Wide Passengers Don't Sit Well With Airlines

[question everything]

JUNE 9, 2009

Wide Passengers Don't Sit Well With Airlines
By SCOTT MCCARTNEY
WSJ

The scales have tipped against oversized airline passengers, much to the glee of some frequent fliers. As travelers complain about losing any of the scant 17 inches of width they get in many coach seats, airlines are increasingly trying to force "passengers of size" to buy an extra seat when they fly. Earlier this year, UAL Corp.'s United Airlines joined Southwest Airlines Co. and several other carriers in implementing a formal policy to get obese customers into two seats instead of trying to shoehorn them into one.

(snip)

Frequent travelers and advocates for the obese would like to see airlines offer a few rows of wider coach seats and charge extra -- just as they do with rows of expanded legroom. Instead of six seats across a typical single-aisle plane, why not have four or five seats and charge 50% extra on a coach fare? That's still a lot less than first-class prices, and perhaps an effective way for airlines to meet a customer need while boosting revenue at the same time. "We're willing to pay for what we are rightfully using," says Peggy Howell, spokeswoman for the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance. Buying two seats is a bad solution because of safety issues with seatbelts and comfort issues with armrests that don't fully retract, she notes. Plus, most people don't need two full seats. "What we really need are seats half-again as wide," she says. "Legroom is fine for nice tall men but does nothing for fat passengers who are being imposed on right now."

United, which offers extra legroom in "Economy Plus" rows to frequent fliers and customers who pay extra, says it will review the wide-seat idea. JetBlue Airways, another airline that sells extra legroom to customers, says it hasn't considered selling extra-wide seats. JetBlue does note that its Airbus A320 aircraft have wider cabins than the comparably sized Boeing 737, so seats are more than 18 inches wide, compared with 17 inches for Boeing 737 and 757 jets. "This is one of the reasons we chose the A320," a JetBlue spokesman says.

The tight squeeze of seats on Boeing single-aisle jets has been an issue for decades. In the 1950s, a Harvard University study of New England passenger trains concluded that the minimum acceptable seat width was 18 inches, and that was the norm on most passenger aircraft. But in 1954 the Boeing 707 was designed with a cabin allowing only 17-inch wide coach seats, needing the narrow body to give the plane the speed and range to fly coast-to-coast. Boeing stuck with that layout for the 737 and 757 jets, despite complaints that coach seats were too narrow; widening aircraft adds weight and makes jets more expensive to fly. The first 737s were originally designed for short trips, so tight seating was considered adequate. Later versions had better wings and engines for longer range -- and the same 17-inch seats. There's been no accommodation for wider passengers since.

(snip)

If a passenger doesn't fit into the confines of his or her seat, United can force the oversized customer to leave the plane and wait for another flight with two empty seats side-by-side. If the traveler doesn't want to wait on the standby list for two empty seats, United will sell a second seat at the same ticket price the customer paid... Southwest has had a similar policy since the 1980s. "Customers of size," in Southwest parlance, can book two seats online by repeating the passenger's name with XS as a middle name for the second seat. At check-in, the customer gets a boarding pass, a Reserved Seat document to block other passengers from the extra seat during open boarding and a form for a refund if the plane doesn't oversell and the airline doesn't bump passengers.


(snip)


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124450530210396091.html (subscription)

Printed in The Wall Street Journal, page D1

And a companion story to the airlines shrinking leg rooms

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5791908

[Lance_Boyle]

1. "fat passengers who are being imposed on right now"

Thanks to the few airlines who properly decided to impose on them instead of allowing them to overflow the armrests and impose on the rest of us for the same price we paid.

[conscious evolution]

2. They don't sit well with me either.

I have been squeezed between the hull and seriously obese people spilling over into my seat too many times.
I paid for the whole seat and I damned well want to be able to use the whole seat.

[Dorian Gray]

5. I agree

however the seats are too small.

[MadHound]

7. The problem isn't the size of the person,

It's the fact that airlines are squeezing us into tighter and tighter spaces. I imagine that I would also put the squeeze on you, being as that I'm 6'5", 260 non-fat pounds. I've pretty much given up flying unless it is an emergency, going overseas, or going first class simply because the seat is too damn small for somebody my size.

Twenty years ago they made seats that were reasonably tolerable, even for large people like myself. But since then the airlines have shrunk leg and seat room to the point where even a midget would have trouble fitting.

[question everything]

19. And why rely on 1950s standards?

all of us have changed. I doubt that any other items - clothing, furnitures, car seats - still use the measurements that were used in the 50s. How many airlines executives would fit into items that were made in the 50s?

[Hekate]

40. That's the problem--in the 1950s-60s airlines allotted MORE room per passenger than they do now

Ergonomically, this is just insane.

It's SO EASY to lay it on the obese, thus making sure that the fight is carried out between the victims (i.e. passenger versus passenger) rather than pointing back to the real culprits: greedy airline execs who don't give a damn if any of us gets a blood clot while they squeeze us for room, instruct us to sit still, and contemplate charging for even water. This is a health issue for every member of the flying public.

Hekate

[lovepg]

10. Why not a height requirement?...

Ever sit in front of a guy with his knees jammed into the back of your seat so you cannot put your seat back?
Why should I have to listen to screaming babies? I don't have kidsand no one forces you to have one you know. Just like no one forces you to be obese.
Where does this thinking stop?

[Retrograde]

52. and shoulder width!

I can get my hips into a normal airline seat, but my shoulders always bump into the person next to me. Three wide-shouldered people in a row doesn't make for a pleasant flight.

OTOH, being short-legged I always have plenty of leg room.

[Caoimhe]

11. I am glad you don't have issues with size

My husband is 6'9 and public transportation is largely unbearable for him. Must be nice to have everything fit you so well. I'm sure the fat person next to you got fat on purpose just to ruin your flight.

Jesus, why is it still ok to discriminate against people based on their weight/height? Oh yeah, please... if you bought a ticket and got a seat on a flight, and you can't get your seat to go back, why not look behind you and realize that the "thing" preventing it from moving might actually be someone's knees. Idiots like that have crushed my kneecaps many times, and I'm only 6'1". I suppose if you are tall or fat, you really should just try to make more money so you can afford first class, right?

[lovepg]

13. Read my entire post i am on your side!

[Caoimhe]

15. I know.. I was replying to the same post you were replying to

great minds :)

[lovepg]

3. And slave ships used to refuse to load on tall slaves....

Because they could fit two or three slaves in there spot on the ship and make more money on the sale.
Maybe doctors should only see easy to diagnose and treat cases because they can see twice as many patients
and make way more money.
Bullet trains anyone? How about a little free market competition?

[dysfunctional press]

50. "Bullet trains anyone? How about a little free market competition?"

if you want 'free market competition' from bullet trains- why don't you aquire the land, lay the tracks, build the trains, and start selling tickets? :shrug:

[scheming daemons]

4. Amen.

[sui generis]

6. in that case I wouldn't mind sitting next to someone

if they had two seats for one butt, provided there wasn't overflow.

I know obese people have to travel too, but I have not flown a single Dallas flight coming or going that didn't have at least one person in my row barely able to get a seatbelt closed, with the seatbelt extension! When you're on a long flight or would like to recline your seat or even just use ONE of your armrests, it's really intrusive to have someone else's body intrude into your active space.

Worst of all, with few exceptions i have seen these same people pull out spare sandwich, bag of Cheetos, junk food, bags of candy - just continue feeding the entire flight.

That's not a hormone problem for the 1 in a thousand that can genuinely make the claim.

[Missy Vixen]

61. Oh, really?

>with few exceptions i have seen these same people pull out spare sandwich, bag of Cheetos, junk food, bags of candy - just continue feeding the entire flight.<

I flew out of Dallas two years ago after a professional conference. I refused the meal, and I've done it multiple times before. The tray doesn't work for me, and I don't like inconveniencing the person sitting next to me. If the tray doesn't work, I'm certainly not going to be spending my time "feeding". I might also mention that I was in first class on miles.

Keep piling on the stereotypes. The fat just can't get enough of them.

[sui generis]

96. The world can be more than black and white

at the same time.

Some of the stereotypes reported are reported based on personal experience. I'm sorry if that makes a stereotype, but that's also the way it is.

I understand that life puts people wherever they end up - if that means not taking care of one's health for whatever reason, being overweight is NOT HEALTHY. There are some choices involved in almost every out of control waistline. For many people that entire waistline IS a choice. If we can't talk about it, we may as well not talk about people who are gambling addicts or cocaine addicts or sex addicts either because we might trigger some stereotype.

I also realize that even people committed to reducing their physical size to near normal are faced with incredible challenges, both in staying on course, and in achieving that goal, and they still need to travel.

For the most part, being polite doesn't make up for overflowing the seat rests - it's not the polite person that gets remembered in the experience. It's also not safe - think about reduced mobility in the event of an emergency airplane evacuation. It's not about "hating" a generic group of people because they're overweight - it's about how overweight people impact the environment around them. It is not and should not be the norm.

[dflprincess]

8. "United will sell a second seat at the same ticket price the customer"

So, if the plane is not full & a second seat is available, why charge for it if no one else is going to be using it? I understand charging if it's a flight that's full (or usually full) and the passenger needs two seats, but why can't the get a refund if it turns out there is extra room?

[sui generis]

9. now just hope they assign the seats together . . .

[AnnieBW]

90. Because United nickels and dimes you to death

I prefer Southwest's policy. If there's a full flight, charge me for it. Or sit a kid next to me. Unfortunately, when I fly on business, it's usually those rat-bastards at United.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. The airlines are in the space rental business

They rent space on their airplanes and then promise to do their best to get the airplane from the place where one boards it to the place where one deplanes.

Everything else that is entailed in air travel is an add-on.

First class seats are actually little more than an inflated rent. Each seat is 50% larger than a coach seat, but the upcharge to fly first, and get the better meals and the free drinks, is more than that - and is all profit.

If a person actually occupies more than a standard coach seat, it seems only fair to charge for that if the alternative is to encroach on another's rented space.

It is my view that, back when seats had more room associated with them, we could get away with no upcharge. But as space per seat is decreasing, something needs to be done.

I would prefer we make seat size a minimum. back in the GOOD old days, the airlines were regulated. Some regulation is good.

[lovepg]

16. Just fly small people!

Imagine the profits. Then you could make the seats smaller again and cram even more people On!

[Hannah Bell]

21. just make a steerage section, you can pack them in like this:

[lovepg]

36. And in the case of emergency...

The cannon can be used as a flotation device. LOL!!!

[Caoimhe]

22. I can see it now

Midget airlines. Tickets cheaper. The bins overhead could be replaced with a whole 'nother rack of seats. Flight attendants would be required to be able to lift at least 100 lbs over their heads to place the little people in their seats. The smaller lungs would require less air. Just think of the savings!

[Gormy Cuss]

37. What needs to be done is a revolt by customers on the issue of ever-decreasing seat pitch

.. once the pitch is back to a 33" minimum then the airlines can start charging extra for passengers who can't sit comfortably in the standard width seats. I refuse to buy into the "fairness" argument used to to pit passengers against each other when the real issue is airline cost-cutting measures gone too far. I'm not a bottom feeder on fares -- I'm willing to pay what it costs to fly if everyone else is paying the same. Trains and buses have published fares and discounts without the complex pricing algorithms and they manage to make it work. Perhaps if the airline industry adopted a similar structure they'd do alright too.

At 17" wide, those seats are on the slim side for dining room chairs but of course at the table we're not sharing arm rests with our neighbors and we can adjust the position of our chairs relative to the table's edge too.

Ugh. I'm getting cranky on this topic because I'll be flying again in a couple of weeks. The only saving grace in this weak economy is that I've now had adjacent empty middle seats on more flights.

[Stinky The Clown]

57. I'm with you.

My post was how the airlines see it .... not a defense of the policy. I think the airlines are awful and getting worse. I will do almost anything to avoid flying.

I hate the airlines.

I hate the crotch sniffing branch of the TSA.

I hate anyone who wishes to see the TSA continue in the business of crotch sniffing.

[MADem]

14. Why make them pay fifty percent more? Why not make a few rows a third bigger,

and charge them a third extra? I'll bet people who just want a little more space would buy those, even if they didn't "need" them.

Frankly, I don't know many people, fat, thin, or "of average weight and height" who feel comfortable in the airline seats of today. They're like petit-torture devices, with no legroom and no room to wiggle about.

[Hannah Bell]

17. fat people cause global warming, too. they use more than their share of the earth's resources.

unlike the folks who write these crap articles.

[Vickers]

18. Man, that sucks, but I once flew a transatlantic flight next to a very large

woman who was spreading over into my seat, and it was horrible. Right around 9 hours of trying to contort my body so that we could somehow coexist.

To top it off, she was drinking red wine and spilled a bunch of it on me.

Lovely.

[Caoimhe]

23. I'm sure she enjoyed it just as much as you

:sarcasm:

[Vickers]

27. Actually, I think she was oblivious to the whole thing.

She was playing the comedy channel and yukking it up almost the whole way (she spilled her wine on me when a particularly large guffaw got away from her).

But thanks for the :sarcasm:, friend!

:hi:

[lovepg]

28. How about banning babies on flights?

Why should i have to put up with a screaming poop smelling drooling snot ridden thing next to me on my flight?
It sucks. Lets ban the flautulant as well. Or those with excessive perfume.
Wanna keep going?

[Vickers]

32. The last person I flew with who smelled like poop was a middle-aged man.

:rofl:

Oh wait...was that you?

:blush:

[lovepg]

34. No it wasn't...

But lets by all means ban middle aged men from flights.
Oh wait they have PRIVATE JETS!!!!

[Vickers]

38. Yes, all middle-aged men have private jets!

:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:

Oh, and welcome to DU yadda yadda yadda...

[lovepg]

42. Emoticons...

The sure sign of intelligence!

[Vickers]

44. Awwww, couldn't think of a decent rejoinder?

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[lovepg]

46. Damn ...

Why couldn't I have thought of using all those emoticons.
You got me!

[Vickers]

49. See, *there's* the spirit! Now I can turn those frowns

upside down!

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Oh, and if you were that fat woman on the Lufthansa flight with me, you also smelled weird.

[Caoimhe]

35. Sure

I don't wish to fly next to people with halitosis, excessive sweating issues, people who get up constantly to use the restroom, and those who get even the slight bit nauseated during a flight. I don't even want to think about the use of a barf bag anywhere in the plane. Plus I really hate the people that do the crossword puzzles in the In Flight magazines. Maybe pens/pencils should be banned. Funny hats. Also, people who want to talk. Flying is a torture, don't make it worse by laughing, talking, arguing, sneezing, yawning, or snoring.

[lovepg]

39. How about an airline that bans people?

Oh yeah we already have UPS! LOL!

[Vickers]

43. You forgot the people with stupid ringtones who turn on their phones

as soon as the wheels touch the runway.

I swear, the first time I heard a Harry Potter ringtone, I almost went on a rampage.

:P

[lovepg]

47. Or how about people..

Who carry on smelly ethnic food?
Why should i sit next to that?

[Vickers]

51. Yeah, like that scottish crap...

...bacon cheeseburgers.

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:
:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:
:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:
:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:
:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:
:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:

[question everything]

55. Just be glad cell phones are banned

Yes, they voted on this last year.

[ShortnFiery]

48. Oh man, excessive perfume!?! I'd perfer the scent of a good deodorant soap.

:silly:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

87. I'm down with having a babies only section and banning excessive perfume

If you don't fit in one seat, buy two. I paid for my seat, and I don't want to give up half of it.

[JANdad]

94. So you're cool with age discrimination...

Cool!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

95. I hate crying babies

One reason why I do not have children.

Churches have special areas for people with babies. Why not planes?

[question everything]

29. This is why I was glad, a few months ago, that Delta used a 2-3-2

configuration for our transatlatic flight. I selected the two seats for the two of us..

I hate the old wide body 3-5-3..

[Vickers]

33. Yup, this was a 3-5-3.

And I was in seat B.

:(

[WolverineDG]

83. Lucky you

I'd rather have dealt with that than sitting next to a guy who hadn't bathed in weeks (or years).

dg

[madamesilverspurs]

20. Airlines' decisions on seat size and legroom

lead to increased incidence of deep vein thrombosis. I'd read about it before it happened to me. Heavy doses of steroids were part of the treatment for the blood clot that traveled to my lung, resulting in my packing on 120 pounds in less than a year. I've managed to lose about half of that, but I'm still in the category they want to penalize. Pardon me, but this royally pisses me off.

[question everything]

41. And, at a recent transatlantic flight, we were told by Delta

personnel that we could not stand or walk in the aisle because of "security concerns." Except for bathrooms, I suppose. For a while it was recommended to try to stand and walk during long flights to prevent DVT but, it appears, that the health of the passengers is the least of their concerns.

[lovepg]

45. I guess if you get a stroke from a clot..

At least you will remain in your seat quietly during the flight.
Hell they allready got your money.

[glowing]

24. This country sooo needs highspeed rail... Most, unless long distances, would opt

for a train.. moveablity, snack car, bar car... Many more would choose a commute like that than to go thru the crap one must while flying..

[dysfunctional press]

54. if it was economically feasible- it would already be in place.

the hardest/most expensive part about trying to build a network at this point would be land aquisition for the tracks.

[mwooldri]

82. I'd love high speed rail between New York and London.

Except there's this obstacle in the way, and last I heard, it's getting bigger.

Flying or boat are the only two ways I can get home, and the Queen Mary doesn't sail often enough or cheap enough for me.

Mark.

[MineralMan]

25. These threads always deteriorate into name-calling.

Sad.

[Ikonoklast]

79. Then don't post in them.

Jerk.

















:hide: :rofl:

[Cleita]

26. Why don't they have a row or two of fat seats?

I know it might be humiliating to the passengers who have to sit in them but it would solve a problem.

[TahitiNut]

30. Eventually, they'll drug us and load us on slabs like cargo ... and we'll "like" it.

After all, it's easier to be COMPLETELY dehumanized than actually demand as much seating space that we'd get in a movie house or rock concert - where we'd spend LESS time.

I'm disgusted with my "fellow citizens" who put up with this shit and turn on one another.

:puke:

[lovepg]

56. I agree

This kind of thinking is sad and dangerous. And it will not stop with the obese.
Babies are next mark my words. Those damn diaper carry on bags alone take up more space than your average obese person.
And the average obese person does not scream in your ear the entire flight either.

[Love Bug]

31. I don't see how providing a few wider seats will solve the problem

Providing a few wider seats is not going to solve the problem unless the airline can ensure only the wider among us will get them. How can they possibly do this?

If a passenger doesn't fit into the confines of his or her seat, United can force the over-sized customer to leave the plane and wait for another flight with two empty seats side-by-side. If the traveler doesn't want to wait on the standby list for two empty seats, United will sell a second seat at the same ticket price the customer paid... Southwest has had a similar policy since the 1980s. "Customers of size," in Southwest parlance, can book two seats online by repeating the passenger's name with XS as a middle name for the second seat. At check-in, the customer gets a boarding pass, a Reserved Seat document to block other passengers from the extra seat during open boarding and a form for a refund if the plane doesn't oversell and the airline doesn't bump passengers.

How would this work? I have flown probably a dozen times over the past three years and every flight I've been on has been packed to the limit. I don't see how anyone gets a standby seat anymore.

Reminder to self: Avoid United Airlines. I do my best not to encroach upon another's seat, but flying is humiliating enough with having to practically disrobe for security without my fanny being measured publicly and possibly being found too large for their seat. Having to cough up for another seat on the spot (and they don't say how much -- will that be at the same discount rate I bought my original seat at or the same-day-as-inflated-rate?) is not always possible.

BTW -- it isn't just us fatties who take up too much space. How about the guys who can't sit without having their legs spread because they can't make them fit the available legroom or because their too-tight jeans will crush their bits? Will they be forced to get a second seat, too?

The solution is for the airlines to accept the fact their customer base is just getting larger and, just like for other businesses, they will need to accommodate them or risk losing customers to any airline that is savvy enough to do so. If we all have to pay a little more, then so be it.

[snooper2]

53. space violation!

Thread was begging for a picture :evilgrin:

[question everything]

58. Poor guy. If he had a decent legroom

he would not be forced to spread out.

Perhaps he should sit on his side?

[CTyankee]

59. Due to my unfortunate experience on Southwest I developed a strategy.

Since you can't reserve a seat on SW and aisle and window seats are chosen first, I always look for the middle seat that is between the two skinniest people and the furthest to the front. It doesn't always work well if there is a stop and people get off and others on, but at least I am spared on one leg of the trip. As for crying babies, I got no clue...

[Dappleganger]

67. This is why

as soon as it's 24 hours before departure, I do online check-in in order to get those good seats.
Takes a little forethought but it is definitely worth it (I set the alarm on my computer to remind me).

[question everything]

70. Can you do this with Southwest?

I haven't flown SW - they just came to town a few months ago - but I reserve seats when I make the reservation, and then, 24 hrs ahead, print the boarding pass so there won't be a chance of bumping, or other nefarious activities that airlines love to do.

[Dappleganger]

75. Yes

You won't get seat assignments of course, but you'll be the first group on and get first pick.
Definitely worth it if you want a particular seat or traveling with someone else.

I love flying SW and don't mind paying a little more for direct flights.

[CTyankee]

78. But you can't reserve a seat on SW, that's the problem. nt

[Dappleganger]

80. If you go in the first group, you can sit pretty much anywhere.

I've never had a problem getting a window seat.

[NJCher]

60. how dare they!

How dare the size of those passengers not conform to the needs of the airlines' profit and loss statements.

They are doing the same thing the healthcare industry does--trying to peel off the profitable and to hell with the rest.

Plenty of business operations operate on a set fee. Take banks, for example. If you bounce a check for $35,000, it costs $35 for an overdraft. But if you bounce a check over a 35 cent mistake, it's $35.

Over time and the law of averages, it works out.

Overweight people bear enough of a stigma in this culture. Airlines should not be allowed to add to it.


Cher

[question everything]

71. Several years ago we had a financial guy to talk about refinancing

it was when interest rates were really going down. He said that they were charging $5,000 closing costs for each transaction, whether the loan was for $200K or $2 million. We thanked him and showed him the door.

(However, it did give me the incentive to call our mortgage company and refinance with them, with hardly any closing costs).

[Javaman]

62. Meh, if they have to buy an additional seat I hope they also get double the air miles.

Watch people freak out then! LOL

[Missy Vixen]

66. No, they don't.

It's like someone who bought an extra seat for a musical instrument or some other thing.

Here's another interesting issue: In the small print of the "you must buy a second seat" policy, there is verbiage that claims the airline still reserves the right to reseat another person in the second seat you just paid for. Yes, it's true.

:eyes:

[Javaman]

68. Well that sucks. nt

[Prism]

63. I love threads like this

Half the inconvenience of flying are the passengers who are always complaining about what everyone else on the plane is doing.

It's an airplane, not a luxury cruise. Sometimes it's uncomfortable. So is being mashed on a subway standing up for an hour during a commute. Or a crowded bus. Or just managing an urban sidewalk during rush hour.

Travelling through life is inconvenient in general. But, we're a society that, my god, shall not suffer inconvenience or discomfort for one instant. It's a violation of our civil rights or something.

I fly all the time, and much of the time I'm not completely comfortable. On one transatlantic flight, I was smack between two larger passengers. Given my wider shoulders, I sat for a nice eight hours with my hands between my knees as I quietly read a book. When it became actively uncomfortable, I got up to use the bathroom, stretched, flexed, and spent about five minutes with a bit of free space, then sat down again and resumed reading. Inconvenient? Sure, but not exactly a life hurdle. An eleven hour flight while leaning as far against the window as possible because the passenger next to me was overtaking my seat? Yup, been there. Don't care. Whatever their health problems, I never thought their one goal in life was to carelessly make me as uncomfortable as possible.

The most aggravating flight I ever experienced had nothing to do with the complaints made in this thread. It had to do with the attitude of the complainers. I had a four hour flight cross country a few weeks ago. There was a baby onboard making a fuss. I opted for ear plugs at first, then switched to headphones. No big deal. Comes with the territory. People with children need to travel too, and babies often don't like the noise or changes in air pressure.

But this passenger next to me could not abide it. Huffing and puffing and sighing and glaring and frowning and flouncing and fist-clenching and stomping. His irritation at the child had me enthralled at first. An adult man, ostensibly forced to share general society with everyone else, having an absolute fit right there in his seat. I tried to be helpful and pointed out there were headphones and an audio channel with white noise to help blot out sound. He turned on me with one of the angriest fuck you faces I've ever seen.

Honestly, those passengers are the ones that bother me during travel. The other stuff? Just humans, trying to get somewhere, just like everyone else.

[MrsMatt]

64. what you said + 1! n/t

[Karenina]

65. +2

[Swamp Rat]

69. +3

:thumbsup:

[flvegan]

72. +4 This should be an OP so that I can recommend it.

Well said.

[dugaresa]

73. have to say I agree with you

[question everything]

76. Except that with attitude like yours, the airlines contine to stretch

the limit.

On a thread about legroom that I posted last week, we were told how airlines are going to reduce the pitch from 33 or 32 inch to 31. They don't need the galley now so they are adding more seats. And with more passengers they still keep only two bathrooms.

And here also. They still rely on 50s measurements that were 18" but now they are shrinking them to 17" while we, as members of society have spread in both directions.

No, it does not have to be a luxury cruise line, but why getting it worse, knowing that they have a captive audience, when all of them are doing the same so we really do not have much choice, certainly not on an overseas flight.

