polywells to flesh out how plasma behaves in a Polywell.

In a nut shell D. Nebel @ EMC2Fusion in Santa Fe says he will will know within 2 years if Polywell is boom or bust. Net Power Proton Boron fusion by 2015. Commercial rollout 2020.


And now let me put aside the scientific mumbo jumbo and break it down for those non geek sciencey types.

Dr Bussards development of the Polywell started after he begain to have doubts about the Tokamak fusion research that he and then Dir. US Atomic Energy Commission, Robert Hirsch had advocated for in the early 1970's. Dr Bussard passed away not too long ago, but his work has continued @ EMC2Fusion under Dr Rick Nebel.

Polywell fusion is spherical instead of the donut shape of the Tokamak. Polywell accelerates particles so fast, when they hit, they cause fusion. Anyway, do you remember how 2 magnets can repulse or attract each other? Well Electrons and magnetic fields can do the same, heres how:

We start out with 6 ring shaped magnets like this:



We then put that core in a vacuum chamber:



And we squirt some electrons into the middle as we apply electricity to the magnets, the magnetic fields squeeze down on the electrons, who huddle together in solidarity... and push back at the magnetic fields.

Now electrons are wild and crazy particles, they are just filled with energy, always moving and spinning around and stuff. Lets call that kinetic energy. But the Magnetic fields are squeezing down so hard on the electrons, the electrons can hardly move, so the kinetic energy becomes potential energy. This is called a potential well, and it behaves like a gravity well.

So on to the fusion. If we now inject our fuel ions (in gas form) just inside the magnetic fields, the ions see the potential well and are attracted to it, they race from the edge to the center, if an ion doesn't crash into another ion, the ion just ends up shooting across to the other side, where it sees the potential well and starts its plunge all over again. When the ions do crash into each other you get fusion.

To be clear this is a disruptive technology. Polywells can replace the 75% of our electricity we get from coal and fission nuke generation. By 2050 liquid fuels will be quaint, petroleum reserves supplying the plastics industry and niche transportation needs. Electricity's role in transportation will grow as liquid fuel's role shrinks.

Polywell fusion plants on the Moon, La Grange point stations powered by Polywell's. Fusion powered space ships, Mars in 38 days, Saturn in 76 days.

Top Polywell Comments 6/21/09

Bob Guyer from 6/21/09:

If this works and then is rapidly deployed to eliminate coal, and then liquid fuels, it would obviously make a big difference in our ability to radically reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

Top Polywell Comment for May 2009

By TylerFromNE

We know the physical economics of fusion.

Namely, that it's the most powerful known reaction in the universe other than matter-antimatter annihilation. Of course, since antimatter almost certainly doesn't exist in nature (as an aside, the reason why there's matter at all, and why matter and antimatter weren't both annihilated in the first seconds of the universe's existence, is a rather perplexing unanswered question in physics), nuclear fusion is the most energetic source of power known to exist.

It is therefore a certainty that, at a large enough scale, nuclear fusion is the most economical form of power generation.

And finally here is the Fusion for Dummies video from the Polywell fusion wiki:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmp1cg3-WDY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell

This is part 2 of a 3 part series, part one is here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5953739&mesg_id=5953739

I just posted part 3:



Thanks for the recs.

[Mythsaje]

1. Oh, yeah... SF becoming science fact. Again.

Amazing how that happens.

[FogerRox]

3. Star Trek Warp engine, Bussard collectors

Based on the Bussard Ramjet.

[FogerRox]

27. Better graphic

[redqueen]

2. Fascinating.

Thank you for this post. :)

[FogerRox]

4. Thank you for your consideration. And a Reccomendation would be lovely....

Heres part one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5953630

[bananas]

7. k&r & waiting for part 3... nt

[FogerRox]

8. Thank you bananas, part 3 is..... coming

[FogerRox]

14. Part 3 is now up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5954054

[redqueen]

11. Done...

and thanks for the link to part one. :)

[FogerRox]

17. Thanks, heres part 3:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5954054

[The Straight Story]

5. + 2 * our national debt

:)

[FogerRox]

6. 3 votes, thank you for your recomendations

[The_Commonist]

9. Cool...

[billyoc]

10. That's no moon...

:scared:

[FogerRox]

24. And the Moon has lots of helium in the soil (regolith). Helium is an

excellent fusion fuel. The power to build cities on the moon and in orbit, the power to become a space faring race.

