Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Interesting Right-wingers Waterboarding Experiment

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:32 AM
Original message
Interesting Right-wingers Waterboarding Experiment
Doing some research on waterboarding and found this diary of someone I assume is a right-winger. He tried three different
techniques - no rag, with rag,(neither what he considered that bad) and the saran wrap technique.

Here's an excerpt on saran wrap:


http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717

Next up is saran wrap. The idea is that you wrap saran wrap around the mouth in several layers, and poke a hole in the mouth area, and then waterboard away. I didn't reall see how this was an improvement on the rag technique, and so far I would categorize waterboarding as simply unpleasant rather than torture, but I've come this far so I might as well go on.

Now, those of you who know me will know that I am both enamored of my own toughness and prone to hyperbole. The former, I feel that I am justifiably proud of. The latter may be a truth in many cases, but this is the simple fact:

It took me ten minutes to recover my senses once I tried this. I was shuddering in a corner, convinced I narrowly escaped killing myself.

Here's what happened:

The water fills the hole in the saran wrap so that there is either water or vaccum in your mouth. The water pours into your sinuses and throat. You struggle to expel water periodically by building enough pressure in your lungs. With the saran wrap though each time I expelled water, I was able to draw in less air. Finally the lungs can no longer expel water and you begin to draw it up into your respiratory tract.

It seems that there is a point that is hardwired in us. When we draw water into our respiratory tract to this point we are no longer in control. All hell breaks loose. Instinct tells us we are dying.

I have never been more panicked in my whole life. Once your lungs are empty and collapsed and they start to draw fluid it is simply all over. You know you are dead and it's too late. Involuntary and total panic.

There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. It would be like telling you not to blink while I stuck a hot needle in your eye.

At the time my lungs emptied and I began to draw water, I would have sold my children to escape. There was no choice, or chance, and willpower was not involved.

I never felt anything like it, and this was self-inflicted with a watering can, where I was in total control and never in any danger.

And I understood.

Waterboarding gets you to the point where you draw water up your respiratory tract triggering the drowning reflex. Once that happens, it's all over. No question.

Some may go easy without a rag, some may need a rag, some may need saran wrap.

Once you are there it's all over.

I didn't allow anybody else to try it on me. Inconceivable. I know I only got the barest taste of what it's about since I was in control, and not restrained and controlling the flow of water.

But there's no chance. No chance at all.

So, is it torture?

I'll put it this way. If I had the choice of being waterboarded by a third party or having my fingers smashed one at a time by a sledgehammer, I'd take the fingers, no question.

It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture. I can hardly imagine worse. I'd prefer permanent damage and disability to experiencing it again. I'd give up anything, say anything, do anything.

The Spanish Inquisition knew this. It was one of their favorite methods.

It's torture. No question. Terrible terrible torture. To experience it and understand it and then do it to another human being is to leave the realm of sanity and humanity forever. No question in my mind.


Questions? Doubts?


P.S. Yes, I really did try it.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. Damn - my question to this guy was why he had to experience it himself
to know that it is torture? Is he so bereft of human reasoning and empathy to think that it is not? Of course, this is a guy so stupid he tries to drown himself with no backup if things go wrong. He could have easily died.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I think (if you read the whole thing) the guy is in great physical condition
(maybe huge ego?) and he was trying to prove that the liberals are making too much of a big deal about waterboarding.

He says that if you use no rag or a rag - you can expel the water and draw in more air to keep your lungs filled.

I am interested in the angle of the prisoner we waterboarded hundreds of times and how he must have realized that they would not actually drown him? I guess it depends on which of the techniques was used.

But, you are right - he could have killed himself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
2. Ok, I'm convinced. Really really convinced.
I feel kind of sick after reading that.
I know people like the author, hearing someone like that say that, really scares me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Why does it scare you? Just curious here...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. I guess
it is because this is the kind of guy who can't be stopped or scared by anything. He is the type who will stay on the radio to save his friends during combat while the enemy is shooting him to death. He will run until he actually dies to get the job done. He will continue a fistfight with one of his eyes gouged out. He will fold over his blown off leg and tie it to his thigh with his boot laces so he can keep moving. He will cut off his own leg with his knife to extricate himself from a trap.
Hearing this type say he is terrified and would sell his kids to make it stop, It's pretty far beyond awful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I seriously doubt that.
He's probably some chickenshit chickenhawk who took a martial arts class and thinks he's a badass.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Ha! Ha! You are very impressive. Ha!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. At least he had the courage to try it !
Not sit behind a keyboard and call names.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. Whenever rightwingers try to claim it isn't torture I tell them...
try being waterboarded.

Just once.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
6. Chris Hitchens said almost the exact same thing. You know it's over
That moment of complete clarity when you know that you are going to die. I've felt it when a car I was riding in almost went off a cliff. At the last second I just curled up knowing that it was the end. The driver evidently kept his foot on the brake in a natural convulsive reaction because he stopped the car with inches to spare. We were all in shock for quite a while after that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. "Real" waterboarding is exactly the same thing
Waterboarding isn't just a matter of putting wet rags up to the mouth and nose of the victim; the rags are manipulated to alternately allow and stop the victim from breathing. And it isn't just a matter of filling the sinuses, mouth, and upper respiratory tract, either. Divers experience that kind of thing from time to time, and while it's unpleasat, it isn't usually terrifying.

The waterboarding victim has NO control over what happens and when, and that's the point of it -- total loss of control in a potentially lethal situation. In effect, both the victim's breathing reflexes AND their (cortical) sense of control are turned against them.

His earlier tries were improperly done; but the Saran Wrap was foolproof, and he was the fool. The very fact that this was SELF-waterboarding makes it all the more dramatic; he lost control for a few seconds, and it scared the hell out of him.

"SELF-waterboarding" ... it's sort of like masturbation. He got a little of the physical thrill; it wasn't the "Real Thing". Zubaydah and KSM get the full measure of "courtship-by-terror". George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Don Rumsfeld, (ab)using our spy apparatus, turned two of the potentially most atrocious criminals in history into objects of sympathy AND threw away the ability to ever develop legally acceptable evidence.

--d!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. so, it must be a true skill, a horrific skill...to know when to stop enough
to insure the person doesn't drown. I mean, if they did it to Khalid Sheik Mohammed 183 times (in one month!) - somebody knew when to stop and let him expel the water from his lungs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Or they let him die and resuscitated him. Again and again. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. You also have either a person sitting on you or punching you in
the stomach. You may have just finished five days without sleep. You ribs might be broken too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. Exactly, if anyone has read about this, the victim is often deprived of sleep and/or
not given food -- loud music -- whatever, but already in poor condition.

And, it amazes me that anyone would question that this is torture?

That would be like looking at the sun and wondering if it's hot -- !!!

What's wrong with these people?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. There's another torture where they hold your head underwater. To prevent
you from holding your breath, they punch or kick you in the stomach.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Man's inhumanity to man . . . this can't be Mother Nature's plan . . .
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. No, it is mother natures neurotic second child. He's got issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hannity? Where are you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. This link has a couple of guys doing the same thing.
One guy doesn't believe it's torture & they waterboard him. Very interesting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x303553

The thing about waterboarding is that it doesn't sound so bad. So they put a cloth over your face & pour water on you - big deal. What we don't see is what the guy in your post stated:

I have never been more panicked in my whole life. Once your lungs are empty and collapsed and they start to draw fluid it is simply all over. You know you are dead and it's too late. Involuntary and total panic.

There is absolutely nothing you can do about it. It would be like telling you not to blink while I stuck a hot needle in your eye.

...

It's torture. No question. Terrible terrible torture. To experience it and understand it and then do it to another human being is to leave the realm of sanity and humanity forever. No question in my mind.


Powerful stuff. Thanks for posting.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Shit can happen and people will fucking die during this crap..this is insane
its no joke....its deadly....

Even if one guy on this Earth sez its torture...then its Torture....

