Drunk driver who killed movie director Bob Clark and his 22-year-old son is an illegal immigrant

[brentspeak]

If this creep was deported the first time law enforcement became aware of him (as he should have), Clark and his son would still be alive.

..................................................................
http://www.fresnobee.com/384/story/40111.html

Immigration hold placed on man arrested in LA filmmaker's death
By JEREMIAH MARQUEZ
04/05/07 17:34:08

Federal authorities have placed an immigration hold on a 24-year-old Mexican national arrested on suspicion of driving drunk and causing the crash that killed "A Christmas Story" director Bob Clark and his son, officials said Thursday.

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement put the hold Wednesday on Hector Velazquez-Nava, an illegal immigrant living in Los Angeles, said agency spokeswoman Virginia Kice.

The action means Velazquez-Nava will be turned over to federal immigration officials and placed in deportation proceedings once his local case is completed. He was arrested for investigation of driving under the influence of alcohol and gross vehicular manslaughter, and was being held on $100,000 bail in a county jail.

[mike_c]

1. oh for crying out loud-- the drunk driver who killed someone near my house...

...a few months ago was a full citizen, born and bred. What difference do you think citizenship makes to either the dead or the living?

[ComerPerro]

6. no kidding. BillO ran a similar story last night to this one.

So what if the driver was an illegal? Americans drive drunk all the time, and on many occasions someone dies. Its tragic, yes. But its not as though one-time drunk drivers are taken off the road permenantly. Hell, our President and Vice President are both repeat offender drunk drivers.

[Tom Joad]

58. Here's the video. Man, o'really must be takin some strong bp pills.

he went bonkers.

enjoy.
http://www.oliverwillis.com/2007/04/bill_oreilly_lo.html

[ComerPerro]

72. So that WAS last night. Fuck. I really wish I had kept watching. I would have shit my pants

to see that on live TV

[Catherine Vincent]

166. WTF? Billo was losing it!

Would he get that upset if a legal drunk American had killed an innocent person?

[Kajsa]

317. O'Reilly IS nuts.

I am 100% certain of that now.

[LeftishBrit]

237. Too true...

Bush started as the reckless driver of a car; went on to be the reckless driver of the state of Texas; and is now the reckless driver steering the whole United States of America to disaster, and knocking down many other countries on the way.

[liberalhistorian]

170. The difference is pretty stark. The illegal shouldn't have

been in the country illegally in the first place. The key word is ILLEGAL. That means they are not an IMMIGRANT but here ILLEGALLY. Clark and his son would still be alive today had they been deported when they should have been. I would think that difference would be pretty clear.

[jgraz]

208. "the illegal"

Otherwise known as "the human being". Key word is HUMAN.

[spoony]

221. The killer

otherwise known as the murderer, the arsehole, etc.

[jgraz]

239. Funny that "killer" wasn't the keyword -- the keyword was "illegal"

otherwise known a the mexican, the furriner, the wetback, etc, etc, etc

[underseasurveyor]

338. I love you

Yes Thank you...

Human Beings

[proud2BlibKansan]

339. Amen

Like only undocumented people drink and drive?

[Dutch]

341. I would have thought it was a given he was human

I haven't seen too many educated pandas running people down lately. Maybe you're right, we shouldn't "dehumanize" people with narrow descriptive terms. As long as I don't have to follow you in using nothing stronger than "humans" to refer to republicans.

[jgraz]

346. No, republicans don't count

If that dude was a Rethug, fuck him. ;)

Of course, Republicans aren't "illegals", they're just the ones hiring "illegals".

[tuvor]

260. So he'd have been drunk in Mexico and killed a fellow Mexican instead.

For that reason, I feel this has much more to do with driving drunk than it has to do with where one is driving drunk.

[Unvanguard]

312. Mexican lives are worth less than US lives.

Haven't you heard?

[Unvanguard]

311. And if we aborted all the black babies, the crime rate would go down.

:eyes:

[jbnow]

224. Well if it's your loved one

you think of all the "what ifs"

I'd certainly think "If only he'd been deported before the accident would not have happened."
Or if it was someone released from prison early I'd think "If only they hadn't let him out"
Or this or that or whatever. If only.

Citizenship or not does not make the driver. It's just one of those if onlys.

[uppityperson]

255. If only he hadn't been drinking and driving.

I don't think the status of his paperwork was a factor.

[Unvanguard]

315. Yeah, and if only he'd gotten hit by a car himself, or drowned in a river

or contracted some lethal disease....

Does that mean that we should go ahead and let people die for those reasons, simply because some of those we save might later end up killing people?

That argument is morally and logically bankrupt.

[jbnow]

363. I agree that argument is morally and logically bankrupt

but I didn't make that argument. Didn't come close.

[malaise]

225. Thanks Mike_c

Great response.

[enki23]

331. yeah, but if he'd been sent to a work camp when he was twelve, it wouldn't have happened

.

[Bicoastal]

2. Ruh-roh...

[Bicoastal]

3. delete

dupe

[Warren Stupidity]

4. thanks for spreading the hate.

I am sure it will be useful.

[ulysses]

5. no shit.

[Rage for Order]

8. How is it spreading hate?

If that person had not been in the country (and as an illegal alien should not have been), two people would be alive today who aren't. That's not hate, that's fact.

[noamnety]

14. You seriously don't see the problem here?

If you posted a similar story that made a point that a drunk driver was a (lesbian, black, native american, etc) would you understand then why it was spreading hate?

[Rage for Order]

22. No, I don't

If the lesbian or black was in the country illegally, then the point would be just as valid. However, if the lesbian or black was an American citizen then it would be spreading hate.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hang a left]

86. Guess what...

There are legal citizens in the US that are raping and pillaging our country.

Alcoholism, and DUIs, transcend legals and illegals.

But it is mostly US citizens that harm property and kill or maim while driving blind.

BTW did you hear about the US citizen that murdered 39 Mexican nationals by keeping them in a refrigerator truck with out any oxygen??

[brentspeak]

27. Holy cow

You don't get it, do you? What happened to Clark and his son last would never have occurred had the drunk driver been deported the first time.

[MissB]

65. c'mon. He could've just recrossed the border illegally.

Deportation doesn't necessarily keep 'em out.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. And it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been on that particular road,

either. It wouldn't have happened if they had passed through the area a minute earlier or a minute later. It wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been driving at all.

You can't pick out just one variable as the cause.

[geardaddy]

288. And it wouldn't have happened

If Clark's parents hadn't met or had sex or were infertile.

;)

[MGD]

105. I'm with you on this brentspeak

but, as you are certainly already aware of, you won't find a lot of support around here for deporting illegal immigrants.

[ProudDad]

117. Among Progressives

the word it "undocumented"

No One is Illegal...


On Edit:

I wonder why you right-wingers seem to find it hard to believe that there are so many "mexicans" in the land that, until an unprovoked, preemptive strike in 1848, was 1/3 of Mexico.

[MGD]

134. Your points are completely irrelevent to the argument.

[liberalhistorian]

184. People seem to be throwing a lot of irrelevant points

into the argument, don't they? The only relevant point is that this driver was here ILLEGALLY and that, because he chose to come here illegally instead of following the law the way legal immigrants do, two people are dead.

[uppityperson]

198. If he had legal paperwork, and drove drunk, and hit these people, they would still be dead.

How is his paperwork an issue? Because he didn't "following the law the way legal immigrants do, two people are dead"? Dang, guess he should've gotten his paperwork and they'd still be alive?

[brentspeak]

302. Exactly. And the usual suspects are accusing others of being "racists"

mostly to a) compensate for weak arguments; and b) to give themselves an artificial rush of phony self-righteousness. Some of them should have been banned for their behavior a long time ago.

[Unvanguard]

314. If he had come here legally, two people would still be dead.

If he had been born an American citizen, two people would STILL be dead.

THAT is the relevant point. His status as an illegal immigrant is completely irrelevant, and is only being thrown in as a demonization tactic by those who want to deny innocent people the right to live and work here because they happen to have been born elsewhere.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

227. I'm as progressive as they come BUT

I strongly disagree with you. The term for someone who came in the US without inspection by immigration authorities is an illegal immigrant. NO ifs, buts about this. I, on the other hand, am a LEGAL immigrant, because I was (1) inspected by an immigration authority and (2) had a visa and (3) now I have a green card which took 14 YEARS to get, standing patiently in line like everyone else should do because most people around the world who want or have to live in the U.S. do try to follow the laws of the U.S.

Moreover, while this accident could have happened regardless of immigration status, most states now require proof of a person's immigration status before they can issue driver's licenses. Either this person provided false documents (in itself fraud, which is after all against the law) or did not have a valid driver's license. Either we excuse a large class of people from the law, or we stop enforcing the law altogether. Now, of course, on can make the argument that immigration laws are unfair, but to be honest the U.S. isn't large enough to accommodate every single human being and that is a fact. We can either have open borders or we can enforce the laws on the books. The laws say that if you want to live in the U.S. you must meet certain criteria and go through certain steps that may take years to complete. The process is highly bureaucratic, but compared to immigration laws in other countries, including most of Europe, U.S. immigration laws are actually not that restrictive.

US law favors, of course, those with unusual skills or abilities, those with high education or specialized knowledge, those with very close U.S. citizen relatives and a few others.

[ProudDad]

114. YOU don't get it

The only cause and effect relationship is booze and a car...

The rest of your alleged "logical" extension is bullshit.

[liberalhistorian]

183. No, what's bullshit is that

people here are defending a man who was here ILLEGALLY and equating him with LEGAL immigrants who've actually followed the law to be here. The main cause and effect is that if he hadn't been here illegally, then Clark and his son would still be alive. Game, set, match, over and out.

[uppityperson]

199. Not defending him, simply saying problem was drunk driving, not paperwork.

If he hadn't been driving drunk, Clark and son would still be alive.

[Ghost in the Machine]

132. being lesbian, black or native american isn't a crime. Being in this Country

illegally is a crime. During the commission of one crime (entering our Country illegally), this criminal committed several more crimes.... drunk driving, reckless endangerment, vehicular homicide, and probably driving without a license and/or insurance. <<<--- The last one there I'm not quoting as fact, I don't remember seeing in the article whether he was licensed or not. Labeling people by race, religion, sexual preference or national origin is just wrong. Labeling a criminal as a criminal is just a fact.

[Unvanguard]

313. Then say that illegal immigrants are criminals.

Don't try to make them all out to be murderers.

(Not that "illegal" immigration is a crime worthy of the name.)

[Ghost in the Machine]

319. I'm not even putting down illegals... just pointing to a fact. I've WORKED

right alomg side of many illegals in the squash and bean fields of Homestead & Florida City, Fla., as well as construction sites from Miami to Atlanta and beyond. I've found the majority of them to be hard working human beings who only wanted to provide better for their families. I don't blame them for that one bit.

[Unvanguard]

320. Fair enough, then.

My apologies - these threads tend to make me a little aggressive.

[proud2BlibKansan]

340. Actually it is a civil offense

So it is no more a crime than driving over the speed limit.

