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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:19 PM
Original message
Holder Refuses to Call Warrantless Spying Illegal
In probably the most disturbing testimony to hit Capitol Hill since Attorney General Eric Holder appeared before the House Judiciary Committee in May and refused to rule out lawless detention or to agree that government officials can sometimes be prosecuted for their crimes, on Wednesday Holder appeared before the Senate Judiciary Committee and, among much else, refused five times to agree that warrantless spying is illegal and unconstitutional. I spoke to Holder in April, and he assured me that I would be proud of my country. When?

Over the months that have passed since Holder last testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee at his confirmation hearings, it has become clear that most, if not all, of the major criminal activities of the Bush Administration will be covered up and protected, and in fact continued, by the Obama Administration -- yes, including torture. Most recently in the media, including in Wednesday's New York Times, are accounts of ongoing warrantless spying. At Wednesday's hearing, liveblogged here, illegal spying was the subject of a dramatic exchange.

Chairman Patrick Leahy was the first to raise the topic and to complain that he had to learn about the executive branch's crimes from the New York Times. I'm not sure who he would prefer or expect to hear such things from. Holder, in response, claimed not to know anything about it, because he hadn't "reviewed in any detail" the New York Times article. Senators Tom Coburn and Diane Feinstein both claimed that the New York Times article was not accurate.

But whether that article is accurate or not misses the broader question that was then raised by Senator Russ Feingold. He pointed out that executive "opinions" asserting the legality of torture have been overturned, but that those asserting the legality of warrantless wiretapping have not been. Senator Feinstein asked whether the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) "opinion" announcing that the 4th Amendment did not apply in the "war on terror" had been withdrawn. Holder said he did not know. Feingold pointed to past statements by Barack Obama and Eric Holder denouncing the warrantless wiretapping. And he asked Holder directly whether the warrantless wiretapping programs set up during Bush's presidency were illegal. Holder replied that they were "unwise". So Feingold asked again, and a third, fourth, and fifth time. Holder would go so far as to say "inconsistent with FISA" and yet explicitly refused to say "illegal." Holder said he hoped to someday release secret "opinions" on spying. But releasing something is not the same as overturning or "withdrawing" it. After five unsuccessful attempts to get Holder to call illegal spying illegal (even though Holder would, later in the same hearing, indicate his reliance on legislation that provided immunity for the crime), Feingold gave up and moved to another topic.

Feingold asked Holder about abuse of the "state secrets" privilege. Since February, Feingold said, he has sought a classified briefing from the executive branch to explain three cases in which Holder's department has used the "state secrets" excuse to try to block court cases. Feingold asked Holder to get him that briefing. Holder refused twice, but did claim that within "a matter of days" he would make some proposals public. The Senate Judiciary Committee plans on Thursday to mark up the State Secrets Protection Act, a bill to restrain executive abuse. Holder told the committee on Wednesday that the executive branch would release its position on the matter within days, and that then no legislation should be needed. Leahy appeared to agree to that outrageous assertion of power, saying that unless the position was released, his committee would mark up the bill.

Senator Dick Durbin asked Holder about the endlessly delayed report from the Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR), within the Department of Justice, on Jay Bybee's, John Yoo's, and Steven Bradbury's complicity in torture. Durbin pointed out that it has been six weeks since the comment period for the subjects closed (that is to say, Yoo and Bybee and Bradbury concluded their unprecedented and outrageous opportunity to submit edits to a report on their own wrongdoing). Holder told Durbin that changes are being made to the report as a result of those responses. He said that part of the report might be released in "a matter of weeks", but that other parts will be classified. Holder added that he believed the unclassified portion alone would give wrong impressions. He said that he would want to get more of the report declassified, but that doing so would take more time.

It's worth noting that leaders in both houses of Congress, including Leahy and his House counterpart Chairman John Conyers, have long since made clear that they will not seek to hold anyone accountable for torture until the OPR report is released. Presumably they mean the full report. And that could apparently be months or never. No doubt the assurances that all action will wait for the report is strong motivation to delay the report.

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse ran through the chronology of delays and stalling tactics thus far. He said that on February 18, 2008, he had been told the OPR report was underway, that a draft report had been delivered in December 2008, that on May 4, 2009, the comment period from the torture lawyers had ended, and that the CIA was given an opportunity for substantive comment and classification review. Whitehouse asked whether the CIA was the current logjam. Holder said No. He said that the OPR is still working on the report in light of the responses it received from the torturers six weeks ago. Whitehouse focused on the CIA and asked Holder (a number of times) if he had any assurances from the CIA that those giving input to the report were not themselves involved in the torture. Holder made clear that the answer was no. He has no such assurances and isn't interested in them.

Wednesday's hearing also featured an amicable exchange in which Holder and Senator Lindsey Graham discussed the creation of a "review" procedure that might amount to "due process" for prisoners who would be held forever without trial. Graham also asked for an assurance from Holder that the President would decree torture photos to be classified before (or after) the next court order to release them. On that point, Holder refused to make such a commitment. But then, he's not the president.

Holder did say something encouraging about the nature of OLC opinions. Senator John Cornyn, who is concerned to prevent the residents of Washington D.C. from having voting representation in Congress, said that an OLC opinion that a proposal for DC voting rights was unconstitutional had not been released. Pressed repeatedly, Holder ended up saying that OLC opinions are just recommendations that he has the power to ignore. Of course, this should be true, but then Ashcroft, Gonzales, and Mukasey, not to mention Bush, had the same power and responsibility to reject absurd "opinions" that torture and warrantless spying and wars of aggression were legal.