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. You want to see crazy? Look at this thread on another board.
Pay particular attention to the post jpotts. I'm fuzznj there. It's a cigar message board I frequent occasionally and some of those people are just nuts, this one in particular. Enjoy teh crazy.

http://www.cigarbid.com/auction/forum/forum.cfm?action=list&forumID=9&messageDisplay=0000000291576
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. interesting. sounds like the people who have been through it
describe it the same way - involuntary. I wonder if in the Bush torture rooms - they give the prisoners something to drop like that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
31. I would ask Mr. Potts who it was that forced him to have all of those awful medical procedures. Why
didn't he choose not to have them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. "It's horrible, terrible, inhuman torture."
And, it was done in our names. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. Runner up for the Darwin Award.
But maybe the good ol boys will believe him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. yep. they probably believe him - but don't care if we do it to terra-ists.nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. True - they just say anybody who got tortured must therefore be a terrorist.
Not the brightest bulbs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DarthCheney Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
24. Why doesn't Bush or Cheney volunteer?
Can't wait for insHannity to weasel out of this..... C'mon, if KeithO is putting up $1k per second.......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. Did Hannity agree to do it? I must have missed that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
25. Cutttng a hole in saran wrap?? And he was surprised that he "almost killed himself??"
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Thanks for this post! That was a helluva read. Happy to rec!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sandrine for you Donating Member (635 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
27. someone I assume is a right-winger ....How ??
Because if this is a real temoignage, I really hate to read it. Don't like it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. in the rest of the diary he demeans "liberals"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
28. Yes, when I did it with my brother we did the saran wrap too.
I did it 4 times. (maybe 5, I can't exactly remember right now) It's not pleasant.

I wouldn't recommend doing it, btw. I did it because I wanted to write about it and, plus, I'm a little bit crazy, I used to wrestle and ride bulls and you have to be a little goofy to do those things. And honestly, in a way, it doesn't sound like it's all that bad and RWers trivialize it like somebody is just splashing a little water on another person. It's important to understand that people who undergo this type of thing in training, like those in certain military units or CIA officers can only last on average 15 seconds when they're waterboarded. And those are some pretty damn tough people. I didn't think it was going to be that bad, well it was worse than I thought. I think that's why you sometimes see a reporter try it or something, because it doesn't sound like doing it once is too rough. Even if you're prepared for it, wasn't sleep deprived or anything, it makes you panic almost immediately. A few seconds seems like eternity. After a few times I was wiped out though, I can't imagine getting waterboarded 183 times after undergoing all these other things. I think enough people have tried it, it's honestly way worse than what it even sounds like and it's a good way to get a Darwin Award.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
30. I don't get wingnut vibes from him--Because h'es being too honest about the result!
Call me dense, or.... I don't know what, but I just don't see any basis for assuming he's a repuke. If he were, he'd be projecting hostility at liberals, twisting the experience in some kind of way to protect his party loyalties (i.e. self-identity). Never just reporting the naked experience unembellished.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. no, you have to read the whole diary. a comment from there;
"and all the rest of those liberal scum (no offense intended) must accept my now accept my now expert opinion."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. ohhhhh; guess reading the whole thing makes all the difference!
Thank you for the correction!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
36. what a dumbass - please cause me pain so I can be sure it hurts
Edited on Mon Apr-27-09 11:52 AM by merh
I've debated torture with vets that claim they went through the SERE program and were water boarded. They act like it is no big deal. I remind them that they knew they were not going to be allowed to die, that they would get to go home to their comfy and safe bunk.

I also ask them why it is they were water boarded. They reply "so we know what to expect if we are captured and interrogated, so we know how to withstand it."

I then ask them "withstand what?" and they reply "techniques to try to make us break".

Of course, I then ask them "you mean SERE is conducted to teach you how to survive torture without breaking?"

they then get pissed and start the whole "it isn't torture, we don't torture our own soldiers".

Then they fall back on the "oh, you are against torture of our enemies but you have no problem with the torture and murder of unborns - you support abortion."

There are messed up folks in this world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Hi Merh. Next time you ask- ask them what method was used.
Like this guy here says anything but saran wrap is bearable because you can keep you lungs filled with air and
expel the water. Based on what I have read too, it really doesn't matter whether you are among friends or interrogators - the gasping for life is an auto response. But I guess not knowing if someone might let you die would only make it that much worse.

nasty business, for sure
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. I can't wait to watch Hannity try this, like he promised he would
Is it time to call him on his cowardice, and force him to admit it IS torture without even trying it?

Hannity wants it both ways, I see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BobTheSubgenius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
41. I got the sense that Scylla is at least somewhat right of center....
...and perhaps more than somewhat. It doesn't mean he can't be telling the truth; I know some rightists that I consider merely misguided, and far from evil.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC