Gas mileage, Consumer Reports, reality, and the Prius "halo" effect

[DainBramaged]

So I'm over my sister's apartment on Sunday, and I notice she has the April 2009 Consumer Reports "Best and Worst 2009 Cars" edition on the kitchen table (she's a subscriber). I have disagreed vehmently with their methods for years, but I was puzzled by the descriptions under each car, until I realized that they (in many cases) actually did test loops (highway, country road, and city) and tested many of the cars. After the light bulb went on in my cavernous cranial cavity, I realized how brainwashed so many people are by the Japanese marketing machine and the concept that the Prius makes ALL Japanese cars economical, more so than American cars, and MANY require premium fuel too. ALL of the figures I list below are posted with the vehicle summaries (CR OVERALL MPG::) every model, nothing left out that they tested. Maybe it's about time a hole was blown into the wall of invincibility DU members have put up surrounding Japanese iron. And when many of you point fingers at Hummer, your laundry is just as dirty. Only a couple of cars stand out with better than 25 MPG combined. And for reference, my 1995 Chevy Cavalier gets 25+ MPG EVERY tank, with city and highway combined.

Here's the beef sportsfans:

1. Acura MDX: 17
   
2. Acura RDX: 18
   
3. Acura RL: 19
   
4. Acura TL: 23
   
5. Acura TSX: Not tested
   
6. Honda Accord: 23
   
7. Honda CR-V: 21
   
8. Honda Civic: 28
   
9. Honda Element: 21
   
10. Honda Fit: 30
    
11. Honda Insight: NOT Tested
    
12. Honda Odyssey: 19
    
13. Honda Pilot: 18
    
14. Honda Ridgeline: 15
    
15. Honda S2000: 25 (A sports car gets better mileage than a family car)
    
16. Infiniti EX: 18
    
17. Infiniti FX: NOT Tested
    
18. Infiniti G: 21
    
19. Infiniti M: 19
    
20. Infiniti QX: NOT Tested
    
21. Lexus ES: 23
    
22. Lexus GS: 23
    
23. Lexus GX: 15
    
24. Lexus IS: 24
    
25. Lexus LS: 21
    
26. Lexus LX: NOT Tested
    
27. Lexus RX: NOT Tested
    
28. Lexus SC: 21
    
29. Mazda CX-7: 18
    
30. Mazda CX-9: 16
    
31. Mazda Miata: 27
    
32. Mazda RX-8: 18
    
33. Mazda Tribute: 21
    
34. Mazda 3: 27
    
35. Mazda 5: 23
    
36. Mazda 6: 24
    
37. Mitsubishi Eclipse: 19
    
38. Mitsubishi Endeavor: 17
    
39. Mitsubishi Galant: 23
    
40. Mitsubishi Lancer: 25
    
41. Mitsubishi Outlander: 22
    
42. Nissan Z: 20
    
43. Nissan Altima: 25
    
44. Nissan Armada: 13 MPG (THIRTEEN MPG Hummer haters, THIRTEEN MPG)
    
45. Nisaan Cube: NOT Tested
    
46. Nisaan Frontier: 15
    
47. Nissan GT-R: NOT Tested
    
48. Nissan Maxima: 22
    
49. Nissan Murano: 19
    
50. Nissan Pathfinder: 15
    
51. Nissan Quest: 18
    
52. Nissan Rogue: 22
    
53. Nissan Sentra: 26
    
54. Nissan Titan: 13 MPG, ANOTHER WINNER
    
55. Nissan Versa: 27
    
56. Nissan Xterra: 17
    
57. Scion tC: 26
    
58. Scion xB: 23
    
59. Scion xD: 29
    
60. Subaru Forester: 22
    
61. Subaru Impreza: 23
    
62. Subaru Legacy: 18
    
63. Subaru Tribeca: 16
    
64. Toyota 4Runner: 16
    
65. Toyota Avalon: 22
    
66. Toyota Camry: 24
    
67. Toyota Corolla: 32
    
68. Toyota FJ Cruiser: 17
    
69. Toyota Highlander: 18
    
70. Toyota Land Cruiser: 14 MPG FOURTEEN MPG
    
71. Toyota Matrix: 27
    
72. Toyota Rav4: 23
    
73. Toyota Sequoia: 15
    
74. Toyota Sienna: 19
    
75. Toyota Tacoma: 17
    
76. Toyota Tundra: 15
    
77. Toyota Venza: NOT Tested
    
78. Toyota Yaris: 30
    
79. Toyota Prius: 42
    
    
    ...
    

There you have it. The most comprehensive list of actual miliage figures for Japanese cars, trucks , and SUVs ever posted on DU. The magazine has published these figures for the world to see. And what they say is that the Japanes auto industry is no more efficient than the American manufacturers. The balloon is busted. No more bullshit regarding the superiority or economy of the Japanese auto industry.

[Teaser]

1. yeah, except American cars are craptacular breakdown machines

.

[DainBramaged]

4. And your source of reference???

Your statement speaks volumes of you. Maybe you should work for Toyota, oh what a relief it would be.

[Renew Deal]

You must be excited

It's another thread for you to hurl angry, irrational, insults at people. :applause:

[GKirk]

20. Wife just bought a Chevy Impala

very nice car, well put together, great gas mileage (easily in the 30mpg+ range highway, sometimes hitting 40mpg).

Would strongly recommend to others

[DainBramaged]

24. No one here will believe you, which is why I posted these numbers

I get tired of all the claims that car x owned by person y gets mileage z but they don't have a journal or bother to actually do the math when they fill up, they assume, but CR is the authority and if they have a gripe, they need to direct the same anger they have for American iron towards CR. CR will respond post haste ( :rofl: ).

Thank you for supporting the UAW and the Domestic auto industry.

[WolverineDG]

71. When I rent a car, I usually get the Impala

Great car, good mileage (yes to the 30+mpg highway), but my favorite thing about this car is the seat. :) Very comfy!

dg

[JNelson6563]

43. That's not been my experience.

I've not had problems with my domestic cars. Pontiac, Chevy, Dodge, Oldsmobile, I've owned them all and they were all good cars.

Julie

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. Bwahahahahahah

I have 1 minute to spare, which is plenty of time for you to tell me EVERYTHING you know about American made cars...