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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Let's face it, power corrupts. Once you are on the inside, it seduces you.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. what a tool this man is. a complete tool. nt
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. "Genie let out, of the bottle, it is now the witching hour"....
The genie is out of the bottle on the wiretapping. There was a recent squeal in London about civil liberties, and the solution was to transfer the wiretapping from government to corporate control. This is a non-solution, but its going on all over. Facebook, Gmail, Youtube, Vonage etc. these companies control all the data you consider private, it exists on their private servers and networks. If the same data is controlled by the government rather than corporations that's not a big change.

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Badgerman Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. Holder is a Janet Reno protege'..any further questions? n/t
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. So much for change
I figured that this sort of shit would happen, no matter who the Dems put in office. That's why they didn't go after Bush on this shit, they wanted the chance to play with all these shiny new unconstitutional toys themselves.

Simply more evidence that we're living under the two party/same corporate master system of government, and we're not going to have any sort of meaningful change until we take corporate money and corporations out of the picture. The only way that will happen is either by publicly funded elections, or by going Green, since they don't take corporate money. Or Dennis Kucinich, since he doesn't take corporate money either.
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dreamnightwind Donating Member (863 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
35. Well said!
I had a little more faith in our Dems, no more though. Right on about publicly financed elections or non-corporate candidates.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. ARRRGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!

NT

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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. I guess our only hope is to keep changing presidents every four years
IF they're all goiong to fuck over our rights, what other choice is there?
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. glad you asked
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tan guera Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
27. A third party! A progressive party
Let's run Dean again. :-)
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Whoa. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
First, we need a *second* party.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-19-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
37. OUR ONLY HOPE...
is to take over our country.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. Holder is a joke
and always has been. When he walked in, I knew that as long as he was around, nothing good would come of it. And nothing does.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. I blame Rachel Maddow.
:crazy:

Just kidding. This is all too predictable, frankly.
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. KandR. n/t
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank you David.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
13. We knew this was to be...
...and we were shouted down. We were told things were going to change.

Thanks David.

K&R
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. +1.
Yep.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-20-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. Yes we did. Obama said that the watchers were going to be
watched. Sen. Feingold wanted more because violating FISA was against the law. He said that the "Administration decided to break the law and they have yet to give a convincing explanation of why their actions were necessary, appropriate, or legal. Passing more laws will not change the fact that the President broke the ones already in place and for that, Congress must hold him accountable.”
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. Ah yes, more nonChange You Can Believe In
Change always looks better from the outside.

When you are on the inside, it becomes clear how dangerous to staying in power change might be.

As everyone gets tired of hearing me say, I do prefer the illusion of Democracy, and the somewhat more social responsibility, we get when Democrats are in power, to the naked Fascism of Republican administrations: But I do not suffer the illusion that either party is anything other than a than a tool used by the ruling class to keep the rest of us quiet.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. The Audacity of Nope n/t
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. Video, if you can stand it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=325820&mesg_id=325843

Emptywheel--- some transcript and commentary:

Holder Refuses to Stand By Statements Saying Violating FISA Breaks the Law
By: emptywheel Wednesday June 17, 2009 11:30 a

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/06/17/holder-refuses-to-stand-by-statements-saying-violating-fisa-breaks-the-law/


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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
16. Where Are the Obamabots?
Too busy with teh gays?
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. You know the script. This isn't Obama. It's the DoJ, his hands
are tied, the DoJ's hands are tied, Holder's hands are tied.

Ain't nobody who can do nothing about it.
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. They're busy here:
Edited on Wed Jun-17-09 07:48 PM by dgibby
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8477817

No doubt they'll be here shortly. Seems they travel in a swarm now. Strength in numbers, don't cha know?
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R This just makes me sick. n/t
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
18. Chess.
He's playing Chess.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
30. I think he is playing chess
The problem is, he's playing against US.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. K&Rnt
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. Yeah but
he's independent. BWWWWWWWWWAH. He doesn't think what Obama wants him to think. I never believed he wasn't listening to every word and thought Obama had and making him this own for a minute but damn I can't prove it so...I GUESS it just looks that way.

Talk about stooges.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
24. Since Holder Admitted to Signing Off on Clinton's Outsourced Torture...
I'm not sure what anyone was expecting here. Holder holds extremist views, not as bad as Bush's lawyers but definitely in the same direction.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
26. Don't forget how many on the Committee also voted for Mukasky.
I am still waiting for the Contempt of Congress issue re: Rove and his munchkins to get resolved.

The whole lot of them-Congress, the WH, DOJ, , all of them have foot dragging down to a fine art.

I no longer listen to the MSM.
I stopped watching the hearings, they are just show pieces.
Reality sucks but it is time to realize there is no use in hoping for a miracle to emerge from D.C.

Thanks davidswanson for the overview of what happened to day.


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. Holder was a problem before he was confirmed. K&R
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pmorlan1 Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
29. Bad Dream
It's like we're having a bad dream and we just can't wake up. We thought our nightmare was over when Obama was elected and now we find that we are still trapped in this nightmare world.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
32. Oh, that video was painful to watch
A truly Gonzo-esque performance by the AG. :banghead:
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
33. Evidently, up is still down.
Edited on Thu Jun-18-09 01:23 AM by kenny blankenship
I thought 8 years of up being down was about far as it could go, and 7 years too many at least.
Wake me when this bullshit is all over with.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
34. Son of a bitch!
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evamoly Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
36. Covering up
Obama and his administration do not have much choice to cover up for the previous administration... it is not as if foreign governments will suddenly forgive a country just because its leader condemns what his predecessor has done.

Eva Moly, culinary arts colleges ' student
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-19-09 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
38. morning kick for truth, nt
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