[nebenaube]

34. Damn... first contact is not far off...

or would they try to stop us?

[johnaries]

12. Away to Greatest Page with you!

[FogerRox]

18. Thank you.

[Uncle Joe]

13. That does seem to have exciting potential,

the design seems logical.

Thanks for the thread and links, FogerRox:thumbsup:

[PurgedVoter]

15. K&R nt

[Canuckistanian]

16. Imagine how huge this would be if achieved?

Life changing. Humanity changing.

Here's hoping.....

K&R

[FogerRox]

19. Mars, shutting down coal plants, just 2 of my favorite things

[truedelphi]

36. The "experts" are often such naysayers - we are so doomed they say

"No way can a new technology come along and help us out."

But throughout history - hasn't there always been some new thing on the horizon that has helped us out? Just as the rotten, scum sucking politicians started to really sell us down the river, the internets sprang to life.

And before that - we had the private mini-helicopters that allowed all of us to avoid the long commutes in cars (Oh wait - that one was promised back in the '50's but never materialized.)

But the exploration of the New World of the Americas eased much of the over crowding and rampant wars that wou d have occurred if the over populatied Europe circa 1600's and 1700's had not been able to use these shores as an alternate location.

And in the 1970's, the people of Norway managed to discover a huge reserve of off-shore oil in the seventies - just before their nation would have gone broke from creating too many Utopian social programs.

So I think this will indeed come to pass, and tomorrow I am going to search around in the garage for my magnet collection.

[rumpel]

20. Hi, FogerRox

:hi:

Nice series. I am hopeful that this works and is implemented fast - before we lose all the ice at the poles.

The Fusion for Dummies is nice animation, too...reminds me of sacred geometry.

[FogerRox]

23. Hello Rumpel ! Yeah really, 1/2 the oil is gone and whats left is the tick nasty stuff

And that oil is deeper, and in smaller formations.

Right now I advocate for enlarging our energy portfolio, take everything and use it, bio diesel, from fryer fat, oil from seeds, what ever, solar, wind, tidal, including fission nukes. We have to make the breakthru that gives us thermonuclear fusion, or otherwise we'll never make a significant step off this planet as the Human Race.

[Wednesdays]

21. K&R

:kick:

[ElboRuum]

22. Seems very promising...

...but as with all fusion research, I will believe it when I see it. I've been disappointed too many times. Both with the tech and with the getting out more than you put in timetable.

[FogerRox]

26. Um, yes, Promising.

I really wanna go to Mars.

[FogerRox]

25. Part one is getting major love, but, Heres Links for parts one and three

Part one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5953630

Part three, needs some love.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5954054

[surrealAmerican]

28. Very cool. Nice explanation too.

k & r, and thank you.

[FogerRox]

29. My Pleasure, thank you.

[yodermon]

30. have they produced an over unity reaction yet?

sorry if this has been answered in your links, looks very interesting!

[FogerRox]

31. We'll know in 2 yrs, if Dr Nebel thinks Polywell is worth scaling

up to a Net Power size by 2015. Just as importantly Proton Boron fusion by 2010. Nobody uses Unity anymore, Its Q=1+, net power.

[nebenaube]

33. just for the sake of being on the record...

I watched the google tech talk video and something tells me that this will indeed work as desired...

[wroberts189]

32. I really hope technology like this saves us... we got no fallback plan. knr/nt

[lonestarnot]

35. Thanks fogerrox

K & R

[Wilms]

37. .

[tomreedtoon]

38. Just creating antimatter to blow up the Vatican.

Yes, that's an Angels and Demons reference. Because this technology is just as fictional. Call me when you have a megawatt reactor you can carry in the back of an SUV.

[Soylent Brice]

39. this stuff is amazing. this has me really excited.

i can't wait to see how this pans out!

[swishyfeet]

40. The pictures have improved since the paper I wrote in 7th grade almost 30 years ago

Thanks for the great info, but forgive me if I don't get all excited.

Makes me wonder how all the goofballs awaiting Jesus' return manage to keep their spirits up. Heck, I'd say it's about even money whether we get the rapture or nucular fusion first.

[Statistical]

41. Not to be a wet blanket but it hasn't been proven to produce a net positive of energy.

While I believe it is a better design than the Farnsworth-Hirsch reactor it has problems.

The Farnsworth-Hirsch reactor has a similar concept but instead it has a central fine mesh grid that attracts the ions. When ions strike each other they fuse but most of the time they strike the grid and eventually the grid is destroyed.

This design is improved in that there is no central grid at risk of collision however the reactor has never produced a sustained reaction. It also has never produced more power than the power required to run the containment field. Equal power would be a unity reaction (power output = power input). A unity reaction is important because virtually no reactions are capped at unity. Reactions tend to be either net loss of power (and no amount of improvement will change that) or net producers of energy (and further improvement will increase the net gain).

The team has built 6 reactors and all have failed in the past.
The man who invented this device Dr. Bussard died in 2007.

The company has limped along with minimal funding. The Navy has kept it alive by providing funding.

Following submission of the final WB-7 results in December 2008, Dr Richard Nebel commented that "There's nothing in there (the research) that suggests this will not work," but that "That's a very different statement from saying that it will work."

Still no definitive proof the reactor can reach unity. This reaction may always be a net loss of energy (reactor uses more energy than it produces).

Worst still the team seems to suggest that they may not be able to achieve unity until they build a full sized reactor which could cost $200M+. Who would want to take the risk and build a $200M reactor based on unproven technology only to find out that "oops it is a net loss of energy" = never be a functional reactor.

The technology is interesting however your OP kind hints that it is just around the corner when in reality the corner may not be possible ever (not tomorrow, not in 100,000 years) based on physics.

[MGKrebs]

42. Nebel is likely restricted in what he can say.

It appears that this is classified research, so I wouldn't read too much into that statement.

But what I want to know is, what do we do with the reaction if/when it works? We always seem to end up boiling water or burning something to create steam to drive a turbine. Is that the gig here too?

[backscatter712]

44. A couple things.

A Proton/Boron-11 reaction produces a huge amount of alpha particles, and the Polywell people were talking about installing devices that could convert the energy from those alpha particles into electricity.

Also, there's the classic route of piping fluid around the reactor, so as to capture the thermal radiation, converting it into heat, and using that heat to create steam and spin a turbine.

I'd suspect that a production reactor would use both approaches, at least to some extent, so as to capture the maximum amount of energy and make electricity.

[Statistical]

45. Well he could have said nothing.

If I am restricted in what I can say I would take the easiest route and say nothing.




Yeah the energy is a whole additional problem.

Most reactors (be it fission, burning coal, etc) produce heat and that is the primary output energy which like you said boils water to drive a turbine.

With Aneutronic fusion a substantial portion of the released energy is Bremsstrahlung radiation or "braking radiation" which is releaaed as x rays.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung

Any aneutronic reaction would need to produce energy in other forms to overcome this lost energy.
Some scientists believe the losses from Bremsstrahlung are so great that it is impossible to overcome in p-B reactions. There is a lot of debate because it is like trying to prove a negative. Nobody has yet done it but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

This reactor may work. I am not saying it won't but what we need to accept is it is mathematically possible that the max this reactor can produce is <1.00 unit of usable energy per 1 unit of input energy used to power it.

That would make it a cheap, elegant method to contain fusion reactions for scientific research & experiments but worthless as a reactor (of power generation) where we want >1.00 : 1.00 energy exchange.

[FogerRox]

52. Ahem,. Aneutronic fusion means no neutrons, Additionally there is no thermalization

to cause Bremsstrahlung radiation -nope. No Thermalization of electrons. Electrons in the potential well are cold and the electrons at the edge are to few to thermalize properly for Bremsstrahlung radiation, so sorry no xrays.


Proton Boron-11 fusion.




Christ if WB-7 was cranking out xrays, all the staff has been irradiated by now, I think Dr Nebel has all well in hand.

[Statistical]

62. Care to point to paper showing 0 Bremsstrahlung radiation in polywell simulations?

By anyone credible.

Dr Bussard wrote a couple papers on minimizing Bremsstrahlung. Why would he do that if it is already 0..

Many other pysasicts have rejected the notion that Bremsstrahlung can be minimized and if it can't then losses via Bremsstrahlung make the reaction unusable.

Nobody anywhere is saying Bremsstrahlung = 0. The debate is on the level of Bremsstrahlung and if the power produced by the reactor can overcome that loss.

Aneutronic fusion means no neutrons
In theory yes. In real world there will be neutron contamination. Aneutronic in the real world means low levels of neutrons not 0. Nobody has yet achieved an absence of neutrons.

[FogerRox]

50. No Thermal plant, direct conversion of Alphas to electricity

Basically a 30-35 ft building, transformers outside, leading to power lines.

[FogerRox]

49. 200 mill is for the whole project.

[Statistical]

61. 200 million for something that hasn't achieved unity?

That is a leap of faith and if $200 million later it turns out the reaction is always <1 unit out for 1 unit in then what?

If they can't get a unity reaction with the next prototype I don't see any investor (Navy included) willing to jump to the next step as a $200 mil leap of faith.

[votingupstart]

43. k&r - keep up the work - nt

[The Doctor.]

46. I got $20 says you're an A. C. Clark, S. Baxter fan.

If not, I'll spend that $20 to make sure you get a couple books.

It's a safe bet though. ;)



Fusion is the most important next step humanity can take. I only worry that TPTB may work to keep the prosperity at bay.

[FogerRox]

53. meh, David Weber?

[The Doctor.]

55. Uh, you didn't just 'Meh' Arthur C. Clark....

'Cause then you and I would have ta' throw down on some stuff.

:evilgrin:

Seriously, when it comes to seriously crunchy Sci-Fi (you know, the kind of stuff from the past that the present is made of?), Clark is responsible for making our current reality a, ummm... reality.

And Baxter ain't far behind. (Actually, he tends to project by many thousands of years.)

So, you just 'meh'd' your way to 20 bucks and I'll be fair about it.

Any addy or PO Box and I'll shoot you one each of both authors if you'd like. (PM me)

Meanwhile, I've held many a David Weber book in my hands on advice of friends but never had the occasion to read one. So I'll remedy that within... hold on.... Nope, not on the shelf... give me a week.

If you like physics, engineering, and fusion, I'm amazed you've been able to breathe without A. C. Clark. Your rec better be worth what I've heard too.

;)

[FogerRox]

56. I meant recently, Clark is so, couple of decades ago. But the 1947 paper is a biggie

I remember when Rendezvous with Rama was new.

[The Doctor.]

58. You Dang Whippersnappers have No IDEA what guys like HIM did for Science Fiction!

Satellites wouldn't be quite where they are, and the space elevator wouldn't be in the (early) stages that it is.

Seriously... what would be 'cutting edge' for you? I'd love to know that Baxter, Simmons, and Gibson have long since been overtaken. I need new stuff to read.

Now... If Weber can rival those, I'm all on board.

But them's is giants of an order I've yet to see overshadowed, so...

Give me something by Weber... I'll check it out.

[FogerRox]

60. Weber is the King of Space opera

Not so much better. Webers space battles are intense. Weber can tactically describe how a young 1st time commanding a task force defends the local system against 3-1 one odds in a way that has you on the edge of your seat as the young CO lays a trap.

Webers Honor Harrington series is best of class. Rama and Foundation are entirely different in class and intent. If you wanna check him out, he published many books with a Series CD included, Weber made it clear that he had made a ton of money on the series so he started including the complete works of Honor Harrington on Cd......infact......

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4469754/The_Complete_Honor_Harrington_By_David_Weber

I think thats it.

Bibliography

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/w/david-weber/

[The Doctor.]

59. Dupe

[autorank]

47. Kick for intellect n/t

[Quantess]

48. Looks interesting.

[HughMoran]

51. One of the most interesting posts I've ever read on DU

I hope this technology meets it's potential - we need fusion to solve our energy problem.

[backscatter712]

54. I watched Dr. Bussard's lecture at Google

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1996321846673788606&ei=HRhMSpOmDoGOqQPX9qzOBA&q=bussard+polywell+google

Yeah, I'm sold on the potential of Polywell fusion. Is it definitely going to work? Don't know yet, but seeing the discussion at talk-polywell.org, hearing the new news, and finding out about the funding of Polywell research by the Obama administration says to me it's quite promising, a lot more promising than the conventional Tokamak approach.

It's certainly worth developing. Maybe it'll run into a dead end, but I have a feeling it might turn into the first viable electricity-producing nuclear fusion reactor. And if they can get Proton/Boron-11 fusion working, it'll be hugely cleaner than even conventional tritium/deuterium fusion, which in turn is a hell of a lot cleaner than nuclear fission. It would literally change the world - we can ditch fossil fuels, we can clean up our carbon emissions and deal with global warming, we can build spaceships that can reach Mars from Earth in a month, we can explore the Solar System.

It's a gamble, but I'll call it a gamble worth playing.

[omega minimo]

57. Thank you from the future, where things are not so black and white