Tolerance vs. Acceptance

[Fountain79]

When looking at the issue of GLBT equality I find myself running into my own prejudices on the issue. I'd be a complete liar to say that I view a married homosexual couple in the same light as a married heterosexual couple. The same for a homosexual couple raising a child vs. a heterosexual couple. Still I then ask the question...Should that matter? Should it matter how I feel or others feel rather than equality being on the table. In the end what is more valuable: That more people accept homosexuality as equal in their minds and heterosexuality or that people agree that regardless of what they think homosexuals should receive equal treatment under the law.

[Skittles]

1. just curious but

why don't you view them "in the same light"? I do.

[Fountain79]

2. I don't know....

I know that is a cop-out answer...call it social conditioning...call it family influence...call it plain old ignorance...I just see it that way..

[Skittles]

3. it's good you're honest with yourself

that's a good starting point

[TheWatcher]

4. At least you admit it.

I don't care how you "see it".

Bigotry is Bigotry.

Get past it.

[Fountain79]

5. What if I don't?

That's kind of original point of the post. Should that matter as much as fighting for the right for homosexual couples to marry and adopt on the same level as heterosexual couples? Should tolerance come before acceptance or does it have to be a package deal?

[TheWatcher]

7. It's not an argument as far as I'm concerned.

Homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals period.

End of discussion.

It doesn't matter if you can handle it or not.

I don't care if you don't, can't, or won't.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I'm in a sore mood regarding this subject today.

I'm not sure if it CAN be a package deal.

Intolerance will ALWAYS be. there is no way to extinguish it.

It should not prevent one people from having the same rights as others.

[bluestateguy]

8. I see what the OP is saying

I know quite a few people who use words like "fag" and "queer", and crack anti-gay jokes with some regularity, yet they find a way to separate that kind of locker room talk from their beliefs about gay marriage, gays in the military and employment discrimination. In fact, I think the fact that they favor gay marriage, gays in the military and ENDA makes them feel like they have the right to make such slurs about gays in private conversations.

But as I always have said, policies matter most.

[Fountain79]

9. You don't have to care....

What I think in my head about the matter has no bearing on your life beyond this forum...however voting against measures that are meant to take away such a right and supporting candidates who would confirm it as a right might be more important.

[libnnc]

10. I am so not in the mood for this crap tonight

Sorry that my existence has put you in such a moral dilemma :eyes:

[Fountain79]

12. Well...at least I am being honest about it

sorry..should have checked your mood before I posted this...

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWatcher]

15. You should have KNOWN people were going to react like this.

Come on, you can't tell me you weren't expecting that kind of reaction.

[TheWatcher]

14. Bigotry is Bigotry, I think he understands that, and it's up to him to get past it.

I could care less about his moral dilemma.

IF somehow we can get the Policy in place that will make his "moral dilemma" irrelevant, that works for me.

Like I said it's not even an argument for me.

Equal Rights for ALL.

It shouldn't even BE a moral dilemma.

Some people just aren't ready to shed their conditioning.

To that I say "Tough Shit."

Nobody's "moral dilemma" should dictate what rights people have.

[TheWatcher]

11. It doesn't have any bearing on my life PERIOD.

You're welcome to your issues and I hope you can get past them.

As far as your second point, I agree.

I do see what you are saying.

Like bluestateguy said below, Policy is more important.

Good Luck dealing with your "moral dilemma"

My heart bleeds for you. :eyes:

[hfojvt]

24. as I suspected. If you don't or can't or won't

then you will neither be accepted or tolerated, because you are totally evil, just like Hitler.

[bluestateguy]

6. Acceptance is more desirable than tolerance, but tolerance is better than intolerance

People say they don't want to be "tolerated", but accepted. That makes sense, but from some Americans all you are going to get is tolerance, and that is better than intolerance and hatred. And maybe in due time some some of the "tolerant" people will slowly move toward acceptance.

[imdjh]

18. I think we all do some tolerating without acceptance.

I really do. Let's face it- unless you are the coolest most "whatever" person in the world, you probably have some feeling one way or another about another group of people that is inconsistent with your philosophy. It's the difference between prejudice and discrimination.

A good example for me, is religion. Largely due to the likes of the Falwells, the Mormons, the Knight Of Columbus, the Moslems, and a trainload of others I am to the point when someone in real life merely mentions God or prayer I have a physical reaction. I feel contempt. I know that under most circumstances this person is not trying to evoke such a response from me. I know that I need to relax, pull my claws back, and not react unless it's called for. But I am not accepting this person's identity with his religion- I am tolerating it. I am tempted to blurt out something like, "Oh for Christ's sake- don't you know where that stuff comes from and what it's for?" But not only is that impolite, it's not really productive.

[libnnc]

16. bullshit thread

flamebait bullshit

[TheWatcher]

17. In his defense, AT LEAST it sounds like he's ATTEMPTING to deal with his Bigotry.

Which is more that can be said for a lot of people.

At the same time, Bigotry is not an excuse for denial of rights.

PERIOD.

Maybe he should have had this discussion with himself.

People are fed up.

And they should be.

[imdjh]

19. it's new, it takes some getting used to

New is new; it takes some getting used to. Just hearing a man refer to his husband is something of a brain-screw; it's new, it takes some getting used to. Personally, I'm not sure I'm going to get used to it or that I like the designation. Why? Well, I'm older than God, and for the better part of my life when a gay man used the word "husband" it was in a campy way. "Oh baby! There goes my next husband!" or making references to several, perhaps dozens of former "husbands" who weren't husbands at all, or even cohabitants. Some people would probably be upset that I think that cohabitation is expected in marriage. Some people are just a lot more sophisticated than I am. I'd like to have a new word for same sex spouse- but the perfect one hasn't presented yet.


I have a relative who takes his marriage to his male spouse very seriously. I have no problem with that. What strikes me oddly, is that he refers to his spouse's relations as his relations, and since he's my relation then I get stuck on trying to figure out who the hell he's talking about. He'll say, "Oh, I saw my nephew last week, he's grown up so much." I'm confused, because his only nephew (in my book) is in his late 20's and is not welcome in his home. It's new, it takes some getting used to.

[ColbertWatcher]

20. Here's a story that should help ...

Dozens gathered for a memorial service organized by the youngsters’ foster father to honor the memory of Katherine Lee, the mother of 15-year-old twins Shane and Patrick; Emily, 14; and Grace, 12.

(...)

Lee, a 46-year-old employee of a Venice moving and storage company, was stricken with a heart attack at the family’s North Hollywood home. Although the children quickly called 911 and Patrick followed directions from the emergency operator and performed CPR until paramedics arrived, their mother died later at UCLA Medical Center.

A family friend took in the four children until her landlord demanded that they leave by Feb. 1. The eviction order prompted a counselor at Fairfax High School, where Shane and Patrick are students, to launch a frantic campaign to find a place for the four to live before they were swept into the county’s 51,000-child foster-care system.

(...)

Within a few days, the search turned up Glynn, who heard about the children through a gay fathers support group called Pop Luck. Because the 41-year-old television writer was already adopting an 8-year-son, Iby, he was certified as a foster father. The Lee children moved immediately into his five-bedroom West Adams District home.

--http://articles.latimes.com/2002/sep/15/local/me-orphans15">Los Angeles Times, 2002

Defying all odds, they have remained a family.

The four Lee siblings were together again in the rambling West Adams district house they’ve come to call home. The elder three had come back from college to celebrate the 18th birthday of their youngest sister – and to celebrate their good fortune at being rescued by total strangers when they were orphaned six years ago.

(...)

“We stayed a family. That’s the most important thing. We became a strong family,” said Shane, now 21 and a junior majoring in communications at San Francisco State. “We used to be individuals. Our dad helped our bond as a family grow.”

--http://articles.latimes.com/2007/dec/08/local/me-orphans8">Los Angeles Times, 2007

Please check out the links for the full story.

[imdjh]

21. Great story

Readers donated food, clothing and gift certificates. One signed over a 1999 Chevrolet Suburban large enough carry all of Glynn's instant family. Others donated desks and other furniture, a freezer and a king-size kitchen table. Los Feliz Costco store manager Kevin Green donated $300 a month in groceries in perpetuity.

Nearly $40,000 was contributed by readers to a college fund for the children. Donations continue to be accepted at "Lee Children's Irrevocable Trust," Merrill Lynch Private Client Group, 16830 Ventura Blvd. No. 601, Encino, CA 91436.

The Korean-American Federation of Los Angeles collected $4,000 for the youngsters, who share a Korean, Hawaiian, Samoan and Irish background. A Los Angeles couple, Steven and Suzie Cha, invited the children into their home and began taking them to Koreatown restaurants to introduce them to the Korean culture, according to Glynn.

These are the people and stories which restore the soul.

[ColbertWatcher]

22. Everytime there is a story about adoption, i post this story.

Because inevitably the issue of who is allowed comes up.

When I first heard of this family, I looked forward to the TV movie.

Still waiting ...

[imdjh]

23. With all the crap on Lifetime- you would think this would stand out as actually interesting

[ColbertWatcher]

25. I actually see it airing on one of the main networks, but alas ...

... that hasn't happened yet.

[Fountain79]

26. A chance to redirect....

I admit now that I didn't start this thread in the right manner to get the discussion that I was hoping for. I apologize, it was never my attention to offend anyone as I know this is a sincerely personal issue for many people here.

I guess my point of making this thread that perhaps the argument towards equality should start first with tolerance and then move to acceptance. When dealing with a strongly Christian person, it would difficult to argue that they should accept homosexuality as it does contradict their teachings. It would be as productive as trying to convince a vegan that eating meat is the way to go. A much more logical argument can be made that while they may not like it, a truly free society should allow a homosexual couple equal rights and privileges and that blocking such rights is tantamount to discrimination. It will take time for people like myself to get over bigotry, it shouldn't take any time for two men or two women who love each other to receive equal protection under the law.