[Ghost in the Machine]

343. So it is no more a crime than driving over the speed limit. ...

it's still a crime, no matter what spin on words you use. Civil offense, tort, what have you. At the end of the day, a "sanitation engineer" is still a garbage man and an "expert at dining utensil reclamation and santitation" is still a dishwasher.

A crime is a crime, no matter how big or small it is. Stealing a 2 cent piece of gum makes you just as much of a thief as stealing millions from an employer through embezzelment. You're still a thief. A criminal. That's just simple, unadulterated facts.

:hi:

How's things going out there at Camp Casey? I saw the pics you posted yesterday. It's awesome that you can be there. Wish I could be there too.

Ghost

[proud2BlibKansan]

344. I am rejecting the OP in this thread - strongly

Undocumented immigrants are not the only ones breaking the law (especially driving drunk) in the USA. This is just a reason to falsely ignite the flames of the anti-immigration crowd.

Things here are great! Getting ready to go hunt Easter eggs at dubya's church. Weather sucks though. I will post more pics later. :hi:

[brentspeak]

15. Thank you.

That's the point I'm making. The drunk driver already had a previous run-in with the law due to driving without a license. But short of deportation, what was there to prevent him from simply getting in a car and driving again? We have enough trouble trying to keep domestic drunk drivers from illegally getting behind the wheel; the lax illegal immigration laws guaranteed that a tragedy like last night's was bound to happen.

[hang a left]

90. Driving w/o a license

does not make a first time DUI, a multiple offender.

We live with illegal immigrants. They aren't leaving, nor does this admin want them too.

For the majority of these illegals, they are hard working and good members of communities.

I hate rants against poor Mexican peoples.

[brentspeak]

118. What do "poor Mexican peoples" have to do with this?

Lots of poor Mexican peoples who are in this country are here legally. In what way was Hector Velazquez-Nava a hard working and good member of the community? He was already in trouble with the law.

[hang a left]

For what brentspeak???

Driving without a license??

[hang a left]

149. btw...

How do you know he wasn't hard working. He might have even picked some of your produce.

[Critters2]

171. For less than minimum wage, thereby undercutting the wage levels

of workers here legally--citizen or otherwise.

[hang a left]

188. Want to pick lettuce for minimum wage?

[Critters2]

191. I wouldn't mind picking lettuce for the wage picking lettuce is worth.

If you really want lettuce, you ought to be prepared to pay a fair wage to have it picked. There is no "right" to cheap lettuce.

[hang a left]

197. Oh really... I don't think you are being truthful

You said, and I quote:

"For less than minimum wage, thereby undercutting the wage levels

of workers here legally--citizen or otherwise."

Then you said:

"I wouldn't mind picking lettuce for the wage picking lettuce is worth."

And I just got to ask you, what do you think lettuce is worth?

After that: Who is responsible for those poor people who live in the most disgusting conditions on those farms in Central California?? Who is responsible for their absurd working hours and pay??

Is it the illegal immigrant???

Or is it the system that supports the abuse??

Come on now, you really want to pick lettuce for the wage that picking lettuce is worth...right???

[Critters2]

201. Americans who want cheap lettuce are responsible for those disgusting conditions

I don't expect my food to be so cheap as to exploit the workers who pick it. Much of the year, I get my produce from a CSA, and yes, some times I go out there and plant or harvest along with the other members of the CSA. That lettuce is more expensive than the cheap stuff in the supermarket, but I know where it was raised and under what conditions--hell I did some of the work--and I know the workers were not exploited.

Americans should pay what their food is worth--not the lowest price the market will bear. It's that "everyday low price" mentality that brings us underpaid undocumented workers, and uninspected wheat gluten from China.

But the important thing is that your food is cheap. Picked by nearly slave laborers in conditions you claim not to approve of, but cheap. And that's all that matters.

[hang a left]

206. Blame NAFTA

Don't blame me for Chinese imports.

As far as lettuce goes, I buy from my local farmers market.

You are missing the point. IT IS THE SYSTEM that is responsible, not the immigrants or the people that support their local farms. The majority of Americans buy their lettuce at the supermarket.

[Critters2]

215. That is precisely my point

Americans have no idea where their lettuce comes from, nor do they care. They just want it cheap, and if that means undocumented workers pick their lettuce at less than minimum wage, that's fine with them.
Americans who want cheap food ARE the system!! And cheap labor feeds that system. Employers should pay a living wage, which would make the work more attractive, and cut down on the need for undocumented workers. But as long as the lowest price, not the best quality, is the main goal, we'll keep exploiting undocumented workers.

Workers should be paid what their work is worth. If that makes food more expensive, so be it.

[hang a left]

216. IMO that is not true.

Americans want to eat. The price of food in the past 5 years has gone up...jeez I don't know how much, but I know things are WAY more expensive.

People have to eat, and they are killing us there. My marketing bill is twice what is was 5 years ago. Is it the gas prices? That has to be a big part of it. It is also inflation that they tell us is not happening.

There are huge problems in this country between outsourcing and insourcing.

The poor immigrant that is slaving in the fields and factories is NOT the problem.

[noamnety]

138. Repealing prohibition

guaranteed that a tragedy like last night's was bound to happen. Where's your outrage about that?

[liberalhistorian]

189. Exactly, couldn't have put it better myself!

Sheesh, you'd think WE were the criminals here. Wonder what the reaction would be if the driver had been a republican?

[ProudDad]

202. Exactly the same

He should NOT have been drinking and driving.

That's the ONLY relevant thing to be taken from this tragedy.

Racist inuendo about "illegal" human beings doesn't help. (Funny how those "illegals" always seem be brown, not white like my wetback grandfather from Canada, curious...)

We could talk about what relevant and proactive things can we do to cut down on the number of people who drive drunk? I can think of a few since I've been in the substance recovery business for a few years.


But if you want to continue to beat on the racist drum and go through your contortions to justify that attitude, you have that right. :shrug:

It just doesn't meaningfully contribute to the discussion.

[buff2]

17. Anytime a person in DU criticizes an illegal

You get accused of being a "racist" or full of hate. It's really getting old.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. You and O'lielly both don't get it.

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=587405&mesg_id=587405

Watch the video. See if you can figure out why this might be xenophobic idiocy.

[buff2]

147. Sorry to disappoint you but I don't watch rightwingnut propaganda

:thumbsdown:

[cherokeeprogressive]

245. MADD doesn't get it either. They're xenophobic Mexican Haters!

These are the words of a native Mexican woman who now works for MADD...

Adelita Avila knows how critical it is for MADD to reach out to and educate the Hispanic community about preventing drunk driving and to provide assistance when tragedy strikes.

In 1993, Avila sat at the hospital bedside of her 4-year-old son, Craig Bennett Jr., as he lay in a coma because of a drunk driver. Avila is a native of Mexico, and her then second grade English reading skills and understanding level prevented her from comprehending what the doctors were telling her about her son's condition. Even more frustrating was that the language barrier prevented her from being able to fight for justice in the court system. And, she was not alone. Avila met other Hispanic families who were grappling with the aftermath of a drunk driving crash-many of whom understood less than she did.

What she soon learned about the impact of drunk driving on Hispanics was disheartening.

"A lot of the crashes were caused by their own family members," Avila recalls. "And these families were shocked that something like this could happen. But it was of no surprise to me."

"In Mexico, the culture is very much a drinking culture. After a hard day at work, it is normal to end the workday by drinking beer. At social events - celebrations, spending time with family, visiting friends - it is commonplace to drink, for the men in particular. And drinking alcohol starts early for male Hispanics because as early as age 12, drinking alcohol is seen as a "rite of passage" to becoming a man."

"Also, in Mexico, traffic laws are quite different and the use of seatbelt restraints is almost unheard of. So, when you combine the Hispanic drinking culture with the lack of education on drunk driving prevention, you end up with tragic consequences."





Here's the link that proves they are xenophobic haters of the oppressed... MADD

[liberalhistorian]

214. Yes, it is, indeed, old and tiresome. Especially

since race has nothing to do with it.

[Unvanguard]

321. When the actions of ONE are used to demonize and call for repressive tactics against

ALL of them, then the accusations of hatefulness, and possibly racism, are perfectly justified.

[EFerrari]

336. You bet. The bigotry is nauseating.

[MissB]

62. Never mind that deportation doesn't mean "don't come back"

to an illegal immigrant. Hey, the US might well mean that, but illegal immigrants don't really give a fuck, now do they?

The guy could've been deported and come back and done the same damned thing.

[Telly Savalas]

127. Yes. If he'd been deported he would have forsaken booze

and never driven drunk again.

[Madspirit]

174. No

An American drunk driver could have killed them and they would still be just as dead.
God I hate bigotry.
Lee

[LanternWaste]

235. One could just as easily

One could just as easily (and just as validly) say that if that person hadn't been drinking, two people would be alive today.

I see absolutely no relevancy to his immigration status-- would this have not happened if he were a legal immigrant? If we deport every illegal immigrant, will that prevent drunk driving?

Shouldn't we be arguing against drunk driving in this case rather than arguing what side of imaginary red and blue lines a person belongs on?

[femmedem]

262. There are a million hypotheticals about why the driver might not have been on the road.

The driver could have had an emergency that kept him home. Or he could have decided he felt like staying in. Or he could have been on vacation in another area.

Or for that matter, the Clarks could have decided to stay in. Or gone a different route. Or or or...there are a million what ifs.

The only "what if" that matters is that someone drove while intoxicated. That was the relevant crime. The crime of being in the U.S. illegally is of no more relevance than any of the other, legal what-ifs--except to people who are predisposed to indignation over illegal immigration.

[liberalhistorian]

180. And just how in the hell is it "spreading hate?"

We're not talking gender or race or sexual orientation here, we're talking about a CHOICE that was made to be here ILLEGALLY instead of following the law. There's a huge difference between LEGAL immigration and being here ILLEGALLY. Why is that so hard to understand? He should have been deported the first time he was discovered; Clark and his son would still be alive. It's incredible to me that anyone is actually defending him.

[Demobrat]

7. So if he's found guilty and sentenced here

and is then turned over for deportation proceedings, is there a chance he'd be sent back to Mexico and allowed to go free there? Or would he go to prison there for a crime committed here?

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

20. I don't think that's quite the way it works.

Here in Illinois my husband and I knew "of" an illegal Irish immigrant who was convicted of sexual assault. He served his sentence in Illinois and when he was released from prison, he was deported immediately.

[Demobrat]

116. That makes sense.

n/t

[hang a left]

94. You don't know about DUI laws in California do you??

The man will at least serve 12 years in prison. Six years for each death and that is if he is only charged vehicular manslaughter. That is WITHOUT priors. He isn't going for any deportation hearing anytime soon. That is unless he works for the CIA.

[Demobrat]

113. No I have no idea.

Fortunately.

[hang a left]

144. Well now, you "fortunately" know. nt

[ProudDad]

120. He will probably have to "serve"

his 24 to Life sentence for murder II here in California and then will be deported... Unless he has a lot of money.

Rich people don't do much time in the U.S. If he has a half million dollars he'd probably do about 8 years for manslaughter then be deported.

If he lives long enough, he WILL be deported.

And his victims will still be dead... Revenge and "punishment" doesn't bring people back from the dead.

As usual, this was a tragedy for everyone involved.