We own TWO Chevy Tahoes. One is an '03, the other an '04. We live in the moutains, and have snow on the ground for about four months every year. This last year, my Ms.' Tahoe (the '03) was driven in 4L the entire winter. Between our vehicles, they have a total of approx. 175,000 miles. Both have made the trip from So. Cal. to Boise (to my parents' house) in the heat of summer and the cold of winter at least ten times each. NEITHER vehicle has had major repairs. Hers has had a bad alternator, which I replaced myself, mine has had nothing more than regular maintenance, i.e. oil changes etc.

Craptacular performing vehicles!

[spoony]

145. What an in depth and irrefutable thesis paper you've posted here.

Why with all those statistics and facts and figures, how can anyone argue with your obviously fair and balanced conclusion?

[AngryAmish]

2. I just think Honda makes a better vehicle

Mine is 12 years old and over 130k (50k driven in Chicago). The doors still fit nice. The fabric on the seats is not worn out.

My last car (Pontiac) was completely worn out at 70k and six years.

No, the engineering is better for my Honda. When I need a next car in five years I'll get another Honda.

[ShortnFiery]

28. Now here's where we agree 100% AA. My 95' Honda Odessy, 4 door, 4 cylinder van is still

at 135,000 miles on the odometer ... running strong, i.e., other than brake overhaul, no major repairs.

Granted, it's not a pretty or has near the pick-up (never did because it was the only 4 cylinder Odessy that Honda has made to date) as when we purchased it brand spanking new. However, with regular PMs throughout it's life, it's been MY BABY and not stranded me once. The closest to being stranded was when some electrical problem was ongoing and it kept stalling on the way home from the grocery - but I said a prayer to the great auto-mechanic in the sky and she got me home. :blush:

I remember my older brother, a mechanical engineer, warned me, "Wait until next year to buy your Odessy, they are going to start making them 6 cylinder ... that 4 cylinder has NO GUTS.

Yes, she takes a little while to build up speed so I've never drag raced to the next stoplight, but I'm happy ... my daughter who WILL be learning to drive after I have it's next full PM ... NOT SO HAPPY. :rofl:

Beyond all else, a well maintained 95 Honda is one excellent "first car" for one's teen driver.

[AngryAmish]

36. Mine is a 4 cylander - and still has more pick up than my 6 cyl Pontiac

I'm not really a car guy but I get where I need to.

[TahitiNut]

44. My 1990 Chrysler LeBaron convertible has over 110K milles, 19 years old ...

... and gets compliments almost every week from some passer-by. It isn't, by any stretch of the imagination, the best Detroit has to offer, either.

I've owned Plymouth, Volvo, AMC, Volkswagen, Honda, Chevy, Oldsmobile, and this Chrysler ... and the AMERICAN cars have been BETTER than the imports.

[reformedrethug]

50. My wife's last car

was a 93 Honda Accord 4 cyl and it had 335,000 miles on it and never had the heads off. Just routine maintenance done to it, the ONLY reason we do not drive it today is because she hit a deer 2 1/2 years ago and totaled it. She walked away but the deer didnt, she hit it at 60 mph. We now drive an 04 Accord that has almost 100K on it. My wife has now owned 3 Accords and swears by them. I have had ford's, chevy's buick's pontiac's, and dodges's and out of all of them I think the Accord is the best of the bunch. Now I have not owned a late model Domestic so I cannot to a complete comparison but, from what I have seen at auto shows and test drives in the past give me an Accord any day of the week.

[Statistical]

153. Depending on the year that was intentionally.

GM had "planned obsolesecence".

They noticed in the late 80s people went from keeping a car for 5 years to keeping it for 6. Well one car every 6 years instead of one every 5 is 2 or 3 less vehicles in a lifetime.

2 or 3 less vehicles = less profit over the lifetime of the consumer.

They implemented "planned obsolescence" in an attempt to reduce average length of ownership.

It still amazes me of the level of greed AND arrogance that required.

Lets make a crappier products so the consumer needs to buy more. Of course it didn't occur to them that people might switch to foreign brands.

2 generations of that and GM has a reputation of crappy product quality. Wow who would have guess that? Intentionally burning the consumer on their largest purchase might not work.

Now GM faces a situation where even IF they build cars as good as Honda or Toyota those consumers (like) you are satisfied.

Why should they (you) switch back?
Short term profits destroyed a lifetime of sales.

[liberal N proud]

3. Huh?

"ALL Japanese cars economical, more so than American cars, and MANY require premium fuel too"


I have a 2001 American made luxury sedan that gets 20/22 mpg highway and 17 city. That tops more than 20 NEW vehicles on that list.

Part of the problem with the US Auto companies is that we the American consumer have bought into the propaganda that Japanese cars are better.

[DainBramaged]

6. That's the point of the post. Or did I not explain it clearly enough???

[liberal N proud]

15. I must have misinterpreted

And talk about quality of American cars vs. Japanese. My 2001 has nearly 150,000 miles and I have spent no more than $4000 dollars on major repairs.

Timing Belt/Water Pump
Power Train Control Module
New Struts all around
Shift Cable.

Been pretty reliable, I am currently in the middle of a cross country tip with my 8 year old, 150,000 mile automobile without a worry.

Last Toyota Camry I drove, I was worried about getting to Pittsburgh and back to Cleveland. Rattled all the way and it was a new rental with no more than 3000 miles on it.


I would like to keep driving cars from the US Auto Makers. Union Made.

[michreject]

63. Not me

I get 12 MPG in my 07, Chevy, 3/4 ton PU truck and wouldn't drive a Japanese car if it was free.

[Renew Deal]

5. How does that prove anything? Where are the American (and euro) numbers so we can compare?

:shrug:

[msongs]

7. false claims there. my xB gets way better mileage than this list says nt

[DainBramaged]

10. Call Consumer Reports and bitch.

[Catshrink]

8. That is eye opening.

Under real conditions meaning real life, my Civic gets 33-34 mpg, not the 28 listed here. It's more toward 34+ if I'm doing mostly highway and it's been as low as 32 if I do purely city which I never do. Wonder how they came up with 28?

[DainBramaged]

12. Did you read the text in the post or just glance over it and decide to reply?

They SPECIFICALLY state (and I quote from the magazine) CR OVERALL MILIAGE: IS OUR OVERALL FUEL MILEAGE FOR MODELS WE'VE TESTED RECENTLY BASED ON A MIX OF HIGHWAY, COUNTRY ROAD, AND CITY DRIVING.

[Catshrink]

21. Yes, I read that.

And combined, I get 33-34 mpg in my Civic, considerably higher than the 28 they list. That combined, a mix of highway, country road, and city driving. When I had a Saturn, I got nearly the same, perhaps a bit lower, but still pretty darn good. If Saturn had made a model I actually liked when my old own crapped out, I would have bought one then.

[DainBramaged]

22. So if your mileage varies so much, call CR and complain.

Remember, your mileage may vary, and apparently, their tests are consistent real world. Unless you are keeping track of every tank and not assuming, I'm, going to believe CR because they are the authority.

[Catshrink]

26. Well I do calculate it on every tank

and my experience is my authority. And quite frankly, I don't care enough about this descrepancy to complain.

[DainBramaged]

30. But 13 MPG Nissan's and 14 MPG Toyota's don't bother you?

YOUR car gets great mileage, to hell with the rest of the world, is that it? You missed my point completely. This isn't about YOUR car, it's about the Japanese auto makers, and the fact that the preponderance of their models get shit mileage, as bad or worse than many American cars. Who are you kidding?

Keep enjoying your car. I can see why so many of you wear binders.

[Buzz Clik]

32. The only Toyotas getting less than 20 are vans are SUVs.

The 14 mpg is from the earth raping Land Cruiser.

[DainBramaged]

39. My point, and they sell WAY more vans, trucks and suvs than Prius'.

[Buzz Clik]

47. That's an interesting attempt to skew the statistics.

From last year:

Toyota Division passenger cars recorded June sales of 119,024 units, up 4.4 percent over the same period last year. Passenger car sales were led by Corolla, which posted best-ever June sales of 42,180 units, up 30 percent over June 2007. Camry and Camry Hybrid reported combined sales of 41,572 units in June, up 0.3 percent over the year-ago month. Camry Hybrid
recorded June sales of 3,054 units. With limited availability, the Prius hybrid gas-electric mid- size sedan posted June sales of 11,765 units. Yaris recorded monthly sales of 8,472 units, up 4.1 percent over last June.

"As the pendulum swings towards smaller, higher-mileage vehicles, we're well-poised to offer the right products at the right time," said TMS President Jim Lentz. "A five-door liftback will soon join the Yaris line-up, widening the choice for value-conscious consumers in challenging
economic times."

Toyota Division light trucks reported June sales of 53,957 units, down 31.5 percent from the year-ago month. Light truck sales were led by the Tacoma mid-size pickup with sales of 11,364 units. The Tundra full-size pickup recorded sales of 10,238 units for the month. Highlander and
Highlander Hybrid posted combined monthly sales of 6,872 units. The Highlander Hybrid gas- electric mid-size SUV reported sales of 1,511 units for the month. Sequoia reported sales of 2,444 units in June, up 40.8 percent over the year-ago month.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Toyota-Sales-Drop-10-3-In-June-Lexus-Starts-To-Take-On-Water-Dropping-21-1-31789/

Does the single car, Prius, outsell all the Toyota trucks, vans, and SUVs? No. But the biggest selling Toyotas all get terrific mileage and outsell the Toyota trucks, vans, and SUVs.

[DainBramaged]

65. Again, 7/1/08, got anything current, or are you a one trick pony?

[Buzz Clik]

68. At least I provided something -- and you're providing nothing to back your arguments.

[DainBramaged]

70. You didn't prove shit, my information was from APRIL of 2009

give me a fucking break. I POSTED the information verbatim, period Like I said, you want to dispute the numbers, call CR or post your own fucking thread.

[Buzz Clik]

73. You posted HALF the information needed to even begin a discussion.

The rest is all bullshit.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Buzz Clik]

82. Whatever.

Your argument has been completely dismantled. Nothing left to be done here.

[Blue-Jay]

135. Jeez, what a dick...

[JVS]

138. I bet you drive some kind of import!

;-)

[DainBramaged]

143. Merry Christmas

[JVS]

91. Here are the CAFE scores for a few categories. American companies lag behind Honda and Toyota.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=fuel&story=cafe&subject=fuelList

[Buzz Clik]

97. What's wrong with you?

If you want to have a balance discussion, start your own thread.

:evilgrin:

[JuniperLea]

157. LOL!!

Good one!

:evilgrin:

[MadHound]

29. So you've disagreed vehemently with CR's methods for years,

And I believe you, since you've been bashing CR for years, yet now, suddenly they're golden? What changed? Oh, yeah, they published something that you agree with with. Hypocrite much?

[spoony]

148. No, it's arguing with people from their own source material.

Those who have for years held up CR as some cudgel to beat on domestics now have their own preferred source of information refuting them. That's what's happening here.

The OP says as much here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5809532&mesg_id=5810598

[DainBramaged]

152. Which is the reason so much vitriol has sprayed across this thread

and all of the haters are trying to shut it down and 'alert' on every reply. Their balloon is done, a vinyl shard of itself.

[SidDithers]

51. So, we're supposed to believe your anecdotal 25+ mpg...

on your 1995 Cavalier, but you won't believe other posters' anecdotal, real-world fuel efficiency results?

Ahhh, I love the smell of hypocrisy.

Sid

[EOTE]

107. What year is your Civic?

You should know that they've been getting heavier and more powerful over the years. The new SI averages around 24-25 mpg.

[jmowreader]

128. How many miles are on your Civic?

New cars get worse gas mileage than older ones do because they're tighter. It takes more force to make a really tight car move a certain speed than it does a little looser one, so you'll get a bit better mileage after the car's broken in. CU's test protocol is to buy cars new at the dealer and test them.

Also...you may have economical driving habits. I'm certain CU has several drivers with varying driving styles run the cars over the test routes, which would give a more representative figure. (33mpg is pretty good mileage, you should be proud of your driving skills.)

[hobbit709]

9. My 1992 toyota extended cab pickup with camper top

And 116,000 miles gets 26 mpg in town and 31 on the highway.

[DainBramaged]

14. Wow

[SoCalDem]

34. Our 91 Accord EX still gets 28 (only driven on highway)

MY in-town car gets shitty mileage, but we knew it when we bought it, and I was not concerned because we only fill it once a month (or longer)..love the heated leather seats & all the "fancy" stuff on it..gas mileage was not a factor for us.

[MadHound]

11. And when my ten year old Honda Civic, which gets thirty plus mpg finally dies

I will do what I always do when buying a new vehicle. I will look at what's available, both foreign and domestic, that meets my needs and criteria. If that is a domestic vehicle, great. If it's an import, so be it. But since it is my money on the line, my life, then it is my decision, and I will make the decision that is best for me. It's that simple, and if you don't like it, tough shit.

Your attitude, when it comes to both four wheeled and two wheeled vehicles is that we should purchase vehicles that don't meet our needs or criteria, just to say that we buy American. That's frankly quite stupid. If I had followed that advice, I would have overpaid for a Harley and gotten more bike than I wanted or needed. Instead, since Harley doesn't make 150cc scooters, I bought a Baja from India. Same thing goes with cars, it's foolish to buy something that doesn't meet your needs or criteria in order to simply say that you bought American. It is not up to us to fit our needs and criteria to what American manufacturers give us, American manufacturers need to build products that fit our needs and criteria. For a long while they didn't do that, and now we're seeing the fall out from decades of that attitude. Perhaps they've learned their lesson, we'll see. If not, then I will be buying a foreign model the next time I buy a vehicle. Don't like that, tough shit. Until you start paying for my vehicle, you have absolutely no say so in my decision.

[Tobin S.]

13. This is going to be an interesting thread

How about the claims that Japanese cars are superior to American cars as far as longevity and dependability go? Have you seen any studies about that?

[DainBramaged]

17. This is about mileage, period. Start your own thread about that if you choose

I guess Consumer Reports is not as loved on DU as I thought. How could they lie?

[Tobin S.]

19. It was an honest question. I have no opinion of Consumer Reports.

[MadHound]

25. Oh DB isn't really looking for an honest debate,

He's simply trolling for more people he can put on his ignore list. He does this periodically, announcing with great glee that the ones who disagree with his rants are getting the "dreaded click." I received the "dreaded click" a year or so ago (notice that he won't answer my post), but still find it fun to poke holes in his arguments.

So keep it up, you too can be honored with the "dreaded click".

[SidDithers]

46. I wear my "click" with pride...

:hi:

Sid

[reformedrethug]

55. Oh I am sure I will get that same click

especially when he sees what I am about to post:

My wife works for Honda and has worked there for 24 years at both the car plant and bike plant and we own 2 honda's, 1 car and 1 motorcycle. We only own a Durango because of the size, no other reason.

[DainBramaged]

62. That's sad, do you shop at WalMart?

Sad that you gleefully support he Japanese while American manufacturing is off-shored. I'm not going to put you on ignore, but those I have who continue to post in my threads are simply sad lonely people who just think carrying an argument to every thread I post is cute, when in reality it's pretty sick.

Honda isn't an American car, and their profits and the non-Union job your wife has isn't good for America.

[Obamanaut]

122. I do! I do! Pick me. And I ride a Japanese motorcycle too. nt

[madmom]

52. Just traded a 1991 chevy blazer, it had over 200,000 miles. The guy it was

traded to still drives it.Don't know the mileage, but as for dependability, he drives it to work everyday and has made it there without problems.

[Buzz Clik]

16. Those are some curious numbers.

I drive an Accord -- we have two in the family.

The 1999 four-banger Accord gets 22+ city only and 30+ highway. About 27 mpg combined.
I drive a 6-cylinder Accord hybrid. My last tank was about 70% highway, and I got 30 mpg. City only -- 24 mpg. Highway only -- 35 mpg.

We have two Civics in the family -- both get 35+ highway and no less than 25 mgp city. I guess the reported 28 mpg is close.

[DainBramaged]

18. So , is CR lying??

[Buzz Clik]

23. You tell me.

My Accord keeps track of my mileage since I bought the car. It's averaging right at 29-30, and that includes winter driving when gas economy plunges.

Those numbers are probably just fine for comparing one car to another, but they are not good universal numbers. Omitting the American cars from the list means that you simply cannot compare the Japanese to the American cars.

[DainBramaged]

27. So, get the April Cr and post the Domestic numbers

My POINT is that so many of you here claim Japanese superiority in mileage, but this blows that theory to hell. If you don't think they are "good universal numbers" complain to CR. Until then, this is the benchmark.

[Buzz Clik]

31. No, it does not. And this thread demonstrates that in spades.

I'm sure that CR does a dynamite job of testing cars under exactly the same conditions. So, the comparisons of those cars tested are totally legit. But, you simply cannot take their numbers and compare them to your experience with your Chevy because the conditions are different. I'm guessing that the domestic cars will test out with lower numbers than you've experienced just as the Japanese cars are testing out lower than everyone on this thread.

[DainBramaged]

37. THAT IS NOT MY POINT

You have a point, post your own thread. MY point is the Japanese cars overall, are not superior in mileage. The Honda Odyssey van is the best selling van in America, and Getting 18 MPG sucks. And the Japanese aren't doing their part to reduce dependence on fossil fuels, since the Prius accounts for 5% of their sales.

Give me a break.

[Buzz Clik]

40. You cannot make your point when you are comparing CR mileage to anecdotal accounts.

If you want to cement the point you're attempting to make, then get the domestic car CR mileage numbers and post them alongside the Japanese. Otherwise, you're engaging in simple arm waving.

[DainBramaged]

42. Cement this, You don't get it, do your own work, we're done.

[JVS]

45. Sounds like someone didn't want to put the US numbers up for comparison

[Buzz Clik]

49. It's the most bizarre argument I've seen in a while.

[Javaman]

64. It's just more half-assed "research from DB.

he does this often. I believe I maybe on his ignore list but if I'm not, I am now! LOL

He's trying to compare apples to oranges.

Like you said, posting a list of American made cars and their average MPG would go a long way to prove his point, but alas, it appears he got bored after he found information that only supports what he wants to spew rather than actual evidence.

It's like putting up a picture of a blue banana and then stating all banana's are blue.

[DainBramaged]

67. Hmmm, I did no research, simply posted figures from the April Consumer Reports

Thanks for the personal attack.

[Javaman]

72. But you don't compare them against actual numbers for US makes

only your personal experience.

Give us a list to compare, then and only then can we make a proper comparison.

I stand by what I said.

[Buzz Clik]

74. Exactly. And, he refuses to find and post the numbers.

Any attempt at rational discussion of his points is met with a lot of anger.

[DainBramaged]

76. Post them yourself. Start your own thread or stomp on someone else's thread.

[Buzz Clik]

79. Getting a little pissy that we refuse to accept only half an argument?

[DainBramaged]

75. You are trying to glaze over one fact, Japanese cars and trucks and SUV mileage are not spectacular

and that is the point. And your personal attack is still bullshit.

[Javaman]

88. And just how are we to know they aren't "spectacular" when you don't post US MPG's?

You are just ranting now.

And since YOU did this amazing amount of research, one would think that YOU would also do complete research to back up your claims.

By coming on here and call on us to substantiate YOUR claims, you make yourself look like a very lazy researcher who only wants to do half the work.

With that said, YOU post the numbers for American made cars, than and only then can we make a valued opinion based on facts and not hyperbole.

Nice try, but this is getting very old. You have effectively painted yourself into a corner and are trying desperately to cut a hole in the wall.

[DainBramaged]

92. YOU are trying to project, I didn't do any research, again

(I guess your reading skills suck as much as your comprehension skills) I POSTED numbers from Consumer Reports. What you take from it (and apparently very little) is up to you.

You want to make a comparison (which this thread is NOT about, as I stated before, but since YOU didn't think of this first, I guess it's MY responsibility to make you feel all warm and fuzzy) do it yourself. Go get CR and post the numbers. Then you can pat yourself on the back.

Do you always try and get others to do your work?

[Javaman]

95. so you parrot a web site then claim something based on personal opinion

and call it fact.

nice try.

keep digging. see china yet?

tootles. you are blocked due to your faulty reasoning abilities,inability to understand cause and effect, failure to understand what reasonable research means and because well, you appear to be arguing about something that really doesn't support it's own point.

have a really fantastic day!

[DainBramaged]

98. HAHAHAH oh well, I'll cry all night over my loss of your conversations

thanks for the laughs.

[Javaman]

99. I blocked you once before for your inanity and by you replying with your bran of insanity

only proves my point.

hope you get a clue some day, it would save us all a lot of energy.

[JVS]

33. But where is the bread and butter of the US firms vs. the Japanese firms?

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/08/05/0519_top_sellers/index_01.htm

Sure Toyota and Nissan can make gas-hog SUV's and trucks too, but the Accord/Camry/Altima sized sedans are their main seller with the Civic/Corolla as the second. For each of the big three we can see that the big seller is a large pickup truck.

[zipplewrath]

35. Strip off the hyperbole

You have a sublte point which unfortunately gets lost in your hyperbole. The differences between the car makers isn't nearly as big as one might suspect from the general discussions. However, the devil is in the details. CR did their mix, which is fine and a good basis for comparison. However, one might note that the EPA does the whole "highway/city" rating and it is for a reason. Large, heavy vehicles with large engines will tend to have extremely poor peformance in the city, but can have significantly better in driving over 45 mph. Smaller cars, with smaller engines will do better in low speed/stop and go driving, but at "highway speeds" may not experience the same overall increase in efficiency as compared to their low speed values.

The reason that the major US firms have the reputation that they do is that they basically are always playing "catch up" in the high miliage, low cost vehicle category. The pacific rim firms are often years ahead of them in those categories. But that is not to say that the pacific rim companies don't have their large/low efficiency offerings either. They do. They do follow the US consumer as much as the US companies do. It is just that they are also better at positioning themselves for emerging trends. The Prius, Insight, and the Civic hybrid are just the most recent examples. The US firms are guilty (or more guilty really) of producing their lowest cost, highest efficiency offerings "because they have to". The japanese firms tend to have more of a commitment to those lines and produce more popular versions. Truth is, many of the US offerings are merely rebranded japanese built and designed models.

[Buzz Clik]

38. Best post of the thread.

:thumbsup:

[DainBramaged]

41. (sigh) they aren't playing catch up, they are the equal to the Japanese

If the Japanese are so superior, why do the overall numbers for the highest selling volume vehicles suck? The Japanese have ONE commitment, and that is profit. You can sugar coat their offerings and marketing all you want, but they have convinced America that they get better mileage overall, and it is just not true.

[Buzz Clik]

48. The highest selling Toyota (car, truck, or otherwise) is the Corolla -- 32 mpg.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Toyota-Sales-Drop-10-3-In-June-Lexus-Starts-To-Take-On-Water-Dropping-21-1-31789/

[DainBramaged]

61. More misinformation

the article is from 7/1/2008

[Javaman]

66. and your point is? nt

[Buzz Clik]

69. I have provided information. If you have more recent info, then post it.

[zipplewrath]

54. List the hybrids

List the US hybrids and when they first hit the market. Contrast and compare with the Japanese offerings. List the first 50 mpg rated vehicles from the japanese, then list them for the US manufacturers. The US firms are always a step behind. It is true that they quickly catch up, but they'll get caught with their pants down again, regardless of what you think this snapshot in time is saying. It is how they got the reputation they have. It takes more than a good couple of years to lose a bad reputation.

[bertman]

53. Thanks, DainBramaged.

[DainBramaged]

108. A few people in this thread are all upset and wanted to make Domestic comparisons

so that it's "fair" or that their mileage is so much better than Consumer Reports stated.

I HATE Consumer Reports. DU LOVES Consumer Reports. From Vacuums to cars to vibrators, DU thinks CR is the shits. SO, I post THEIR mileage figures for the Japanese armada, and everyone gets all pissed of that I didn't include the Domestics. So fucking what. All of a sudden, model for model, a "respected" source posts MPG for the Japanese fleet, and CR is suddenly wrong, and heads explode, and real world mileage for some people is better?

Oh the hypocrisy of DU, and especially those who only show up as "ignored" in my threads, the same sad people who time and time again hope for a response, or try so desperately to prove to others they think it's fun to attack when they can't be seen.

Boy, I guess DU really doesn't believe CR?

[kiranon]

56. Get at least 45 mpg in my Prius and often more. Any heavy car/truck

will get poor mileage whoever makes it. I traded in a Toyota Sequoia for the Prius as the Sequoia never met a gas station it didn't love. But the Sequoia was a great SUV in all other respects.

[mrs_p]

57. i thank you too

we have owned three saturns and loved every one. and, yes, i bought them to support the american worker (though, now, i heard they moved their production to mexico, so we may change brands eventually to another american-made car).

[ctaylors6]

58. Here are numbers for all minivans and all family sedans (including US)

For those who are interested, these are the overall mpg numbers from CR. Categories are CR's, not mine.

FAMILY SEDANS:
Nissan Altima V6 23
Honda Accord V6 21
Honda Accord 4-cyl. MT 26
Toyota Camry V6 23
Volkswagen Passat 4-cyl. 24
Nissan Altima 4-cyl. 25
Volkswagen Jetta TDI 33
Toyota Camry Hybrid 34
Hyundai Sonata V6 22
Chevrolet Malibu V6 20
Mazda6 V6 20
Saturn Aura XR V6 20
Mercury Milan 4-cyl. 23
Ford Fusion 4-cyl. 23
Toyota Prius Base 44
Saturn Aura XE 4-cyl. 24
Chevrolet Impala 20
Mitsubishi Galant V6 20
Mitsubishi Galant 4-cyl. 23
Pontiac G6 V6 20
Buick LaCrosse 18
Pontiac G6 4-cyl. 22
Dodge Avenger 20
Chrysler Sebring 4-cyl. 23

MINIVANS:
Toyota Sienna FWD 19
Honda Odyssey 19
Toyota Sienna AWD 18
Hyundai Entourage 17
Kia Sedona 17
Nissan Quest 18
Chrysler Town & Country Limited 17
Dodge Grand Caravan SXT 16

[orwell]

59. I get 49-50 MPG...

...all day and night in my 2006 Prius.

I love that car.

[DainBramaged]

60. (sigh) good, and do you shop at WalMart?

[LeFleur1]

77. Prius Rules

We get 45 to 50 mpg, sometimes more with our Prius. It shuts down at stop lights and doesn't spew pollution into the air. We love it and its warranty. We owned American cars for years and found them to be mostly good cars, especially the Saturn, however, the American car companies were asleep at the wheel. They were either in cahoots with the fuel companies or they just weren't smart enough to see into the future. I don't feel sorry for them, but I do feel for the workers.

They got behind the curve and stayed there.

[JVS]

80. Wow! All this talk is sure making me want a Prius. Or perhaps a Yaris or Corolla if I can't...

afford a Prius.

[DainBramaged]

81. I guess you feel all green then hey?

What do you do about the Sequoia and land Cruiser? You got yours, so I guess it's OK for Toyota to continue to produce such behemoths that guzzle like sailors?

[Obamanaut]

124. Is this question on speed dial? nt

[DainBramaged]

83. So so many of you in this thread missed the point

and that's sad for such an "informed" community. The Japanese don't just make the Prius, they make an array of vehicles that overall, get shitty mileage. And until you all get that and stop celebrating their wonderfulness, maybe something will get done about fossil fuel consumption, but until then, the Japanese smile all the way to the bank and nod approvingly at the dumb American who bought their marketing.

[SidDithers]

87. If so many of us have missed your point..

perhaps you weren't making the point you thought you were making.

Sid

[gratuitous]

94. Oh, I don't think so

After all, this has got to be cheaper than taking an anger management course, and as long as our faultless moderators allow such blatant abuse of other posters, it's all good for at least one person.

[DainBramaged]

96. So you think backhanded personal attacks are OK?

I guess everyone else here is innocent? Or is trying to shut down threads exposing the kinks in the Japanese auto industry armor now bloodsport on DU?

[gratuitous]

100. Obviously I don't think so

But you apparently do, since you indulge in personal attacks, both backhanded and forehanded, so blithely.

By the way, the word you're groping for is "chinks" not "kinks." Less vitriol and more vocabulary, and you might even approach something approximating coherence. As it is, your spittle-flecked, condescending "outrage" schtick is wearing extremely thin, and isn't nearly as persuasive as you might think.

[DainBramaged]

104. It is kinks,because the armor has been losing it's strength for years

yet DU will defend the Japanese (and boycott WalMart) without seeing the hypocrisy.

I am not trying to persuade anyone of anything, certainly not on the vaunted DU where opinion by some is taken as Gospel, and facts, even in black and white, are seen as wrong.

You can attack me all you like, but in the end, your display of perceived superiority of the English language speaks volumes more about you. Thanks for showing us how superior you are. Thanks again.

:eyes:

I decided to take you off my Christmas card list. And I remember something my now deceased Mom used to say when I was little when I needed to respond to the "word bullies"

Sticks and stone may break my bones, but words are guaranteed by the Constitution. Even words by fools.

[LanternWaste]

84. So what were the best and worst of 2009?

So what were the best and worst autos of 2009 as rated by CR?

[ecstatic]

86. Those numbers aren't accurate

My mits. eclipse travels hundreds and hundreds of miles before needing a refill. And I highly doubt the Nissan Armada numbers (one of my unemployed friends drives one and there's no way he would be able to keep that car in operation if it was that bad).

[Romulox]

89. LOL. Funniest response of the thread!

This is sarcasm, right?

"And I highly doubt the Nissan Armada numbers (one of my unemployed friends drives one and there's no way he would be able to keep that car in operation if it was that bad)."

:rofl:

[DainBramaged]

93. Call CR and complain, want the number?

[flvegan]

90. Nothing in that list surprises me at all.

It would appear, I'm sure, that the Japanese cars listed, by class (size, engine displacement, etc) are very much akin to their American competition in overall tested MPG. The land beasts like the Armada and Land Cruiser get abhorrent mileage probably very much in line with the extra large SUVs from the US (Tahoe, Denali, etc, though I don't think Toyota et al crank out anything the size of a Suburban or H2).

I think that the difference in quality and reliability between US and Japanese car makers has diminished a great deal in the last 15 years. There was once a day where it was true that if you bought a Chevette instead of a Civic you were indeed an idiot. I also think that some of the American marques have finally woken up their design teams to make some attractive cars. I did a double take myself the other day at a Ford Fusion. A Ford for chrissakes! Not a GT, not a big V8 rumbling through Flowmasters, a plain ole Fusion. It's a good looking car (so long as it has the twin exhaust, otherwise the ass end looks a bit off).

That said, for the record, I do drive a Japanese car. Built in Japan by Japanese hands, no less. But, I bought it used (6k miles, $8k off the sticker, woo-hoo!). The US didn't build a car to suit all my wants/needs, and I don't buy new. I don't know that my next car will or won't be American, but I'm open to a GM or Ford (hint to Ford: bring that Focus ST over here, and we'll talk).

Or, someone get me winning Lotto numbers and I'll happily shake the hand of every lineworker at Bowling Green when I take delivery of my brand new ZR1, thankyouverymuch.

[depakid]

101. Having driven the yaris and the corolla extensively- I can tell you the numbers for those are bogus

Not sure about any of the others- but if my experience on those two models is indicative, then one might call others into question as well.

[Buzz Clik]

102. Are your personal numbers higher or lower than the reported ones?

[depakid]

103. Considerably higher

The yaris does around 42 on the highway, and around 33-4 around town. The corolla get around 38-39 highway and around 30 in town.

Now, if you gooosing it all around, I'm sure the number would drop- on the other hand, if one were to drive very conservatively, doing rolling stops, coasting and so forth- no doubt they'd be higher.

[Buzz Clik]

106. That seems to be the consistent trend of personal observations on this thread.

[depakid]

110. I actually calculated these out pretty carefully, so I'm reasonably certain about the numbers

[AwakeAtLast]

105. My 4 cyl. 2005 Camry gets 36 mpg

I get gas once a month.

Two of the GM vehicles I owned before the Camry were both made in Canada. Both broke down before I reached 50,000 miles.

How many GM/Ford/Chrysler vehicles are still made in America? Most of the ones I can name offhand are the gas guzzlers (Trucks, Vans, SUVs), and that's from working for a GM subsidiary for four years.

[avaistheone1]

117. The 4 cyclinder Camry has great mpg. We used to have one.

[AwakeAtLast]

142. It's the car I've had the longest

and the one with the least amount of problems.

:thumbsup:

[avaistheone1]

164. It's a great workhorse with a low cost of ownership.

[ContinentalOp]

109. Wait, a minute this isn't about AVERAGES over an entire manufacturer's lineup.

WTF! When I buy a car, I'm only in the market to buy ONE car, not one of each from a given manufacturer. The Japanese manufacturers make cars that get better mileage than any American car. FACT. There is no car currently on the market that gets better mileage than the Prius. The American manufacturers don't give us any options.

Not that you'll read this, since I know you ignore me but the point needed to be made.

[scheming daemons]

111. I wasn't under the impression that American cars got worse mileage..I prefer Japanese cars because..

...they don't suck.

I've owned three GM cars... none of the three made it to 100,000 miles before I had to get rid of them.


I've owned four Toyotas.... all four have lasted beyond 130,000 miles and I'm currently at 150,000 on the fourth.



GM cars might get the same mileage... but they're shitty cars that breakdown earlier and more often.

[ContinentalOp]

158. But American cars DO get worse mileage.

The most efficient Japanese cars get better mileage than any American car. We shop for individual cars, not based on the average efficiency of an entire product line! If you're looking for the most fuel efficient car available, American automakers give you no options.

[taught_me_patience]

112. Last weekend I rented a Pontiac G6 coupe

I own a Honda Accord Coupe. These cars are similar size and price and therefore comparable. The G6 interior was nice and power was good. The problem was that I got 23MPG over 250 miles. WTF!?!?! Total shit. My Honda gets 30MPG.

[DainBramaged]

113. OK, lets expand on your WTF.

Is your Honda a four cyl? ONLY a V6 is available in the G6. I took a V6 2009 Malibu to use during the week after my Mom passed away. I AVERAGED on ONE tank of gas 34.6 MPG. I guess that doesn't count? Oh wait, not until I post the CR domestic numbers. Then it's fair.

[taught_me_patience]

118. I'm sure the rental was a 4 banger

The coupe is available w/a 2.4L I4. Thus it is a direct comparison.

[DainBramaged]

119. Well, unless it was an 09, it was probably a V6

and being sure and being sure is the difference between being sure. Rental fleets aren't usually 4 cyls, because the manufacturers want to showcase their cars, not give the rental customers good mileage.

[taught_me_patience]

123. If that's the case, I'm mistaken

The G6 was a nice car. The thing I like most was the heavy ride. I'll probably buy a used Buick Lucerne as my next car.

[DainBramaged]

125. I LOVE Buick's and not because I'm old

they are quiet, have wonderful rides, comfortable, and a great mix of power and economy.

[taught_me_patience]

127. Very reliable too.

I love their ride, comfort, and fuel economy (suprisingly good considering their size). Basically... for the same reasons as you.

[Initech]

114. My Nissan Altima gets higher than 25 on average.

[DainBramaged]

115. But but Consumer Reports is never wrong!!!!!!

What will be said when I decide to post the Domestic numbers, that they are correct without discrepancy????

[avaistheone1]

116. My boyfriend has a Toyota Yaris and we regularly get between 37 and 40 miles per gallon.

[DainBramaged]

120. Wow, so Consumer Reports is wrong then???

[Orsino]

130. I don't think there's any one "right" answer.

We could post anecdotes all day long without being able to dispute what presumably are averages reflective of typical driving. I'm not sure how close to real-world numbers CR has gotten, but they look pretty good for comparing the various models.

Your point might have been better served, though, by posting fleet averages for the various makers, rather than model by model. Or perhaps weighted averages that reflect how many of each car is in operation? The Hummer is also conspicuously absent.

[DainBramaged]

146. I posted what CR printed, nothing more

and people who would normally throw CR in my face got all upset that their vaunted Japanese godcars didn't do so well. CR isn't about to retract those ratings, and unless someone else with credibility post that comprehensive a test of that many models, their numbers are now the benchmark, for better or worse.

[avaistheone1]

163. As far as our experience with the Toyota Yaris they are wrong.

[Obamanaut]

121. In order to compare/contrast two lists of items, there must be two

lists - list A and list B - otherwise the list A is meaningless.

Oh, never mind, I just noticed who posted this.

