Totally tired of talk about torture---It misses the point.

[panader0]

Is torture wrong? Of course. Should it be illegal and should those who use torture be prosecuted? Of course. Did the US use torture and was the bush White House complicit? Yes. What did Nancy know and when? Who cares. The whole point is being missed. It's the WAR.
bushco lied to the US people about the war and tried to use torture to support his lies. Why the war? Money, specifically energy money. The US uses more energy per capita than any country, or at least a lot more than we should. If there were no need for oil, there would be no involvement in the Middle East, no Taliban, no Al-Queda, no 9/11. Is torture an inhumane way to gather intelligence? Of course. That's just not where the focus should be. We need to live on this earth with all other peoples. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan should end immediately. Instead of bombs and bullets, we should extend a helping hand. I admit that I'm an idealist, but it's gotta start somewhere.

[Mike 03]

1. Okay, but do you not think we need to hold torturers accountable for their actions?

Can't we do both right things?

Do we have to choose between doing "one" right thing and doing "two" right things?

I respectfully think it is ridiculous to just ignore the torture aspect of the war.

It might be tiresome for you to think about torture, but think about the people who were tortured.

[panader0]

3. As i said in the OP--of course

But the whole issue of torture is just a piece of the real issue--War. I don't know if tiresome is the right word. It's just that a million Iraqis are dead, 4000 plus Americans, and on and on. End the wars, reduce our invovlement in the Middle East. Make peace.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

2. If you want to live on this earth with other people people and extend a helping hand

and be an idealist, and replace bombs and bullets, and want to start somewhere, then ENDING TORTURE is the logical first place to begin. I think ending torture is a more realistic and attainable goal than ending war. In fact, I stupidly thought that all the enlightened, modern civilizations in the world HAD ended torture, although I had no illusions about ending war

Someone, somewhere may be shivering, bleeding, beaten and naked. Would you allow someone else to proclaim that they were doing that on your behalf, in order to keep you safe? Not me.

I'm sorry, but I see you as being far from an idealist.

[panader0]

5. Did you not read where I said it was wrong and needed to be

dealt with? But it's more of a symptom of the problem than the REAL problem.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

6. What I noticed the most was you saying you were "tired" of torture discussion

Ennui and torture just don't go together.

Again, torture is a pretty bright line that is easy or should be easy to take a moral stance about. It's an easier nut to crack than war in general , in my belief.

I know we're on the same side and I do understand your larger point. But often, symptoms can be controlled even when the underlying disease can't be.

[sammythecat]

4. Yes, it misses THAT point.

There are others. Can't they be dealt with as well?

How we treat prisoners, how we have treated prisoners, and how we will be expected to treat prisoners in the future is a very serious issue. The solution has to be more than a promise we won't do it again.

Credible allegations of unethical behavior by our Democratic leaders is an issue that needs resolved one way or the other. Isn't it? (and please note that I said credible allegations)

If both wars ended yesterday we'd still be left with these two issues. As well as ten dozen others.

[bemildred]

7. The torture issue happens to be an excellent way to hold the perpetrators of the war accountable. nt

[ogoodman]

8. if Cheney and Co want to defend it...

If people like Dick Cheney believe so strongly that we needed to torture in order to save lives, then Cheney should have enough courage to be willing to go to jail because he feels that sacrifice is so important to his country. He should just say he broke the law because he needed the answers to save lives, and he is now willing to take punishment, but humanity needed to be saved and he is willing to sacrifice himself. But I really do not think Cheney is going in that direction. A good leader would take responsibility and face the consequences. but apparently Cheney thinks he's above that.

[walldude]

9. Information was released today showing that Cheney directly

ordered that people be tortured to get them to link Al-Quada and Iraq. While I know it's going to go slow, eventually all the crimes of the Bush administration will come to light through these torture investigations. Should they ever get started.