[Demobrat]

124. No they don't. But I doubt he's rich.

I figured what you said was the case, but the way the article was worded was ambiguous.

[stirlingsliver]

9. So What?

What possible difference does it make that the driver is an undocumented immigrant?

[Big Pappa]

24. He

had been ticketed twice before for dui. If the cops had been able to check his immigration status, he would not have been here to kill those people.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

231. How do you KNOW the police didn't check his immigration status?

Houston police ("cops" if you prefer) don't see enforcing immigration law as their first priority. So they don't ask crime victims & witnesses about their immigration status.

But if someone is charged with a serious crime, they check them out with the feds. You say he was "ticketed" with DUI twice? Guess I need to read the story. In Texas, you get more than a ticket for DUI.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

10. So the new plan is to deport all drunk drivers?

Perhaps we should deport all drivers, citizens or not, preemptively. Anyone could become a drunk driver, why risk it?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[devilgrrl]

70. Looks like Bruce Tinsley...

or is that Bush at his Kennebunkport best? :eyes:

[mitchtv]

76. welcome to DU

enjoy your stay

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. Wow. There's a PLAN to deport all drunk drivers? Wherever will they go?

Extrapolation gone wild...

[buff2]

11. It's bad enough they are here illegally

but killing innocent people is unacceptable.Yes,you are right. Clark and his son would still be alive and involved in making more movies if it wasn't for that drunken asswipe.A Christmas Story is one of my favorite movies.:cry:

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bling bling]

157. Wow. Your mean and ugly and snide comments are so...friggin smart.

You're infinitely intelligent one-liner assaults are a real pleasure to read and I feel like I'm learning so much. Thanks.

[hang a left]

168. welcome

:evilgrin:

[dorktv]

12. Almost all the DUIs I handle are Americans. And one of the state lege's members

recently was arrested for agg DUI which is a felony.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. Can we deport them too? nt.

[AlCzervik]

13. Hey the guy that killed 4 people in Sacramento last week is not only an american but he was a

republican appointee--go figure.

[stevedeshazer]

16. He should get the death penalty, right?

Let's kill him too. That'll make things right.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MissB]

69. I got your sarcasm.

Even your fucking sarcasm. :rofl:

[stevedeshazer]

92. I love you

Even though I hate you.

:hi:

Thanks for having a sense of humor. :)

[spoony]

222. He should never drive again, how about that?

[walldude]

18. Holy shit, Bob Clark is dead?

Missed this one, I think instead of worrying about whether the driver was an illegal or not I'll just turn on my sexy leg lamp and have one for old Bob...

[cherokeeprogressive]

80. I'd give anything for a lamp like that...

My fiance even says I can display it proudly if I find one. (i've never looked for one though. I just want one!)

[walldude]

96. Not cheap but here it is:

http://www.redriderleglamps.com/?gclid=CJ21y82QrYsCFQt0YAody2PqOQ

[Eurobabe]

211. That movie is a classic, our neighbors have a leg lamp

When she had her second baby, the signal for the neighbohood was the red light glowing in the front living room.

RIP Bob and son. Terrible, unnecessary tragedy.

[SharonAnn]

19. Most drunk drivers who kill people are men. Not all of them, but most of them.

[ProudDad]

125. Then according to the logic process of some folks here

All men should be deported...

Just to keep the rest of u...ooops, you ladies safe...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Would they still be alive if their ancestors hadn't come to America?

[walldude]

26. Man skip the DU debate on Illegals DUI watch O'Reilly Vs Geraldo

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x587405

That is some funny shit.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. Indeed. Thanks for the link. nt.

[pinniped]

220. Pretty good.

:thumbsup:

[MadMaddie]

28. Sigh....in the end whether the person was a citizen or not

Two more innocent people are dead because of a drunk drive.

[muntrv]

29. And I suppose if we strictly enforced our immigration laws, there would be

no one getting killed by drunk drivers.:crazy:

[Rage for Order]

33. Not quite

But there wouldn't be anyone killed by drunk drivers who aren't supposed to be on US roads in the first place.

[hang a left]

104. Do you complain when illegals are abused by coyotes and smugglers??

Or the corporations that hire them. Just curious.

[brentspeak]

34. I can only assume that logical fallacy was made tongue-in-cheek

And that you understood and agreed with my statement that had the drunk-driver been repatriated to Mexico previously, Mr. Clark and his son would still be alive.

[muntrv]

49. My point is that Americans commit crimes too. Would the outrage be as

great if they were killed by an American drunk driver?

[Rage for Order]

51. They most likely wouldn't be dead

Unless there happened to be a US citizen driving on the road who was drunk and crossed the center line.

[muntrv]

57. Would it make you feel better if the culprit were a US citizen? Whether it is

perpetrated by a US citizen or foreigner, it is still a homicide.

[Rage for Order]

64. We wouldn't be talking about it at all

The people wouldn't be dead. Of course it wouldn't be okay or better if they were killed by an American. However, the fact of the matter is that they were killed by someone who should not have been in the country to begin with. Had that person not been in the country, these 2 people would be alive today.

[karlrschneider]

97. Yeah, well if the Native Americans had enforced strict immigration laws back in the 1600s

all this would be hypothetical, wouldn't it?
:eyes:

[ProudDad]

130. Fighting Terrorism Since 1492

[hang a left]

108. Then direct you anger at the system.

Not the immigrant. He is here for a reason. Figure out why and then get really pissed.

[brentspeak]

53. Wrong question.

Wrong debate.

The only issue pertinent to this case is that vigilant enforcement of the immigration laws would have prevented last night's tragedy. Hector Velazquez-Nava would be back in Mexico, far away from being in a position to plow into the Clarks' car.

[Bill McBlueState]

81. hell, they might have driven off a cliff

You don't get to say what "would have" happened. All we know is what *did* happen. "If only thing A had happened, then thing B would have happened" is sloppy thinking.

[brentspeak]

87. Brilliant. Therefore, it really didn't matter too much that JFK was assassinated

Because, if Lee Harvey Oswald had been apprehended before he could pull the trigger, for all we know, JFK would have probably just have died of something else during the Dallas route -- sudden heart attack, epileptic fit, car accident...

(oh.my.gosh...)

[Bill McBlueState]

93. got me there.

Well, you win. Go on hating immigrants, if you have to.

[hang a left]

112. Back and to the left

back and to the left. back and to the left. back and to the left.

[hang a left]

111. Blame the system then brentspeak.

What if he had crashed into a pole and only killed himself?? Would we be having this discussion. I think not. I doubt it would even make any kind of news.

Bottom line is; The system encourages illegal immigration and supports it.

Your angry at the wrong people.

[hang a left]

106. And if Mr. Clark and his son had never been born they wouldn't be dead right now.

Furthermore, if they lived in a different state, or if they left a little earlier et al...

It is called fate, I think.

Just as the individual that committed the crime. It will be his fate to live in prison for a long time.

[ProudDad]

126. You've made an illogical statement

that displays an inability to discern cause and effect.

So the answer is NO, we don't agree with the statement:

"had the drunk-driver been repatriated to Mexico previously, Mr. Clark and his son would still be alive."

[AzDar]

37. Well, there'd be two less that we know of..... n/t

[Colobo]

32. The problem is not about the guy being illegal

The problem is drunk driving.

[ulysses]

36. hello - thank you!

[brentspeak]

42. This particular drunk driver would not have been a problem last night

had he not been in the U.S. last night.

[Colobo]

67. He wouldn't have been a problem either

had he not been drunk, don't you think?

[uppityperson]

129. He would not have been a problem if here weren't driving drunk.

http://www.madd.org/stats/11088
California 2005

4,329 Total traffic deaths
1,719 Alcohol Related Deaths
40% Alcohol related

The problem in any drunk driver accident/death is the alcohol. Of course one could say "the problem was that the driver was in that spot" but the bigger problem, the one that can be dealt with, is the drinking.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. Drunk driver who killed was illegally drinking and driving!

If only this creep was arrested this never would have happened!

[tkmorris]

39. A fact which is completely irrelevant nt

[Rage for Order]

43. Try telling that to the widow

"Well, we're sorry Mrs. Clark, but first we did nothing to keep individuals from entering the country illegally, then when this person did get into the country illegally he killed your husband and son. Our bad". Somehow I don't think that'd go over too well.

[slutticus]

44. Ummm...

He killed those people because he was drunk driving...not because he was illegally in this country.

Are you implying that deporting all illegals will solve all drunk driving problems?

If so, you are not so smart. If not, I will assume you hate Mexicans.

Not a good situation to be in.

[Warren Stupidity]

46. Fat drunk and stupid is no way to go through life,son. nt.

[hang a left]

115. How bout just stupid??

Is that OK?

[brentspeak]

47. I'll butt in here to say

'Wow, your post is one big logical fallacy'.

Who said that a) the drunk driver killed those people because he was here illegally?
b) deporting all illegals will solve all drunk driving problems?
c) they hate Mexicans?

[Rage for Order]

48. LOL You are funny

Obviously I'm implying that if only we could deport all illegal aliens then there would be no drunken driving in America! You are exactly right!

I am implying that if there are no illegal aliens in the US, then no illegal aliens will drive drunk in the US, which would definitely save hundreds, probably thousands, of lives based on the current estimate of 12 million illegals in the US at present. If you estimate that 5% of them will drive drunk, that's 600,000 drunk drivers that shouldn't be on America's roads. Of course, there shouldn't be ANY drink drivers on our roads, but that would be 600,000 more than we would have without illegal aliens.

But then, what do I know? You've assumed that I hate Mexicans. LOL

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MGD]

119. I think he's making the case that illegal aliens aren't all hard working, law abiding,

society benefitting sterotypes that certain people wish to make them out to be. And as far as hating Mexicans goes, I'll bet Mr. Speak would be just as pissed off if we were neighbors with Germany and millions of Germans were coming across our border and causing the kind of problems that the Mexican illegals have caused. I know I would be. Germans, like Mexicans, are fine people, when they aren't invading other people's countries.

[Warren Stupidity]

45. Oh so you have personal knowledge that Mrs. Clark

is upset about the immigration status of the driver?

[Rage for Order]

50. It's akin to...

A felon who is released from prison due to overcrowding who then goes out and murders someone. People naturally ask, "Why was he back on the streets in the first place? He was a dangerous criminal!" The authorities then say that due to overcrowding they couldn't house him anymore, and the victims feel even more victimized because it's a crime that did not have to occur. Kind of like the gov't telling us that the border is too overcrowded to enforce, so we just have to live with a million people per year entering the country illegally and all of the consequences that come along with the influx.

[hang a left]

123. Name someone that has been released from ANY prison DUE to overcrowding

that then goes out and murders someone. I need a friggin link.

[Rage for Order]

310. Well, there's Willie Horton

The criminal that doomed Michael Dukakis' campaign after he was let out on furlough for the weekend and killed someone. Find your own link for that one. Granted, he wasn't let out for overcrowding, just for a 3 day weekend. But there's one for you.

[Bill McBlueState]

52. how do you know they'd still be alive?

They might have gotten killed by a different drunk driver. You don't know what would have happened.

You're just trying to fan anti-immigrant flames.

[brentspeak]

63. Oh, yeah. Right.

Logically, had Hector Velazquez-Nava not plowed into the Clarks' car first, a different drunk driver would have eventually have shown up and done the deed himself. I guess it must have been predestined that the Clarks were to have been hit by a drunk driver last night.

(holy cow...)

:eyes:

[Bill McBlueState]

75. it seems improbable

But the point is, the certainty with which you presented your conclusion was misplaced. Anything could have happened.

You're just trying to fan anti-immigrant flames.

[WindRavenX]

54. who knew that being an illegal made you drink and drive!!! WOW!!

:eyes:

[brentspeak]

56. I don't know who knew that. Do you know who SAID that?

[WindRavenX]

60. The logic implied by the OP said exactly just that

Implying that if the man had been detained because of his residency status has nothing to do with the crime.

[brentspeak]

66. Really? So if the man had been detained because of his residency status...

...would he have been on the road last night driving drunk?

Can a person be in two places at once?

[WindRavenX]

68. Would that have prevented other American citizens from driving drunk on the road that night?

NT

[brentspeak]

Uh, what does that have to do with my question?

[WindRavenX]

85. Easy

You're assuming that if he was prevented from even being in the country that the victim would be alive. You don't know that, because there are lots of (legal) drunk drivers on the road. Or he could have died in some other way. It's simply illogical to assume that he would still be alive if the driver was detained. His residency status has no bearing on the fact that he was a drunk driver.

[brentspeak]

88. ....

:freak:

[WindRavenX]

163. LOL

It's called logic-- crazy stuff, that logic.

[hang a left]

136. The argument that you keep repeating has a very small amount of valididty.

Yeah OK place and time and so forth.

However, what about the US citizen that kills the illegal immigrant?? Whether by a crime or by accident as in DUI.

Those stories just don't make the national news.

Bottom line us legals and illegals live together.

[LeftishBrit]

240. So logically EVERYONE of driving age should be detained..

so that they can't be out on the roads drunk.

[Tom Joad]

55. O'Rielly's point exactly. But immigration did not kill these people, drunk driving did.

Rich white people drive drunk and kill people too. Or they don't even have to be drunk... Remember South Dakota Attorney General Bill Janklow?

God, what a idiotic way to argue about immigration.

[Cha]

59. That's fucked

for sure.

[Madspirit]

61. Xenophobia is really ugly

It was the driving drunk not the Illegal Immigrant part that killed these people. We full-blown citizens do it ALL THE FUCKING TIME. Jeez, what a lousy backasswards way to sneak in some racism.
Lee

[MGD]

122. What a lousy disingenuous way to play the race card in an argument that has nothing to do with race.

[ProudDad]

133. The OP is the one

who played the race card.

We're responding to his racist assumption...

[MGD]

141. Negative. The OP never made it a racial issue. You did.

As I have said repeatedly, 90% of the people who gripe about illegal immigration would be just as pissed off if we were neighbors with Germany and the Germans were violating our laws to a similar extent. This "inconvenient truth" is conveniently ignored by people like you who insist on perpetuating the meme that anyone who opposes illegal immigration is a bigot.

[LeftishBrit]

244. You're right about one thing...

Anti-immigrant prejudice is not limited to any one type or nationality of immigrants. In the UK, as I said in another post, there is very little prejudice against specifically Mexican immigrants, because very few immigrants are Mexican. There is, however, PLENTY of prejudice against immigrants from Asian countries, African countries, the Caribbaean, and, most recently, Eastern Europe. Xenophobia is xenophobia, and will be targeted against those who are visible immigrants, whatever country they are from. If people are of a different colour, this fuels the bigotry; but sometimes people are prejudiced against immigrants who are of the same colour. Those who resent Mexicans now, would just as easily resent another ethnic group under slightly different circumstances.

And yes, there are genuine problems with illegal immigration, in Britain and no doubt the USA. But implying that an entire group is guilty-by-association, because of the criminal actions of one person, is at best faulty logic.

[MGD]

268. I'm right about most things actually.

"And yes, there are genuine problems with illegal immigration, in Britain and no doubt the USA. But implying that an entire group is guilty-by-association, because of the criminal actions of one person, is at best faulty logic."
Ahh, but we have already established that it isn't just "one person". 10,000 members of MS-13, 30,000 members of the Mexican Mafia, 100,000 members of the latin kings (or more), the unknown numbers of La nuestra familia, the Texas Syndicate, the Mexikanemi, too many local street gangs to count, etc, etc... While I've no doubt that there are plenty of hard working law abiding immigrants, the fact remains, there are a hell of a lot of Hispanic thugs in America perpetrating acts of violence. Do you know what initiation right is shared by all of them? It's called "blood in, blood out". That means you have to shed someone's blood to get in (frequently murder but also aggravated assault) and the only way out is through the shedding of your own blood (either via death or severe beating). You call it Xenophobia but I don't see it as an irrrational or unjustifed fear at all. Our cities have been taken over and I want them taken back one way or the other. I certainly won't support any policy that cedes more power to these thugs.
edit typos

[Madspirit]

172. Of fucking course they did

They brought it up as an illegal immigration issue. Even if I truly believed someone could bring Illegal immigration up in a negative way without a hint of bigotry, which I don't, what the hell does someone's immigration status have to do with drunk driving. Americans drink and drive and kill all the fucking time.
...and I stand by the xenophobia because they did choose to make the immigration issue an issue when it has nothing to do with the deaths caused by drunken driving.
Lee

[mrreowwr_kittty]

274. "Play the race card"

Right up there with "PC" in the arsenal of disingenuous bullshit used by racists.

[MGD]

292. Right, that's the card you lay down when all else has failed

as in the case of those trying to defend illegal immigration.

[Unvanguard]

322. The people who really play "the race card"

are the racists - implicitly or explicitly, subtly or blatantly.

Not those who call them on it.

[MGD]

342. And by that, you mean to imply that anyone who opposes illegal immigration is a racist

and, as such, you are the one laying down the race card.

[Unvanguard]

347. If all people opposed to illegal immigration were racist

then their racist opposition would constitute "laying down the race card" far more than the anti-racism of their opponents.

Naturally, of course, racists love to use phrases like "laying down the race card", because they don't actually want to TALK about race - not in clear terms, anyway. They'd rather the racism remain veiled.

Similarly, racist affirmative action opponents (and no, that does not mean that ALL opponents of affirmative action are racist) glorify their version of a "color-blind" society - by which they mean a society that is blind to White privilege and Black and Latino deprivation.

I'd agree that not ALL opponents of illegal immigration are racists - but denying that racism plays a very big part in the degree and character of the opposition to illegal immigration is absurd.

[MGD]

355. I disgaree to a large extent

The idea that those who are opposed to illegal immigration are racists or, to be more specific, base their opposition along purely racist lines is little more than a popular liberal memetic. Though many of these individuals may in fact be racist to varying extents, this does not ata ll indicate a racist etiology to their opposition to illegal immigration. I believe that it is your position that is absurd. There are plenty of reasons to oppose illegal immigration other than racism and bigotry. As I have said numerous times now, if the illegal immigrants were WASPs, the feelings would be exactly the same. Race has little to do with it.

[Cleita]

71. Yes, how awful. However, there was a bill to allow these

undocumented people to get a legitimate driver's license in California, which would have required them to pass tests and have insurance. The bill was killed by factions who hate the fact that these people do live amongst us and drive. Allowing them to have legal licenses would have reduced these incidents because those who could meet the requirements of the system would have cut down on those who couldn't. In other words those who could drive legally, would have made an effort to keep the other guys that couldn't off the street. However, I find that the entitled born Americans, as usual, will not do what the sane and practical thing is to do for the good of all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. Immigration should be strictly controlled...

... but this is a fucked-up way in which to make that point.

[Blue_In_AK]

74. Drunk drivers,

Americans and non, kill people all the time. My own mother was killed by a drunk driver, who rather ironically was killed by a drunk driver himself the following year. Nobody was a foreign national. Stop hyperventilating.

[brentspeak]

79. There's a cognitive problem occuring here

I'm almost embarrassed with the way the obvious point has flown over some people's heads here. Hint: The point is not being made that "illegal immigrants = drunk drivers" or that "only illegal immigrants drive drunk".

[Blue_In_AK]

89. No, I understand your point...

...and being very literal, you are correct, but my point is that "stuff happens," whether people are legal, illegal or whatever. And if those two people hadn't been killed by the immigrant, they could have just as easily have been killed by someone else driving drunk. It's the emphasis on the fact that the driver was an illegal immigrant that's the issue with me.

[brentspeak]

102. The fact that the drunk driver could have been deported earlier

or otherwise prevented from entering the country in the first place is the pertinent issue. It's a nonsensical argument to maintain that an equal probability existed for the Clarks to have been killed by a different drunk driver last night.

[Madspirit]

185. Self Edit

Moved down....

[NashVegas]

303. All the Logic in the World Ain't Gonna Bring Clark Back

What I see going on in this thread is eerily similar to the attitudes expressed over the Church's scandal with pedophile priests.

"If they'd just kick out the queers, this wouldn't be such a problem."
"If they'd just allow openly homosexual priests, this wouldn't be such a problem."
"If they'd just allow priests to marry, this wouldn't be such a problem."

People take a tragedy and exploit it to push their own beliefs/agenda. And none of it is going to change a single thing.

[ComerPerro]

91. nice. A lot of DUers don't use your bigoted reasoning, so you assume your high minded postings

are just "over their heads". Like they are somehow too stupid to understand the greatness of your point.

Maybe BillO shoulda had you on instead of Geraldo. Then he could have had the circle-jerk he was hoping for

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ComerPerro]

107. God, you're right. I am such a moron. Please teach me to be like you

[Horse with no Name]

78. Wow I am soooo relieved to know that there aren't any Americans

that drive drunk.

[Colobo]

82. Of course they don't

Only illegals do that.

[Cleita]

84. Yes, I never see them on the road coming out of saloons

either. LOL!

I sort of remember pictures on the news of Nick Nolte and Mel Gibson, etc. I guess they were lucky and didn't get into accidents. Or, is it possible in their neighborhoods that cops didn't have much to do other than nail DUI's before they got into accidents?

[ismnotwasm]

83. I find the "Drunk Driving" part

FAR more offensive, given how many people drive drunk, and how many people are affected by drunk drivers that the fact this individual was not a citizen.

Here ya go, join up and DO something about drunk drivers.
http://www.madd.org/

[1932]

98. I wonder how many times it goes the other direction. Drunk rich guy hits and runs

leaving a dead immigrant behind...and nobody cares.

Next time I see that happen, I'll look for your DU post telling us that we need to deport all these illegal immigrants for their own good, so they don't get killed by drunk citizens of the US of A.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

101. Brentspeak, here's something you're not understanding:

The drunk driver being illegal is only one variable in the whole sad situation.

No accident would have occurred if the drunk driver had died the day before.

No accident would have occurred if the drunk driver had never been born.

Clark and his son would be alive if the drunk driver had stayed at the bar a bit longer.

Clark and his son would be alive if they had stayed home that night.

Clark and his son would be alive if they had taken a different route.

Clark and his son would be alive if they had been driving faster or slower and not been at the same spot as the drunk driver.

You seem to be saying, "We should deport all the illegal immigrants because they drink and drive and kill people."

You're saying that all people of a certain group are undesirable. That's called prejudice. Oh, and prejudiced people tend not to recognize that they're prejudiced. They see themselves as "not bound by political correctness."

[ProudDad]

109. Way to go, brentspeak

Way to spread bill o'liely's talking points for him...

http://www.crooksandliars.com/

He was a DRUNK DRIVER -- end of story...

Don't do the right-wing shits' work for them.

[Swamp Rat]

110. If that drunk redneck stayed for one more beer, he would have hit someone else.

If that hijo de puta drunk redneck had taken another highway that night, I would not have intense back pain for the rest of my life.

[uppityperson]

135. Exactly. Problem was drinking.

The "illegal" argument is as stupid as saying "if the victim hadn't been there, they wouldn't have gotten hit". A thing that may be true but has little to do with the situation or problem. Sorry about your back, sounds like a real pain in the back.

[Telly Savalas]

143. But if he'd been deported, he would have done his drunk driving in Mexico

and evidentially Mexicans have less worth than U.S. citizens. At least that's the impression I get from a number of posters in this thread.

[uppityperson]

146. That is a good take on it.

[brentspeak]

154. Why is the "illegal" argument "stupid"?

Hector Velazquez-Nava was here illegally. He had already been caught driving -- illegally. It therefore should come as no surprise that he would do something else again -- illegally. The laws are on the books to protect the public. But if the laws aren't enforced, then the public can't be protected from the law-breakers. Had the law been properly followed, Velazquez-Nava wouldn't have been anywhere near the Clarks last night.

[uppityperson]

196. I'm done with you. Refer you to post #207

Your mind is made up so why bother the "discussion". Goodbye.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=587216&mesg_id=589115

[MGD]

128. The popular meme being spread from various sources asserts that the illegal Mexican immigrant is

hard working, law abiding, and beneficial to society for a number of reasons. Your point clearly undermines that meme. Is it any wonder it has met so much resistance from the defenders of the meme?

[ProudDad]

137. Most are hard working and law abiding

and a few aren't.

Just like everyone else...

That's why you get resistance for racist assumptions.

[Telly Savalas]

145. But if this one guy was a drunken idiot, then all Mexicans must be scum.

That's what the guy is arguing. It's not racist though.

[MGD]

150. I would be just as opposed to millions of Germans invading my country

How am I racist?

[Telly Savalas]

152. By trying to characterize and entire group based on the actions

of a single individual. And you can backpedal all you fucking want by playing semantics, but that's what you're doing.

[MGD]

159. I'm not characterizing anybody. I only pointed out that stories like this undermine a popular meme

It is the defenders of the meme that are characterizing an entire group. And how exactly am I back peddling? You called me racist because I have made it clear that I am opposed to illegal immigrants. I pointed out that I would be just as pissed off if the illegal immigrants were white like me. Is it back peddling because it negates another popular meme, that everyone who opposes illegal immigration is a racist?

[Madspirit]

190. Quit using "meme"

Have you ever heard of over-using a word to the point it becomes trite and annoying? We're all impressed, highly, now find another word.
Lee

[Name removed]

204. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

155. s/d

[Telly Savalas]

140. "Your point clearly undermines that meme."

So this one individual is representative of the entire group? That's some really interesting reasoning.

[MGD]

148. So, all illegal Mexican immigrants are hard working, law abiding, benefits to socety then?

[Telly Savalas]

151. Most of them are.

A few of them are fucking assholes like this guy. That was well established long before this idiotic thread.

[MGD]

156. Hard working, law abiding benefits to society like the 10,000 + members of MS-13

who have used our border non-security to infilltrate our country and establish themselves as crime lords throughout over half of our states?

[EFerrari]

167. I forget. How many illegal immigrants are there estimated to be here?

[MGD]

176. How about we add the 30,000 + members of the Mexican mafia to the 10,000+ members of MS-13 then

and, as long as were doing math, let's add the 100,000+ members of the Almighty Latin Kings.

[EFerrari]

200. You're right. We're SCREWN! THE MEXICANS ARE HERE!

[MGD]

205. You said it, not me.

[High Plains]

259. And how many of them are US citizens?

Don't forget that we have 30 million or so Hispanic US citizens.

[MGD]

272. Who knows? How many of them were born here? Who knows? How many of them are children of immigrants

legal or otherwise? Who knows? What do they all have in common? We all know but, at the same time, who can really say?

[Unvanguard]

349. Yeah, urban poverty and racism can do that.

It has nothing to do with immigration status or nationality.

[LeftishBrit]

241. So all American- born (or British-born) people are hard-working, law-abiding, benefits to society?

No group of people is totally law-abiding.

If there is any 'demographic' of people most likely to commit crimes, it is based on age and gender, not nationality. From the point of view of catching potential criminals, it would make more sense to target all young men between about 15 and 25, than to target immigrants.

ETA: And by the way, in Britain we have very few Mexican immigrants, but our tabloids say EXACTLY the same sorts of things about Asian, African and East Europaean immigrants as your right-wing media say about Mexicans. Anti-immigrant campaigns seem to be a universal right-wing issue, regardless of the nationality of the immigrants.

[MGD]

266. FYI

just because someone is universally right doesn't mean they're universally wrong and, for that matter, being universally left doesn't make you universally right although both left and right will universally agree that they are, in fact, universally right in every thing they assert. With that out of the way, I will tell you that I am neither left nor right, I am politically, philosophically, and theologically neutral and, as such, I am uniquely qualified to call bullshit on both sides which I frequently do. Having said that, regarding the argument you're making about prison demographics, I'm calling bullshit. It may be truthful to say that young males are more likely to be incarcerated than any other demographic; however, it is more truthful to say that young hispanic males are even more likely to be incarcerated; therefore, it is not disingenuous to claim that the U.S. Hispanic population contributes disproportionately to the U.S. prison population and; furthermore, before someone cries foul regarding our justice system, I would remind you that in the United States, every convicted felon had a right to a court appointed attorney and a trial before a jury of his peers.

[Lost-in-FL]

337. ..

http://www.ailf.org/ipc/special_report/sr_022107.pdf

[slutticus]

353. That's mean. Fighting ignorance with fact is unfair.

:)

[slutticus]

352. Bill-O? Is that you?

I thought I recognized you!


"...I am neither left nor right, I am politically, philosophically, and theologically neutral and, as such, I am uniquely qualified to call bullshit on both sides"


:rofl:

Uniquely Qualified

I love it!

[5X]

131. Some threads I am thankful for, without them I couldn't always tell the bigots

from the rest of the crowd.

[ProudDad]

139. Hear, Hear!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[buff2]

142. My husband is white

I sometimes criticize him. That must make me a bigot. :eyes:

[5X]

160. My post wasn't directly referencing you, but you have directly implicated

yourself now.

Thanks.

[brentspeak]

194. "Implicated"?

[buff2]

267. How?

:wtf:

[slutticus]

351. Bingo. This thread should stay up as long as possible.

[uppityperson]

153. Problem is NOT that he was in a particular place but that he was drunk.

It doesn't matter where he was except to the people/friends/family/etc who were in the same place at the same time. It doesn't matter if he was on the N.American continent or Australia. What matters is that he was driving drunk. THAT is what matters.

If he were deported, he would probably have been driving drunk in Mexico and occupied the same space as someone else and their son and THOSE people would be dead. Is your point that USAnian lives are worth more than Mexican lives? If your point is not that Mexicans drive drunk and kill people, that is the only other thing I can make of your posting and continuing to support this post. Shame on you.

[brentspeak]

161. That's right -- Bob Clark and son died so that Mexican people wouldn't

It's a damn good thing -- don't you think? -- that Hector Velazquez-Nava smashed into the Clarks' car. Because if he didn't, it would have been Mexicans who got killed instead.

(uh...)

[uppityperson]

195. No. I think it is a shame that anyone died from the problem of drunk driving.

That is what I think.

[KingFlorez]

158. What does being an illegal immigrant have to do with anything?

He was driving drunk, no matter what you are that makes you wrong, the fact he's an illegal means nothing. It's absolute nonsense to even bring that into it. There are thousands of citizens that drive drunk and kill people.

[brentspeak]

162. AP headline: "Driver In Filmmaker's Death Is Illegal Immigrant"

http://cbs2.com/local/local_story_095224252.html

[ConsAreLiars]

164. Open expressions of ignorance and irrational bigotry probably should be posted on

some other board. There are some that love wallowing in that sort of mindless crap, and you'd probably be welcomed.

[brentspeak]

165. "Ignorance and irrational bigotry"....

And what does that have to do with my post? I think you responded to the wrong thread.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

192. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

207. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shadowknows69]

169. When did this happen

Bob Clark OMG, Christmas Story is the best movie ever?

[BurtWorm]

173. How many life-savers have been deported as soon as law enforcement became aware of them?

(You're making a nonsequitur.)

[ProudDad]

203. Beautiful point

How many people lost their lives because some 'illegal' who would have saved them was deported.

Makes as much sense as the OP...


The MSM is racist. Not surprising. The U.S.A. is a racist society...

[nomatrix]

175. Did you ever think you would find so much support for

a killer, ONLY because of his nationality? With no other information about this person, here comes the put downs and name calling.


You wouldn't find this much support if it was an insured, licensed, U.S. citizen who drove his SUV, drunk, down the wrong side of the highway and slammed into a car killing 2 people.

I didn't say what nationality that U.S. citizen was, because it doesn't matter.

If these victims had survived, they would be paying with their insurances and out of their pockets for all the damages they suffered because of this uninsured, unlicensed drunk driving down the wrong side of the road.

How do I know this? It happened to my family, in my car, in broad daylight, on the Pacific Coast Highway, when a car turned in front of us and stopped, on a 60 MPH road. We slammed into them sending everyone in our car to the hospital by ambulance. No one in their vehicle was injured because they were all drunk. No license, insurance, green card-nothing. 25 years later, we still suffer from the injuries from that day. The cost was unbelievable, but we were alive.

What really pisses me off....We pay for insurance, get licenses, don't drink and drive, because it's the law. I would never champion someone who was my nationality who didn't respect the law, and got someone killed because of it. What happened to that?

I grew up in neighborhoods of families from other nations. If one kid or family started breaking the law, the mothers would set them straight about having some pride in themselves. That was important; that you represent your country and them too. When you break the law you make all of them look bad when they were working so hard to be a part of this country, and keep their heritage alive with the fellowship of other countrymen.

I don't get this kind of loyalty. This isn't about racism, bigotry, whatever label you want to put on it.

This is about lawless gang mentality. Have you no decency?

[GRLMGC]

177. Oh please

Nobody is supporting a killer. Most people responding are horrified by the fact that he was a drunk driver. The OP made his legal status an issue. People are responding to that. That is not relevant to this tragedy. He deserves to be severely punished for being a drunk driver. Any drunk driver, regardless of legal status or nationality, deserves to be punished for that. That's the biggest issue here.

[BurtWorm]

179. I object to the nonsequitur, linking his being an illegal alien to his drunk driving

It's what Geraldo rightly called out Bill O'Reilly on. Nationality is beside the point. To bring it up opens oneself up to charges of racism.

