My better half's father was in town. He's a fire-breathing conservative.

[Buzz Clik]

We disagree on about 75% of all political issues, but we agree that:

• Abortion should not be a political issue.
  
• Some conservatives are really smart.
  
• Some liberals are really smart.
  
• Enforcement of existing gun laws is far more important than making new laws.
  
• Service in the armed forces is basically an honorable thing to do, but even soldiers can be total losers and complete assholes.
  
• The extreme right and extreme left are harming this country.
  
• And, the big kicker: Sean Hannity is a blithering idiot.

:woohoo:

It's moments like these that make me bristle when DUers go on about all Republicans being inherently evil.

[abbeyco]

1. Sounds like my conversations with my Mom

except for the abortion thing.

I love her dearly, but she's a Rush/Bill-O acolyte and generally subscribes to all of their blather as fact.

It's good you and your BH-in-law (like that title?) can agree on certain things - it's probably your intelligence and progressive mind and his willingness to see more than one view on subjects that allows you to get along. Good for you!!! :toast:

[Buzz Clik]

7. Well, he's a great old man. We just are of a different political bent.

Worse than Bill-O, he thinks Glen Beck is a "genius."

I think I chipped a tooth forcing my mouth closed when he said that.

[Warpy]

2. My dad and I agreed to disagree when I was about 20

and managed to cope by not talking politics. He did once ask me what I had against the Republicans, and I replied, "They never did a damned thing for me or anybody else I know." That was the end of the conversation.

His last election was 2004 and he dropped my jaw when he said he was voting for Kerry. All he mentioned was the Swift Boat nonsense.

Most politically disengaged Republicans are decent enough, just wrong about nearly everything. It's not illegal to be wrong.

However, the party faithful are starting to drive them out, one by one, as being politically disengaged is no longer being tolerated and one has to be a fire breathing ideological purist to stay in that party.

It will be interesting to watch them over the next few years.

[Buzz Clik]

8. I thought we had the old guy all packaged and ready to vote for Obama. But, he bailed.

I still can't imagine anyone voting for McCain/Palin. Well, other than one of my brothers. And my sister. And my mom.

sweet jeebers.

[baldguy]

3. If...

Abortion should not be a political issue
- Then it has to be completely legal.

Some conservatives are really smart
- Then they should stand up & make the stupid ones shut up.

Some liberals are really smart
- Then they should continue to do what they're doing.

Enforcement of existing gun laws is far more important than making new laws
- except existing guns laws are so weak (because of NRA lobbying) they're ineffective.

Service in the armed forces is basically an honorable thing to do, but even soldiers can be total losers and complete assholes
- And some of their civilian "supieors" too

The extreme right and extreme left are harming this country
- What extreme left?

And, the big kicker: Sean Hannity is a blithering idiot
- & O'Rielly & Limbaugh & Palin & Ingram & Coulter & all of the current GOP leadership.

[aquart]

4. I see you have the intelligence to treat him with humanity and respect.

Or you never would have found out that much.

But, unfortunately, many on both sides find it necessary to demonize any opposition. Makes finding common ground REALLY difficult.

[Buzz Clik]

10. I know that some people are venomous when they talk politics in real life.

He's a good man and likes a spirited but civil debate.

[populistdriven]

5. here give him these quotes from a former slave

"Character, not circumstances, makes the man."
Booker T. Washington

"If you want to lift yourself up, lift up someone else."
Booker T. Washington

"You can't hold a man down without staying down with him."
Booker T. Washington

"Don't expect to build up the weak by pulling down the strong."
Booker T. Washington

"I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him."
Booker T. Washington

[Buzz Clik]

11. I like the last one. I need to remember that one more often.

[TuxedoKat]

49. Did you read his book?

Up from Slavery? What an extraordinary man. I see him in MLK, Jr. and Barack Obama too.

[populistdriven]

65. i recently started the book and he reminds me of obama

[MichiganVote]

6. He's practically a liberal in some circles. But you're both going to hell just so you know.

;) Kidding.

[Buzz Clik]

13. LOL! Yeah, I know.

[CBR]

9. My dad is pretty conservative (I have never known

him to vote Dem in a presidential election) but he despises Sean Hannity. He also did not support the Iraq War- he is retired military. He also is an environmental advocate (focuses on the evil that is mountaintop removal). Yet he is pro-life, does not support same-sex marriage, no to universal health care, anti legalization, no to sensible immigration reform etc...