[NoGOPZone]

126. I could have told you along time ago how CR got their gas mileage figures

but you wouldn't have listened.

[carlyhippy]

129. Xterra figure must have been taken while the driver was gunning it and taking corners on 2 wheels

I get 17 city and 20+ highway. It's not the best mileage, but for our needs it will do for the next 5 years.

I have a friend who has an Armada. That figure is a little low, but not by much

[spinbaby]

133. I was kind of wondering the same thing

They have the Prius listed at 42 mpg. The only time I get mileage that low is either when I make very short trips or drive in very cold weather. My normal mileage is a bit over 50. I got 66.2 mpg on my way to work this morning.

[carlyhippy]

134. holy moley, that is good!

wow, had we been able to all squeeze in a Prius (3 people of 5 over 6 ft tall), and what little I drive, I would only have to fill my tank once every few months haha. Let's see, with 30 miles a week, it would take 2 weeks to use a gallon of gas, so yeah, it would take a while.

[ItNerd4life]

131. Please don't bring facts into the debate. People want to believe

that japanese cars are much more efficient than American cars.

The mantra is: American car companies are crap (even though the cars are made by American Union workers).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. You know in what department Toyota does a better job than GM?

In the staying in business department.

[JVS]

137. LOL!

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

166. Better Chrysler and GM go bankrupt than Toyota and Honda.

Then I might be forced to drive one of their steaming piles of shit.

Besides, bankruptcy seems to have been the goals of GM and Chrysler for some time now. But sure. You be loyal to the companies that are destroying you.

[spoony]

149. In the DU fan club department?

Oh sorry I forgot it isn't chic to support domestic industry.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

154. I like to support the American consumer.

With the hard economy, it's tough to see Americans wasting their money on lemons.

[ContinentalOp]

161. also, marketing. That's essentially what DB is noticing...

and yet somehow he thinks that's a pointed criticism of the Japanese automakers!? :shrug: wtf.

[catzies]

136. This 25 yrs. Honda-only owner wasn't "Brainwashed by the Japanese marketing machine"

I was brainwashed by the continued reliablility and excellence that has marked my experience in only owning and only driving Honda Accords since 1985.

The worst one I ever had was my Ohio-built '98 which went through 2 transmissions and needed a third at 130K miles. I still owned it and drove it for 10 years -- then I got my '08 Japanese-built Accord.

[DainBramaged]

140. And I bet you boycott WalMart!

[sarcasmo]

139. Bookmarked for future need to combat stupidity.

[BlueIris]

141. Thanks. I'm in the position of having to buy a new car this year,

so I appreciate a DU.com perspective.

[Godhumor]

144. Full Consumer Report rankings here (OP's point is not supported by the article)

Seriously, this article has domestics performing well behind imports:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/buying-advice/best-worst-cars-review/best-worst-fuel-economy/best-and-worst-fuel-economy.htm

Japanese cars won 8 of 10 categories while European imports won the other 2--Complete shut out for domestics.

Domestics had the worst performer in 9 of 10 categories.

Not sure what you were hoping to do about debunking the myth when the actual CR article supports it pretty solidly.

[DainBramaged]

147. You too missed the point.

I just posted their MPG figures, nothing more. And since you think it's something completely different, start your own thread! I'll make sure I'm there to attack it and spew the wrong information.

[Godhumor]

151. *Edited* Your point was "Look! Import mileage is not great!"

You then took data from a CR list to prove your point. What I posted is the complete list fron that issue. What it shows is, yeah, foreign cars perform better in gas mileage than domestics across all vehicle types. In fact, domestics, fron the list, dominate the worst performers.

In essence the article you posted to make your point actually makes the opposite.

On Edit: If you're just saying that every Japanese vehicle is not a better performer, well, yeah--I agree with that. Just stating that imports, including European, performed better overall.

[DainBramaged]

155. (sigh) never mind

I guess you don't understand the phrase 'halo effect'?? I'm not trying to make my point, make what you will 0f whatever you want.

BELIEVE the Japanese only make 50MPG cars and trucks, BELIEVE CR is the bible for all things you buy.

Believe that Toyota and Honda haven't been bailed out by the Japanese government.

believe what ever you want to believe.

DU hates American cars, that's what I believe, and this thread reinforced my opinion more than before.

[Godhumor]

159. I don't think you'll find anyone on this thread that believes Japan only makes 50 mpg plus cars

I certainly don't. I do believ that your article does make the point that by type of car imports are still more fuel efficient as they have been for quite awhile. I hope that cars like the Malibu Hybrid changes this reality and that gas mileage, as a measure, approaches parity in the proper direction (i.e. higher mpg).

I drive American. My last four cars have been 2 Fords, a Dodge and a Buick. For me, that comes first, but I just think the point you were trying to make was done with the wrong source or in the wrong way. That's it.

[ContinentalOp]

160. The halo effect is pretty much irrelevant.

Car buyers are looking for an INDIVIDUAL CAR, not buying into an entire lineup. Because you're in love with GM you assume that people who buy Japanese cars are similarly fanatical. I think that's probably rare. Japanese cars simply aren't that exciting as I'm sure you would agree. People buy them for boring, rational reasons like price, efficiency, etc. If something better comes along they'll switch. It's not the old school Chevy vs. Ford religious war mentality.

But to the extent that a halo effect does apply, I will agree with you that the American automakers did a terrible job marketing themselves over the past few decades. If all it takes is making one efficient car to give your company a "green" image, then why the hell didn't GM do that? Make some token high-efficiency car that competes with the Prius on MPG stats as a loss leader to improve the overall brand image. I mean, this is all sort of crazy talk. You're essentially criticizing Toyota for having a better business strategy than GM!?

[JVS]

162. Oh noes! The ugly truth!

[JuniperLea]

156. I get 30 mpg every tank...

In my 2002 Mazda Protege... every tank. I track every drop of gas, thanks to my car-nut father:) But then that car-nut taught me to drive, and to brake, properly... not like the idiots you see on the freeway who use their brakes all the time instead of just letting off the accelerator a tad. Idiots. I get good mileage on my brakes and tires too.

[TZ]

165. My TOYOTA CELICA (with a Camry engine)

Gets 30 MPG in the city and almost 40 on the highway. Would you like to find me an american SPORTS CAR that gets the same mileage? Cause you won't.