#1 Ranked Diary @ DailyKos Today: Obama Makes Terrible Mistake by Not Releasing Pictures (by Cenk)

[ihavenobias]

By Cenk Uygur

This is an unbelievable moment. Dick Cheney's PR offensive over the last month actually worked. Barack Obama just crumbled and will follow Cheney's command to not release the new set of detainee abuse pictures.

By the way, if you hadn't figured it out by now, that's why you saw every Cheney in the world on television arguing that torture works and that releasing more information would gravely harm the troops. They weren't worried about what was already released; they were worried about what was going to get released. They were trying to pre-empt the most damaging thing of all - the pictures that show the torture.

Just talk about torture doesn't really do it for the American people. But when they see pictures, they get it. That's why Bush had to apologize profusely and throw a few low-level soldiers under the bus when the Abu Ghraib pictures came out. You think there would have been anywhere near that level of controversy or accountability (such that it was) without the pictures?

How many Americans have heard of Bagram Air Base and how we tortured people to death there? A scant few. How many would have heard of it if there were pictures of detainees shackled from the ceiling in a Palestinian hanging or bleeding to death? Pictures are worth a billion words.

You know why? Television! If something isn't on television, it didn't happen. And television producers are obsessed with visuals (makes some sense since it's a visual medium, but their obsession winds up dumbing down the news if there aren't any pictures or video to go along with an important story).

Television has a multiplier effect. on how we beat a man named Dilawar to death at Bagram just sits there and whoever reads it, reads it. And then, it's done. On television stories spread and multiply and get spread to other channels and other mediums. Television doesn't just report the news; it decides what the news is.

So, that is what this whole fight has been about - the pictures. And now Obama adopted Cheney's position that it endangers national security to release the pictures and he will be saddled for the rest of time with the obligation to fight Cheney's battle for him. And anytime any reasonable person makes a case that as a free and open democracy we should know what our government did, the right-wing will counter with, "Even Obama thinks it endangers national security!"

The reason why this is such a maddening argument is that it is so f'in obvious that the real problem isn't releasing the pictures; it's what we did in the pictures. The argument that Obama so stupidly accepted just now shifts the blame from the people who committed the abuse to the people who want to uncover it and put an end to it.

If you released the pictures and show how , there would be no more torture debate. Everyone could see with their own eyes the horrific results of torture. Now instead, Obama has not just protected the torturers, but empowered them. They now get to claim they tried to protect America and that anyone who tries to show their misdeeds endangers America.

The that Obama listened to his generals on this. Yes, who put Gen. David Petraeus and Gen. Ray Odierno in their current positions? Oh yes, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Very fair and balanced advice you would get from them. This isn't about protecting the troops; it's about protecting their own behinds. They might have been in the chain of command that allowed this abuse to happen. Expecting unbiased advice from them is ridiculous.

Now, it looks to the rest of the world that we are trying to hide something, that we have not turned over a new leaf, that it is the same old lies and duplicity - and that Obama is on it. This was colossally stupid.

And to add insult to injury, we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that Dick Cheney still runs DC no matter how unpopular and despicable he is. He still has the Democrats eating out of his hand. Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

There should be an overwhelming Democratic and media revolt over this decision. The Democrats cannot be like the Republicans and bow their heads at all of the president's decisions. They should fight him tooth and nail on this. Don't hold your breath. Other than Feingold and a few others, they will all immediately lay down.

But I come back to a question that keeps popping back up - are there any real journalists in this country? Has everyone become so obsessed with access and so cowed by possible governmental reaction that they don't actually do their job anymore? They seem so damn frightened by what the big, bad government might say about them.

If there's a real journalist in this country, they will get their hands on those pictures and release them to the world. We did what is in those pictures. The longer we cover it up, the more culpable we all become. Not showing the pictures doesn't make the reality of what happened go away. It only aids and abets the torturers who did the crimes and stained this country's name. They should all be thrown into the sunlight. This is what the press is supposed to do...

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to DIGG this to make sure more people see it.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Kick (in the pants for Obama) & Rec

[ihavenobias]

104. There is a new AOL Poll on the question...

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/05/14/hot-seat-detainee-photos/

As you can see, so far most people support Obama/Cheney/Hasselbeck, etc. I'm not saying anything, I'm just sayin'.

;)

[FiveGoodMen]

105. Sigh.

We're never going to get our country back.

[LibertyorDeath]

2. Rec Great Post!

"If there's a real journalist in this country, they will get their hands on those pictures and release them to the world."

Hope someone does the right thing...

[choie]

11. Didn't Sy Hersh have the photos?

He's talked about them before. Why can't he leak them?

[Echo In Light]

12. From what I recall during the talk he gave where he announced he'd watched the videos

...it was just that, that he'd seen them and was visibly shaken - however, I seriously doubt he's in possession of them, and I'm certain there's been a lot of pressure on him to keep quiet. That's all just speculation tho...

[ihavenobias]

114. I'm behind on my podcasts of TYT and Hartmann...

but I thought I heard some were leaked?

[pleah]

3. K&R!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Thrill]

4. This has nothing to do with Cheney. Cenk is the only one giving Cheney any credit

Obama's decision likely has more to do with his own feelings on the situations and the hearing from Commanders

[ihavenobias]

24. What if McCain had won the election...(?)

I think we can be confident that McCain would've made the same decision. And obviously that doesn't necessarily mean it's the right or wrong decision.

But to those who agree with Obama on this, ask yourself honestly if you'd have the same reaction to President McCain denying release of the photos *with the exact same reasoning*. Don't respond reflexively, really think about it.

[The Hope Mobile]

36. I think Obama's been letting things come out slowly. I think he will

continue to do so. If McCain had not allowed this (and I know that he wouldn't have) it would've been just one of many things he had hidden completely and that would be infuriating.

[ihavenobias]

38. Maybe, but this raises Glenn Greenwald's excellent question.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5650705

[The Hope Mobile]

41. It could if that's what this was about but its definitely not that for me.

I have made complaints about how he has handled things on a number of occasions but in this case I agree that visuals could put us in a worse position. I think we need to be honest about what happened and I think some visuals should be out there so that there's no question that these guys need to be prosecuted and convicted. I do think that this could seriously worsen foreign relations. We've already admitted that what they did was seriously wrong and I'm rarely a fan of not putting everything out there but this seems a little more complex than that. If we already know that children were sodomized then we know that is only scratching the surface. That's plenty enough to convict but why make our nation look even worse/less safe by forever imprinting in the minds of individuals and countries that have been leaning towards never forgiving us and/or nuking us already and maybe aren't stable enough to understand that while most of us would never have agreed to what they did there without our knowledge or permission we couldn't really do anything about it. We weren't just the good Germans but they may clump us together. It might just be that very last straw to put somebody over the edge. I don't want to see more innocent people's lives ruined by what they did.

I understand your point. I hope you will consider mine and we can agree to disagree.

[JDPriestly]

67. McCain would have made that decision because of his military

background. Face it, Obama did this to please some of the generals. We have become a military state. This is the end of the dream of Adams, Jefferson and Madison who strongly warned us against having a standing army. Now, the generals and the needs of the military determine our policy.

I support our troops wholeheartedly, but when our government cannot be honest and open with us and the world about a fundamental violation of a human right, when a government fears prosecuting crimes, international war crimes, when the commander in chief is overruled by a group of generals, then we need to ask ourselves "Who is in charge here?" Is our government "by the People," or "by the generals?"

Or is it really a triumvirate at this point? Goldman Sachs, the military and Obama.

[Doremus]

72. This is a legitimate question.

At first I was outraged but I've since reconsidered. I truly believe Obama made this decision after much soul searching, NOT for political expediency.

If a decision I made caused physical harm or even death to another, I would be devastated. Call me naive, but I think Obama changed his mind for the same reason.

Whether it's the correct decision is of less importance to me than his motivation for making it. This has nothing to do with politics; unlike the devil spawn that preceded him, this president has a beating heart.

Having said that, I do hope the ACLU takes this to the SC and he is forced to release them.

[T Wolf]

93. His decision to keep 50,000 troops indefinitely in Iraq and expand the war against Afghanistan has

already cost more lives. And will cost many more in the future.

So, your argument doesn't stand up.

[Jennicut]

79. I would be just as disappointed in McCain as I am with Obama but I am

jumping for joy that Obama is our Prez and McCain was not.

[Echo In Light]

5. K&R

[DUlover2909]

6. K & R

:kick:

[G_j]

7. should be #1 here too -R

[Individualist]

16. Agree; it should be

Have you noticed all the *look over here, not over there* posts that have popped up? The apologists/spinners are pulling out all the stops today.

[Wetzelbill]

8. K&R

[Seldona]

9. Not much to say about this.

Except to say it SUCKS. Is that all the right-wing needs to do is trot out The Penguin to squawk his nonsense to get us to lay down?

Fuck that!

[Echo In Light]

10. ...and with friends like these...

[Uncle Joe]

13. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, ihavenobias.

[mmonk]

14. Thanks as usual.

[marlakay]

15. My husband thinks Obama is doing a head fake

that he knows the pics and other torture stuff will come out because people are fighting for it but with all the economy stuff going on he doesn't want to be seen as spending too much time on this.

Even saying he isn't going to do it will outrage people so much they will fight harder to make it happen.

My husband says its all part of Obama's plan to let it happen and not pay for it politically.

I hope he is right.

[jgraz]

18. Pardon me, but I'm tired of this "head faking"

He's either fucking with us or fucking with the Pugs. Either way, I don't care. Obama needs to just stand up and lead.

[Somawas]

39. Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way!

[jgraz]

44. Yes, except he doesn't get to follow or get out of the way.

[howmad1]

45. I'm beginning to think we just voted us a real.........

.....slick and smooth con artist for president. Some of his decisions lately are making me less and less enamored with this guy.

[ima_sinnic]

60. . . .

"con artist" is the term that comes to my mine more & more lately, also.

doesn't he ever get tired of "playing the middle" and never taking a real stand on anything? I distinctly remember a lone-voice-in-the-wilderness DUer from Illinois or even Chicago itself warning during the primaries that that was the real Obama, a noncommittal politician who would do whatever was expeditious but never really jeopardize his own political career. I'm seeing that the repukes had a point about those noncommittal votes in the Senate. Of course, my first choice was Kucinich--I came along kicking and screaming with Obama and even started believing the bullshit.

How does a "constitutional scholar" (that and "community organizer" were the traits that won me over, finally) justify ignoring the "rule of law"? does he experience any cognitive dissonance whatsoever??

[TankLV]

64. And to think too many here call the other guy "Slick Willie"....

Clinton's an AMATURE compared to this shit...!!!

[ChiciB1]

75. I'm SOOOOOO Sorry To Say This, But I Agree With You... Con Artist Seems Correct!

All these photo ops, with hamburgers and dogs look so so "apple pie American" but it is solving NOTHING!!

I can only wish that I will eat my words, but for now I'm so overwhelmingly upset AND disappointed! And the Democrats in Congress are just as "wimpy" as they were when Repukes ruled! Very few Democrats seem to even consider "we the people" anymore. WE ARE THE FOOLS for thinking that by voting "the other way" that it was going to make a difference. I'm worn out & tired of being taken for granted, but realize these people will keep being elected time and time again!

Without a SERIOUS, SERIOUS, monumental movement of some type, it AIN'T GONNA CHANGE!! And what kind of movement is possible? I doubt anyone knows or those that do know can't get it off the ground! DC KNOWS this and they must be clinking their bourbon or scotch glasses every night!

CHANGE... what a word!!! And so many of us fell all over it AGAIN!!!

[Somawas]

102. Liberals and Progressives "settled."

Obama's no liberal. He's a great deal better than McCain,but not a liberal.

Do you want to become ideologically pure? Ready to vote Green?

[jgraz]

106. I won't go that far, especially after the nastiness of the primary

Honestly, I just don't think the guy is quite as brilliant or courageous as his most ardent fans think he is. He may end up as one of our greatest presidents but, at the end of the day, he's still an American politician. There's only so much we can expect from them.

[JVS]

55. Agreed. This "head fake" stuff also really isn't being No Drama either.

[JDPriestly]

68. Hope so.

It's possible because the normal thing to do would be to make some sort of deal with the ACLU before announcing this. That is why I am wondering whether he is either just going to let the court decide and comply in the end after many appeals, whether Attorney General Holder is considering prosecutions and Obama wants to safeguard important evidence or whether Obama is really giving in to the objections of the generals.

Remember, some of the ex-detainees have already published detailed stories of their torture, humiliation and suffering. The pictures would have a strong effect in the United States, but in Afghanistan and Iraq, the narratives are probably being read over and over and discussed in detail.

One of the stories I read was that of a religious leader, I believe in Iraq, who told of his capture and brutal treatment. Just imagine how many Americans would read, re-read and discuss a similar story told by a Christian missionary somewhere in the world. We wouldn't need pictures. The story itself would be very moving to us. So, the withholding of the pictures is not to lessen the anger in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Pakistan, but to prevent a moral outcry here in the U.S. The pictures are being withheld from us, not from the Afghanis and Iraqis.

[defendandprotect]

87. Well, I'll believe it when I see it, but "politically" it sure isn't helping Obama with Dems . . .!!

As you can pretty much see from the threads on this today and yesterday --

Happily, Dems seem to want to see our laws enforced -- and people persecuted for

crimes -- even behind the ruse of war!!!

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theFrankFactor]

29. Our Expectations Get Lower and Lower and Lower and Lower...

[leftofthedial]

42. And he keeps re-setting the bar

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

63. You forgot, defending Domestic Spying and increasing executive power.

[JDPriestly]

69. And we don't seem to be seeing much progress when it comes

to alternative energy. That seems to kind of be taking a back seat.

[defendandprotect]

89. How about the homeless still with us -- and the 40 million now in poverty!!!

How about re-regulation of corrupt capitalism . . . ?

How about Single Payer -- ???

Global Warming is the most urgent problem and he should be raising the awareness

of the public on this --

Also, still too many Repugs in DOJ -- and too many DLC'ers in administration!!!

[defendandprotect]

88. Be disgusted . . . but don't give up the fight to make Congress/Obama do the right thing--!!!

Keep battering them -- !!!

[Butch350]

19. No they don't need to be released to the world.

What a group of morbid people. You are all just rubber neckers - can't pass a wreck without oogling. tisk tisk.

[Mari333]

21. its more morbid to continue the rape, murder, and torture of people

in the countries we are occupying. its morbid and brutal. you condone that when you dont want the truth to come out.

[Luminous Animal]

22. So broadcast images of the Vietnam war

were to satisfy rubberneckers?

Images of the holocaust were to satisfy rubberneckers?

I don't think so. This is not simply a wreck. This is an atrocity that has been done in our name and we need to not only see what type of behavior in which we've been complicit, but we need to be revolted and outraged.

The fucking torture apologists have carried the day on the narrative. Fully 50% of the U.S. public now believe that torture is a necessary evil. These pictures will blow that narrative to smithereens and rationality, compassion, and demands to uphold rule of law will ensue.

[ihavenobias]

30. I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm. n/t

[defendandprotect]

90. IMO, that kind of thinking is simply cover . . .

for people who really don't want to know what has been going on in this country . . .

and internationally. And who most of all don't want prosecutions of officials.

America is the "terrorist," as the UN has so well defined us.

Perhaps they should not, either, have had the Nuremberg Trials -- and maybe not

either marched Germans thru the concentration camps! They were just "ogling" . . .!!!

Americans need to be awakened to reality -- and stop running from it.

[libodem]

20. Not particularly noteworthy?

What's that supposed to mean? I'm sick of carrying water for the past Administration.

[WillyT]

23. Big K & R !!!

:kick:

:mad:

[Wednesdays]

25. K&R

:kick:

[OhioChick]

26. K&R

:kick:

[CherylK]

27. K & R!!!

:applause: :patriot:

[theFrankFactor]

28. We Are Being Punked... Yet Again

THE FRANK FACTOR SHOW
http://media.switchpod.com/users/jd/TheFrankFactor18051109.mp3

[MasonJar]

31. How can he refuse to release the photos when the court has ruled they

are to be released and he did not even appeal the ruling? Do we have another EXECUTIVE BRANCH RULES president in contravention of our Constitution? He had better be planning to hope to reopen the appeals process because otherwise he is disobeying the ruling of the court, which CONSTITUTIONALLY is equal to the president. He would, therefore, be placing himself above the law, BUSHISTA fashion.

[Oldtimeralso]

32. K & R and want to help find the truth. n/t

[DU GrovelBot]

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[lostnotforgotten]

34. Obama Massive Fail - Torture Cover Up - So Much For Transparency We Can believe In

eom

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

35. right now he's doing what Bush would do, but being polite about it

Bush was in your face f- you about everything, but Obama is still bombing civilians in
Afghanistan, there's still an endless war in Iraq, and now Obama is set to give Insurance companies a new heavily subsidized hand out that has them slobbering all over themselves.

Obama better get real, cause he's off the track right now.

[Alcibiades]

37. If they are so awful that they will provoke such a strong response

then they must be seen. They claim that there's nothing new here. How are we supposed to judge that, exactly? Are these abuses, or atrocities?

The argument put forward by Gibbs today is a non-starter. It's claimed that our enemies will hate us more if these photos are seen, but so what? Don't they hate us anyway? Aren't they already doing all they can? Sure, they used the "our troops are in more danger" line, but so what? Aren't they armed, and trained to deal with "danger?" And isn't being in an interminable occupation of an Arab country already pretty dangerous? How much dangerous can it get? It's not as if Al Queda and the Taliban are not already pissed off to a maximum amount. And why do they get a say anyway? Why should we not follow our own laws, simply because we are afraid of what Al Queda will do? Is that how we roll?

[file83]

48. Either show the pictures, OR prosecute Bush/Cheney.

To do neither is aiding and abetting. I agree with you.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. I'm just disgusted

Never trust a prejudiced religionist posure. Ever. They have no ethical core.

[Amonester]

43. There is no doubt now: "they" WILL BE BACK one day...

Yep. "the repiglican war criminals" will find a way to come back.

What a terrifyingly sad day for this world this one is.

may the 13th 2009 :cry:

[matthewf]

46. k&r

[upi402]

47. Obama is a better Republican than Clinton was n/t

All Hail The Uniparty

[IntravenousDemilo]

49. Perhaps Feingold and those others should do something, well, drastic.

And by that, I mean they should threaten to sit as Independents in the Senate until the President comes to heel, and abstain on all government bills and processes such as cloture. Whoops, there goes your filibuster-proof majority right there, even when Al Franken is seated!

The power of the Imperial Presidency has been strengthened too much during the Bush regime. It's time for the legislative branch to wrest back power from the executive and put it where it belongs.

Bad things deserve to happen electorally to politicians who promise one thing and deliver another.

[Hippo_Tron]

52. Ummm that makes no sense whatsoever

If Feingold sat as an independent he would still vote for cloture on progressive legislation. Otherwise he would be hindering progressive legislation and I doubt he would want to do that. He would also lose his committees which would render him completely powerless as a senator.

It's not about having 60 Democrats in the senate it's about having 60 "not Republicans". The reason for that is that the Republican Party has a vested political interest in seeing Obama's agenda not get through the senate. Anybody who is not a member of the Republican Party, ideology aside, is going to be more likely to vote for cloture on Obama's bills due to the sheer fact that they are not members of the Republican Party.

And I don't see Russ threatening to become a Republican anytime soon.

[BlueMTexpat]

50. K&R!

:kick:

I will only give Obama a pass on this decision if his DOJ begins mass criminal prosecutions of the Bushistas, beginning with Cheney and Dubya (remember he was the "Decider" whether he actually knew the extent to which he "decided" or not).

I can see an argument that the release of these photos puts our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan in more danger, but IMO that is also just another good reason to get them the heck out of there ASAP. Those who approved these policies should have remembered that's the principal reason why we signed international conventions against torture in the first place.

But if there are no serious, meaningful and effective prosecutions of these blatant war criminals, then Obama and all who allow this to happen become complicitous. I personally will not stand down on this one. As for Repug threats that Dems were also in on the decisions, let the evidence go where it may and let ALL involved pay the price, regardless of so-called political affiliation.

We weren't so squeamish at Nuremberg or in the Far East after WWII ... or is it just that when crimes are committed against US or our "friends" (or at least the side that we choose to support) that they are heinous? That's very much what it looks like in the eyes of the world. That is not to say that all those who condemn us have clean hands. They most certainly don't and yes, they have their own crimes to deal with. But we have generally, in appearance at least, held ourselves to a high standard and even those who criticize us will admit that. Let us regain that high standard that has been so woefully tarnished, especially during the past eight years. We ARE better than that.

Bravo to Cenk and his supporters here and elsewhere! :applause:

[Turborama]

51. Thanks Tom & Cenk for helping me make my mind up about this

The key part for me was:

"The news reports will tell you that Obama listened to his generals on this. Yes, who put Gen. David Petraeus and Gen. Ray Odierno in their current positions? Oh yes, George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Very fair and balanced advice you would get from them. This isn't about protecting the troops; it's about protecting their own behinds. They might have been in the chain of command that allowed this abuse to happen. Expecting unbiased advice from them is ridiculous.

Now, it looks to the rest of the world that we are trying to hide something, that we have not turned over a new leaf, that it is the same old lies and duplicity - and that Obama is on it. This was colossally stupid.

And to add insult to injury, we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that Dick Cheney still runs DC no matter how unpopular and despicable he is. He still has the Democrats eating out of his hand. Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic."

:kick: & R

[ShortnFiery]

58. Why is Gates (of Iran-Contra scandal) still the Sec Def?!? nt

[defendandprotect]

91. Gates was also a major player in the "October Surprise" . . .

Why? Obama seems to like Repugs more than Dems . . . ???

I think he was trying to save himself some backlash by Repugs who have

National Security as their blanket -- keeping Gates may have given him

some temporary cover? But I hate it!!!

Especially the 51 AGs still in the DOJ!!!

Re the October Surprise -- that, of course, was TREASON of the highest order!!

And it was kind of a replay because Nixon also did an "October Surprise" on LBJ/Humphrey

where they kept the peace negoations from going forward after LBJ stopped the bombing.

[fasttense]

53. He just said what I've been saying but he said it better. n/t

[Soylent Brice]

54. 1st sentence says it all:

"This is an unbelievable moment. Dick Cheney's PR offensive over the last month actually worked."

[90-percent]

56. Hey

My tax dollars paid for that fucking torture!

I have a right as a partial owner of that material to see it and do with it as I wish!

If this is what America now represents, let's shout it from the rooftops!

Let's proudly show the world what America stands for, shall we?

-90% Jimmy

[paparush]

57. Some Patriot will release this EVIDENCE! nt

[malaise]

59. K & R

Looks like Cheney won this round.
Truth will out

[FourScore]

61. Obama's decision is devastating to his credibility.

This was the sort of thing I was afraid of while voting for him. I saw his presidency going one of two ways: he would be either a great president, or one who listens to his handlers. I believed he would be a great president. Now I am concerned.

[Joe Chi Minh]

62. Obama may well have been persuaded of this, but the reality seems to me to be

much more simple: they don't want to give up their "right" to torture, but (Out! Out damn spot!), they can't help feeling deeply, deeply ashamed and guilty about it, and can't bring themselves to face the contempt, anger and opprobium they already suffer, being further fanned by the revelation of those photographs, videos, etc. They would feel more personally vulnerable. After all, Abu Ghraib surely came close to plumbing the depths, why would new evidence impress a horrified world, never mind the terrorist minnows without armies more unfavourably?

Those days of relative innocence all seem an eternity ago now, but I remember hearing a Vietnam vet saying how as kids watching Saturday morning pictures, only the villains in black hats "bushwhacked" people. Of course, ambushes have always been a part of war, but we were the ones in WWII who didn't torture, were't we?

[winyanstaz]

65. Well now there is no doubt...we have been sold out

This proves Cheney & thugs still rule.
Nothing has changed..all they did was throw us a bone and do a lot of dancing around.
We still get no health care.
We still get no accountability.
We still get no justice.
We are still being screwed.
We are still torturing...if these crimes are not prosecuted and revealed to the public...nothing is to stop it from going on again.
The Neocons are still running the show. The people Bush appointed are calling the shots. Them and the Republicans still in office.
We have no main stream media..all we have are traitors there.
We are still sending billions to other nations while Americans sleep on the cement sidewalks of our cities.
We are still outsourcing our jobs.
We are still bailing out the rich and fucking the poor to death.
We have wonderful parties in Washington while the people weep in the streets and our troops and even the police are committing suicide at record rates.
Dem's are still ball-less except for Dennis.
This is NOT change we can believe in.
Same-ol...same-ol crap!

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

66. HUGE Mistake

or in the words of Turley, Bait N Switch president.


Personally about the photos, I have seen enough to know it wasn't some rouge soldiers, but apparently our president believes this has been investigated and prosecuted. If he actually thinks that this crime was an isolated and solved crime we know where the hope lies.


One term president.

[Raster]

70. I. Will. NOT. Be. An. Accomplice. To. War. Crimes!

Expose the rot, no matter how deep it goes!:kick:Not in MY name!

[OneBlueSky]

71. at the risk of being mercilessly flamed, what do folks think of . . .

Obama's point that releasing the photos would inflame anti-American passions around the world -- something he has been very successful at reducing during his short time in office? . . .

I've also thought the photos should be released, but the point he makes does give me pause . . . I'd be interested to hear what others think . . .

[ihavenobias]

74. While this doesn't make it false, it really bothers me that it was same argument made by Liz Cheney

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x312058

And Elisabeth Hasselbeck loved Obama'd decision BTW. Again, that doesn't mean it was a bad decision, but it does make you think.

[Lautremont]

77. As a non-American, I can tell you that my anti-American passions are inflamed more

by the appearance of craven cowardice and the dodging of moral responsibility than they would be by a set of pictures Obama himself described as "not sensational."

Showing these pictures to the world gives the impression of a country willing to face its missteps fully, and to work on making it right. Service people already have targets on their backs, so that argument's a non-starter. Hiding those pictures is a mistake compounding an outrage.

[defendandprotect]

95. Thank you -- it's what I thought, but good to see you confirm that -- !!!

I don't know how we'll ever find forgiveness in the world --

or how we will ever morally redeem ourselves after 20 years of bombing Iraq --

but it has to begin with Americans knowing the truth about this country, defying the

propaganda of America and capitalism and a superpower with no imperialistic agenda!!!

And it has to be followed by an America alarmed and shocked enough to demand

prosecution of all involved at the highest levels.

:)

[defendandprotect]

92. Actually, it would probably do the opposite . . .

America would be seen as being interested again in truth/reality -- and

stopping cover-ups.

The danger is not video/photos of torture, but the torture that the world

knows about but America is doing nothing about!

[Evoman]

99. That's a stupid argument.

The world WANTS Americans to get their heads out of their asses and see what they are doing. You think the Iraqis and all those people whose hearts and minds your trying to win don't already know this shit? THEY LIVE THIS SHIT!!

The rest of us are disgusted that Americans keep hiding from the truth. That they won't know the truth and they can keep thinking they are heroes and morally superior.

[MisterP]

100. it wouldn't enrage the Iraqis or Afghans--it would have AMERICANS calling for justice

a thing which is never on moderates' agendas. Those who would be inflamed have already heard through the grapevine what has been done to others, and many are presumably preparing their revenge or to drive out the dozen thousand "advisers" to be left behind (or, for that matter, the feckless national army that's letting citizens be evaporated at the behest of a foreign power: nobody likes that).
Anti-Americanism isn't monolithic: offense at Bush's imperiousness may've left in January, but disgust at the American Empire's ongoing butchering (or encouragement of intermittent butchering) of Afghans, Iraqis, Somalis, Pakistanis, and Palestinians probably continues. Those countries certainly wouldn't be reducing their anti-Americanism.

[pmorlan1]

73. "A Small Number of Individuals"

Obama made the wrong choice and I was particularly offended by this part of his statement:

"My belief is the publication of these photos would not add any additional benefits to our understanding of what was carried out in the past by a small number of individuals"

For me this is just a variation of the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld statement that it was just a few bad apples. Why is Obama morphing into Bush and Cheney?

[defendandprotect]

96. Excellent point . .. I didn't catch that --

[Kweli4Real]

76. I'm Sorry, but I don't get it ...

Other than to satisfy some voyeuristic urge , what would releasing the photos/videos to the public accomplish? We know the torture occurred. The photos/videos should only be brought to court under seal for the judge/jury to consider.

[ihavenobias]

81. I'm curious, but did you even read the original blog that was posted?

Be honest.

[defendandprotect]

97. You find pictures of torture stimulating in some "voyeuristic" way . . . ????

Don't judge others by yourself --

Those who would find some "voyeuristic" pleasure -- or even "porn" like stimulation as someone

else has warned -- are themselves perverted.

America needs to know exactly what has happened it in our name --

We need to know exactly what happened and ensure that those who brought this about are

prosecuted.

[ihavenobias]

111. Yep. n/t

[info being]

78. I said in the very beginning...

...If Obama wins the Presidency, there are only 2 possibilities:

1) He changes nothing, or
2) He does something and gets assassinated by the CIA

Seems he's chosen number 1.

[defendandprotect]

98. That may be the fact . . . however, we still have to live with the results . ..

Keep battering them and demanding progressive change -- !!!

Obama will want to be relected in 2012 . . .!!

So will the Dems . . .!!!

[florida08]

80. was torn

but now I understand the outrage. There's much I haven't known about the prior henchmen who held office and I thought I knew a lot. Apparently there's much more to know. I don't know what you call men like this but they should have happen to them what they have subjected others too. DEMAND the photos be released. Obama is wrong and it just might cost him. I think it just cost us. I was not aware about John Yoo's remarks.

On December 1, 2005, Yoo notoriously contended in a public debate that the legality of crushing a child's testicles "depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-seery/testicles_b_109687.html

edit for link
https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?JServSessionIdr010=i4xj8umno2.app23a&cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=1497

[valerief]

82. K&R

:kick:

[applegrove]

83. I was listening to CBC radio last night. They were interviewing a former American interrogator.

He said that after Abu Grave (sic?) many people they captured and questioned said they were inspired by those pictures to become insurgents.

I think that Obama wants to avoid that by not publishing the photos. And he is willing to take the political hit at home in order to avoid more chaos in the middle east.

[applegrove]

108. Abu Ghraib. My bad.

[swilton]

84. Showing these pictures doesn't tell the world

something that they don't already know. The prisoners, their families talk. This is a deliberate attempt to protect the higher ups and to conceal the crimes from the masses.

I long ago discontinued lowering the standard bar for O'bama just because we had 8 years of George Bush. I really see him as no different morally or ethically than any other politician - he just happens to have mastered the 'craft' of manufacturing and marketing his 'image' a little better. :nuke:

[shagsak]

85. We have become a nation of instant gratification

This story only broke earlier this week, and already people are up in arms and calling for Obama's instant action. Something I'm noticing from Obama is he actually thinks things through and typically has a purpose. He doesn't knee jerk too often. He also has more information than we do. We want the information and we want it ten minutes ago.

So many here at DU have jumped to the conclusion that he is covering up for Cheney/Bush. That's one of many conclusions but the most prevalent IMO. These conclusions are presumptive that we all know exactly what Barrack is thinking. However we don't. Of course we can speculate, we can debate and we can discuss, but in the end it's all conjecture.

We should push to get these photographs released. I (along with most here IMO) will not let fear control my actions anymore. I don't know why Obama is keeping the photographs suppressed, but I want to know and I am beside anyone who will push for an answer. Speculation is not fact and until the truth comes out, that's all it is.

If it turns out he is a co conspirator and no different than Bush, then I will jump on the Fuck Obama bandwagon with the rest of you.

[defendandprotect]

86. Thanks for the text--!! And, a "Wow" article by Cenk . . .!!!!!

I agree, the photos/video would have an impact that would, I hope, cause an
awakening among Americans - a demand for holding those at the top responsible.

Pelosi is still call for "truth hearings" -- and Obama is still against!!!

While I don't think any Repug should be in Obama's administration, Petraeus originally
called for ALL of this material to be released.

Great job -- and thanks again for text!

[underpants]

94. The O man is right on this

legally
security
and politics

[Bread and Circus]

101. meh...I think this is more about getting back at Bush and Cheney than anything else for some people.

I wish it were all about "justice" and doing the right thing but it seems like we are more obsessed and adamant about it now than when it was actually happening.

Our response to torture was ELECTING Obama. We did that. He's stopping or stopped the programs.

Frankly, I just want health care, improved manufacturing, and a greener economy. Yeah, torture is outrageous but throwing every neocon behind bars isn't going to improve much in any practical sense.

I think Cenk's anger is more about revenge than justice.

[ihavenobias]

109. That's insulting and dismissive.

Really, it's about "revenge"? Sorry, but that's complete and utter bullshit. In NO other area in life do people make such absurd claims regarding wanting to prosecute for a crime.

Prosecute an armed robber? Nah, just revenge. Prosecute a rapist? Nah, just revenge. Prosecute a murderer? Nah, just silly revenge.

[Bread and Circus]

112. If you want justice, equal justice, then you have to go after everyone

not just Bushco. And there is A LOT on the Democratic side of the aisle that would go down too.

But that's not what a lot of people want here. They just want to see Bush fry.

That's ok.

But let's just be honest.

[ihavenobias]

113. Amen.

It's also insulting and dismissive to suggest that this is a partisan issue. Bad policy is bad policy, period. It's not like I support NAFTA just because a Democratic president signed into law, and it's not like I support Geithner and Summers just because Obama picked them.

[Divine Discontent]

103. agreed - if Obama came out & said we ARE that good country again, and that's why these are being

released, so we never let it happen again - then it would be fine - otherwise, do they really think that people HELLBENT on torturing and killing Americans already, are somehow going to be affected by this? Yes, whatever they normally would do, they will now claim is because of what they saw in the pics - but we know it's because they hate America anyhow - and President Obama is making Cheney look - LIKE HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT....

big big mistake. :*(

[20score]

107. Glad to kick, even if I'm too late to rec.

[upi402]

110. "Bigger fish to fry" - but to fry fish, you have to turn up the heat first!

All I see is heads in the sand and propagandists telling us to "just chill", "Not moving us forward" - with regard to honoring the rule of law.

Pelosi is out, so lets go!

[NYC_SKP]

115. .

nt