[walldude]

182. Hehe.. Siding with O'Reilly or Geraldo

A punch in the nose or a punch in the nuts.. I hate agreeing with Geraldo..

[KingFlorez]

181. No one is supporting the driver

The point that is being made, is that being an illegal immigrant wasn't the cause of the accident, drunk driving was. Most posters have made that perfectly clear.

[Catherine Vincent]

186. ...

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

232. No, we have no decency.

:eyes:

[nomatrix]

263. Strange how he could afford this vehicle?.

He was driving a 2007 GMC Yukon registered to him without a license or insurance. ($35,000-45,000 depending on the model)

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-crash6apr06,0,6699610.story?coll=la-home-headlines

"Velazquez-Nava had a blood alcohol level of 0.24 percent, three times the 0.08 legal limit for driving. There was no evidence the Clarks had been drinking, Fischer said.

Velazquez-Nava does not have documentation of legal U.S. residency, nor does he appear to have ever had a U.S. driver's license, Fischer said. The Yukon was registered to Velazquez-Nava, who claimed to have insurance, but police haven't been able to verify any, Fischer said.

Velazquez-Nava lives in Los Angeles, but little other information was available. He told authorities that he was on his way from Hollywood to West Covina when he crashed, although he was traveling in the opposite direction. Fischer said Velazquez-Nava was probably lost."


Now I get it. If you get paid in cash, don't have to pay those stinking taxes and fees associated with being a citizen, you can afford to drive whatever you want. Now I see why you all are behind the undocumented free ride.

Thanks for an honest answer Bluebear.

[Bluebear]

291. Oh yeah you got me.

Point is, he could be Polish or Samoan. He was a drunk driving murderer, nobody is "supporting" that.

[LeftishBrit]

238. No one is supporting him FFS!!!

I doubt that ANYONE here has much sympathy with drunk drivers who kill people.I think he deserves a long prison sentence. I just don't think that all immigrants, or even all illegal ones, need to somehow share the blame. His immigration status should be irrelevant, either in his favour or against him.

[Madspirit]

187. GUESS WHAT!!!!! Whoohoohoo

I know an illegal immigrant who pulled four legal citizens out of a house fire and saved their lives. Good damned thing they were here. Those four folks wouldn't be alive if that Illegal had been deported. Whew.

Hey, we can use the same backasswards "logic" the bigots can use.
Lee

[cgrindley]

193. The immigration status has nothing to do with it

but yeah, after his sentence is served, deport him. As far as I'm concerned, a felony conviction is one of the only legitimate reasons to deny free and easy immigration.

[jgraz]

209. My girlfriend's parents were killed by a drunk driver this summer

Too bad he was a white, middle-class US citizen. We have nobody to hate.

[Quantess]

212. do you really mean it sincerely?

Or are you just making S**t up as usual?

[jgraz]

213. delete

[Quantess]

217. Please accept my apologies.

I'm a cynic by nature.
I'm truly sorry for your loss. That's so terrible.
Sorry, I don't really know you, I just recognize your name. I hadn't heard/read about your tragedy.

[jgraz]

219. accepted

Whaddya say we just self-delete the last couple posts and forget about it?

[Quantess]

210. I hope he gets his ass deported! Additional: Never come back!

Seriously. Why is this even a topic of contention on DU?

[opihimoimoi]

218. I happen to feel he should serve time...like about 5 years...then deport

[pinniped]

223. A few miles from here, some drunk asshole killed his passenger last night.

Too bad he wasn't illegal, she would still be alive today.

[wicket]

226. Bob Clark is dead????

Oh god :cry: :cry:

May he and his son rest in peace. Thoughts and prayers for their family :cry:

[skypilot]

243. I just saw the headline.

"Black Christmas" is one of my favorite horror movies ever. No one has done the "the KILLER is IN THE HOUSE!" thing better. So sad.

[rug]

228. Somebody should investigate if he was drinking imported booze.

[Bluebear]

229. Yes, if we get all those damn illegals deported that will end the drunk driving crisis

Last night a guy with a French Canadian name was involved in a drunk driving incident here. If his great grandparents hadn't come to the States, this never would have happened. Or if the other driver hadn't stopped to buy a soda. It's called fate.

[rug]

230. And I bet he was driving a foreign car.

[RebelOne]

233. I have had 2 people in my family killed by drunken drivers.

My stepfather was killed by a drunken off-duty policeman and he received no jail sentence at all. He wasn't even kicked off the police force.

My daughter's husband was killed by a hit-and-run drunken driver. Fortunately, he was apprehended. But the only sentence he received was weekends in jail for 6 months. He was allowed to be free during the week to go to work.

And, of course, both these cases happened in Florida.

[lectrobyte]

234. and Lou Dobbs just achieved liftoff without Viagra for the first time in many years!

[LeftishBrit]

236. I don't see what his being an illegal immigrant has to do with his being a drunk driver

Except perhaps inasmuch as there is now the option of deporting him post-conviction, whereas other drunk drivers (perhaps unfortunately!) can't be deported.

But this idea that this shows how eeeeeevil illegal immigrants are, because if he hadn't entered the country illegally he wouldn't have been drink-driving, just sounds like one of the media's excuses for immigrant-bashing (it's certainly THE favourite hobby of the British right-wing tabloids). Yes, this particular person possibly wouldn't have; but there are LOADS of people who drive when drunk, and it has nothing to do with immigration, legal or illegal. There are a number of things that really have an effect on reducing drunk driving and road accidents: more random breath tests for drivers; stricter penalties, especially in terms of driving bans, for people caught driving when over the limit; raising the age at which young people can have a driver's licence; reducing the legal limit of blood alcohol for drivers; etc. But all of these would involve some inconvenience and (arguably) restriction of freedom for significant numbers of drivers, and therefore might not be accepted by voters. Another solution is, of course, to increase availability of public transport, so that people are less tempted to drive when unfit. But this would cost the taxpayer money, so again it might not be accepted.

But it just seems easier to 'scapegoat' a particular group of people than to REALLY address a serious problem: in this case, that of drunk driving.

I am very sorry to hear about the death of Bob Clark and his son; and furious with the man who did it: furious because he was, like too many others, a drunk driver who didn't care enough about people's lives. His immigration status has nothing to do with it.

[brentspeak]

264. The problem in this case isn't illegal immigration, nor is it drunk driving;

the problem was Hector Velazquez-Nava. Hector Velazquez-Nava would never had been a problem for Bob Clark and his son had the immigration laws been properly enforced the first time around. We, as citizens, have a right to demand that the laws on the books be enforced. Velazquez-Nava had previously demonstrated a disregard for the laws of our land: if the fact that he entered this country illegally wasn't enough to demonstrate this, his subsequent run-ins with the law confirmed it. Bob Clark and his son (and the two girls in Virginia Beach) were left unprotected and are now dead -- thanks to the nation's criminal unwillingness to enforce the very laws it's supposed to enforce.

[nadinbrzezinski]

273. And what if the guy behind the wheel had been

Joe Smith? Would you feel the same way?

[brentspeak]

283. Was Joe Smith an illegal immigrant who the authorities failed to earlier deport?

If so, then I would feel the same way. An opportunity to prevent this tragedy would have been squandered the same way.

Was Joe Smith an American citizen? Then the tragedy would be no less, but the issue addressed in my OP -- failure to enforce a specific law which would have circuitously prevented the incident -- wouldn't be the same.

[nadinbrzezinski]

287. What if the authories did not prevent joe from driving?

what part of drunk driving is a social problem that has precious little to do with social class or national origin are you purposely missing?

Or is this YOUR xenophobia comming through with a little of miscegination to boot?

Damn it, do you have any idea how many Gringos I took care off south of the border who were drunk? Some of them even behind a wheel, and a couple KILLED people.

Perhaps the border should have been closed... then the two year old I declared on the streets woudl be now what a 14 year old...

[flyarm]

242. i was hit by an illegal ( not drunk ) 2 yrs ago with no licence ..who tried to run away..

i took my car and blocked his truck in so he couldn't get away..it was a local landscape company truck..i called police ..he rear ended me..then the driver who couldn't speak english handed me his cell phone and it was the very sucessful landscape owner..on the cell phone begging me not to turn him into police..he begged me to let him pay for my damage if i didn't turn it into police..that made me furious..and i told him to fuck off...

then i told the police of this owners attempt to bribe me..

the driver was taken into custody..by the police who showed up..

i got the police report and yturned it over to my insurance..i do not know what happened to the illegal guy or the owner of the landscape company..but he is still in business..although i have told as many people as i can..and i put a sign on my property saying that company hires illegals and lets them drive illegally..

the township made me take the sign down...

but i will hire no landscape company unless they show me that they hire legal people and i demand to see the licences of their workers.whodrive the trucks...


I have tried to embarrass my neighbors who use the landscape company that hires illegals who hit me..but most of my neighbors are repugs..and they don't give a rats ass..until something happens to them by these illegals..all they seem to give a damn about is getting their work done the cheepest way possible...

the comapny i use, uses legal people..and they are more expensive..but we all get what we pay for ..don't we?? in every way...

i just wonder who has to die before the repugs give a rats ass..about anything but their pocket book today...

I am not anti immigration..my husbands family are hispanic and came to this country legally...

but i hold all of us accountable...our corporations and those who hire illegals...we can not have it both ways..cheep labor and being unwilling to pay more for legal immigrants!! who pay taxes, are licenced..have insurance on our roadways...

this is the second time in 10 years i was hit by an illegal , uninsured person working for US employers..the other time was when i lived in Los Angeles.


we all must take responsibility for this..

do not hire people to do work for you that hire illegals..its very simple really...


but i fear people only give a damn about bottom line in their checkbooks.

fly



p.s. on the o'liely show..i think it was all a stunt..for ratings...and much to do about ratings..nothing more nothing less...they got an audience didn't they??

and every hit on Utube about it proves to them their stunt worked!!...o'liely's ratings are tanking ..and we give that mother fucker a boost when we watch that PR video!!

[Triana]

246. Recent Stats Show That majority of DUIs are From Illegal Immigrants...

....hispanics, mostly. Heard on NPR. I'm not saying one way or another but this has been reported at least twice. Debunk or flame as you wish.

[blondeatlast]

247. I think it's up to you to prove it--I've issued the challenge.

You may be right, but DUers are a smarter than average group--and I'm asking you to source this.

[Iris]

248. Right. Why should we have to debunk your assertion?

That's just stupid. If you don't have something to back this up or don't know how to find it, then don't post it as if it's a fact.

Jeez. This is why I hardly ever come to DU anymore. I can't believe people here are channeling Bill O'Reilly.

on edit: Blonde - I'm agreeing with you but yelling at the original post - just to clarify!

[Tom Joad]

251. she got the orrin hatch award for accuracy...

[blondeatlast]

254. It's the equivalent of "Some people say..." and I won't tolerate it on an intelligent

message board.

:mad:

I often think the most aggravating thing I've ever done for myself is taken journalism and critical thinking!

:thumbsup: to you, Iris!

[Iris]

258. yeah, or just getting an education in general.

It always floors me that folks like Horowitz think colleges & universities teach "liberalism" when, in reality, once you begin to investigate things on your own, there's pratically nowhere else to go but left!

[Tom Joad]

249. Triana, in California according to MADD, 44% of those arrested

are Hispanic. That is not a majority even there. 31% of California's population is Hispanic.
Also, probably most of those Hispanic people were documented residents... hell, most of them have probably had families here longer than my family.

So i think it is a small percentage here in California of DUI are undocumented workers. Nationaly, i expect the percentage is even lower.

Congratulations Trina... i hereby award you with the

Orrin Hatch Accuracy in Public Statements Award

For brazen statements that fly in face of the facts.

[Madspirit]

250. I do not believe you...no way, no how

The majority of drunk drivers are actually young males between the ages of 16 and 30. THAT stat is easily verified. Go to MADD, the government, etc.

The majority of drunk drivers are not killed by illegals. What a crock of crap.
Lee

[Iris]

253. And we should remember that,not everyone who drives drunk gets a DUI.

n/t

[Triana]

298. Can you all READ?

I SAID I heard it on NPR. *I* am not NPR. Please direct your wrath at the SOURCE. I am just telling you what they reported. YOU can go to their site, google, or whatever and then direct your commentary to the sources of the story - 'cause I am not it.


I'm SAYING that is what I heard reported - I did NOT "ASSERT" a damn thing - THEY did.

READ WHAT I WROTE! And STOP reading stuff that I didn't write (which comes from inside YOUR head not from the screen in front of you).

STOP with the knee-jerk reactions already!

[blondeatlast]

301. Some people say--if ya can't prove it, don't post it. nt

[Iris]

309. That's all I'm sayin'. And don't throw NPR in there like they are infallible.

And I'm an NPR-lovin' freak (unlike many progressives).

[Iris]

308. You should have searched NPR's website yourself before you made the assertion.

Yeah, being accountable is a bitch, ain't it?

[blondeatlast]

318. You invited us to flame you. Asking for a source for a "factoid" isn't exactly f

flaming, but you go right ahead and adopt the tactics of the wRong side if it pleases you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

252. Last night, a white guy got shot by a black guy.

That never would have happened if they just sent those people back to Africa.

:eyes:

[Madspirit]

257. ...or

If the white guy had stayed in England/Ireland/Scotland...wherever. That must be the crux of it all. When people of different ethnicities mix, drunk driving is just rampant...haha...

Let's stop with all this mixing it up. Down with drunk driving. <g>
Lee

[Iris]

261. ha! ha! I misread the post you replied to to say:

"Last night a black guy got shot by a white guy. And that would never happen if the black guy had just been sent back to Africa!"

It's been a long week, but I guess either way, the idea is ridiculous!

[Madspirit]

256. Just FYI

I am a Texan. I live in a border state. I have many illegal friends. None drive drunk. Period. The only people I know, personally, who get behind the wheel after drinking too much are young WHITE University of Texas students who party hardy and still drive. We had a cop killed not that long ago, by a WHITE drunk Sorority girl. He had been on the force for less than a year, had a toddler, a pregnant wife and his brains smashed into the windshield. She was an American, white-assed girl, Sorority member. She was sentenced to three years for Intoxication Manslaughter and had the audacity to appeal the sentence. The cop's name was Drew Bolin, in case you want to look it up. He was 26. She was a white American.....little Suzy... Drunk drivers come in every kind. It is the stupidest, most racist, bigoted, xenophobic assertion I've ever heard, blaming this man's illegal status. It's also a position I am ASHAMED to see on Democratic Underground. It has turned this whole thing, instead of being for compassion for the victim, into a pitiful and bigoted argument. Racism is shameful. People need their consciences raised, if such an animal even exists, (a conscience), in the bitter and vitriolic racists I see on this thread.
Lee

[nadinbrzezinski]

265. Gee should I mention all the Americans

who are arrested south of the border for ahem driving drunk?

What about the kid who took a gun and aimed it at me after I stopped to render aid (and triage) at the crash he caused by driving drunk?

What about the two year old dead on scene?

Oh sorry, they were Mexicans right?

Unfriging unbelievable.

Oh by the way... this kid here are the charges

1. Carrying a LOADED weapon in Mexico
2. Pulling that weapon on an Emergency Worker
3. Assault with a deadly weapon on an emergency worker
4. Malicious killing (equivalent of second degree murder) one count
5. Attempted murder (three counts) the rest of the family
6. Driving under the influence
7. Interfering with the functions of emergency workers

Oh and the judge threw the book at him.

I guess he should not have, after all, this kid was an american.

Unfriging unbelievable

But what that drunk told me many years ago has not left my mind and is similar to the attitude of the poster... as I carried out a citizen's arrest... "You can't do that! I'm U.S Citizen!"

Somehow being a US Citizen excused all that... but if you are a Mexican in the US, we're free to hate you. By the way, you think that full citizens, born and bred don't kill others while being drunk?

It happens all the time

[mimitabby]

275. wow, what a thread

it shows just how stubborn someone can be.
of all the "if onlys" the author of this thread could think of, he chose the one
that showed his prejudice.
If only the driver had run out of gas.. the accident wouldnt have happened.
If only the driver had gotten directions and was heading in the right direction,
the accident wouldn't have happened.

If he had changed lanes, the accident wouldn't have happened.

The deaths of these two fine human beings, (and one personally responsible for making
millions upon millions happy because of his movies) is a tragedy.

Another tragedy is that people ILLEGALLY drive drunk. (that includes US citizens, native americans, people with green cards, legal immigrants, illegal immigrants and politicians)

[nadinbrzezinski]

277. Yep the tragedy is that people drive drunk

regardless of where they do it

[brentspeak]

286. What does any of whatever it is you're saying have to do with this particular incident?

Fact: The law of the land wasn't enforced previously (ie. the illegal alien should have been repatriated but was not). As a result, he was still roaming free, and eventually killed two people after driving drunk (and without a license, needless to say).

No American citizen needs to justify his or her demand that the law be properly enforced. On the contrary -- anyone who disagrees that Hector Velazquez-Nava should have been deported earlier is the one who needs to do the explaining.

[Name removed]

296. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

290. Yep, drive near the US side of the Mexican border near san diego, and you are likely to see

dozens of arrests for dui... young college kids mostly native US citizens.

[nadinbrzezinski]

295. Word to the wise

avoid I-5 on Saturday night... 805 is safer

[Maine-ah]

269. Bill?

:P

[Jim Warren]

270. This is bullshit

There was a guy arrested last week who I know to be an undocumented Mexican, he speaks almost no English and has zip in the way of paperwork. He got popped last week.

From the local weekly newspaper police log last week:

The subject was charged with DUI, reckless driving (failing to stay in traffic lanes), driving without a license, driving an uninsured motor vehicle, driving an unregistered motor vehicle, driving an uninspected motor vehicle.

Say what the fuck you want, this is bullshit. If this level of infractions were to happen to him in Mexico this guy wouldn't see daylight for a long, long time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

271. Hmm not quite

DUI is an offense that on a first time will lead to you loosing licence... and having to go see the judge once a week

As to the un inspected vehicle, outside of Mexico City the system does not exist, and driving without a license is a misdemeanor at best

Now if you hurt or kill somebody, whether you are intoxicated or not, raises any of this to a criminal offense.

Granted, the US has pretty lax rules when it comes to a first offense while driving drunk, or second one or a third one, compared to other countries.

But a first offense in mexico is not a jail time offense, beyond the time it takes to see the judge.

[Jim Warren]

276. Mexico is a big country

"But a first offense in mexico is not a jail time offense, beyond the time it takes to see the judge."

Depends on where in Mexico: DF?, la frontera?, a rural state? and importantly WHO is the judge, and who are the police: caminos, judicial, municipal?

I know one thing, if it were me who got popped either here in the US.....OR in Mexico with this level of infractions, I wouldn't see daylight for a good while.

[nadinbrzezinski]

279. I grew up in the DF

and worked in EMS at the border, ahem on the Mexican side while going to college

Generally speaking no, driving drunk is not a jail time offense, the FIRST TIME.... but the second time, it is a jail time offense

Now compare that to the US... generally speaking a drunk driver does not loose that drivers licence until the third offense, and rarely you will see anybody do any jail time

As to checking a vehicle, as I type this I seat in a house in Mexico City, and the only place that has a formal vehicle inspection system (due to polution) is the DF and the areas in the State of Mexico around it. The rest of the country... inspection... you kidding me right?

[Jim Warren]

280. Yes, I figured.

And I lived in Oax. for 10 years, my wife is Oaxaquena, have lots of relatives in DF and we've driven and bussed thousands of kilometers throughout Mexico.

I'm not sure where you are talking about RE "generally speaking a drunk driver does not loose that drivers licence until the third offense, and rarely you will see anybody do any jail time", but where I live in New England, my neighbor did six months after his third DUI.

[nadinbrzezinski]

284. california

[Gin]

281. Last week 2 young high school girls were killed by a drunk driver.

The driver was an illegal alien who had been arrested before for DUI...but not deported...we all found out as a result of these deaths, that you have to have 3 DUI arrests before immigration gets called in.

The girls were not related, but soon would be...their parents are engaged to be married...so each one has lost a daughter.

I hope the parents sue the restaurant that employed this guy...and puts them out of business.

[Jim Warren]

282. Right

One point I'm making is if an offender has no paperwork, no license and speaks/understands a selective amount of the language, who's gonna keep track of how many DUI offenses somebody's got?

[nadinbrzezinski]

285. And once again if the drunk driver's last name was smith

and he was born and raised in the US would that have been somehow better?

Drunk driving is a tragedy, regardless of where it happens

for the record I'm all for toughening the penalties for drunk driving in the United States... compared to the rest of the world we are rather lenient

[brentspeak]

289. That strawman has been beaten to death on this thread many times already

There's no hypothetical situation that can take the place of what actually happened. The Clarks were not killed by a hypothetical situation; they were killed by someone whose path with the Clarks would never have intersected had the law actually been pursued earlier.

[Madspirit]

293. Racism...yawn...still going...

Like that damn Eveready rabbit...going and going and going. Racism is such a self-indulgent, lazy-minded form of analysis.

I live in Texas and have many illegal friends. The only people I know who drive drunk are young white University of Texas students. You should be here on Friday or Saturday night. Most of my illegal friends are far too exhausted from working their asses off, to go out driving and partying.

Regardless, this is a crock. Your point is if this one particular man had not been here, these people would be alive. Something like that could be said about any set of circumstances. It's stupid, frankly. Well, if those people had not left the house that day they would still be alive too...or not. Unless you are actually claiming godlike abilities, you have no idea what may or may not have happened. You are just taking a trivial part of the equation and making a whole theory about it. The driving while drunk is THE problem.
Lee

[trumad]

294. Your fucking OP is hypothetical

[brentspeak]

300. It's "hypothetical" that if this guy was deported he wouldn't have plowed into the Clarks?

That's hypothetical? Does he have the magical ability to be in two places at once?

[Name removed]

305. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trumad]

325. Yeah---and if the 18th admendment wasn't repealed...it wouldn't have happened.

is that hypothetical?

[Name removed]

297. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[B Calm]

299. If he wasn't an illegal, he would be a republican guest worker!

[noamnety]

323. If NO hypothetical is acceptable - why are you still using them?

There's no hypothetical situation that can take the place of what actually happened.

If you aren't using hypotheticals, then quit talking about IF he'd been deported. He wasn't. He was here, and he was driving while intoxicated. Hence the problem.

Whether or not he was here legally or illegally, the situation was that he drank and drove. So the paperwork status is not relevant.

What you are ATTEMPTING to argue is that if he hadn't been here (a hypothetical), it wouldn't have happened. And again, that hypothetical is not related to the status of his papers.

If he wasn't in the country, regardless of his citizenship status, he would not have had the accident.
If he was in the country, regardless of his citizenship status, drinking and driving there and then, he would have had an accident.

So your issue is not the status of his paperwork, but rather that he was in the country at all, legally or not. Thus, it appears xenophobic, and as if the immigration status is your convenient excuse.

You haven't explained WHY you posted this thread. What is your point? You claim not to have one, outside of relaying an individual story about an individual man.

If you aren't implying that drinking and driving is related to immigration status, if you aren't trying to associate immigrants with drunk driving (which I think we can all agree would be bigoted), if you aren't trying to say immigration laws need to be enforced BECAUSE immigrants are drunks, what ARE you trying to accomplish with this post?

[brentspeak]

356. Wow, this is ridiculous

This is unbelievable that some people are so blinded by their need to call other people "xenophobes" or "bigots" that they can't even think rationally. If the other posts in this thread haven't helped you understand the problem, this other post of mine will:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=594169&mesg_id=594169

The "point" of my post isn't about illegal immigrants; it's about illegal immigrants who commit crimes, and how lax enforcement of existing immigration laws enables those illegal immigrants who are criminals to commit more crimes. For lack of a better term, I would call it the "immigration law loophole".

You are aware that illegal aliens are usually, by law, supposed to be deported when discovered? And that, especially, illegal aliens who commit crimes are definitely supposed to be deported when discovered? And that no citizen need ever justify a demand that the law be enforced, but that any citizen who believes otherwise is actually the one who has the explaining to do? You do know these things, right?

[ecstatic]

278. Several unrelated issues worked together to form this tragedy

1) I don't support illegal immigration

2) I DO NOT support hunting down illegal immigrants and deporting them; HOWEVER, if one is caught committing a crime then that person should absolutely be deported immediately (not placed in an American jail, which costs the American taxpayer).

3) Fate/ destiny - sometimes things happen the way they do for a reason that is unknown to us-- Deporting the illegal guy might not have saved the Clarks.

In conclusion, YES, the guy should have been deported when he got the first DUI. The idea is to contain drunk drivers in any way possible--whether it be by jail, deportation, whatever.... just contain them because they are a menace to society.

[NashVegas]

304. We Are Emotional Children in This Country, Who Have Lost All Means of Coping With Tragedy

And instead, attempt to deal with our grievances logically. ie, finger pointing.

And, for our own roles in causing others pain, we'll do anything to avoid accepting responsibility and point the finger elsewhere. Heaven forbid we take 30 seconds to consider the sorrow felt by someone, that our actions contributed to. Besides, if you do, you could get sued.

We'll do anything to avoid considering, feeling or expressing emotional pain.

[bigwillq]

306. "This creep"

I hope it's not because he was an illegal that you are saying this.


:mad:

Whether he is an illegal or not, I really don't see what was the point in you bringing this to our attention.

Big deal. There are a lof of illegals out there.
Blame our government, not this one man.

[nomatrix]

327. He pleaded "not guilty"

See the twisted metal that was once a car that carried the talented director Bob Clark and his 22 year old son to their untimely death. (Apologies to the family for posting the picture of their vehicle, but some really need to see how bad, bad is and stop making light of this tragedy)

http://www.myfoxla.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=2868827&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

Pleads not guilty to two counts of gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated..... Speeding down the wrong way of the Pacific Coast Highway and slamming his 2007 GMC Yukon head-on into Bob Clark's 97 Infinity sedan.

Pleads not guilty to two counts of gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated....
Authorities say Velazquez-Nava had a blood-alcohol level of point-two-four percent, three times the legal limit for driving.
Both he and his passenger were treated for minor injuries after the crash. It took hours to pry the victims out what was their vehicle.

Pleads not guilty to two counts of gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated....
Police say an initial investigation concluded that Nava was driving without a license northbound in the southbound lanes while under the influence of alcohol. He got out of the SUV and walked around.

Pleads not guilty to two counts of gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated....
The vehicle 2007 GMC Yukon ($35,000-45,000 vehicle) was registered in his name, but he had no drivers license or insurance. A 24- yr. old. Why do I mention the cost? I don't know too many unemployed 24 year old with a brand new......unless Mom and Dad had the $$$$$

Pleads not guilty to two counts of gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated....
The man police say is responsible for causing the fatal accident that killed Director Bob Clark and his 22-year-old son faces deportation to Mexico. 24-year-old Hector Velazquez-Nava is an illegal immigrant and if he's able to make his $100,000 bail, US immigration and customs says they'll place him right back into custody.


You said....

Big deal. There are a lot of illegals out there.
Blame our government, not this one man.

That is the problem. This 24 year old doesn't want to be responsible for anything. "The government" has laws that "this one man" decided he didn't have to obey. Because he didn't, he ended the lives of two people. That is HUGE part of the "illegal" above the law argument.
Yes, some people come to the U.S. hoping to start a new life and eventually become a proud citizen. Some are here just to get what they can and get out. Some think Americans owe them, and do whatever they want when they are here.

Legal or Illegal, a person who did what he is charged with must be held accountable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

328. You do realize that many folks, legal or ilegal,

who face trial in the US plea not guilty.

The evidence is there for the DA to press his or her case before a court of law.

We do have a legal system where Mr. Nava is held not guilty until proven otherwise. Now if he had commited the same crime in Mexico, his country of origin, he'd have to prove his innocence to the court, since that is a Napoleonic code.

But, whether you like it or not, Mr. Nava deserves a day in court, and the DA needs to prove his guilt BEYOND A REASONABLE doubt to a jury of his peers, or in this case a jury of American citizens empaneled to do this.

Oh and by the way... seen accidents like that one... and have extracted bodies from vehicles becuase of drunk drivers. I have also had the pleasure of informing folks that their relatives were killed by a drunk driver. I don't care if Mr. Nava is Mexican, Chinese, American, or for that matter came from the planet Mars. If (and I hope the DA presents a solid case) he is found guilty by a jury of his peers, after this case is proven...I want the judge to throw the book at him. Mind you, not becuase he is brown skinned or not legally here, but becuase he was driving drunk and two people died.

But unlike you I'm not willing to call him creep, or do all these wonderful things before he is convicted by a jury of his peers or most likely pleads guilty to lesser charges. The truth of how the game is played.

[pinto]

307. This is a hot topic, obviously. We'd like all to remember our civility guidelines.

Outside of this tragedy, immigration, and concurrent issues, will be a topic of discussion throughout the upcoming election season. Let's try to keep it civil. Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.

Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate. But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion. People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html
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[Lost-in-FL]

334. Other threads are locked for less than this...

so why is this still up? just curious.

[brentspeak]

348. Well, there's several people dead

and the laws which would have prevented those people from being dead weren't enforced. I don't know about you, but 'dead people' and 'unenforced laws' are a pretty big issues which the public has a duty to discuss and hopefully do something about.

[Lost-in-FL]

359. Now it is about dead people

before, the issue was about illegal immigration and not that several people died due to drunken driving. That is the reason you started this thread, as an undocumented immigrants hate fest not because of "dead people" like you are now trying to say.

[Name removed]

360. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lost-in-FL]

361. Don't get personal with me

All I am saying is that you are changing positions. But I guess you cannot handle that.

[Unvanguard]

316. If we deported all blacks (or whites), or stoned all gays (or straights)

I bet we'd prevent a few deaths, too.

So?

[Madspirit]

324. ...and a huge percentage

A HUGE percentage of violent crimes are perpetrated by males between the ages of 15 and 25. In fact the majority of violent crimes falls into this category. Let's put all the boys in a field with ball and chain until they reach 30. <sarcasm>
The ONLY relevant point was that a great guy and his kid were killed by a drunk driver. RIP
Lee

[ContraCommando]

329. That’s a specious argument at best.

The fact is, many such restrictions are already placed on individuals in that age group; for example, minimum age for obtaining a driver’s license, age limit on drinking, etc…all done with the intention of preventing unnecessary deaths.

I’ll try to put this situation in a different light. Let’s say that a major producer of a particular chemical decides to disobey EPA regulations and dump their excess product into a nearby stream. Days later, a famous artist dies as a result. Defenders of this corporation use the argument that the only germane fact is that he died from ingesting a harmful chemical while on a hiking trip with his son. This is true. However, it doesn’t go far enough. The truth is, he died from a product that should not have been in the water in the first place and would not have been there if the chemical producer had obeyed the law. Some could take the argument even farther, if they wanted, and say that people die from dangerous substances all the time - so, what’s the problem? This is also true, but irrelevant. It’s more of a diversion from the specific case in hand rather than a substantive explanation of the event.

Many are attempting to link this director’s death solely with the fact that the perpetrator was drunk. You could make a similar argument with an underage driver, “she was underage and that’s all that matters.” True, if a 15 year old teenage girl kills another driver will driving underage you could argue that the fact that she was underage was the main cause of the crash, nuff said - well, not really. If it turns out that a few miles down the street a cop had pulled her over and had discovered her true age, but let her go because he was a friend of her father, then the story changes completely. Now, the issue isn’t just about her age causing the crash, but the circumstances which led to the accident, namely the cop not enforcing the law and arresting her after discovering her age - which would, thereby, have prevented the accident from occurring.

I understand that many progressives will disagree, it’s human nature - after all, it was a RW commentator who popularized the story. In the same way that many RW’s automatically disbelieve global warming because Al Gore and liberals accept it, many left of center individuals will automatically take the opposite position on this since Bill O’Reilly and the Free republic accept it; I’ve found myself in the same position several times, especially regarding scumbags like Glenn Beck (McCarthy part 2). However, this does not mean that there is not some truth to this particular argument.

[OhioChick]

326. I Agree With You 100%, Brentspeak. n/t

[Name removed]

335. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lost-in-FL]

330. It's the ALCOHOL...

not immigration. Get it?? Do you need a picture???

[EFerrari]

332. I can't believe this thread is still up.

[Lost-in-FL]

333. Tell be about it...

[slutticus]

350. Let it stay up.

Let the ignorant among us be exposed for all to see.

This man killed someone while under the influence...yet all some people see is an "illegal".

[kenny blankenship]

345. this guy was not an immigrant.

need a dictionary?

[Lost-in-FL]

362. So what was he? n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

354. Brentspeak meet Bill O'Reilly Video

Keith named Geraldo Best Person in the world for the day and for good reason.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dJb9-hFbFMk

[nadinbrzezinski]

357. Thanks geraldo rivera deserved it

wow...

[LittleClarkie]

358. To quote Geraldo (gads I never thought I'd say that)

They are two separate issues. Drunk driving is the issue here, not whether or not the person was illegal.