I am not a large person, the opposite, really, but I feel sorry for anyone more than 6 ft tall and 200 lbs.

[Prism]

77. I actually agree with you

I'm a little under six feet tall, and on some domestic flights even my knees are touching the seat in front of me. In those cases, I tend to manuever my feet under the seat in front of me as much as possible. I've seen some passengers with long legs try to situate themselves, and it's often awkward at best. With width, many domestic airlines have solid barriers for armrests, and I wonder particularly about female passengers as women tend to have wider hips. At some point, the airline is doing battle against basic human biology.

So I don't agree with the airlines trying to squeeze people more and more into seats.

My comments are mainly geared towards the attitudes about bigger passengers and extra tickets. If we're being honest, an added inch or two in seat width isn't going to ameliorate most of the cases that are usually the cause of loudest complaint. Even in this thread, you get those dramatic stories about how unpleasant it is to sit next to someone with a weight problem, the horror and humanity of it all.

Personally, I can live with slight discomfort and no armrest. Especially if it is saving the person next to me an extra $500. If it allows someone else to travel who couldn't afford it otherwise, I'm happy to do so. I've been squeezed and mashed into just about every form of transportation possible. I don't find the airlines nearly as claustrophobic as commuter trains around eight in the morning. I used to take a train one hour each way to work that was just as crowded and constricting as some domestic airlines. People deal with it every single day. But for whatever reason planes seem to arouse this crazed passion in people about space and comfort. Put someone on a plane once a year with a less than amazing experience, and man, you'll hear denunciations about weight, height, children, service, and just about every deficiency of the human condition imaginable.

It seems weird to me.

[KamaAina]

74. Cheap airlines don't sit well with passengers

not this one, anyway.

I just flew Hawaiian from Honolulu to Sacramento for a regional conference. Same Boeing 767 that others fly -- but more room. Not squashed in at all. And this was plain old coach. So why can't the big carriers do it? :shrug:

[mwooldri]

81. Time to fly Derrie Air then I guess...

http://flyderrie-air.com/ - they charge by the pound...

[question everything]

84. Quite clever

And Ryanair is considering charging passengers to use the toilet...

http://news.cheapflights.com/airlines/2009/06/ryanair-ceo-serious-about-toilet-fees.html

[mwooldri]

85. That Michael O'Leary is quite a character.

He mentioned that if Ryanair did a trans-atlantic service that he would have two classes: Economy where you have to pay for everything, and business, where everything would be free, and quote, "including the blowjobs".

[Puzzler]

86. I guess we can take the "sit well" line literally.

.

[alarimer]

88. The real problem is that they are cutting into their profits.

If a person takes up two seats and does not pay for the extra room, well, that cuts into the airline's profits. But, of course, the airlines are trying to squeeze as much profit out of passengers by making the seats smaller and closer together.

[AnnieBW]

89. I'm a fat flier

I'm obese. I'm not proud of it, but it's what I am. Does it stop me from flying? No. I've sat in middle seats. I've come flat out and said to people, "sorry that you're stuck next to the fat chick" to get it out of the way. I fly first or business class whenever I can. I don't mind paying extra for it if I can afford it. I'd be thrilled if they had larger seats that I could buy without going into first class. Frankly, I don't need all of the fuss of First Class - just give me a wider frickin' seat! But, after suffering a Sydney - LA flight on an aisle, crammed in next to my husband in the middle because the single guy by the window refused to move, I can deal with just about anything.

[Skittles]

93. aw Annie

I never have a problem with obese folk because I have room to spare - I will immediately offer to raise the arm rest when the plane is in the air.....not everyone is a jerk :)

[Skittles]

91. there are those of us who don't mind sitting next to obese folk

because we have room to spare - perhaps such pairings can be arranged

[Manifestor_of_Light]

92. They should have wider seats for fat people.

Then there was the armpit in my face and necktie hanging in front of me.

I was on the aisle, next to an elderly couple. The lady saw their luggage being UNloaded from the plane, out the window, and called over an attendant (male). He spent ALL his time hanging over me to talk to them, with right hand on the back of MY seat, left arm on the seat in front of me, and his necktie hanging in front of my face.

He was trying to placate them and I don't know if they ever saw their luggage again.

Anyway, I was NOT pleased and did not say anything b/c the couple were already quite upset, understandably.

:grr: