"I saw things today that I think will mess me up for life."

[WilliamPitt]

Donna Hogue, left, and Tracey Hogue, mother and sister of Trevor Hogue. (Photo: Lezlie Sterling / Sacramento Bee)

Fifteen Months After Bloodbath in Iraq, Young Veteran Takes His Life
Thursday 11 June 2009
by: Cynthia Hubert | The Sacramento Bee

On March 7, 2007, Army Spc. Trevor Hogue was inside his barracks in Baghdad, describing his morning on the battlefield.

"I saw things today that I think will mess me up for life," Hogue typed to his mother, Donna, as she sat at her computer thousands of miles away from Iraq, in Granite Bay.

That day the young soldier, whose assignment included driving a Humvee through perhaps the most dangerous ZIP code on the globe, saw his sergeant blown to pieces. He saw the bodies of half of the men in his platoon torn apart. Heads were cut off and limbs severed. It happened 30 yards in front of him, and he had never been so afraid, he told his mom.

"My arms are around you," Donna Hogue wrote. "You'll be alright."

But Hogue never really recovered. Last week, he committed suicide by hanging himself in the backyard of his childhood home. He was 24 years old.

The rest: http://www.truthout.org/061209K

[BlooInBloo]

1. :(((((( RIP.

Sigh.

[Downtown Hound]

2. Looking at that photo of his mother and sister...

I just wonder, what will become of them? How disillusioned is that poor, young girl now? What will become of her later in life? So young, and forced to deal with so much. It's so easy to forget that with every death from Iraq, there's a family left behind that's devastated. So many gone, so many devastated, for what?

George W. Bush and all his neo-con enablers, may you ALL burn in hell for what you've done.

[truth2power]

8. I don't believe in a literal hell, but

I agree with you. I hope Bush, Cheney, Rummy et al burn in hell, or somewhere similar to it.

[Downtown Hound]

9. I don't believe in a literal hell either

But George W. Bush and his crew are the only people throughout my entire life that have ever made me wish I was wrong.

[yy4me]

37. Ditto

[Enthusiast]

158. We think alike, Hound.

When we examine the lives of some, born into the unimaginably horrible, then we can conjure up some worse fate (hell) for them after death? I don't think so! But, like you, I sometimes wish there was a place that dispensed an adequate punishment for the likes of Cheney, Bush, Reagan and Rumsfeld.

[tavalon]

170. Ain't that the truth!

[wroberts189]

12. From what I have read from many spiritual writings...

No debt goes unpaid.

Hell was a useful metaphor for the people of those biblical times... only thing they could understand. Today the phrase "There will be hell to pay for clear mortal sins" would be the modern version.

It does not imply punishment ... more like "You will reap what you sow".

They will find themselves having a lot to make up for in succeeding lives. "What goes around comes around".

If you believe that sort of thing...

[omega minimo]

131. "Instant karma gonna get you"

Retribution, rewards and karma are all around us, right here, right now.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

167. I do. n/t

[snake in the grass]

69. I don't believe in Hell...

...and that's why the remainder of their putrid lives should be made Hell on Earth. Investigate, Indict, Incarcerate! Now!

[DutchLiberal]

111. They need to go to JAIL.

[jmowreader]

115. Jail isn't enough for those people

For Bush, the only acceptable answer is suicide.

[Enthusiast]

159. For a man born into

such privilege, jail would be a terror. He has seldom faced an uncomfortable moment in his life.

[DutchLiberal]

209. No, I want him punished for life for his criminal actions. I want to see him sitting in jail.

Since I don't believe in "hell", I want to see him and all of his enablers stand trial and put in jail.

[w8liftinglady]

117. I was told this week to forgive and forget...

by one of the local neocons who resents my continued desire to see Bush and Cheney answer for their crimes.I can't.

[Downtown Hound]

127. They need to ask for forgiveness first

Before it's even considered whether or not it will be given or not.

[omega minimo]

133. Forgive strategerists who gambled wrong and forget the Constitution

:hi:

[ljm2002]

3. So terribly sad...

...especially that note at the end. To see such a young man, devastated to the point where he saw no other way out. And his family must be devastated as well.

[YOY]

4. No words.

Just sadness.

[2 Much Tribulation]

5. prayers for all affected by this terrible tragedy. peace. nt

[ensho]

6. and it seems all the military is doing about the epidemic of suicides

is to ask them please not to kill themselves.

the military also said they didn't have enough psych doctors. or the money to hire more.

this is outrageous. the pentagon could not buy a couple of killing machines and then have enough money for more doctors.

[tabasco]

56. Obama increased VA funding by more than in 30 years.

Much of that will go to better counseling and treatment.

[Soylent Brice]

7. .

don't know whether to cry or scream.

[madrchsod]

10. the war will never end for his mom and sister

his death was in vain and his loved ones wound will never be healed.

a war based on a lie

[wroberts189]

13. That picture is heartbreaking... really drives it home. nt

[wroberts189]

11. 24 years old... damn :( nt

[Subdivisions]

14. GOD DAMN IT! Mr. President! Get our people out of there! NOW! n/t

[Butch350]

129. GOD DAMN the man who started the whole shit with a LIE!

[redqueen]

15. So heartbreaking.

Just imagine how many other soldiers are still hurting, as he was. And so many more Iraqis...

[femrap]

16. Why do these young people enter this

military death machine? Is it patriotism, machismo, poverty, find a trade? Don't they see what is happening to those already in this war?

War is unnatural to so many....sure there are the few nut jobs who like it, but most can't stand it.

Declare war, you asshole leaders.....and let's watch no one show up to fight for you. Leaders, you fight it. We could sell tickets and make a lot of $$$$. Put 'em in a boxing ring and have at it.

May the Reformers win in Iran today.

[WilliamPitt]

18. Lack of jobs, lack of opportunity, lack of education.

The problem isn't the people who join up. The problem is what was done to them to make joining up a good option.

[Triana]

36. That's just the way the neocons like it too - lots of cannon fodder. Poor,

fearful, no opportunity, uneducated. I'm convinced this is one reason they HATE social programs and public education.

Poor uneducated, destitute young people are perfect for sending off to fight THEIR wars (while their own kids and themselves are conveniently excused from it or can avoid it).

[Brooklyns_Finest]

132. Not always the case

I joined because I grew up watching GI Joe and admiring my older Marine cousins. I was neither poor nor uneducated, and I had a lot of different options besides the military. I just had a drive to join the Marines. I had the opportunity to serve in Iraq for 6 months back in 2003.

While this story is very sad, the vast majority of people who serve do not leave the military with lasting mental or emotional issues.

I would and will encourage my own sons to join the Corps.

[omega minimo]

134. That includes people of affluence. Do you know what Granite Bay is?

I hope that next time more of the gung ho types are more aware of how many meatgrinders the U.S. has thrown young people at.

With all due respect.

[Cid_B]

164. What exactly was "done" to me?

I came from a very stable home with two loving parents. My family has a military/law enforcement history. I excelled in HS and college after being awarded multiple scholarships. I am well educated, well traveled ( both before and during my military time) and speak more than one language.

My skills, interests and abilities range from the experience needed to assault, cordon, search and secure a village to gourmet cuisine from around the world.

I joined because the goals and missions of the military fit my personality and skills. In other words I thought I would be good at it. Surprise Surprise! I turned out to be right.

I also might add that I am not an exception to the rule. The Soldiers around me run the full gamut of society just like anywhere else.

Don't presume to assign victim-hood status to me.

[Chulanowa]

25. Poverty is a big one

But anyone who can join the military can get a job that doesn't involve being shot, too. So, it's kind of a lesser reason.

The real reason is purpose. People in the targeted age group are just now out on their own - they've left their parents' home, they've ended their time in the school system, and lots of them are looking for a purpose, or some structure in their life. The freedom of adulthood is liberating - but it's also frightening. The military offers a structured world where you have some sort of purpose. It's marketed as being heroic or adventurous to join, but even if it weren't, it would still attract young men (and to a lesser extent, young women) because of the structure it offers.

[omega minimo]

135. Good points and people are too accustomed to undeclared and/or illegal wars

and the marketing makes people go along instead of ask :wtf:?

[Hannah Bell]

144. I went to a HS scholarship ceremony this week. The same 20-odd kids

took home most of $75K in scholarship money; then at the end, the local army & marine recruiters handed out *their* "scholarships" (supposedly $40-$75K in return for getting shot at for a few years).

Don't tell me poverty isn't the main reason. The difference between the junior yuppies who took home most of the non-military money & the kids in the military line was night & day, literally night & day. I wanted to cry.

[TerryRay]

62. I know

Alot of people will say poverty and lack of direction lead young people to the military and that is true to an extent. But there is a % of people who not only feel obligated to but also WANT to serve our country. Not saying they enjoy the idea of war, but that they do feel it is part of their duty to serve America. I was one of them. I was from a family of military and I wanted to join, I went thru DEPS, but my knee was to torn up so I could not get in. I did not want to fight or relish the idea, but I did feel that I should serve my country based on the basic American ideals.

The sad thing is those ideals are turned agianst us and we now use our military for the wrong reasons

[wryter2000]

83. Welcome, TerryRay

:applause:

[kestrel91316]

88. There are lots of ways to serve your country that don't involve

shooting and killing others. I would suggest something in the healthcare field, perhaps public health in some capacity. Perhaps teaching.

It is wrong to assume you can only serve by killing and using force. There is nothing dishonorable in rejecting military service in favor of other forms of service. And I say this as the daughter of a career USAF officer.

[TerryRay]

116. It is how you look at it

I did not look at being in the service as shooting and killing..I looked at it as defending and protecting. There are a ton of fields in the military that do not shoot and kill, like the medical field

[omega minimo]

136. and some of us "support the troops" by questioning those "wrong reasons"

to prevent a totally unnecessary loss -- each and every one -- as in the OP

[tavalon]

171. All of those and likely more reasons than we can imagine

Many of the youngest ones are still in the developmental stage in which they think themselves invincible. People their age make stupid mistakes all the time. Unfortunately this can be deadly.

[deutsey]

17. The military really must stop seeing PTSD as a weakness or however they see it

and start taking care of the men and women who served and need real help.

[progressoid]

19. Damn.

[Wind Dancer]

20. Heartbreaking!

This article was written in 2007 and well worth the read:

120 War Vets Commit Suicide Each Week

"Earlier this year, using the clout that only major broadcast networks seem capable of mustering, CBS News contacted the governments of all 50 states requesting their official records of death by suicide going back 12 years. They heard back from 45 of the 50. From the mountains of gathered information, they sifted out the suicides of those Americans who had served in the armed forces. What they discovered is that in 2005 alone -- and remember, this is just in 45 states -- there were at least 6,256 veteran suicides, 120 every week for a year and an average of 17 every day.

As the widow of a Vietnam vet who killed himself after coming home, and as the author of a book for which I interviewed dozens of other women who had also lost husbands (or sons or fathers) to PTSD and suicide in the aftermath of the war in Vietnam, I am deeply grateful to CBS for undertaking this long overdue investigation. I am also heartbroken that the numbers are so astonishingly high and tentatively optimistic that perhaps now that there are hard numbers to attest to the magnitude of the problem, it will finally be taken seriously. I say tentatively because this is an administration that melts hard numbers on their tongues like communion wafers."

more

http://www.alternet.org/world/68713/

[PSzymeczek]

112. What makes me angriest

is that he will not be counted as a casualty of war.

[Danascot]

21. Since Bush was so interested in his legacy

here it is.

[mnhtnbb]

22. It might be time for Mom to get out of the mini-skirt.

Looks to me like that soldier may have been seriously in need of parental maturity to guide him.

Pretty harsh comment, I know. But stay with me.

Too many of our young people are joining up because they lack the understanding of what war is all about.
My husband has a great-nephew in Afghanistan right now after already serving a tour in Iraq. This 22 yo kid
signed up wanting 'adventure'. He grew up in a southern, Republican family that glorified war--from
the Revolutionary to the War Between the States to WW II. His father did NOT serve, but told him all the stories.

I would love all the anti-choice zealots who are showing grisly photos of aborted remains because they are
pro-life to start clamoring for every enlistee to be shown the result of war. Make them visit
the VA Hospitals, show them photos from the OR's of soldiers being put back together again.
Show them photos of civilians blown to smithereens.

Maybe I'm judging a book by its cover, but then, that's all one can do from a picture.

[Dora]

24. .

:wtf:

[Chulanowa]

26. That's a pretty fucking ignorant thing to say

Maybe you shouldn't judge an entire family based on a fashion choice from a single photo, one way or another.

[mnhtnbb]

33. She looks like she's trying to be a teenager. How mature are most teens?

[truedelphi]

89. I suggest that you watch the movie "Erin Brockavitch" some time.

Or hang out at the TV next time Dolly Parton's life story is discussed.

Why is it okay to think that women who dress up sexy are mindless and insignificant and even if their child diess in a war, it is obviously their fault, cuz they dress like they are younger.

Whatever...

[omega minimo]

138. The truth is that Granite Bay is an extremely affluent, exclusive, new suburb at Folsom Lake

My first thought on the photo would be that they were caught at a moment in life, not thinking about changing clothes. So there it is. Yes, it's warm weather as someone mentioned and yes, this is an affluent white family that sent a child away to an illegal and undeclared war, waged by an unelected (twice!!) administration that should have been impeached, for lying about starting this war and much more.... and the child returned so damaged, it was all over for him.

When we're out there at the Capitol and people in the millions march the planet, and the yeehaws and gung hos from the rich, white suburbs drive down with their flags waving and yellow ribbons menacing out of their luxury Urban Assault Vehicles and Hummers, I wonder, how will we ever get through to these jingoists that we are on THEIR side.

I can still feel it. The knowledge that they would discover, or their family members who served would discover, how deeply and despicably they had been deceived by Bushco.

I was joining millions trying to prevent unecessary death and destruction of the cradle of civilization...

I was also worried about the survivors: maimed, brain damaged, whole and totally mindfucked, when they realized (or never did) that the whole fucking thing was totally bogus. How about wrapping your PTSD'd head around THAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:cry:



** Hi True Delphi **

[truedelphi]

145. The grief that this young man's mom and sister must feel, touched me deeply.

Just about two weeks ago, I was at a small dinner party a friend threw for my husband.

This friend is a man who painted himself from head to toe in the most outrageous colorings - he became a human tattoo. For just one day. The day of what would have been his induction into the US Army (Vietnam era)

Feeling passionately thatt the Vietnam war was a monstorus and unforgiveable sin against the Vietnam people, and not knowing how to avoid the draft, he made his body a canvas.

So he walked,painted up and NAKED into the local HS gym where the young men were being inducted. Somewhere between 300 and 600 people were in that room that day. When they saw him, they fell silent. he said you could have heard the proverbial pin drop.

The people in that gym saw him as a freak and a monster. And no one from the US Army knew what to do with him.
All day long, he was taken from one room to another. He was taken to the induction doctor, and to the induction psychologist etc.

Eventually, because a woman who had brought her younger children to see off the induction of her older child felt that his nakedness had been indecent exposure to a minor, he was charged with indecency given three months in jail. He only had to serve 45 days. But he never got bothered by the Army again.

Now it is the present era. His older step daughter is welcoming home her husband from Iraq. And this step daughter speaks in glowing terms of how her husband's service in Iraq contributed to the intalling of freedom for the "women and children" in Iraq. I was numb hearing the young woman talk about the War. There were, in her point of view, no casualties - just winners. The service people won - because they got to overthrow a Dictator. The Iraqi women and children got to win on account of all the freedom now showering the Iraqis. Et Cetera.

What makes it worse is that this step daughter is a sweet and lovely young woman. She lights up a room when she enters it, and is simply fun and charming to be around. But her poltical viewpoint is so twisted that I have no idea on how you could straighten her out.

I was so numb I thought I might faint when I listened to her accounts of this war.

All I can think is, if B could not dissuade his daughter from worshipping the current war in Iraq, no one could dissuade anyone else from war.

[omega minimo]

148. What a story!

:wow:

[lunatica]

28. What a disgusting thing to say!

[mnhtnbb]

34. Did you read the entire post?

[lunatica]

51. You're implying that her attire is what drove him to suicide

The damn post said he saw his fellow soldiers blown to piece in front of him.

What you said is one of the shittiest things I've seen here or anywhere.

[mnhtnbb]

68. I'm implying that he was parented by a mother who views herself as a teenager.

[Quantess]

106. It is June in Sacramento California. A lot of people in Sacramento are wearing skimpy clothing.

Because it's hot there.

Who are you to decide who should and who should not wear a "miniskirt"? And to assume that any woman who wears a short skirt thinks of herself as a teenager? Get over yourself.

[defendandprotect]

120. So these "suicides" and presumably PTSD are basically the fault of mothers . . .

who don't know "What Not to Wear?"



:smoke:

[truedelphi]

146. Haven't you ever watched "Erin Brockavitch"

Or heard and seen Dolly Parton. Some people dress like this. So what?

[mnhtnbb]

190. So maybe she's only guilty of bad taste. That's an easy thing to say.

It doesn't require throwing stones at me, insulting me, telling me I'm fucked.

Erin Brockavitch is still all boobs and skin tight clothes. She's become a celebrity and as such,
maintains her Hollywood shock value dress code.

This is a mother whose soldier son comes home and commits suicide. She agrees to let the press in her home
for a picture. I was shocked by the picture because it didn't "fit" with the circumstances.

Dolly Parton is a character unto herself. She's a stage personality. She has chosen to make a caricature
out of herself, which is her choice. No comparison.

[winyanstaz]

150. How a grown woman dresses is none of your damned business

And it is NOT your place to judge her.
It is people like you that want women to dress head to toe in tents.
Your idea of proper or fashion is not the end all.
How a person dresses has nothing to do with what kind of human being they are.
I have seen some real fashion plates turn out to be criminals of the worst sort and people dressed in rags that were angels.

[omega minimo]

141. Really?

:wow:

[Downtown Hound]

128. Yes, and it's stupid all the way through. n/t

[malaise]

35. You're too kind

That's a fucking inappropriate comment.

[mnhtnbb]

38. I knew I'd get flamed for that. The concept that parents ought

to demonstrate some type of maturity to their offspring is not endorsed in this country.

[malaise]

40. Sorry I see nothing immature with a woman wearing a

mini-skirt. What she wears in her home has nothing to do with parenting.

[mnhtnbb]

60. Women who dress like they are auditioning for "Pretty Woman"

before the transformation are not going to be respected.

This is not an old fuddy-duddy speaking. I do not dress like an old lady. There's a vast difference
between dressing mid-40's (which I'm guessing Donna is, given she was married 30 years before divorcing)
and dressing to look like your teenage daughter.

And I beg to differ with you. What image is she trying to present to the world? A bereaved mother?
I don't think so.

[Stargazer09]

70. What kind of person are you?

You are accusing that poor woman of auditioning for the role of a prostitute simply because she is wearing clothes that she most likely purchased before her son died.

You are calling her immature for wearing an attractive outfit and not dressing the way that you think she should dress at her age.

And you are blaming her son's death on the immaturity you perceive in his mother, rather than reading the article and discovering that he simply wanted something else out of his life than what he saw at college.

How absolutely sickening.

[malaise]

79. And in her own freaking home to boot

SO those of us who wear shorts and skimpy tops in our own homes are tramps who are bad parents. Boo fugging hoo!!

[QueenOfCalifornia]

107. here's a

shovel...

Keep on digging that hole you are in... it's getting real deep.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lunatica]

52. How does that cause suicide?

[mnhtnbb]

63. I'm suggesting that a woman who dresses like a teenager may not be

the most mature person in the world.

Is it horrible that her son committed suicide? Yes. Is it horrible that the Bushies lied us into
an unjust and illegal war? Yes. Is the death of her son here any worse than the death of Cindy Sheehan's son in Iraq? No.

Look. My hubby is a psychiatrist who spent a good part of his career in the VA system. He was Berry Planned into serving in the Air Force during Vietnam. I am sure this woman has a lot of pain.
Any parent who has to live with the suicide of a child--and any child who lives with the suicide of a parent--lives with incredible pain for the rest of their lives.

I just wonder how much this woman--who dresses like a teenager--thought about the consequences
of her son enlisting. Did she discourage him? Did she do everything she could to educate him
about the reality of war? Has she done everything possible to put the focus where it belongs instead of on herself? I have to say "no" because her attire jumps out at me. It says, "look at me". That is not the sign of a mature woman.

[Downtown Hound]

123. Oh, look at you all growed up and mature like!

Offering your expert psychoanalysis of this whole family based on a woman's dress. The comical thing about you is you really have no idea of how stupid you sound. You offer up all those theories based on one picture? Wow you're really smart. You just figured all this out haven't you?

Seriously, go away. You have crossed a line here, and it's not at all funny.

[WinkyDink]

162. This has got to win "Most Ignorant Post of the Year." Now go put on your "Little House on the

Prairie" gingham and bake your pie for the Ice-Cream Social.

[cwydro]

178. Unbelievable.

You really ought to think before you post.

[lunatica]

192. You are shallow then

And even after claiming you know all about this kind of pain. Frankly, shame on you for passing judgement based on a photo where you look at the woman's skirt and totally miss the pain in her face. Shame on you

[Texasgal]

58. Since when is wearing a mini skirt

a sign of bad parenting?

[mnhtnbb]

64. Wearing a mini-skirt when that's what teenagers wear is a sign of

not wanting to grow up. Grown-ups parent. Children don't make the best parents.

[Hekate]

85. mnhtnbb, kindly get your head out of where the sun don't shine and admit you erred

We all think things that are better not said or written. Mostly we refrain out of compassion or simply courtesy. You erred in not refraining, and that's the kindest thing I can think of to say under the circumstances.

Apologize and move on.

Hekate

[Statistical]

139. No I think what is not endorsed is the concept

that some know it all anonymous little shit on the internet can determine from a single photo that the mother was unfit and therefore allowed her son to die.

I strongly recommend a professional to talk too as you obviously have issues with women especially ones that dress in a manner you find unacceptable.

Your comments bordered on freeper "family values" shit. No scratch that you are past the border.

[omega minimo]

142. Or

a peek into an affluent and grieving home reveals an intimate look at how immature and trendy youth obsessed, TV dominated American culture has become..... which arguably makes it easier for the liars to send yet another generation into yet another meatgrinder.

:think:

[Statistical]

147. If you spent an hour with the family and reached that conclusion you might be onto something.

If you reach it by looking at a single photo that makes you an ass not a genius.
Snap judgments based on photos how "progressive".

When I was in the Army stationed in Korea the gunner on the same Bradley as me, his family was staunchly anti-military.
He even talked about going to rallies as a teenager. If he had died I guess you might have judged his family based on a photo too.

[omega minimo]

149. Screw your "snap judgments"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5832304&mesg_id=5839412

[omega minimo]

140. You're right, it's the fashion of the affluent place he's from. And American hubris/immaturity

Because it's trendy, many folk aren't gonna hear you.

That photo shows the people who try to imitate the stuff shown on TV. It's "normal." :hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5832304&mesg_id=5839412

[krabigirl]

182. Oh wait, she's over 40...time to bring out the burkas! ugh...

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

31. WTF?

[yy4me]

39. Wow, your lack of compassion is astounding. What difference

does her skirt make? Remember the old adage, "clothes don't make the man".

Whatever else you said, your first comment killed it.

[LeftyMom]

41. If you can't show any compassion, at least have the decency to shut the fuck up.

The lady's kid is dead, I doubt going to the mall to get appropriate mourning clothes was real high on her to-do list.

[mnhtnbb]

66. People send their kids off to war and then they are surprised when they come back damaged?

What's up with that?

I'll tell you. Unrealistic expectations.

Take a look. Her daughter is dressed more appropriately. What's up with that?

[Stargazer09]

74. How did she send her son off to war?

He was an adult when he joined the military. Since his family and friends expressed surprise at his decision to enlist, it's obvious that they did not pressure him to join.

The article did not say that the man's mother was a military officer in charge of deciding whether or not to put anyone in harm's way.

Maybe you need to just stop judging people by their clothing. And maybe you need to spend some time in the military to understand why some people choose to join.

[Downtown Hound]

55. Yeah, you're right!

Get out of that skirt woman! I can't tell you how glad I am you pointed this out to me. Thanks for showing all of us what's really important!

Do I really need the sarcasm tag here? Well, here it is in case your sense of irony is as crippled as your sense of compassion is.

:sarcasm:

[superduperfarleft]

65. What are you, a thousand years old?

Piss off, grandma Simpson.

[mnhtnbb]

71. No. I pass for 5 years younger than I am. Dressing appropriately

whether for a business meeting, an interview, a speech for a fundraiser (Sarah Palin is notorious
for dressing inappropriately)running to the store, or anything at all presents the way one views oneself
to the world.

Ask any professional involved with dressing the public. This woman is NOT dressed appropriately.
And I doubt that it's just one time. She has issues with being viewed as much younger than she is; sexy;
available.

[superduperfarleft]

72. Oh, so you're just catty.

Meow *cough* meow *wheeze*

You may "dress appropriately," but it's not very polite to come into a thread about someone's suicide and shit all over his mother's fashion choices. And I think that counts for a lot more than the fact that you might not be caught dead in a mini-skirt.

But who knows, maybe my priorities are all screwed up. Thank god you're here to point out the important things. :sarcasm:

edit: I'll just sum this up quickly: what the fuck is wrong with you?

[mnhtnbb]

96. Nothing is wrong with me. My sons won't be going off to join

an immoral war because they got bored with boozing and partying and dropped out of college and then
were surprised to see that war is hell and they were pawns of the oligarchic money machine--otherwise
known as the military industrial complex.

What the fuck is wrong with you that you aren't interested in another point of view?

Oh, I get it. superduperfarleft. Not really. Politically correct, yes.

[superduperfarleft]

98. Sure thing, Joan Rivers.

OMG LOOK AT WHAT SHES WEARING!!!111

[mnhtnbb]

103. It's naive to think that people don't respond to what a woman wears.

And that's my point.

And I'm not being sexist. We respond to men who are well-dressed, too. Appearances say something
about how a person views her/himself.

[krabigirl]

183. You have serious issues. Sorry, but this is completely ridiculous.

[mnhtnbb]

191. So say you. What a contemptuous thing to say. You don't know me at all.

[Downtown Hound]

193. Look, at this point, I'm just going to say to you

The longer you stay here and try and defend your comments, the bigger a hole you're digging for yourself. The only face saving thing you can do for yourself at this point is apologize for your lack of compassion. And if you cant do that, then it's really time for you to just shut up and let this thread die, and hope that when you return to posting again on other threads that people won't remember you or what you wrote here. You are doing yourself no favors by continuing this utter inanity.

[mnhtnbb]

196. I am not concerned about saving face. It's possible to have compassion and have questions.

The lack of courtesy to a fellow DU'er who has a different point of view is appalling.

I didn't tell the woman to fuck off. I didn't tell the woman she had issues. I didn't tell the woman
she lacked compassion. I didn't tell the woman she needed counseling.

Go back and read the all the threads, not just the subject line.

I am deeply concerned that given the environment of lies/deception and volunteer services, that all of us in this country--parents and communities--need to do something to educate and inform these young men and women BEFORE they sign up for the military about just what they are getting themselves into. It is naive to think that these young people can witness the hell and atrocities of war and not come back damaged. It is criminal to not provide adequate treatment for the soldiers who return.

That's it. I'm done. If anyone is owed an apology, it's to me from the many DU members on this board who have insulted me.

[Downtown Hound]

197. Dig...dig...dig. n/t

[Stargazer09]

76. And you have issues of your own

Including the need to scorn someone based on how they dress.

Shallow doesn't begin to describe the things that you are saying.

[mnhtnbb]

97. Oh, it's so much fun to insult a DU'er who's been around longer than you have.

Enjoying yourself?

[superduperfarleft]

100. I think most people are just shaking their heads in disbelief. n/t

[Stargazer09]

109. It is when you say stupid things

Like criticizing a grieving mother for the clothes that she's wearing.

Just because I don't live on DU doesn't mean that I haven't been here long. I have been following this website since its inception.

[Downtown Hound]

126. And I've been around longer than you.

But it really doesn't matter if you've been here one day or ten years. You're an idiot either way.

[Wind Dancer]

173. Pathetic!

I'm truly at a loss for words. If your initial response to this thread is the length of the Mother's skirt than YOU have serious issues. I actually feel sorry for snobby women like you that sit on your high horse judging others with your closed minded ideals of what's appropriate for other women.

Your length of time here is irrelevant but since you brought it up - I've been here longer than you and your comments are insensitive, judgmental and cold.

It's a shame we can't all live up to your expectations. :puke:

Her son just committed suicide so maybe she didn't give a rat's ass about her outfit. I know ........... I know........... something you could never imagine in your pompous little world.

Your husband's credentials are irrelevant, btw. You've attempted to analyze this young man and his family by a photo - there are no words!!

Please get some help!

[Forkboy]

180. I've been here longer than you, and you deserve all the shit your're getting.

This is some of the most inane shit I've seen in awhile.

[incapsulated]

205. I've got several years on you

You are repulsive and I don't care if you were here from day one.

[ironrooster]

78. I see what the poster is trying to get at

Alot (not all) but many of these parents don't have much of an education and
are (as are their children) incredibly naive about war. I think you are
speaking to the endemic adolescent attitudes among adults
present in our culture.

For everybody criticizing this poster
adolescent attitudes about war - politics - health care are
the REASON that Rush Limblow has an audience to begin with.

I think the poster speaking to a salient issue.

And yes, if you hang out with some middle age republican women in
Texas, you'll see many of them sporting too-short hemlines
because there is an inherent immaturity present.

[superduperfarleft]

82. So what age do you think it becomes necessary to start wearing a burqa?

Do you have an exact number, or do you and Joan Rivers up there make that determination on a case-by-case basis?

[mnhtnbb]

99. Why don't you ask Hillary when she stopped wearing mini-skirts?

Or Michelle, for that matter?

Dressing tastefully and appropriately for one's age is important for women who wish to be taken
seriously.

[superduperfarleft]

102. If you want to continue hijacking a thread about a soldier's suicide

by talking about his mother's fashion choices, feel free. I'm done.

[mnhtnbb]

105. I'm raising the issue of how and why that young man decided to become a soldier.

I knew I'd get flamed.


I saw something and raised some questions.

You know, a high school friend of mine committed suicide by jumping in front of a train
one week ago today. See my post.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/mnhtnbb/186

I've been thinking a lot about what brings people to suicide over the last week.

Thanks for your insulting comments. One other person in this thread made the effort
to see what I was trying to say. Maybe that has something to do with why people
do commit suicide. It's damned hard to get folks, even people who should be willing to listen,
to really listen and try to understand what someone is thinking or feeling.

So, I'm glad you're done. No worries. You joined the gang throwing stones at me and
registered your sympathy for the fallen warrior.

Have a happy evening.

[incapsulated]

207. Based on his grieving mother's jean skirt

What amazing powers you have.

[mnhtnbb]

94. Thank you. Nicely summarized.

[Quantess]

108. Perhaps women in TX wear short skirts because it's hot there, too?

Since when does a hemline indicate maturity?
I always thought hemlines indicate how much leg someone feels comfortable showing. Period.

[incapsulated]

206. Thank you Obi-wan

Can you also peer into my very soul by critiquing my choice in earrings, all seeing one?

[Hansel]

119. This woman in dressed perfectly appropriately.

Because she gets to decide how to dress in her own home, not you.

And OMG, you are psycho-analyzing her over a skirt that looks quite flattering on her?

Let me try: I bet this isn't the first time you have inappropriately focused on the hyper-superficial when discussing another person's pain and tragedy. Perhaps you do this because you are incapable of empathizing or too afraid to face trauma in your own life so instead have to focus on inanimate objects rather than emotions.

That's about as valid as your analysis of her because she wore a skirt you don't approve of. This woman is in pain and probably hasn't really thought a lot about her fashion choices lately.

One last point: Any professional involved with dressing the public would have the good sense to keep their mouth shut about how a grieving mother is dressed.

[omega minimo]

151. perfectly appropriate for a new, trendy, white, nouveau riche, VIP, Repuke, gated community full of

people pretending that Hollywood and 90210 came to Northern California.

(was Repuke redundant or an oxymoron?)

As much as people be hating it, the poster picked up on something that IS in fact, relevant to how these illegal meatgrinders get funded and filled with our youth.

[Downtown Hound]

154. You know, this really isn't the time for it

There's a time to question the war and the military industrial complex and how it gets people in its meat grinder, and there's a time when you're just being an insensitive asshat.

And I'm sorry, but this poster can't deduce everything she's deducing by one damn picture. The things she's accusing this woman of have far more to do with her own prejudices than with anything to do with reality. She hijacked a thread dealing with grief and pain and used it throw her own snobbish tirades in which she's essentially calling this family low class. A total cheap shot at a very vulnerable time. I shudder to think of what that mother would think if she were to read this thread. We don't need voices like hers representing the anti-war movement.

[omega minimo]

172. Agreed. And I hope more rich, suburban patriots hear anti-war protestors B4 the next illegal war

warn them to not support and not send their children.

The other reply doesn't understand that Granite Bay, a suburb of Sacramento, is as I've described. The people there are largely privileged, Republican, white, in a gated bubble.

Having warned against the war and hoped to prevent needless tragedies, including PSTD'd survivors, I hope that there comes a time when more military families understand that we "support the troops," by protesting when their lives are about to be squandered for lies.

:patriot:

[Downtown Hound]

174. I hope that day comes as well when military families will not view the anti-war movement

the way they do. But I know FOR CERTAIN that that day will not come anytime soon if those that protest the war can't put their personal feelings and politics aside and show compassion for a woman that just lost her child. They say there is no greater emotional pain one can feel than losing their child. Losing their child to suicide is probably a kick to the stomach on top of the one already administered to the groin. It's not too much to ask to spare the lectures for just one thread and offer up some sympathies for this human being in terrible pain.

By the way, I protested the war too. I've probably protested it more than a dozen times. Even got arrested, gassed, and pepper sprayed for it. And this story still brings tears to my eyes. Yeah, I wish more military families had listened to us. But the last thing in the world I'm ever going to do is use an opportunity like this to say, "See, I told you so. You should have listened to me."

[omega minimo]

194. I have already agreed with you. You are now the one at war.

My hope for "next time" was expressed due to the pain this causes all of us. As I have said in the thread, I foresaw the damage that would extend to the survivors. They (and their families) were a special concern, because on top of the other traumas, they would deal (or not) with being lied into war.

After writing "Agreed."...................... I attempted to make the post general enough to be clear that it was not directed at this family or an "I told you so."

[Quantess]

156. The gold star mother (but technically she isn't) lives in Sacramento, CA.

That is nowhere near Hollywood.

[WinkyDink]

163. Well, aren't you speshul?!

[RetroLounge]

84. What a stupid fucking thing to say...

:puke:

You're an asshat

RL

[kestrel91316]

90. I totally get what you are saying. And if she is ever

raped, we all get to say she deserved it, right???

:sarcasm:

[mnhtnbb]

95. No you don't. You don't get it at all.

[Daphne08]

93. Very Unkind Comment that is irrelevant. n/t

[QueenOfCalifornia]

104. Oy vey....

You are fucking kidding me.. right?

Made me think of this song:

I want to tell you all a story 'bout a Harper Valley widowed wife
Who had a teenage daughter who attended Harper Valley Junior High
Well her daughter came home one afternoon and didn't even stop to play
She said, "Mom, I got a note here from the Harper Valley P.T.A."

The note said, "Mrs. Johnson, you're wearing your dresses way too high
It's reported you've been drinking and a-runnin' 'round with men and going wild
And we don't believe you ought to be bringing up your little girl this way"
It was signed by the secretary, Harper Valley P.T.A.

Well, it happened that the P.T.A. was gonna meet that very afternoon
They were sure surprised when Mrs. Johnson wore her mini-skirt into the room
And as she walked up to the blackboard, I still recall the words she had to say
She said, "I'd like to address this meeting of the Harper Valley P.T.A."

Well, there's Bobby Taylor sittin' there and seven times he's asked me for a date
Mrs. Taylor sure seems to use a lot of ice whenever he's away
And Mr. Baker, can you tell us why your secretary had to leave this town?
And shouldn't widow Jones be told to keep her window shades all pulled completely down?

Well, Mr. Harper couldn't be here 'cause he stayed too long at Kelly's Bar again
And if you smell Shirley Thompson's breath, you'll find she's had a little nip of gin
Then you have the nerve to tell me you think that as a mother I'm not fit
Well, this is just a little Peyton Place and you're all Harper Valley hypocrites

No I wouldn't put you on because it really did, it happened just this way
The day my Mama socked it to the Harper Valley P.T.A.
The day my Mama socked it to the Harper Valley P.T.A.

[RandomKoolzip]

114. On a day when our government is doing some really dumb and insensitive things...

(eg DOMA, etc) A DUer decides to give them a run for their money.

Nice job! :thumbsup: Way to go, and way way WAY to miss the point.

[OhioBlue]

121. She probably doesn't even know what she is wearing

and yes... you are judging a book from its cover - which is wrong.

How about an entirely different take on the picture.

I see a mother who carried a son for 9 months, gave birth, loved, nurtured and cared for him. She has probably lived in fear since the day he joined the armed forces. But he was a man and she couldn't stop him. The day he left for basic training, the day he was called up, the day he left for Iraq, all days of hell for this young mother. then came the e-mail. She felt panic and scared. She couldn't reach him. She couldn't hug him, she couldn't help make things better. She couldn't imagine what emotional harm her son was going through and wanted so much to hold him in her arms.

Then he came home, was depressed, not himself. She lived with sadness and constantly tying to help him. But she didn't know how to help her son. No kiss, no ice cream cone, no band-aid was going to help. She tried and tried, she woke up every morning trying to help and went to sleep every night worried about him.

Now he is gone and she is immersed in grief, she is beside herself, doesn't even know what day it is. She can hardly get out of bed and face the world. Her daughter tries to help and says "Mom, you will look pretty in this". She says "thank you honey" and gets dressed and tries to face the day.

Bottom line, she just lost her son. That is what she is dealing with. Who gives a fuck what she is wearing. She is a human being, dealing with the hardest thing any parent would ever have to experience. She is in fucking hell right now. My thoughts and condolences to her and her family.

[omega minimo]

152. or your seeing a rich Republican snob who spit on people who protested the war

:think: when there is a "next time" will the rich Republicans remember this tragedy as we who protest ahead of time do?

Or will it happen all over again, decade after decade?

[chrisa]

122. Well, that really doesn't matter now.

Because he's dead, and know-it-all posters like you judge them based on one photo. Get a grip.

[Javaman]

124. you are now blocked.nt

[tuckessee]

130. You're probably right. n/t

[demwing]

165. From a picture, one can choose to judge - OR

one can choose to keep still

It's your choice, based on your ideas concerning what qualifies as acceptable behavior. Obviously, for you, its acceptable to make snap judgements and condemn people based on superficial observations.

[mnhtnbb]

168. Or one can ask questions.

I figured a lot of people wouldn't get it. I was surprised
to see the name calling, though. I was so struck by the picture--not only the fact that mother and daughter were mirroring each other
in stance, but that the mother was dressed the way I'd expect to see the daughter dressed.

I'm a visual person. I act. In fact, I'm getting ready to do
a short play where a mother makes up stories about all the action
her son has seen in WW II, to make the fading grandmother proud
and involved with life. It's a comedy, but I always create a back story for characters I play, which includes how they are dressed.

People make choices. There were clues in the story about the suicide
that mom thought he'd be safe once he was home. How does somebody come to believe that? The divorce raised questions. The estrangement from his father raised questions. What was going on in the family?

As I said in my post #107, I had a high school friend, a 57 year old woman who spent her life caring and helping others, jump in front of a train a week ago. Her family was stunned. No indication she was upset about anything the night before. One has to believe she had been planning it for some time, too.

How do such different people come to commit suicide? There are so many questions.

For the soldier, I don't think the answer is simply he went to war and saw hell; let's blame Bush. As long as we have a volunteer army, I think you have to ask more questions and I think we are all, as a country, complicit if we aren't making sure that these young kids find out what they are really getting themselves into--and that has to start with parental and community insistence that the recruiting is not limited to fairy tales about adventure and deeds of glory and a path to a steady job when you come home.

Two people have PM'd me that they get the issues of what I was trying to raise for discussion.
I'm glad I got through to them.

[tree207]

177. Perceptions from a photograph

My thoughts are that the mother has just finished a long shift as a waitress were that skirt is part of her uniform.

She has just lost a child and needs to comfort her other child who is also clearly in distress. But a part of her has ceased, never to be again, never to talk to her or to a surviving part of her, his sister.

You are not people of compassion.

During the Vietnam War I knew a fellow soldier who said that the hardest duty he ever undertook was to accompany the caskets back home. Often he was under orders to not allow sealed coffins to ever be opened. When he returned from such a detail nothing was said of his absence while he drank himself into oblivion.

[mnhtnbb]

185. Well, your perceptions are wrong. A little googling reveals Ms. Hogue

lives in a home valued at $611,500 (down from a high in the $800,000's before real estate market
meltdown in CA) and is the owner of Aquatique Pool Service in Granite Bay.

A waitress, she isn't.

Unlike NC where I live, party affiliation records in California are not open--at least that I could find.
But, the registration of Republicans to Democrats in Granite Bay is 2/1. I checked for political donations and didn't find any.

Did she support Bush? I don't know. Does it mean she feels the loss of her son any more than Cindy
Sheehan. I doubt it.

I'm just asking questions. The article tells me that she had naive expectations to think her son
could go off to war and be okay after he came home. Where did she get that idea?

Is it sad this young man went to war and came home so damaged that he committed suicide? Yes.
To me, although obviously not to all the DU'ers throwing stones and insulting me, it's not wrong
to be curious how a 19 yo, in college, would quit and go off to war and not expect that he might come home
haunted by what he experiences.

If we are ever going to turn off the supply of young men and women willing to become cannon fodder
so the oligarchs can make money off of war, we have to figure out how to stop them from signing
up. That's what is motivating my questions.

The article doesn't say the family did everything possible to keep him from going; it doesn't say
that serving is a tradition in the family; it doesn't say why a kid with everything going for him (apparently) chooses to enlist during a war of lies and deceptions.

I was shocked by the picture and it made me start asking questions.

[Forkboy]

179. It might time for you to seek counseling.

[mnhtnbb]

186. Ha Ha. I have built in counseling from my psychiatrist/psychoanalyst hubby

Major, USAF retired. Twenty years service in the VA system.

[Forkboy]

187. It isn't working.

[mnhtnbb]

189. Very funny.

[krabigirl]

181. Wow, what an enlightened thing to say! ugh.

[omega minimo]

202. It appears she may be wearing shorts.

[Swamp Rat]

23. .

:cry:

[Hubert Flottz]

29. What has trickled down from the Reich Wing is

a river of tears.

[leftofthedial]

27. who are we?

and what have we done?

:cry:

[JNelson6563]

30. I have no words.

:cry:

[dotymed]

32. HOW

can President Obama not prosecute the MONSTERS RESPONSIBLE for
this?

[LooseWilly]

43. Apparently it would be unethical for him to exert any influence on the DoJ...

[omega minimo]

153. Perhaps it would be unethical for Pelosi to take Impeachment Off The Table

[Juan_de_la_Dem]

42. Very sad

[Echo In Light]

44. Sacrifice

Sacrifice, by Melvins

Can't you hear the war cry?
It's time to enlist
The people speak as one
The cattle, the crowd
Those too afraid to live
Demand a sacrifice of your life

Can't you smell their stinking breath?
Listen to them
Wheezing and gasping and
Chanting their slogans
It's a grave digger's song
Praising God and state
So the nation will live
So we all can be as cattle
They Demand a sacrifice of your life

Can't you smell the fresh blood
Steaming into the soil
As our patriots
Fathers and mothers and lovers
Admire the military style
Praising Gog and the state
Crying tears of pride
For the sons and lovers
For all the fools slaughtered
For the maimed, the dying
And the dead
So the nation will live
So we all can remain as cattle

They demand a sacrifice
They demand a sacrifice
They demand a sacrifice
Of your life

[omega minimo]

46. So the next time we march to prevent illegal war and this very tragedy

will the rich folk of Granite Bay drive by in their luxury Hummers and sneer and shout at us?

:patriot:

[Wednesdays]

47. K&R

:kick:

[MrMickeysMom]

48. When is enough enough?

We must exit. We're managing to KILL, MANGLE and TORMENT another entire generation of young soldiers.

Look under your bridges, and in your homeless shelters.... This has to STOP.

[grahamhgreen]

49. Can we leave the mid-east now? Or must we kill more? FYI - more Vietnam vets commited suicide than

died in Vietnam....

RIP.

[TerryRay]

61. That is a myth

has not been even close to being proved

http://www.vwam.com/client/contentclient.php?intIdContent=15

[PSzymeczek]

113. One was too many. n/t

[BobRossi]

50. Why does Obama perpetuate these things?

Get the fuck out of Iraq now!

[bertman]

53. Today the Obama administration threatened the freshmen Democrats who are voting AGAINST

the war appropriations bill that "they would never hear from them again." Meaning that they will not get any support from the President in their re-election bids.

This senseless death of this young man is a direct result of that kind of POLITICAL PRESSURE being put on our representatives WHO WANT TO STOP THIS WAR BUT ARE GETTING PRESSURED TO CONTINUE IT BY OUR FRICKING PRESIDENT. These people were elected to serve their constituents and vote on their behalf. Their constituents want US OUT OF IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN, but our President wants us there.

These wars will never end until our representatives and Senators stand up to the President and the Military-Industrial-Corporate Complex and SAY NO MORE!!!

This whole situation is so sad and so infuriating. Our government has gone so far off the rails it is scary.

Recommend this OP.

[omega minimo]

54. Like Kucinich said, "Who ARE these people"?

:evilfrown: another generation, another meatgrinder, another dead, maimed and mindfucked youth........

[BobRossi]

57. "Change"

My ass!

[Enthusiast]

160. +1, Infuriating is the word. nt

[flvegan]

59. "Please know that I am happy, finally"

Bring them home, Obama.

[democrank]

67. Rest in peace, Trevor Hogue.

Rest in precious peace.

[Union Yes]

73. War is evil. It can and does destroy the minds of our soldiers.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

75. SImilar story here in my town recently, very very sad

http://girightsnews.blogspot.com/2009/05/awol-soldier-shoots-himself-on-west.html

on edit: Read this story about it instead, explains that he probably killed himself because he couldn't control his aggression: http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_12538827

[CLANG]

77. I feel sad, dejected, morose, and without hope.

I'm NOT going to cry!

[MasonJar]

80. tHE IraQ War of choice has killed 100s of 1000s of Iraqis (7 year old children shot on

their own roofs where they sleep due to no electricity to cool the house) (babies and grandparents killed at a check point- a 3 year old's head blown off) (an Iraqi mother finding her 20 year daughter with no head) (a daughter raped and murdered, her sister and parents killed)and 100s of American soldiers (as the one above.) These suicides would not have happened without Bush and his war of choice. It is time too for Obama to get out of this cragmire.

[Dystopian]

81. I feel like it will never end.....

This rips my heart out.
Another casualty of war.
The father of my children was a casualty of the Vietnam war in 1992.
PTSD...it never ends.
My heart goes out to his family...life will never be the same.

RIP Trevor Hogue


peace~

[mtf80123]

86. I hate these fucking wars!

GET OFF YOUR ASS OBAMA!!!! And end them NOW!!!!

[Hekate]

87. Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney -- I sometimes wish they would go that Hell they claim to believe in...

... this is one of those times.

That photo of his mother and sister is the very image of Grief personified. :cry:

Hekate

[KQ9]

91. YATF (Yet another torn family)

RIP :(

Families in Iraq and America are both getting torn apart because of what the old people orders to fight their wars...

[BrklynLiberal]

92. THIS is the legacy of George W. Bush and his policies!!!!

There are no words to express the sadness I feel about this boy and his family...and all those that preceded him...and sadly, those that will follow him.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Mike 03]

101. The pathetic thing is that this story is news to anyone. NT

[zeemike]

110. Soldier in all wars wittiness atrocious things.

But there is a difference between then (like WW2) and now.
In WW2 no one felt that the enemy deserved to be slaughtered and punished, and no one thought they were doing a great thing by killing.
Now it is all diferent...blowing someone away is considered heroic if it is the bad guy...and all the dark skin people must be bad guys.
And we even refer to the dead among our troops as "fallen heroes" and when they come home we must honer them as heroes or be accused of not supporting the troops.
The truth is that we have destroyed the term hero and forced our young into a conflict of morality...and it is showing.

[4lbs]

137. You wanna bet?

"In WW2 no one felt that the enemy deserved to be slaughtered and punished, and no one thought they were doing a great thing by killing."


You haven't seen all of the 1940s propaganda that was made about why US troops were in Europe and the Pacific.

I have the old "Why We Fight" and related 'documentaries' from Frank Capra (of "It's a Wonderful Life" fame) on DVD. In them it was argued that killing Germans and Japanese was good and necessary to preserve humanity.

They even won him an Academy Award and he considers this set of propaganda his best work, not his classic films we all love.

Capra was a life-long Republican, staunchly anti-Communist, and supported Senator Joe McCarthy's witch hunt against suspected Communists in America.

[zeemike]

157. Oh yes I am aware of the propaganda films of the 40s

When I was in the navy in the 60s I had access to the film library for the training command and on my duty hours I used to watch movies to pass the time.
I probably saw them all including the ones on venereal disses.
And the one that stands out the most to me now was a propaganda film that showed the difference between the communist and us...and that difference was that the commies believed that the end justifies the means....well we have now accepted that communist principles.
But that is not the point...the point is that the average young man entering the service had moral values and knew that killing was wrong and took no pleasure in doing it. I had 2 brothers in WW2 and my father was in WW1. And none of them thought themselves heroes or talked about what they saw and what they did.
And they did not mistreat their prisoners or talk and brag about how they killed.
It is the moral values of the average person that has changed. And our media is responsible for that change.

[defendandprotect]

118. "War is hell" . . . and the longer we continue to embrace it the longer

we will remain there --

The Pentagon, the Military, the Congress that funds these wars, the Corporate-press --

DON'T CARE about these individuals nor their families. How could that not be clearer????

Tell me how Pelosi has slept at night for the last two years of re-funding these wars?

Tell me how Obama sleeps now furthering and continuing these wars of aggression on

innocent people?

Today's weapons are also causing injuries that most of the American public have never seen

before. I came upon a website recently and I was astonished. I think we should put up

some of these pictures .... just in the "pro-life" sense!!!

Maybe we can save some other young men and women from having to throw their lives away

in wars???

[DearAbby]

125. my heart aches.........n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

143. KICK AND RECOMMEND!!!

[proud patriot]

155. no words

:cry:

[WinkyDink]

161. "Now watch this drive."

[omega minimo]

195. "Impeachment is Off The Table"

[tocqueville]

166. there is something "deadly" wrong with the US soldier of today

and this is not a blame on the individual who is innocent in this process

The vets that today come and mourn their mates in Normandy saw far worse atrocities at Omaha beach and in other places. The death toll was horrible compared to today. If wounded their chances of survival were minimal due to the at that time limited (compared to today) skills in medecine, their protective equipment inexistant and they had a far heavier gear to carry. Those who survived were surely profoundly marked by the events, but when back in the US started a new life, job, married and lived long sometimes in excellent health to old age. The vast majority of them weren't super-trained killing machines, but ordinary conscripts.