I love him -- he is my Dad and we can have sensible conversations. My uncle, on the other hand, is a complete wingnut -- still carping about Jeremiah Wright.

[Buzz Clik]

14. Two thumbs up.

Your priorities are all lined up.

[Mr Rabble]

12. Im curious about something-

What is the extreme left doing to harm this country?
Who or what is the extreme left?

These questions are not meant to be antagonistic. I am simply curious about this. :)

[Buzz Clik]

15. When that came up, it was in the context of divisiveness.

We weren't talking about specific objectives per se but the frothing-at-the-mouth from the fundies and their equivalent on the left.

[Mr Rabble]

17. Understood. That is why I asked.

I totally understand wanting to find common ground with someone, but I still dont understand this.

The right wing fundamentalists are roughly equal to the Taliban in desire, if not in ability to enact.

Im not quite sure what the equivalent on the left is. I usually see the "extreme left" "screaming" about the radical right, and not about the majority of the country.

Does that make sense?

[Believing Is Art]

19. The very extreme animal rights and environmental groups, for example

The ones that will vandalize or terrorize for their cause. They're breaking the law and turning people off from the causes. My brother gives me hell for being "green" and a vegetarian, and I have to repeatedly assure him that I don't like PETA and I'm not going to go burn any Hummers. And he's a liberal.

[Mr Rabble]

21. Good example. That's what I was asking.

Thanks for the response. :)

[baldguy]

22. But they don't have any real power.

There aren't any members of Congress advocating a total ban of the sale of animal products, or the murder of people who work as loggers.

On the right, the extremists are the base of the GOP.

[Believing Is Art]

23. That's true

The right is kind of run by the fringe groups. The worst the fringe groups on the left do is make some topics uncomfortable for politicians.

[seabeyond]

16. all my people are republicans. hardly going to throw baby out with bath water

we have all about decided no talking politics. i have no patience with fox news,..... fair and balanced

[RandomKoolzip]

18. So name some figures from the "extreme left" who are harming the country to the extent that

oh, say, the Club for Growth has. Please try to name some who have as much financial or political power as their equivalents on the right. Oh - and can you name the specific ways in which these powerful entities on the left are harming the country, exactly? i.e. what kind of harm has the "extreme left" done to America in the last ten years?

[Buzz Clik]

26. I answered that question above. Go here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5595705&mesg_id=5595979

It wasn't about specific people or entities. However, from the point of view of the right, I'm sure that they see NARAL and gay rights groups as "destroying the fabric of America." I don't agree with that in the slightest, nor do I agree with your implication that all rich people in powerful positions doing economic harm are Republican.

[Umbral]

20. I seem to recall reading this post before, or something very much like it...

months or years ago, it wasn't persuasive then, it hasn't gotten any better.

[Buzz Clik]

27. Persuasive? Meaning what? My point was not to persuade. More to the point, ...

... if you are clinging to the notion that all Republicans are evil, I was not addressing you in the first place.

[Doremus]

64. All repukes aren't evil. Well, not intentionally anyway.

Unfortunately, they willingly support those who are most definitely evil.

It's all semantics.

[ContinentalOp]

24. I disagree with both of you on about 4 of those points. -nt-

[Buzz Clik]

28. That's fine.

[ellie]

25. What extreme left?

I see no evidence of an extreme left in this country.

[Buzz Clik]

29. Really? Where have you looked?

Do you read posts here at DU?

[ellie]

39. Yes, I do read the posts here

Do you think the people with "leftist" views that post on DU are ruining the country? The last time I looked, liberals weren't in power nor were our views being taken seriously in this country.

[Buzz Clik]

43. That wasn't your question, and I never stated that.

[Echo In Light]

38. Meaning, those who cite dissident voices, or don't trust Name Brand politics, or question 9/11?

Those are the usual suspects - myself included - who are often deemed "far left" on internet forums.

[Buzz Clik]

44. It wasn't my point to single out groups, individuals, or causes as being damaging.

My point (understated) was that it's the divisiveness that some groups and individuals rely upon that is damaging.

If you believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy and the Bush is guilty of MIHOP or LIHOP, I don't agree but that doesn't make you a bad person or divisive. If, however, you are one of those who demand that structural engineers around the world should rally to your side and those who do not should be harrassed with emails and phone calls, then, yes -- you are on my shit list.

[Smith_3]

30. I think service in the armed forces is basically an honorable thing, if and only if

it is unquestionably clear that the purpose of those armed forces is solely a defensive one. Those conditions have existed in the recent history of the United States, perhaps for a short time during the Carter years.

In times in which foreign policies are questionable, I think people who sign up for the military, whatever their personal motivation may be, are contributing to the problem.

[Buzz Clik]

31. And this is where the philosophical divide begins. A lot of those on the right...

... believe that our invasion of Iraq was a defensive move. Most people disagree, but there it is.

[Smith_3]

32. I think a good rule of thumb is to apply the same standards as in a criminal court case:

Is it beyond a reasonable doubt that Iraq was a defensive move? No.

Some cases are that clear: Poland defending itsself against Germany in WWII. The United States storming the beach of Normandy.

Other incidents, Hiroshima, Vietnam, Serbia, Afghanistan, not so much...

[coalition_unwilling]

33. Does he support the working class or

the ruling class? That's the only question that matters, imho.

[Buzz Clik]

35. He's a retired coal miner from Appalachia.

He's more of the working class type of guy.

[Rebubula]

34. As adults...

...we all have to deal with people that hold very different beliefs than we do and do so in a polite and respectful (assuming the other side is respectful) manner.

Family is family - I can disagree with my great-uncle (more like a grandfather to me) on any number of issues and still sit next to him and discuss movies or music while carving the Thanksgiving turkey.

Some people are mean and rude (on all sides of the issues) and they suck. Most people (including many republicans\conservatives that I know) are polite and kind when discussing politics and society.

This is the adult world...dealing with people of differing opinion without hating or being mean to them.

[Buzz Clik]

36. Beautifully stated. I couldn't agree more.

[jazzjunkysue]

37. If his kind of conservatism had stood up against Boosh, we'd all be better off now.

The last eight years were not the fault of the dems: It's the fault of the "real" conservatives who didn't speak out.

We could have used alot of vocal conservatives like him. I could get along with him.

[Buzz Clik]

45. No "kinds of conservatism" stood up against Bush. And we're worse off for it.

The only bitching we heard from the right about Bush is that he wasn't conservative enough or he wasn't rabid enough about deporting illegal aliens.

[Hepburn]

40. Wow....

...a conservative who is not a complete asshole!

Your better half and you got lucky! :hi:

[Buzz Clik]

46. That's how I see it.

[Winterblues]

41. Who or What do you consider the Extreme Left and exactly how is it destroying America?

I understand and commend a desire to find common ground but it truly should be common ground. I would like a specific example of who on the Extreme Left is destroying America, and what specifically are they doing to do that.

[Buzz Clik]

47. I never used the word "destroy" or anything similar. However, I will answer your question:

There are those on the extremes of both parties who are so divisive and so vocal that they alienate everyone who disagrees with them. We have them here at DU, and I have been called hideous names and accused of all sorts of sins for not espousing their causes. That's harmful.

[Echo In Light]

51. It's the exact opposite: those who think conspiracies are non-existent tend to be VERY nasty...

...belligerent, prone to making personal attacks, and name-calling. Just look at the Cynthia McKinney thread yesterday - that was one of the more overall hateful, venomous threads I've ever read here, and it was so specifically because it drew the top-volume hatred of those who HATE indies and/or Greens, and more so, vehemently HATE "conspiracy theorists."

It's one thing to disagree, it's quite another to enthusiastically revel in sheer animosity over perceptive differences - especially when the haters join together in a chorus of name-calling.

In my estimation, that is indeed a common characteristic of those who oppose the 'far left,' which, the term itself is usually code, designated specifically for this area of marginalization and access to unconventional views. And if that puts me on your "shit list," as you indicated to me yesterday, I could care less.

[Buzz Clik]

52. The point of this thread was neither to marginalize you nor judge you nor embrace your ideas.

You brought us to that point.

[Echo In Light]

53. Per your claim of the 'far left' being on par w/the 'far right' as being hurtful to the country

You've yet to back that "moderate" view up with anything even remotely substantial.

[Buzz Clik]

54. They are both divisive. That's the only point. Agree, disagree. It doesn't matter.

[PassingFair]

55. How can we disagree with something you won't define?

Let me help you...

By "far left", do you mean PETA?

Or Code Pink?

And how are they divisive?

[Buzz Clik]

56. Both far left, both divisive.

They act like complete fools and embarrass everyone.

[BoneDaddy]

42. Don't you know that ALL republicans are evil and

all liberals are good people?

I hear ya. What I find amazing is that so many of the things I hear in DU about republicans is not that different than what I hear on the Free Republic site and all you really need to do is just interchange lib/conservative, dem/repub.

I am a die hard progressive and my best man and one of my closest friends is a conservative republican Catholic. He is a great provider, a loyal husband and a wonderful father to his three girls.

[Buzz Clik]

48. Nice post. Thanks! A bit of a follow up:

I am progressive but tend toward the center on some issues. I also don't like the crazed posts we sometimes see here at DU. When I suggest a bit more thought or provide a counter argument, the stream of insults begins. I used to get similar responses from the knuckledraggers when I posted on predominantly rightwing website.

[BoneDaddy]

50. The problem is "tribalism".

Every "tribe" or gp of people accentuates their opponents faults and minimizes their own. DU is no exception. In here it is acceptable to mock whites, men, people who have money, the religious, etc. It is not that I disagree with the arguments in some cases, in fact I wholeheartedly support many of the arguments posited. It is just that if that same form don't of scrutiny or critism or, god forbid, alternative point of view is focused on their particular tribe...watch out and like you said here comes the judgement and labels.

I will say that for a good part, DU is more evolved than the Free Republic but much of both sites have alot in common. Demonizing the enemy. When I read the stuff on FR about liberals I really get a kick out of it, it is often so twisted and bent. But I hear the same demonization about conservatives and republicans and it makes me wonder about how far each group is from one another. In many cases they are very similar in thought processes.

[Postman]

57. What is the "extreme left" doing to harm the country?

Single payer health insurance? Lifting the cap on income for Social Security taxation?

How is any of that harmful?


The "extreme left" argument is a straw man argument..

[Buzz Clik]

58. I answered that a few times already:

Here's a link to my first reply: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5595705&mesg_id=5595979

I'm not making an argument at all, straw man or otherwise. It's strictly my opinion.

[Echo In Light]

61. "Far left" is the dem version of what the Right calls "Loony left:"

Professional class types, who, if they were honest, would admit to wishing that their big tent weren't quite as encompassing, as it allows for 'embarrassing' and unseemly views that don't seek the safe, biz as usual mode that moderates prefer. In order for the illusions to hold, data that ill fits the moderate's background assumptions (just like the right, they buy into most of the nationalistic, bullshit propaganda, the phony "wars," the National $ecurity State ruse, etc) is quite unwelcome as it brings this notion front and center:

"America has one political party with two right-wings." ~ Gore Vidal

...or, "Conspiracy stuff is now code for unspeakable truth." ~ G.Vidal

This is why the moderate view is so hostile toward indies, and also the notion of criminal collusion/conspiracy within the corporate/state nexus: it foils the preferred framework of the game.

[Buzz Clik]

62. You're really looking for a spat.

It isn't the far left views that bother me or are harmful to this country -- it's the behavior of some of those espousing those points of view. Assaulting the Secretary of State by breaking through security and holding "bloody" hands in her face is ridiculous; I agree that Condi Rice has blood on her hands, but Code Pink's actions in that instance were horrible.

And you are bouncing around this thread trying to create a problem while pretending to be a victim. I have no idea what your position is on any political issue, but you're nothing short of a pain in the butt, and you are intentionally behaving in a very divisive manner.

Thank you for acting out my point.

[Echo In Light]

63. It isn't objectively "divisive;" you tag it as being so because you disagree w/my stated views

After all, this is an internet forum for the exchange of views and ideas. That's what we're engaged in. Just because someone doesn't agree with another's view doesn't mean the one who expressed that view you don't like did so merely for the sake of being divisive ...which, correct me if I'm wrong, but seems to be what you're implying.

[lonestarnot]

59. Did the dog lick the donuts?

[Buzz Clik]

60. Um. okaaaaayyyy....

We have a dog. I bought donuts on Sunday, and we all ate one. I don't give human food to the dog.

So, no. No opportunity for the dog to lick the donuts.

[EFerrari]

66. There is no real extreme left in this country. n/t