They didn't commit suicide, they got over it and went on. Of course there were those that didn't cope, but not with the figures of today.

why is that ?

I don't think that it has to to do with the concept of a "just war". The GIs of 44 were fighting fascism and knew it, but the ones of 2003 thought they were defending America against terrorism, even if they had been conned into it, the cause was just in their eyes. It can have influenced them when they came back (a bit like Vietnam) and discovered they had been lied to, but not initially.

In my opinion the causes are elsewhere

1) they have been living an "easy life" (at least for most of them) before joining, compare with people that were hardened growing up in a Depression.
2) they have been brought up by a videogame war where the good ones always win and a bullet in the leg is a scratch
3) they have been brought up with a myth of infallibility and invincibility
4) they have been brought up with a myth of a war with zero casualties on their side
5) their drill doesn't admit temporary failure, fear, expressions of weakness as a part of the experience. Or else you are labeled as a "coward".
6) their leadership is often incompetent, even down to officer level
7) the use of unnecessary force towards the enemy and the collateral damage that follows, skews the human perspective. If you laugh watching a video of a poor crawling idiot blown to pieces by a drone and see him as junk, you're gonna blow a fuse when the same thing happens to your mate, that time as the result of a crude device.

The GIs of 44 arrived deadly afraid, did in their pants and vomited their guts of sea-sickness. But they won. The GIs of 2003 arrived with AC, home-made hamburgers, night vision and "shiny" armour. They lost.

no wonder that they get screwed up back home.

[tree207]

175. Hiding of WWII neuropsychiatric casualties

The public perception of the number of neuropsychiatric cases of the Second World War was dimmed by intentional and unintentional policy.

The Federal Government provided compensation to various hospices, boarding houses, and other facilities that lodged or provided care for veterans who were not capable of providing their own domicile.

Most of these places were hidden in plain sight, overlooked by their fellow citizens preoccupied with the demands of their own lives. Often the supervisory responsibilities were performed by religious based social workers and so the reports were not in the federal domain and so not as visible to easy perception or public reference.

Many of these veterans died of what is now called substance abuse or of the accumulations of health problems caused by the demands made upon bodies malnourished by the long periods of military service and the loss of economic participation due to the inability to sustain employment.

Other veterans dealt with their issues silently because to admit to having psychiatric problems caused great economic penalties. They worked hard then came home and drank or they provided economically for their families but were not there emotionally. Others did not achieve what their talents justified for they could not shed the ever present dread of their experiences.

The cultural norms were different then, but the reactions of human beings to the stressors of war
were not.

[omega minimo]

201. My post echoes yours (which I just read)

Into the 90's, the "bums" on the benches downtown were still living in WWII in their minds and talking to the sky about it. They're gone now. So are the SRO's they lived in due to gentrification. Where will the Gulf War II PTSD vets live?

[tocqueville]

203. I agree with that but I am talking about patterns

In a 2008 poll by the American Psychological Association (APA), 61 percent of servicemen and women said that asking for help to treat psychological problems would have a negative impact on their career, and 53 percent said it would decrease their status among their peers.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gOEDhkP9VVYuG0sPh4b3QJTRCNHA

even if the statistics from WWII are not reliable (no statistics on suicides for example) and probably underrated, today it seems to be 22% among Iraq/Afghan vets, at Vietnam level.

DoD - General and Mental Health

Troops receiving pre-deployment mental health assessment by professional (DoD is mandated by congress to assess all deploying troops): 1-in-300
Army/Air Force required pre/post-deployment health assessment failure rate, GAO: 38-98% (depending upon base)
Army/Air Force required immunization failure rate, GAO: 14-46%
Troops seeking help for emotional issues returned back to units: 98%
Troops referred for follow-up care after flagging by DoD for PTSD: 22%
Troops kept on duty despite showing significant psychological distress pre-suicide, 2004-2005: at least 11


DoD - Mental Health, Caregivers

Navy psychologist positions filled: 72% (85% including trainees)
Navy psychiatrist positions filled: 62% (91% including trainees)
Army psychiatrist/psychologist positions filled: 80-85%
Portion of mental healthcare professionals not trained/supervised in four PTSD therapies recommended by the Pentagon and VA: 90%
Deployed Army mental health providers, reporting high burnout/low motivation or morale, 2005: 1-in-3
Behavioral-health workers (counselors/psychiatrists), high/very high burnout: 33%
...primary-care specialists (doctors and nurses): 45%
...chaplains: 27%


DoD - Discharge, Personality Disorder

Troops discharged with PD since 2003, Army: 4,092
Troops discharged with PD since 2003, non-Army: 11,296
Briefest Fort Carson PD diagnosis evaluation length: 10-20 mins.
Military psychologist signatures required for PD discharge: 1 (PTSD needs medical review board)
Processing of paperwork duration: a couple of days (PTSD, several months)
VA disability benefits PD-diagnosed combat vet eligible for: 0%


Walter Reed

Year Walter Reed Army Medical Center opened: 1909
Portion of wounded OEF/OIF troops treated at Walter Reed: 1-in-4
BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) scheduled for Walter Reed: 2011
Rate at which oupatient troops in limbo outnumber hospital patients: 17-to-1
Average outpatient soldier stay: 10 months (some stuck as long as 2 yrs.)
Walter Reed troops saying their outpatient experience was "stressful:" 75%
...saying that Army literature on navigating outpatient process is helpful: 12%
Current outpatient soldiers waiting on Medical Evaluation Board processing (1st stage of process; 2nd stage is the Physical Evaluation Board): 704
...highest level of waiting outpatients, summer of 2005: nearly 900
Time MEB process should take, start-to-finish: 120 days
...average at Walter Reed: 270 days
Time to wade through both MEB and PEB processes: 9 to 15 1/2 months
Federal employees providing facilities management services, pre-2007: 300
...providing above services day before outsourcing went into effect: 60
...private workers replacing above workers on February 3, 2007: 50

http://ptsdcombat.blogspot.com/2007/03/war-list-oefoif-statistics.html

those are terrible figures for wars that had under 8-5 years a casualty level equivalent to the single D-Day landing at Omaha.

[omega minimo]

200. Good points, great post. And please don't forget that those men also

closed down emotionally to a large degree. That generation "sucked it up" and got on with life and also internalized a lot of their pain, didn't talk about the war much, didn't talk much at all. (An overgeneralization that is also true).

The survivor guilt of the ones who couldn't "get on with life" destroyed their lives and health. They were the "bums" aka homeless and drunks on our streets and in SRO's which now have been purged from gentrifying downtowns.

Thank you for your post. And your service. :patriot:

[a la izquierda]

169. Oh my word, that is so sad.

I am about as detached as I can be on a daily basis...but this deeply affected me. How terribly sad for his family.

[JustJeking]

176. RIP Hogue

and to the many men and women who gave up their lives in Bush's/Cheney's wars. So sad and unnecessary.

[AlCzervik]

184. a thread about a soldier who committed suicide turns into a flame war over a mini skirt

some of you really need a head check.

[incapsulated]

208. No, we don't

Only the asshole bringing it up and attacking a grieving mother for it does.

Unless we are supposed to give that shit a pass?

[spanone]

188. bu$h* LIED us into this horrific, unnecessary war....there must be consequences

:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:

there were consequences for Army Spc. Trevor Hogue...

[omega minimo]

198. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5832304&mesg_id=5841954

[Initech]

199. Holy shit! That is fucked up!

[JackDragna]

204. This death won't end up in casualty stats..

..but it's a war death, just the same..and as equally tragic and senseless as the rest.