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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:46 PM
Original message
Iran is wrong.
Edited on Thu Mar-29-07 08:51 PM by cali
In my opinion, Iran's act of seizing 15 British sailors was rash and agressive at a time when we could use less, not more of that. I keep seeing all these comments defending what Iran did, and it drives me a little nuts, because it seems like it's a defense, not based in reason, but in a kneejerk response to GB being an ally of the U.S. and Blair's alliance with bushco on the "war on terra". OK, that antagonism is understandable. I feel it myself, but let's take a look at what we actually know about the situation.

The Brits were operating under a U.N. mandate. The captured sailors were in two small dinghies, hardly the vessels one would choose for provocation, let alone agression.

The Iranians claim that the Brits were in Iranian territorial water. The Brits claim they were in Iraqi waters. The border in the Shatt al- Arab has been long disputed. In any case, it is simply ludicrous to assume that the Brits were trying to start a shooting war.

The Iranian Revolutionary Guard could simply have told the sailors to get the fuck out of Iranian waters. Hell, they could have done it at the point of a gun. Or they could have held them for a few hours while broadcasting to the world that the Brits had breached their territorial integrity.

The Brits on the Frigate Cornwall, could have shot at the Iranians. In an interview, an American officer posted in waters near Iran said that's what the Americans would (stupidly) have done. The British took no hostile action.

The Brits tried, for several days,using quiet diplomacy, calling in the Iranian Ambassador for meetings and using very low key and conciliatory language- even calling the meetings with diplomats "cordial", to secure the release of the sailors. In the last couple of days the Brits have been using stronger language, but nothing that can by any stretch of the imagination signal an impending attack or any desire for hostilities to break out.

When I see comments about how the Iranians are peacefully detaining the bad brits who were looking for trouble, my jaw drops. Yes, yes, Bush is a war monger, but the Brits, despite Tony Blair's alliance with bush, are not the Americans. And frankly, I suspect that Tony Blair, who is not a stupid man, knows all too well that he made a blunder of epic proportions when he when he allied himself with bushco. England in not the U.S.

So go ahead, flame away with all the usual PNAC, war criminal stuff- and I'm not disagreeing about PNAC or the culpability of Blair in the Iraq war, but you might try and look at the situation critically instead of through that particular prism.

Oh, and one more thing, I don't think there's a chance of a war over this incident.

And yet another thing for those of you that think Iran is simply doing what they have every right to do and just peacefully detaining the sailors: The 8 British sailors who Iraq captured in 2004, claimed that the Iranians put them through mock executions.

The U.S. has hardly captured the market in bad acts. Neither has England.

The Iranians should release the British sailors.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. How many carrier groups
do we have in tha area?
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RL3AO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. 2
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. and how many permanent military bases do we have in Iraq?
Edited on Thu Mar-29-07 08:51 PM by seemslikeadream
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Aaarrgh. So what?
That has nothing to do with ANYTHING that I posted. And as I pointed out several times in my OP, THE BRITS ARE NOT THE AMERICANS.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. No shit.
Has a single person -- other than you -- said anything that would suggest that a SINGLE PERSON doesn't recognize that the "BRITS ARE NOT THE AMERICANS"?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Are you kidding?
go read some of the threads about this issue; theirs a lot of conflating. Even the post I responded to is a comment about how "we have carrier groups in the vicinity". Sorry. I think there's plenty of people bringing up American aggression as if this was about the U.S., not England.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. here's the threads to read
Bush's Inconceivable Interest in Iran Sat Apr-01-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=819437

Senior U.S. Officials “Want to Hit Iran”Tue Apr-04-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=844418

Larisa Alexandrovna: CHENEY TAPS IRANIAN ARMS DEALER FOR IRAN TALKS Thu Apr-20-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=977234

Seymour Hersh said something startling about Rumsfeld on Democracy Now Fri Aug-18-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1936421

So former DLC, PNAC member Abram Shulsky feeding Cheney info on Iran?Sat Aug-19-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1944614

Fuck. Iran has started "war games." Escalation may only be expected.Sun Aug-20-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1949812

Attack on Iran is ComingSun Aug-27-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1993284

"Grave threat". Yes, it's deja vu all over again.Thu Aug-31-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2022620

UN attacks US nuclear report on Iran erroneous misleading unsubstantiatedSun Sep-17-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2159951

We Are Conducting Military Operations Inside Iran Right NowTue Sep-19-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2168218

Navy told: Prepare to blockade Iran by Oct 1Mon Sep-18-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2161779

Pentagon Iran Office Mimics Former Iraq OfficeWed Sep-20-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2179484

“This is the largest massing of military power in the region, and it is gathering for a reason.”Sat Nov-18-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2753952

Seymour Hersh: Cheney Says 'Whether Or Not Dems Win-NO STOPPING Military Option With Iran'Sun Nov-19-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2757350

Does anyone still believe the US will launch a full scale invasion of Iran?Mon Dec-04-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2856177

Saudi clerics rally support for Sunnis and Saudi ambassador Abruptly ResignsTue Dec-12-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2902643

Act III in a Tragedy of Many Parts - The US Occupation of IraqSun Dec-17-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2935498

Century Foundation Iran White Paper Series Fundamentalists, Pragmatists and the Rights of the NationTue Dec-19-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2948146

Oh shitTue Dec-19-06
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2944423
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #29
115. No, I'm not kidding.
I find nothing funny about the fools who are holding the world hostage, and making aggressive moves that increase the chances of a larger regional war breaks out in the Middle East. I think it is a serious enough issue that it requires people to take as honest of a look at the situation as is possible -- and that includes not trying to score points in a debate by discrediting something that no one else said. And the truth is that no one else has said anything that implies they are incapable of making the distinction between the USA and England.

The relationships between the US and both England and Iran are topics worthy of serious discussion. I am not a fan of, nor sympathetic to, the present government of Iran. I think that it is important for progressive democrats to have as well-rounded a view of the history of Iran, to understand how this government came to power, as is possible. That includes reading serious works by even conservative authors. I think Ken Pollack's "The Persian Puzzle: The Conflict Between Iran and America" is worth reading.

I also think that, while some people will see the current British leadership as our faithful friend, that many others will recognize Tony B as a spineless lapdog, who obeys George Bush's commands. More, the history of England includes more than a fair share of that old "the sun never sets on the British empire" mentality. And that type of mentality and the behavior that results from it is not restricted to ancient history.

The boat of British military operatives that were taken into custody were not in Iranian waters for innocent reasons. And it is of no significance that the British government is saying that they were not in Iranian territory: again, the British have a long history of not respecting other nations' boundries, including those in the Middle East.

If we read Corn & Isikoff's book "Hubris," we get a pretty clear idea what small groups of military operatives are doing there. They weren't there for rest and relaxation. And the UN has not okayed operations against Iran.

Again, this is not meant to indicate any sense of approval of the actions taken in recent days by the Iranian leadership. But it is to say that we should be objective in assigning responsibility. The Iranians didn't pluck these people off a British beach.

The potential for a war that no one will benefit from is increasing. The fools who are "in power" in many of the nations playing roles in this madness are suffering from the delusion that people control violence. It is, of course, just the opposite: violence is part of a process of humans spinning out of control. Every insane action to prepare for this conflict only adds to the huge powder keg in that region. It could go off not just because some individual or group who thinks that God or Allah or Jehovah is taking sides, and thus creates an incident, but far more likely from something totally unexpected ..... a powder keg never explodes on its own, even if a fool holds a match to it .... it goes off from that tiny fuse.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #115
120. Although I generally
take what you have to say into account, I stopped reading at "British Military operatives". That's such loaded language. And I'll remind you that the British were operating under a U.N. mandate. Furthermore, you in no way addressed anything in my OP. Clearly you don't consider my points worth addressing. And that's fine. Sadly, I don't consider yours of any great merit either- with the exception of your final paragraph. And let me make it clear, I deplore the build up of U.S. forces. Just as the Iranians should release the sailors, er, British Military Operatives, the U.S. should get their carrier groups out immediately and stop that form of provocation, along with all others.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #120
129. I think that
when you say that you stopped reading my post at the first sentence in the 4th paragraph, but then discuss the last paragraph, that you expose a willingness to be a tad bit less than forthright. It is in character with the repeated attempt to say that those who disagree with you are suffering from an inability to recognize the difference between England and the USA. That falsehood is compounded with the repeated falsehood that the military operatives in question were carrying out a UN mandate.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #129
144. I would be interested to know if you are saying that there is no
UN mandate which the British claim they were operating under or that these particular sailors were not operating under that mandate. The story I heard was that they had boarded and inspected an Indian commercial vessel and were disembarking from that ship when they were captured.

Is that not what happened? Or we they not carrying out a UN mandate because of the allegation that it occurred in Iranian waters?
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #129
259. and the arming of GCC states, which
I forgot about until just this moment
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. It's not just the carriers, it's the cruise missiles
The carrier's planes are there to provide aircover for the ships that'll be launching missiles. Iran has an airforce, and they will certainly use it to defend themselves when Bush attacks.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
218. and the nuclear subs...that carry nukes...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. I believe there are 3 and France has one there too
Edited on Thu Mar-29-07 08:58 PM by seemslikeadream
as do a couple of other countries, I'm looking that up now
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. the British Navy plans to add two mine-hunting vessels to its ships
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/21/world/middleeast/21navy.html?ex=1324357200&en=89d268b4a9650a47&ei=5088&partner
As part of future deployments after the first of the year, the British Navy plans to add two mine-hunting vessels to its ships that already are part of the international coalition patrolling waters in the Persian Gulf.
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
79. Because Iran is willing to violate international law
As they proved not so long ago, in the 80s, when they mined international waters. It takes two to tango, as the cliche goes.
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twiceshy Donating Member (259 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #79
155. I think the British...
Have turned the other cheek with Iran one too many times. As might I add have we in the US. They are seriously (the Iranians) misjudging the resolve of Britain and the US because of this history of backing down. This is a test of resolve, just hope it doesn't turn into a showdown. If it does I think the Iranians will be sorry they ever started it.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #155
232. I agree with you
Iran is making a very big mistake. My hope is that Iran is just looking for a way to save face at this point. They can't possibly hope to win this militarily.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #232
247. Are we THIS gullible?
Will we be led down PNAC'S warpath without a whimper?

Shame!


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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #247
261. It's the "two wrongs" fallacy
The United States is far from perfect, sure, but Iran is also far from sainthood. Just because the Western nations are assholes, doesn't give Iran any right to be. Two wrongs don't make a right; it just makes two wrongs.

What worries me most is that this is the exact same game Iran and (American-backed) Iraq played before their disastrous war in the 1980s: the game of bluffs, skirmishes, and oneupmanship. And I don't think either side really understands just how crazy the other side can get when pushed.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #247
265. I don't think "we" are going to do anything
if you mean the US. Britain will take care of this themselves. I think we'll only get involved if it escalates further than these 15 British soldiers. What do you think Iran is hoping to accomplish?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. The aircraft carrier Eisenhower AND IT'S STRIKE GROUP including 3 escort ships
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/21/world/middleeast/21navy.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5088&en=89d268b4a9650a47&ex=1324357200&partner

The aircraft carrier Eisenhower and its strike group — including three escort ships, an attack submarine and 6,500 sailors in all — entered the Persian Gulf on Dec. 11 after a naval exercise to practice halting vessels suspected of smuggling nuclear materials in waters across the region. A carrier had not been inside the gulf since the Enterprise left in July, according to Pentagon officials. The next carrier scheduled to sail toward the Middle East is the Stennis, already set to depart Bremerton, Wash., for the region in late January, Navy officers said.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. NATO force Germany Italian Spanish Danish Greek Netherlands French Belgium Turkish Bulgarian
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15582.htm

“The US and NATO countries had amassed the largest military armada in the Middle East. The US armada consists of carrier Strike Group 12 led by nuclear powered aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, Eisenhower Strike Group—another nuclear powered aircraft carrier with accompanied military vessels and submarines, Expeditionary Strike Group 5 with multiple attack vessels led by aircraft carrier USS Boxer, the Iowa Jima Expeditionary Strike Group, and the US Coast Guard. Canada has sent its anti-submarine HMCS Ottawa frigate to join the American Armada in the Persian Gulf. On October 1the USS Enterprise Striking Group has crossed the Suez Canal to join NATO armada at the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea.

The NATO force is composed of troops and naval vessels from several countries and is lead by Germany. It includes German command naval forces, Italian navy, 2 Spanish warships, 3 Danish warships, 10 Greek warships, 2 Netherlands warships, and French, Belgium, Turkish, and Bulgarian troops in South Lebanon.”

Akleh adds ominously, “This is the largest massing of military power in the region, and it is gathering for a reason.”

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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
80. How many Iranian sailors have been taken captive?
By those carrier groups?


Just because someone bets doesn't mean you have to raise them.

The mistake is in playing the game at all.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
158. 2 carrier strike groups + 2 expeditionary strike groups + additional attack subs
+ additional mine warfare vessels...
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
257. TARGETS
bush is saying to his fellow idiot who is President of Iran: Go ahead make my day! To be honest I would not put it past bush to be having those exact hopes.
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. I agree. K & R
Thank you for posting this; it was much needed.
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RL3AO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Good post.
I think you are absolutly correct. Iran made a huge mistake, or maybe they did it to drive up oil prices. Who knows. But I guess I'm one of the few on here that does not think that Bush is getting ready to invade Iran.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
233. I don't think he's getting ready to invade
if you mean with ground troops. Bombing from the air - that he may do. But it wont be for this. Britain will take care of their own.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. If I was Iran, I'd keep a sailor or two at each potential target...
and announce it. Maybe even set up a webcam on each cell.

Bush is going to attack. And when our aircraft carriers turn into wind with so little sea room available in the Gulf, Iran is going to counter attack and hit them hard. This is going to end badly.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. you fit right in to the bush/ahmadinejad mentality
Congratulations!
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. You missed the part where I said "This is going to end badly," cali
cali, take a deep breath and calm down.
I was projecting what I expect to happen, not rooting for it.
Neither Bush nor Ahmad think this is going to end badly.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #9
103. jeez, chill dude.
this is a lot more complicated than it appears on the surface.
It has to be understood in the context of the constant saber rattling that the US and brits have been doing in the region. You have to realize that bush has put Iran in the crosshairs for quite some time. You have to realize that false claims have been made about Iran in the international arena with the absolute intent of provocation.

You have to understand that the west has done some pretty nasty business in the middle east for decades.

Further, you have to realize that Iraq and Iran DISPUTE where their maritime borders extend. And you have to realize that the british are fully aware of that.
You have to remember the brits captured disguised as middle easterners planting bombs.

You have to view this whole thing as the layers of an onion that it is, and remember that points of view, historical baggage, and strategic agendas all mix in the soup.

You can say Iran is wrong all you want, but it doesn't matter: the die has been cast. Bush will have his IRan war, come hell or high water. You can blame IRan for that, or you can realize that there is a massive world hegemonic agenda the neocons are pursuing, they control the media and determine the spin of what you hear.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:22 AM
Original message
Jeez, dude,
I do understand the deplorable history of the U.S. and GB IRT the region. And sorry, I've been seeing that die is cast line here at DU for over a year. The attack on Iran is always imminent and never happens. With bushco in charge, it certainly could happen, but that window of opportunity is swiftly closing.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
192. from you lips to God's ears, but the fact remains that "window of opportunity" has been forced open
for some time now by the west.
Think about it. If you're a middle eastern country publicly targeted for regime change by the same countries that regime changed your neighbor, ANYTHING you do at this point is protecting yourself.
Try to see things from their point of view, if you are capable of such.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #103
183. And don't forget the five Iranian diplomats "captured" (i.e., kidnapped)
by U.S. military on Iraqi soil. The easiest way to view this incident is as tit-for-tat, Iran showing it too can play the "capturing" game.

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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I think both sides are itching for a fight
or if not a fight are playing chicken. We captured some Iranian "diplomats" and now they have captured some Brits they say were in their waters. I think this is the underlying reason for the latest crisis.
I want escalation avoided however possible but I am not queen of the world.
I also think if we had carrier groups stationed just outside our waters we would not be too happy about it. Just looking at both sides and I am sick of extremists in govts on both sides putting everyone at risk of another war.
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
17.  Whoa.
Sure sounds like you are thinking of ways/suggestions for Iran to do something even more sick and twisted. Unbelievable. :puke:
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. The British marines are now hostages.
They are being paraded on TV like trophies. This is a very dangerous game to play.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. No, no, no.
Didn't you get the memo? They're prisoners not hostages. The word hostage is being used by the MSM to gin up outrage and build support for an attack.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. they are hostages
in case people didn't get the sarcasm I assume is here. they are prisoners of war being treated in violation of the Geneva Convention, and I will condemn that the same way I condemn the US for violating the Conventions.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #35
184. Until there are international war crimes tribunals for Bush, Blair, Cheney,
Rumsfeld, Tenant, et. al., you might as well consider the Geneva Conventions "quaint and obsolete."

Condemn away but be sure, while you're busy condemning, to also call for war crimes trials for high-ranking members of the Bush\Blair juntas.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #184
208. who said anything about a war crimes trial?
talk about extrapolation.

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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #208
219. I mentioned "war crimes trial" to point out that, after Abu Ghraib and
Guantanamo, the Geneva Conventions are meaningless. Condemning other countries' violations of them now means almost nothing, since Bush's and Blair's policies thoroughly violated them long ago.

In other words, why should Iran adhere to the Geneva Conventions when the U.S. and Great Britain obviously do not, (protestations of the Bush fascist junta to the contrary)?
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #219
244. because they agreed to, and because it is wrong
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 09:38 PM by northzax
why should I not rape your wife just because you raped mine? same reason.

the Geneva Conventoins are binding whether or not the other party is following them or is even party to them.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
95. I think your OP was well stated. But you seem incapable of
defending that position without sarcasm and in a few cases twisting of words by others, and it makes me wonder how deeply you've considered your opinion.

A few people here seem to be mocking you, so I can understand the use of sarcasm in response to the same. But many, many people here are making valid points...and you're still dismissing them with derisive remarks.

If I weren't so tired, I'd stick around to see how this thread turns out.

Good night.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
122. Tey become hostages when they said
Apologize and we will release the woman and then withdraw from Iraq and we will release the rest. That is when they became hostages and not prisoners.
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enough already Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. When you get in bed with Bush, shit happens
The Brits brought this on themselves.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. just an opinion and observation
The Brits did the same thing in 2004 going into unchartered waters, and again they do it, the Iranians are saying they were in Iranian waters and the Brits are saying they were not, Iran was all set to set the female naval officer free after the Brits gave them apology, but the UK offered no apology or for saying they were in Iranian waters, but after Iran heard the Brits strong language and that comment "of taking a different phase" the Iranians took their offer away, due to the hostile and arrogant way the Brits said it.

What is wrong swallowing your pride and saying we were in Iranian waters and get the naval officers returned. Or am I wearing rose colored glasses, or is it worth initiating a confrontation with Iran??
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RL3AO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Then they would put the other 14 on trial...
and say the British Gov't admited they were in Iranian waters
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. From what i've read
the Iranians are the ones who have engaged in hostile and strong language, and are behaving arrogantly. As I said, for the first five days, the brits were conciliatory and low key. That got them no where. As I understand it, the Iranians are demanding more than an apology. Again, why don't the Iranians just release the brits? Don't you think they've made their point?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
88. They're behaving arrogantly?
How many warships do they have near British waters?
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. Iran gave out coordinates
which turned out to put the Brits in Iraqi, not Iranian waters. Iran then "revised" those coordinates placing the Brits in Iranian waters.

In other words, Iran is trying to get the UK to make a false admission of wrong-doing in a blatant show of force and brinksmanship.

This is not diplomacy in action on the part of Iran. The exact opposite: escalation and jacking things up.


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Thanks. I know I read that somewhere
Do you have a link?
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. I just did a quick search
I know there is more, but here's this from PBS:

"The British also alleged that the Iranians on Saturday gave them coordinates that actually put the crew inside Iraqi waters. Then, when the British pointed that out, they say, the Iranians presented new coordinates on Monday that put the craft inside Iranian territory."

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june07/iran_03-29.html


I'll look for some others in a bit.

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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Iranian provocation, nothing else.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
68. Are you sure about that? Nobody's been trying to poke
Edited on Thu Mar-29-07 09:52 PM by mmonk
a stick at Iran in the last few years? No intimidation tactics? No special ops? Nothing? Just Iran one day getting a hair up its ass and going out and finding some Brits to kidnap? I'm not defending their action, but I'm not naive either.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. there's this from a Brit
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #49
116. And his follow-up: "Both Sides Must Stop This Mad Confrontation, Now"
It is essential now for both sides to back down. No solution is possible if either side continues to insist that the other is completely in the wrong and they are completely in the right. And the first step towards finding a peaceful way out, is to acknowledge the self-evident truth that maritime boundaries are disputed and problematic in this area.

Both sides can therefore accept that the other acted in good faith with regard to their view of where the boundary was. They can also accept that boats move about and all the coordinates given by either party were also in good faith. The captives should be immediately released and, to international acclamation, Iran and Iraq, which now are good neighbours, should appoint a joint panel of judges to arbitrate a maritime boundary and settle this boundary dispute.

That is the way out. For the British to insist on their little red border line, or the Iranians on their GPS coordinates, plainly indicates a greater desire to score propaganda points in the run up to a war in which a lot of people will die, than to resolve the dispute and free the captives. The international community needs to put heavy pressure on both Britain and Iran to stop this mad confrontation.

http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2007/03/both_sides_must.html
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #40
277. Cali, Truthiness Inspector, haven't you ever heard of the Shatt dispute before??? Please Read.
Edited on Sat Mar-31-07 12:08 PM by Leopolds Ghost
There ARE NO Iraqi or Iranian "waters" in the Shatt Al Arab. It is a shared waterway that is vital to both countries' shipping, as there are major oil ports on both banks. Iraq and Iran prosecuted A TEN-YEAR WAR over access to the Shatt, with the US switching sides several times.

According to the Law of the Sea, if the waters of a border marine waterway are disputed, then the line goes down the middle. This places Iran in control of ALL SEA ACCESS TO IRAQ if the Brits choose to use that standard. Saddam did not, and the Shah (backed by the US) shot at Soviet-funded Iraqi oil shipping for violating Iran's territorial waters in a disputed waterway under the Law of the Sea (making Iraq a landlocked territory.) Saddam retaliated as soon as the Shah was overthrown by invading Iraq and trying to annex Khuzestan, renaming it "Arabistan" just like he did with Kuwait, only this time he had US support because our puppet in Iran had been overthrown and we needed access to the oil we had controlled. When Iran under an ailing and demented Khomeini, kicked out the communists and started killing student leftists (many of whom were SDS-style leftists who participated in the American Embassy hostage-taking, as recounted in a recent documentary that interviewed both the hostages and the hostage-takers) the Soviets and Americans isolated Iran and both powers started arming Iraq, in order to keep Iran from siezing Basra. This was known as the first Gulf War, in which 1.5 million soldiers died, not that fiction you imagine was so important in 1991.

You guys don't know your history of maritime disputes in the region, do you?

On Edit: If the Brits weren't in Iranian territorial waters when they siezed an Indian merchant vessel, how did they get captured by Iranian forces that just happened to be patrolling nearby? If Iranian Pasdaran were violating US (oops, I mean Iraqi) disputed waters, why didn't we capture THEM?
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. yes and it makes no sense on the surface
Edited on Thu Mar-29-07 09:18 PM by Mojorabbit
we could bomb them even if our military ground troops are stretched so thin. They know it and we know it.Do they think we are worried about them coming into Iraq and it putting our troops at risk? Do they have a card to play energy/economy wise that would hurt us and so do not think we will really do anything? It looks like a dangerous game of chess and they act like they are holding some good cards/pieces. If so what are they? Otherwise the whole thing makes no sense. They are daring the west to respond knowing we would support the Brits if anything happens to the hostages.
I'd really like to know.
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
61. and they are biting the tail of the lion
knowing that the lion is pinned down. The US/UK axis simply can't do anything to strike at Iran at this point. so Iran wins every day the west blusters and looks weak by being unable to strike.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
240. Even that is debatable, see Craig Murray's blog
Here's a bit from Craig Murray's blog. Apparently there is no such thing as "Iraqi" and "Iranian" waters, legally, since the boundary has never been established by the two countries and is basically a British invention:


The British Government has published a map showing the coordinates of the incident, well within an Iran/Iraq maritime border. The mainstream media and even the blogosphere has bought this hook, line and sinker.

But there are two colossal problems.

A) The Iran/Iraq maritime boundary shown on the British government map does not exist. It has been drawn up by the British Government. Only Iraq and Iran can agree their bilateral boundary, and they never have done this in the Gulf, only inside the Shatt because there it is the land border too. This published boundary is a fake with no legal force.

http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/



(scroll to March 28, 2007 to rad the entry; newer entries expand on this)

(Murray is a British ex-ambassador to Uzbekistan; he quit in protest against human rights violations by Karimov, who's Bush and Blair's newfound friend-in-oil)
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #240
278. The entire Iraq-Iran boundary was basically a British invention. Please Read.
Edited on Sat Mar-31-07 12:07 PM by Leopolds Ghost
The Shah of Iran allowed British troops into his country as a check on the Russians. In return, he asked the British to give him the Ottoman province of Ahvaz (ancient Elam, modern day Khuzestan) where huge quantities of oil had recently been discovered. The British occupied all of Mesopotamia at the time, including Khuzestan on the Iranian side of the Shatt.

The British agreed to give the Shah half of southern (Ottoman) Mesopotamia (Ahvaz/Khuzestan),

and keep the other half (Basra/Shi'ite Iraq) on condition that British and American oil companies would have excluive contracts on both sides of the fictitious border.

It was a kickback deal to finance the Iranian Pahlavi regime, which had already overthrown a domestic, mullah-backed constitutional democracy (the first in the region) in the late 1800s, and would again do so (the same Pahlavi family) in the 1950s when Mossadegh was overthrown.

The British needed influence in the un-occupiable mountain fortress of Persia in order to maintain it as a bulwark against the Russians, and they DONATED Khuzestan and its oil to the Shah as a GIFT to make the deal go down.

A revocable gift, since the oil fields there were the only part of Iran British and American troops were capable of occupying in the event Persia switched sides and aligned with the Soviet Union.

So it was the perfect way of projecting power to the Soviet border in a country that western troops could not and probably still cannot occupy, due to geography. Use the oil wealth of Khuzestan as a sort of "magic ring" binding the Persian state to Western interests.

And also, America wanted access to Mesopotamian oil which they would not have had if Britain kept all four Ottoman Provinces (Kirkuk/Kurdistan, Baghdad/Sunnistan, Basra/Shiastan, and Ahvaz/Khuzestan) together under Imperial-- er, I mean U.N. -- Mandate.

(what was that about the legitimacy of UN Mandated occupations, cali?)
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #278
290. There are many mistakes in what you have written
The Evolution of the Iran-Iraq Boundary

The creation of the mandate for Iraq in 1920 introduced
a new country into the Middle East that, on its eastern frontier, inherited
a number of unresolved problems with Persia. For hundreds of years
frictions, sometimes leading to war, had periodically erupted across the
common boundary extending from the Caucasus to the Persian Gulf,
and a long series of treaties between the Ottoman Empire and Persia
had vaguely defined the border. The modern boundary was basically
established in 1847, but it was not demarcated on the ground until 1914.
Since that time there have been few adjustments.

...

Following the increasing intervention of imperial powers in the Mid-
dle East in the nineteenth century, the reluctance of regional states to
define specific borders could not be allowed to stand. Conflict between
Persia and the Ottoman Empire was unsettling to Russia and Britain,
who offered to mediate and in 1843 set up a Boundary Commission
(with representatives from Persia, Turkey, Britain, and Russia) to de-
marcate the border. Extensive and frustrating negotiations led to the
(Second) Treaty of Erzerum in 1847, which was the first European-style
treaty between the states.21 Under its provisions, the Ottomans retained
the city of Sulaymaniya, which Persian troops had captured in 1840.
The Ottomans recognized Persian sovereignty over Mohammareh and
the island of Abadan (then known as Khizr), and the eastern bank of
the Shatt was defined as Persian. Freedom of navigation was specified
for Persian shipping in the Shatt. While sovereignty over the river was
not addressed specifically, there was general acceptance on the part of
the Great Powers that the whole of the Shatt al-Arab belonged to the
Ottomans.22 This led to continuous Iranian efforts from the late 1920s
on to redefine the border as the thalweg, or median line of the deepest
channel.
...
This is where matters stood until, after continued border incidents,
and with the importance of the region increasing with the development
of a nascent oil industry, the Persian and Ottoman governments agreed
under the Tehran Protocol in December 1911 to set up a commission
to demarcate the border. This led to the 1913 Protocol of Constanti-
nople, which described a boundary line. Ottoman sovereignty over the
Shatt was confirmed, with the exception of certain islands and an an-
chorage off Mohammareh. The Turks agreed to regard as Persian the
border city of Qotur, northwest of Tabriz, which had long been a bone
of contention.23 Turkey also gave up its claim to Qasr-i Shirin, on the
border west of Kirmanshah, in return for some territory farther north.
Some of the Zohab region to the west of Kirmanshah, including Man-
dali and Khanaqin, which was suspected of holding rich oil fields, re-
mained within Iraq.24 The border was then rapidly demarcated with
pillars. The Delimitation Commission, whose decisions were supposed
to be final, started work in Abadan in January 1914 and finished in
October at Mt. Ararat, shortly after the outbreak of war.
25 (The commissioners found that the Persians had in general encroached on the
border in the south, and the Turks in the north.26) A British diplomat
commented at the time that the whole story was “a phenomenon of
procrastination unparalleled even in the chronicles of Oriental
diplomacy.”

http://www.ciaonet.org/book/sir01/sir01_04.pdf (or current Google cache


So, the Ottoman-Persian border was basically defined in 1847, with small adjustments made by the countries themselves in the following years, and this became the Iran-Iraq border (with the ongoing dispute of whether the midline of the Shatt al-Arab, or the Iranian low water line, defined the border). This was, of course, long before any oil was discovered in the area (that was in the 1900s). It happened under the Qajar dynasty, which lasted until 1921. That was when the Pahlavis gained power - after the borders had been decided.
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. I believe NOTHING that comes from the news on this matter

I am sure there is a TON being kept from the public & given the British & United States history, I wouldn't trust them in such a behinds the scenes scenario.

I don't know what is going on. But, don't trust them (of all people) to give a honest accounting.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. our media do not believe them, they want the American people
to fall for this, to fall into having another war with a country that did do nothing to us. Painting the Iranians as the bad guys.

Now I found two articles yesterday one from the Russian website that American warships were conducting war exercises and a Iranians saying nothing like excessive exercises from the US was going on, now, who do we believe. Unbelieveable.
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RL3AO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. What do you mean the Iranians have done nothing!?
They captured 15 British sailors and are parading them on tv.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. I was trying to say they have done nothing to the Americans.
this whole thing stinks. This corrupt regime we have is stirring the pot with Iran to start something, to put our troops in harm's way.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. So Iran holding this 15 soldiers and keep delaying their release
is America's fault?
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Is it possible it is in retaliation for
us taking their people hostage in Iraq? Do we know? I am seriously asking. Not that it makes it right but I am looking at motive.
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whopis01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #56
189. No, not all of America
Just Bush and other republicans.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #189
251. Bush being an asshole
doesn't give everyone else the right to be an asshole too.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. That is just as valid an opinion as the OP
It was merely time for the predictable daily scold.

Bad DU. Bad, bad, bad for discussing your opinions on a message board, especially if they don't totally jibe with mine.:spank:
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. Iran should remember 1 word; "Falklands."
If Britain cared enough about a few smelly sheep-covered rocks half a world away to destroy the Argentine navy (such as it was), what makes Iran think they can pull this kind of crap with 15 of their sailors?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Nah. That's an apple and orange comparison
The brits just want to get back their sailors, not explode the entire world. What's more, I think the Iranians are well aware of that.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. I do not think the Brits want to explode the whole world now, nor
did they in 1982. But they want to show that upstarts shouldn't mess with a second-tier superpower.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. They are, cali. But I feel
they think this is a good moment in time to show the world they actually some power, and that Britain and, yes, the US will not be willing to respond militarily.
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whopis01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #26
190. That's not an apple and orange comparison.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
55. The Falklands war was a close run thing..
The British victory didn't come easily or cheaply.

It would actually have been cheaper for the Brits to give every Falklander a million pounds than it was to fight the war..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War

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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
86. And many in Thatcher's government had been hinting to
Argentina that England was looking to unload the Falklands for a couple years prior to the Argentine invasion.

Then the fascist military junta had to blow its wad and rattle sabres, trying to divert attention from its human rights atrocities. They kicked sand in the face of the tough guy on the beach, and they got pummeled for it. Thatcher didn't want to let them get away with it. Consequently, 25 years later, England STILL has the Falklands.

Dumb move by the Argentines.

This may be a dumb move by the Iranians. They're trying to figure out if they're dealing with a Thatcher or a Carter.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #86
93. I was in the UK in 1985 and it was a hot topic even then..
I remember making a remark about the Falklands war and getting a good earful from several people who did not agree with the government at all on the subject.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #93
231. I was in Argentina around 1990. It was STILL a sore subject.
Even today, if you want to make an Argentine mad, say the "F" word: "Falklands."

They will quickly inform you that they are Las Islas Malvinas.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. I would think they are interested in questioning
these Brits as to what is going on and if anything is being planned against their country. I would probably be curious if I were them and given Iranians were taken by Americans in Iraq.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
47. They've had them for nearly a week.
They know they're operating under a U.N. mandate. They've had plenty of time to question them. I doubt that's their interest. More like using them as pawns in a game of brinksmanship.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. I think it's a combination of things.
Brinksmanship, retaliation for the US kidnapping of Iranians, threats and war gaming, sanctions talk, talks about bunker busters and strikes, etc.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
90. What UN mandate? n/t
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #90
279. The same sort of UN Mandate the Brits had when Iraq was a British colony.
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
37. You are right on the money with this cali.
Iran keeps getting high praise from so many here and they are no better than the U.S. or England.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
39. Question 1: Has Iran ever invaded and occupied another country in the 20th Century?
Question 2: Has the U.S. ever invaded and occupied another country in the 20th Century?
Question 3: Has Great Britain ever invaded and occupied another country in the 20th Century?
Question 4: Has Iran ever overthrown a democratically elected government?
Question 5: Has the U.S. ever overthrown a democratically elected government?
Question 7: Has Great Britain every overthrown a democratically elected government?
Question 8: Has Persia/Iran ever been occupied in the 20th Century? If so how many times and by whom?
Question 9: Has the U.S. ever been occupied in the 20th Century? If so how many times and by whom?
Question 10: Has Great Britain ever been occupied in the 20th Century? If so how many times and by whom?

Ahmadinejad is an ass. The Council of Guardians are a Council of asses. They have *yet*, however, to approach the assitude of the U.S. and Great Britain when it comes to invading and occupying countries.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #39
53. all that has nothing to do with
the fact that the Iranians could easily and simply de-escalate this mess by releasing the brits. And the Iranians are not insulating themselves against an attack by their actions here. Indeed, they're doing the opposite.

BTW, right as dos passos was, and true as it is that the past is often prologue, it's rarely, when it comes to actual events, that simple.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. It has everything to do with the current situation.
Michael Kinzer's All the Shah's Men.

A good overview of the overthrow of Mossadeq and the context surrounding it.

Another good book-- Misagh Parsa's Social Origins of the Iranian Revolution.

Both provide good socio-historical coverage of Iranian twentieth century history and show that those questions I raised mean everthing in the world when it comes to the current situation.

Everything.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Sorry, I strongly disagree.
and really, how hard is it to answer my simple question?
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #70
82. Disagree away. Your two posts don't appear to have questions in them.
Just uninformed statements that appear to willfully ignore the history of Persia/Iran in the 20th century and the involved roles played first by Great Britain and then the U.S.

Feel free to be as strong in one's disagreement as possible, but without any sort of evidence or argument supported in any way, one is left with an appearance of petulance.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #82
117. So you're saying Iran is now allowed a free go at being an ass?
That it's OK for it to seize a few British sailors, because of what happened over 50 years ago?

I don't think you actually mean that, but can't tell why you responded to a debate about whether Iran is in the right now with a history lesson. If you're saying that Iran has been driven to irrationality by past events, then state it explicitly.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #117
164. Over 50 years ago? Iraq-Iran war 1980-1988...longest land war
to date in 20th century?

Driven to irrationality? One of the largest blunders of any foreign policy is to claim one's enemy is irrational. Never underestimate people's intentions.

Where did I say they should get off scott free? Where exactly.

There appears to be a lot of "reading into posts" right now.

History and contextualization sure ain't pretty, but far uglier is the willful ignoring of reality.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #164
185. And what was the British involvement in that war?
You referred us to the Shah and Mossadeq. That's going back 50 years.

Seriously, I'm asking you why your history lesson is relevant to a thread saying 'Iran is wrong'. The best I could think is that you're pointing out that it's done this because of a long-lasting hatred of Britain - which wouldn't stop it being wrong, but would explain why it made its decisions. You compared the 'assitude' of Britain and Iran - when done in a reply to "Iran is wrong", this seems to imply that Iran can be an ass now, because, otherwise, why compare the two here?

You ask many questions, say "those questions I raised mean everthing", but don't bother giving any answers. That's why I have to read something into your posts - because you don't state anything.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #185
193. I ask the questions in the expecation that folks will actually read the history
of the relationship of Persia/Iran in the twentieth century to the superpowers (early 20th, Great Britain/Russia, mid-20th, partially Great Britain and then US)

I have provided the titles of two works that provide clear academic studies of the modern history.

I ask the questions so people will actually think about the answers, or at least search them out and come up with their own conclusions once they have been informed on these key issues.

If folks wish to believe that Iran is wrong, irrational (words used in this thread) without actually studying the long tortured history of British and U.S. relations over the last fifty to one hundred years that is there problem. If they wish to believe that "that happened fifty years ago" and thus is irrelevant to the current situation, that is there prerogative. They will be wrong, however.

I am amazed at how willingly people will believe that the citizens of other countries and their leaders are oblivious to their own history. That they might, just might, have a different perspective based upon this "irrelevant history".

Before folks acquire blisters from beating the "Iran is wrong" drum, they should step back and learn of the history and maybe even look into the details of the current situation and recent circumstances found within Iran.

It may be easier to write of a country of 50+ million by supporting the cheerleaders of war, but that is ill-informed, counter-intuitive, and dangerous.

I know the answers to the questions I asked--they're basic history 101. Once folks can answer them, then, maybe, just maybe, a productive discussion may be had. Until then, folks who wish to read in all sorts of "Iran is innocent"/Iran good/US-GB Bad stuff into my original post, are just wasting precious time.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #193
195. So you know the answers, but refuse to share them?
OK, it's you who are "just wasting precious time". You say that 'believing Iran is wrong' is itself wrong, and that the reason that it's wrong is held in the history of the first half of the 20th century. Therefore, it seems you think Iran has good reasons for capturing the British sailors, based on that history.

I asked you if you were saying Iran was irrational. You have at least said that isn't what you're saying, so there's no need to keep pointing at that word. If you had bothered say what you did mean, it would help a lot more.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #195
201. It is the difference between active and passive learning. One provides for a better
understanding of the world, the other is pretty much limited in its effectiveness.

That is why I don't "provide answers." If folks would read up, come up with some answers to the questions--then a discussion of the factors pertinent to the current situation would hopefully ensue.

Iran has no better or worse reasons to capture British sailors than any other country in their situation.

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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #201
248. And we have a winner for the Most Pedantic Post of the Thread Award
That was definitely an endearing post.

(and I say that as someone who has made far more than his share of them)
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #164
260. Sorry bro, but not
the longest land war in the 20th century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

If we add in civil wars in the 20th century, then the Iran Iraq war slips down further.......
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #260
273. The Iran-Iraq war was the longest conventional war--one that did not
"merge into" other wars.

But I'll give the semantics.

In the end, it matters little for the point being made.

Nice find on wikipedia...
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #82
123. Oh please,
I wrote a fairly long OP that relied on facts. No, I didn't go into the deplorable history of either the UK, or the US in the region, but that hardly obviates my posts. Excusing Iraq for this incident, is what's unsupportable. In fact, it's as unsupportable to me as supporting the Israeli Wall because of terrorism, or the Occupation of Palestine because Arab nations attacked Israel 60 years ago. History is a factor, it shouldn't trump rationality or excuse bad acts.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #123
166. Where did I excuse Iran? Where exactly.
It would help matters immensely if folks would read and respond to what was posted and refrain from adding things that were not stated.

And again with the "rationality" factor (along with other posts to my response)

Looks like a few themes are surfacing.

History must be downplayed.
Rationality as defined (!!) by some is the factor--irrationality of Iran is a given by some.

Lord love a duck, let us be thankful that some don't have their hands on some major weapons and decision-making authority in foreign policy...
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #64
101. I disagree too. That's not logical at all. I've seen that posted in some other threads, the same
crap about because Iran hasn't been a threat in the past means blah blah blah, they can't do any wrong. I'm sorry, but they ARE wrong in this situation. Why can't some people admit that? I don't understand what the defending and apologizing for Iran is all about. Iran arrested a Canadian journalist a couple years ago and beat her to death. She died of a brain haemorrhage. Iran can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.



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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. Because you can't dehumanize and demonize
an entire country because they have some crazy leaders.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #106
200. Although some do
In this very thread.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #101
163. Where did I say Iran cannot do any wrong? Where eexactly?
I was providing much needed historical context to the specific situation. I also referred to the fact that the true leaders in Iran as well as Ahmadinejad were far from innocent.

Writing of an entire country saying they can go to hell? Let's be thankful that some aren't in charge of foreign policy in the world...
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
41. Thanks cali, for bringing some common sense to the discussion
Unlike many here, I have very little sympathy for the government of Iran, which is proving though its actions that it is looking for problems.

I wish this can be resolved peacefully, but if something happens, it's Iran's fault at this point, and I will even support the British openly (regardless of getting flamed or not).
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Iran's fault! Iran's fault! Are you serious?
Do you blame the Iraqis for being invaded also?
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. They weren't Invaded!
Where do you get this shit?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Who are you saying wasn't invaded?
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Who do you think?
Iran.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
281. Sure they were -- 1980 - 1988, with American and later British, Soviet backing
Including chemical weapons supplied to Saddam Hussein to allow him
to annex Khuzestan and rename it "Arabistan".

Of course, the conduct of Iran during the war was abysmal. It radicalized the Khomeini regime, prompting them to begin purges of dissidents, mostly student leftists. They sent conscripts as young as nine into battle as martyrs, often roped together to prevent desertion, in the style of Persian emperor Xerxes battles with Sparta (according to Western journalist accounts). But we wanted to break Khomeini away from Russia, so this was the perfect outcome for us which is why both we and the Soviets funded Hussein's attempted takeover of the Iranian oilfields.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Apples and oranges.
Iraq was a fake war from the start, and Saddam had done NOTHING to provoke anyone.

Iran captures 15 Brit soldiers in a territory that nobody really knows if it's Iranian or Iraqui and keeps dealying their release. If that's not a provocation, I don't know what it is.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
282. Sure he did. Saddam shot at US craft patrolling the UN Mandated no-fly zone.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
59. Oh for fuck;s
sake. Try reading the OP and telling me what you disagree with, and where I'm wrong, using facts instead of kneejerk reaction.

Amd let me answer your question: No. I didn't blame Iraq for being invaded. I was adamently against any such action and demonstrated it. If Iran is invaded over this idiotic contretemps, I won't blame it either. If bushco is determined to attack Iran, he'll find a way, and I am as opposed to that as I was to the Iraq invasion. I hope that's clear enough for you.

I don't view the world in simplistic black and white terms. I try and analyze events in the context in which they happen. That's what I did in the OP.

Now I have a question for you: Do you think the Iranians are doing the right thing by holding these Brits, contravening the Geneva conventions, or is it only the U.S. and the Brits who can do "bad" things?
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. If you want to analyze events in a context...
If you want to analyze events in a context, then you can't ignore the obvious context that this happened only because of the Iraq war. Iran knows that the U.S. military is tied up in Iraq, that public opinion has shifted against the occupation, that the Brits are impotent because of it, and that an invasion on their soil would only embolden the Arab world further against the United States and its allies.

This action by Iran is not "wrong" in the sense that an illegitimate war is happening next door which they did not start. They are simply participating in the geopolitical chess game that Bush started.
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
77. Now thats a fallacious question.
What invasion of Iran?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #77
92. Depends on whether you count special ops or not.
Bush is right now funding Al Qaeda-linked anti-Iranian groups.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
91. I don't like Iran's government either
However, they aren't bullying the rest of the world at the moment either.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
50. Looks like they will be giving the sailors back.
Edited on Thu Mar-29-07 09:42 PM by Rex
EDIT - hmm. Okay the story changed on Yahoo. Now the say no. I guess they want WWIII as bad as George and Tony.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
76. Problem is, who is holding them
Regular Army? Revolutionary Guards?

And who is the group holding them answering to. Supreme Leader? President? Parliament? Splinter group in the Guardian Council?

I am starting to think they have some, well, problems in their command and control structure.

Which means, well, we have problems. Hard to negotiate when you do not even know who you are dealing with.

And more important, hard to game possible retaliatory responses when you have no idea who will be directing the response.

But, hey, the resident DU scolds are out in force. All is well.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
57. I have read all of these posts interesting views from everyone.
The axis of evil, Syria, Iran and North Korea, that stupid remark from a stupid man got us where we are today. Makes me shake my head with disgust.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. Excuse me?
I don't see anyone calling Iran the axis of evil. And I certainly haven't. I have a strong distaste for using that word, let alone that phrase. All I did was point out in some detail, using facts, why I believe that Iran is wrong in this particular instance, and pointed out that they have the power to de-escalate it. I don't view Iran as anything but what it is: a complex nation, with wonderful people, just like any other nation. Don't think too highly of the Supreme Council or Ahmadinejad, but I don't view Iran in a black and white way.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #65
146. I was referring to Bush's remark Axis of Evil, not referring to anyone here.
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. In all fairness
are you suggesting that his "axis of evil" comment actually MADE these people evil? LOL. Sorry, but that is over the top.

If Bush called you "evil" right now, would that make you take hostages and engage in what amounts to sadistic foreplay to war? I doubt it. At least I would hope not...

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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #67
153. bush's comments did fuel this fire, calling these countries evil
how can he perceive a country "evil" if he has no clue about the culture or how that country conducts itself.

this comes from the 2002 SOTU

President Bush's exact statement was as follows:

is to prevent regimes that sponsor terror from threatening America or our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction. Some of these regimes have been pretty quiet since September the 11th. But we know their true nature. North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens.

Iran aggressively pursues these weapons and exports terror, while an unelected few repress the Iranian people's hope for freedom.

Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax, and nerve gas, and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens—leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections—then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world.

States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic.

– George W. Bush, 2002 State of the Union Address

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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
60. Do not forget why the British Navy was there in the first place
This specific action can be "blamed" on Iran, yes. But the Brits would not have even been there had there been no preemptive, illegitimate, illegal invasion of Iraq.

Ultimately, the entire mess is Bush's fault. This latest incident is just one of a series of incidents tied to the biggest disaster in U.S. history.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. we are never that far away from a disaster, and we are sitting
in four right now, Iraq, Afghanistan, our own country, and hopefully not Iran, that PNAC doctrine takes over from the Constitution doesn't it? Geez, I hate this sick regime.
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Truthiness Inspector Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. I don't think that is correct
This waterway has been in dispute for a looooong time. They were patrolling it under a UN (not US) mandate.

Do not interpret this to be a defense of Bush, we just need to stick to the facts.

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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Doesn't matter
Iran saw an opportunity to make a power play, and they took it. The only reason they had that opportunity was because it was graciously handed to them by Mr. George W. Bush. Iran knows that with Iraq now in civil war, it can take greater control of the region and have more influence in the control of the vast petroleum resources of the region.

If Gore had been president and Iraq never happened, I don't believe they would have done the same thing.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. The British were there under a U.N mandate
or is the U.N. an evil entity as well.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
62. Yup. I have been thinking about this--Iran is dead wrong, of course,
and I can't help but wonder what they're up to--are they trying to embarrass the west, or start something with us by proxy? They need to release those sailors ASAP, while we still have cooler heads prevailing.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
63. I trust the Iranian Government as much as I trust George Bush.
Iran is trying to stir up shit, period.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #63
73. Not according to
some of the incredibly contorted "logic" found on this thread, and so beautifully embodied in post #66, where it's explained that Iran's actions, in context, aren't wrong- which I suppose makes them right.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. No, and that poster never said that
that post is remarkably forthright and enlightening compared to your pedantic screed in the OP.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. LOL!
Only one thing is clear; you don't know the definition of either word. Whoops- two things. You are incapable of actually responding to the points I raised in the OP.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #73
84. I want you to play a thought experiment
Edited on Thu Mar-29-07 10:32 PM by lynyrd_skynyrd
Suppose a foreign power from the other side of the world preemptively invaded Canada and a civil war broke out between the Anglophones and the Francophones. All of a sudden, the oil resources of Alberta are exposed to whomever can exploit them successfully. As the closest neighboring country, it is in the best interests of the United States to do whatever it can to exert as much influence in the region as possible. Would you, as an American citizen, view your government's actions as wrong, considering the alternative, which is that the foreign power illegitimately seizes resources once open and available to you? Sometimes, putting oneself in another's shoes can be insightful.

Had this event occurred during peacetime when Bill Clinton (say) was president, Iran's actions would indeed have been "wrong". But now? It's not as simple as saying that Iran took an aggressive action, that they had no business doing so, and that they ought to be held accountable. This did not happen in a vacuum.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #84
285. Don't expect an answer -- this exact scenario happened in 1812.
Edited on Sat Mar-31-07 12:31 PM by Leopolds Ghost
British were searching and detaining American merchant vessels in the Great Lakes, a disputed water boundary.
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FyurFly Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
75. I agree 100% k/r
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
83. Nothing has to do with anything in the rabbit hole
U.S. Intervention in the Middle East

This partial chronology of U.S. intervention in the Middle East illustrates the lengths to which the U.S. power structure has gone to gain and maintain U.S. domination of the Middle East--a region considered key to the U.S.'s standing as an imperialist world power. This is not a complete list of the invasions, bombings, assassinations, coups and other interventions by the U.S. government, its allies, or its client states, nor does it fully document the U.S.'s economic domination and exploitation of the region's people and resources.

1918-1945:
BREAKING INTO THE MIDDLE EAST:
THE FIGHT FOR INFLUENCE & OIL

1920-28: U.S. pressures Britain, then the dominant Middle East power, into signing a "Red Line Agreement" providing that Middle Eastern oil will not be developed by any single power without the participation of the others. Standard Oil and Mobil obtain shares of the Iraq Petroleum Company.

1932-34: Oil is discovered in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, and U.S. oil companies obtain concessions.

1944: U.S. State Department memo refers to Middle Eastern oil as "a stupendous source of strategic power, and one of the greatest material prizes in world history." During U.S.-British negotiations over the control of Middle Eastern oil, President Roosevelt sketches out a map of the Middle East and tells the British Ambassador, "Persian oil is yours. We share the oil of Iraq and Kuwait. As for Saudi Arabian oil, it's ours." On August 8, 1944, the Anglo-American Petroleum Agreement is signed, splitting Middle Eastern oil between the U.S. and Britain.

<snip>

1953: The CIA organizes a coup overthrowing the Mossadeq government of Iran after Mossadeq nationalizes British holdings in Iran's huge oilfields. The Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi, is put on the throne, ruling as an absolute monarch for the next 25 years--torturing, killing and imprisoning his political opponents.

It goes on, very lengthy:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6308.htm

They haven't captured it but they have a controlling interest and are the "greatest purveyors" by far. Only historical amnesia would not acknowledge this.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. Yes, yes.
And one can take that into consideration- and should- when thinking about why the Iranians are doing what they're doing. Still doesn't make it right. The Iranians are making a strategic blunder and ratchetng up the tension at time that that's ill considered. I realize that they have a legitimate right to fear the intent of the U.S. government; indeed, they'd be fools if they didn't. But holding these sailors, even if they had strayed into Iranian territory, is an aggressive and foolish act. The U.S. isn't the only one who does stupid. They're just the biggest and best at it.
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
85. Fantastic post up and down.
Always good to see some reason. K&R.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. Thank you, Kelly.
Reason doesn't seem to be in vogue on this subject. It's seen as imperialist war mongering. Discouraging, really.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
94. So what ever happened to those Iranians siezed in Iraq a few months back
How many Iranians have been detained in Iraq that we don't even know about?

Maybe Iran wants some prisoner exchange???????
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. We've offered. They've refused.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. ok, now I dont know what they are doing
:shrug:
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-29-07 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. I really can't say I understand either.
My best guess is that Ahmadinejad is looking to embarrass the Brits to score political points at home, but that's really nothing more than a "well, maybe." I wouldn't claim to understand.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #98
100. The guy wants problems. That's what's going on.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #96
107. Thanks for that link!
It feels like there is something going on under the surface here that we don't know about. They certainly want something by doing this but what?
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #96
159. That offer is quite an admission -- it shows the West equates the two situations.
The U.S. is effectively admitting that it illegally seized Iranian diplomats by seeking a prisoner swap.

It also shows where illegal actions by the U.S. lead -- to equal and opposite reactions by others -- and why saying "Iran is Wrong" is horribly misleading.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #159
234. How are they admitting they
ILLEGALLY seized the Iranians. They'll never say that. And Iran is wrong.
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randome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #94
111. Exactly.
There's more than just a border issue here.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #94
241. Who offered and who refused?
Because this source says the exact opposite:


Khaleej Times Online - No swap of UK sailors and Iranians held in Iraq

WASHINGTON - The United States rejected any suggestion on Friday that 15 British sailors detained by Iran for the past week could be swapped for five Iranian officials held by US forces in Iraq since January.

“We reject any linkage,” State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said when asked if the fate of the British detainees might be tied to the Iranians detained on suspicion of aiding anti-US insurgents in Iraq.

US officials have said the five Iranians were members of the elite al-Quds Brigade of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards.

They were detained by US forces in January during a raid on an Iranian official in the northern city of Erbil.

http://www.khaleejtimes.ae/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2007/March/theworld_March806.xml§ion=theworld

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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
99. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend.
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 12:05 AM by Jennicut
Or something like that. Iran's leader Amanawhatever is a jerk. Bush is a jerk. Blair is a jerk. They are all jerks. But the British sailors were just doing their jobs. Let them go.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #99
252. Fucking THANK YOU!
That post needs to be repeated until some folks figure things out. The fact the Commander Bunnypants and his Amazing Pet Poodle are a couple of raving dipshits doesn't give Iran carte blanche to go about grabbing sailors and incarcerating them for no valid reason.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
102. K and R. Great post.
We, as a world, desperately need less aggression. Iran is not helping.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
104. I think it's important to view this in light of the current context
of hostility between the US/UK and Iran...And I understand their own fear and distrust of the invader of their neighboring country.

But its obvious this guy is out to look for trouble and is trying to provoke an administration that seems about messiahnic as him. He thinks he's the descendent of whatever prophet and Bush thinks he speaks to God.

But anyways, back to the actual crisis at hand - Ahmed. has become increasingly unpopular at home and this is great propaganda for him. For Blair, this might gain him some short term sympathy after a disasterous several years as PM, prior to stepping down.

It's very possible the British stepped into Iranian waters. Iraq and Iran were pretty much in constant dispute anyways, so these borders were not formalized. Still, maybe Ahmed. isn't as batshit crazy as I'm thinking. It could just be an excuse to ratchet up tensions to raise oil prices. This also makes Iran look like its standing ground against the US/UK among other Islamic nations, among whom Iran is sort of seen as an outsider due to being majority Shiite.

And the British actions of cutting off relations sounds "tough", I sure hope they have real backchannel diplomatic actions, maybe through the Russians, Chinese, or perhaps Indians. All three nations share relatively good relations with Iran.

I'd like to believe the British would admit it if they made a mistake if they veered into Iranian waters. But it's very possible they didn't. And even if they did, knowing how arrogant Blair is, I doubt such a mistake would be admitted. Either way, it's just another example of the kind of mess he's got the British people into over the years by following Bush into this disasterous course.

The Iranians should immediately at least allow the Red Cross access to the British sailors. I think they should also release the female as initially stated, regardless of the strong statements by the British since then. Those might be seen as measures of good faith. Until then, it does seem like a hostage taking. Violating the Geneva Convention is not acceptable, whether its the US, UK, Iran, or whomever else is guilty.








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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #104
105. Good post
I wonder also if he is seeing how nervous he can make the markets while he is at it and how high energy prices will go.I think they are no longer using petrodollars. The announcement by our govt that we had plenty of strategic reserves today looks a bit interesting if so. If oil went fairly high what would that do to us as an economic hit? It seems Russia and China have his back. I think there will be a really big global confrontation coming re oil and nat gas and this is but a chapter in it. Global jockying for position for control of what is left of those resources.

I was cruising the web and landed on an editorial in a Bangladesh paper which accused Iran of acting weak. I don't know if that is a prevailing attitude in that part of the world or not and maybe this is a way of looking tough for the govt.to use to dispell that kind of perception.
And I stress govt and not the Iranian people, who like us probably have in the end little say on what their crazy leaders do.

Excuse the rambling nature of the post, just some thoughts coming from my migraine/medicated brain.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #104
108. You make some really good points.
In many ways Bush and Blair created the context for this situation. Would it have happened if not for the Iraq war and bush's aggressive posture toward Iran? Likely it would not.

As for Iran's demand for an apology, and Blair's apparent incalcitrance on the issue; someone upthread pointed out that Iran could potentially could potentially use that to achieve some legitimacy in deciding to try the sailors. I have read that Russia is going to help out diplomatically. I hope China will as well.

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Psst_Im_Not_Here Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
109. And what would happen if
Iran declared the Brits "Enemy Combatants" and announced that Habeus Corpus did not apply to them and that they would be held indefinately until they could be tried by military tribunals? Full circle anyone?

THEN what could we say?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #109
112. We have no credibility on the issue of torture
or trials for those we deem "enemy combatants". I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that we do, but again, these sailors are brits, NOT Americans.

As for Iran and Habeas, seriously, Iran, to my knowledge, has nothing about such a right, encoded in it's Judiciary.
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Psst_Im_Not_Here Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #112
220. And that is exactly what I'm saying
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 03:14 PM by Psst_Im_Not_Here
We would have no negotiating power to help out our ally. We would not be able to decry their lack of Habeas, we would not be able to criticize their treatment, we have no leg to stand on. This time it's the Brits, next time it could be one of our own.

Short sighted, short term thinking lands us in a world of dangers.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #109
236. Right or wrong (I'm not judging this)
Britain will bomb them. Those soldiers will have become expendable. If they aren't already.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
110. Bush and Ahmadinejad are unfortunately very much alike.
Both are men of limited experience with other cultures and ideas.

Both men are ideologues. They play to a fanatical base and essentially ignore the majority of their citizens.

Both men are supremely obstinate and apparently eager to invite death and destruction rather than bend an inch.

Both men are true believers who not only cannot conceive the possibility that they could be wrong but are perfectly willing to cause the deaths of thousands to prove that they are right.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #110
113. And you might add
that both believe they were placed in their positions by God at a critical time.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. Absolutely and that is the most frightening thing of all. nt
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #110
154. I agree with your comment.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
118. It's interesting...
Those disagreeing with your post seem to only have the argument that the U.S. is bad, started a war, so anyone in the region can do whatever they want for any reason. If that argument doesn't work, they accuse whoever they're responding to of being in favor of the Iraq war and of invading Iran.

You bring up intelligent points and the fact that you have generated this reaction just shows how knee-jerk people have become around here anymore.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. Yeah, I knew that when I wrote it.
But as someone pointed out, I didn't respond to well to some of those folks. This is one thread where I should have used zero snark. That I don't suffer kneejerkism lightly, is a lousy excuse.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #118
238. I'm finding it very disturbing
There is nothing complicated about this. Iran is wrong (in Cali's very eloquent words).
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #118
253. Sadly,
"Bush Bad" (which goes without saying, BTW) seems to be about the sum total of thought being expressed around here anymore. Sometimes "Bush Bad" is immaterial to the subject at hand.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
121. Just remember
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 07:23 AM by Marrah_G
These are 15 people with families and loved ones at home. Regardless of what you think about the politics involved I think everyone can agree that we want to see these people get home quickly and safely to their families.

And nice post Cali :)
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
124. Is Iran wrong, we don't know
We don't know the background on this. The border issue is actually up in the air, and both sides claim different border lines. In addition, we don't know what's happened in the past. How many times have British and American forces clearly gone into Iranian territorial waters? How many times have they snuck over the borders on land?

Sure, the seizure of these sailors seems like overkill, but who knows, but the Iranians probably aren't reacting to this isolated incident.

It is a matter of diplomacy, that is for certain. And it is probably a good thing that it's the British involved directly rather than the Americans, for this would be a perfect excuse for Bushco to get their war on.

Both sides of this issue are dealing in propaganda, so be careful who you believe.

In addition, language means things. These aren't hostages, they are simply detainees. Watch the use of loaded words.

I doubt that this will set off the war, it is simply going to be another incident that beats the war drums louder. Personally, I think that what happened is that Iran got tired of Allied forces coming into their territory, and decided to make an example of these sailors. Perhaps it will work.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #124
128. Although I agree with much of your post
the brits can now legitimately be deemed hostages. Iran is making demands for their return. As for Iran being, wrong, they may be right about the brits violating their territorial integrity, and this certainly is happening in a context of U.S. threats and saber rattling, but the Iranians are wrong to ratchet this affair up, wrong to parade these folks on TV, (just as we're wrong when we pull that shit), wrong to contravene the Geneva Conventions, etc.
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majorjohn Donating Member (310 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
125. Deleted
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 07:52 AM by majorjohn
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
126. I agree.There are no innocent parties in this
And it is scary when people start sympathizing with Iran just because they hate Bush, or people are being depicted as supporting him because they state what you just did. This goes far beyond even that ass now. Both sides in this are being led by warmongering religious fanatics and if we do not move to stop this on ALL sides they will have their Armageddon. The Iranians need to release these sailors and this Congress needs to impeach the sociopaths playing this out on this end.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #126
130. People are under the very false idea that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
We see it every day here. The world doesn't work that way. A brutal regime that hates Bush does not automatically make them the good guys.
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #130
131.  Absolutely, because they hate us too, and Bush has only exacerbated that hate
He and Ahmanedejad are cut from the same cloth. Riling up the masses to get their religious war. I have said it many times... the only thing that has change down through history are the clothes we wear.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. I agree completely
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #131
150. not to start any kind of argument, but once there was a
commercial where two leaders went to hill to just beat up on each other, and keep us civilians out of it.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #130
135. Doesn't stop the US from working with brutal regimes,
such as Saddam Hussein at the time when he was "gassing the Kurds" (if it was him who actually did that, but that another matter) - which really was not a secret.
And such as just about every RW military dictatorship in Latin America, and the extremist undemocratic theocratic regime of Saudi Arabia.

I think most DU-ers do not see the Iranian government as a friend, just that the Bush regime is much worse.



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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. Of course they have, and they worked with Iran as well
Again, I see no good guys in this.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #136
141. Who's saying Iran is the good guys?
All i see is people who say the US is worse than Iran.
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #141
142. Can I express my opinion? Why so defensive? n/t
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #142
170. So it's just your opinion, not fact,
that "People are under the very false idea that the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

To which you say "absolutely".
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RestoreGore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #170
171. What is your opinion?
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 10:14 AM by RestoreGore
Perhaps instead of attacking mine you can give your own. Do you think Iran was right to capture these soldiers? Do you believe them to be the good guys? Personally, I think this was staged already knowing what the reaction would be and as we have now seen neither side is innocent in this. Iran could have taken the high road as the OP suggested, but they didn't. That then makes them just as complicit in any outcome to this than the warnmongering bastards on this side of the Persian Gulf. And that is YES, my opinion.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #171
175. I've already stated my observations,
which i don't qualify as opinion, but as fact.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #175
255. Well, rman,
that's the problem. Most of what you perceive as "fact" is in reality only your opinion, and your inability to recognize that other, equally valid, points of view are held by others clouds your reason and makes you unnecessarily confrontational and snide. You are one of the nastiest, most combative posters on this board, and I believe you've just revealed why.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #255
264. it is bad enough
that govts are at each other's throats. I don't think personal attacks help much. In the end there is not a damn thing we can do to stop them unless the population of both countries miraculously wake up and take to the streets.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
127. K&R
Cali, you remain one of my favourite DUers.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
133. The US, UK and Iran are all run by religious nutcases
I expect none of them to be moderate, logical or truly conciliatory.

Their dogmas will not allow them to think in terms of compromise, for compromise is admitting defeat in their holy quest.

And I agree, the Iranian leadership is wrong. They could have released the sailors by now, having made the point that they won't be threatened or intimidated any more.

But it's gone well past that point now.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-02-07 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #133
289. The UK is not run by religious nutcases!
Edited on Mon Apr-02-07 08:09 AM by LeftishBrit
Blair himself has a few leanings in that direction (though even he would not seek to impose 'faith-based laws' on our country); but most of his government do not. Not saying they are any good, or that Blair isn't up Bush's arse; but religious fervour is not common in the UK in general, or in its politicians in particular.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
134. "US has hardly captured the market in bad acts"?
What's that supposed to mean?

The best i can make of it is that you mean to say the US (and England) are not the biggest bullies on the planet. Is it somehow supposed to strengthen your argument that "Iran is wrong" - perhaps even more wrong than the US?

If that's what you're saying, all i can say is, you can not be more wrong about that.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #134
145. No. That is NOT what I was saying.
The U.S. is without question the biggest bully on the block, and Blair willing attached himself at the hip to bushco.

Nor am I saying that "Iran is more wrong" than the U.S.

I'm simply saying that just because the U.S. does bad things, doesn't mean that other governments don't.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #145
176. I think everyone agrees on the latter
Feel free to do what you want, but there was no need to start a thread to explain that to people.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #176
178. Thank you ever so much
for generously allowing me to do what I want. Can't tell you how much that means to me. And though it's your opinion that there's no need for this thread, it's my opinion that there is, and judging from some of the responses, I'm more convinced of that than I was when I wrote the OP.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #178
181. Can you point me to more than one reply that asserts Iran is somehow our friend?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #181
182. Can you point to me where I claimed that
anyone was saying that?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #182
187. Well, some of your supporters in this thread are saying that,
but fair enough, that's not you.

So, can you point me to more than a few replies that say other governments do not do bad things?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #187
199. What's more than a few?
There are, in my opinion, plenty of posts that place all of the blame for this incident on the Brits and the U.S. and defend Iran's actions. That was what I was addressing- what I consider a kneejerk response to the situation that arises, it appears, out or reasonable distrust of bushco/blair, but fails to really look at the situation.
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cooolandrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
137. Yep, they are wrong flexing their muscles it appears, BUT...
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 08:08 AM by cooolandrew
... still no call to wage another mistaken war just on the whim of a desperate president.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #137
149. I completely agree with you and I
deplore and condemn the provocative war games that the U.S. is putting on, just off of Iran.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #137
151. Agreed. Unfortunately, those 15 sailors had better start taking
Farsi lessons. I think they are going to be there for a long time.

Any military response by Britain, even in the unlikely event that it was successful in rescuing the sailors, would be disastrous for peace in the region. Britain should never apologize for something they didn't do (if in fact they did not do it). In the long run, the hostages may become an embarrassment for the Iranian government, if they don't provide them any leverage in other negotiations.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
138. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #138
152. Very insightful and thought provoking. Thanks.
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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
139. Thank God for the truth
This is what I don't get about liberal naivete. Why, when it is obvious that some middle eastern group or country behaves poorly, acts irresponsibly, or is downright dangerous, the apologists come out of the woodwork to somehow put the light on how bad America or the West is? Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? I think GW has made horrible decisions from day one, but I also think most of the middle east is dominated by the same form of fundamentalist insanity and has fucked up rulers as well. Still I would prefer to live here as opposed to over there.

I tell ya, some liberals are not only naive, they are downright stupid. And I am a liberal.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #139
143. Exactly!
As someone said up thread: GW is a jerk, Amadinejad is a jerk, Blair is a jerk, they're all jerks, and 15 sailors get to pay the price.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #139
172. I disagree
I don't see any posts saying Iran is right. I see a lot of posts putting the whole incident in context and rounding out the discussion from a black and white statement to as full an understanding of it as possible using the info we have available to us. This is why I love this board. You don't get this texture from the media who work in soundbites, one of which will be, "Iran is wrong". If a war is in the works people who are educated about the situation are less likely to be manipulated. This is because liberals are not stupid as a whole.


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BoneDaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #172
177. Believe me
I think liberals are much smarter than the opposition, but we have a weakness. Our weakness, which you can see from a number of threads on this topic, is to play the black and white game. If Bush is bad (which he is to the enth degree) and Britain is bad (cause they supported us through this whole charade) then Iran must be good or at the least I hear "at least someone is standing up to the US) as if Iran's behavior is justified. It is like the whole issue with Chavez.

My point is that Iran has an excellent political opportunity to show the world they are not a bunch of religious fundamentalist crazies, and they are blowing that opportunity. Politically they are slitting their own throat as they will continue to lose any sympathy if they continue to hold these sailors.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
140. I agree.
I have never understood all the "Iran is terrific" posts on any subject.

Perhaps some people just can't grasp the concept that an enemy of one's enemy isn't necessarily one's friend?
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springhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #140
249. Iran is Terrific posts?
Please, oh please, point those out to me.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
147. International Crisis & Neutrality US Foreign Policy Toward the Iran/Iraq War
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
148. "two small dinghies, hardly the vessels one would choose for provocation"
Ah...those are boats used by special forces for covert ops and night landings. Dinghies in the Gulf? Why else would you piddle around in that body of water in such small craft?

Food for thought.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #148
157. Not in the middle of the day
they aren't. And you didn't address the points in my OP.

"The men were seized at 1030 local time when they boarded a boat in the Gulf, off the coast of Iraq, which they suspected was smuggling cars".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6484279.stm

Not to mention that there's been no credible information linking these sailors to special forces.

But you want to speculate, fine with me. It just doesn't make debate terribly interesting when people go on speculation rather than that which is actually known. Hey, maybe they weren't really brits, maybe they were American special forces pretending to be Brits, and on and on.

And for the hundredth time, the Iranians actions here in no way obviate the bad acts of the U.S. or British Government, or overlook the posturing they're doing in the ME with aggressive war games. Nor do I support attacking Iran over this, no matter what happens, or over their nuclear program, which I don't see as a threat anyway.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #157
165. I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with your main point.
This whole thing is beyond strange. But those "non-threatening" boats are usually anything but, and I wanted to add that to the discussion.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #165
179. I think the issue is not so much the size of the boats, but rather where they were and
what they were doing. If they entered an Iranian vessel in Iranian waters without permission from Iran, that'd plenty provocation.
It seems that using these inflatable motorized dingies is SOP when entering a small vessel.

Nevertheless, it surely is strange. I don't understand how any US navel vessel can suddenly be surrounded in the middle of the sea; could no-one see them coming? No lookout? No-one paying attention to their surroundings while they're in a bit of a tense situation, with a war and navy exercises going on nearby, and being either in or near the territorial waters of a nation that is considered to be hostile?
To me that's doesn't make sense, and it is not satisfactory to me when things such as these don't make sense.
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chefgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #148
223. Exactly!
Thats been my thought all along.

Additionally, to the OP, would Iran still be so wrong if this turns out to have been a 'Special Ops' situation gone wrong?

I've been thinking from the beginning that its very possible that they got well and truly 'busted' by Iran.

Just my $.02

-chef-
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
156. Whether Iran is right or wrong is immaterial....
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 09:01 AM by Hobarticus
Remember, Saddam was "wrong" too, look where that got us.

These absurd border/water incursions happen all the goddamned time. People act like this is a crisis. It isn't. All Britain has to do is say, hey, we're sorry, we'll be more carfeul, we mean no harm to the people of Iran, blah blah blah. They don't even have to MEAN it. Iran just wants to score some home-town PR points....so let 'em.

These sailors could be home in two weeks. All Blair has to do is keep his piehole shut, work behind the scenes, and they'd be on their way home. But all of a sudden he's rediscovered his manhood and decided to slap it on the table, and escalate an absurd situation into an international crisis.

Iran knows it's bogus. They've revised the coordinates where these sailors were intercepted, they know they've got nothing and they know that they've likely screwed up. The commander of the interceptor vessel probably acted on his own, way out of line. It happens, remember the Vincennes? It's a goddamned game, and Tony, like Dubya, is playing right into it because he's a reactionary fool.

Obviously Iran overreacted. It's what Iran does. I see nothing served by overreacting in turn.

Now these sailors are going to be paraded before a kangaroo court and likely worse because Poodle had to be a tough guy and make a mountain out of a molehill. Sorry, I'm not impressed with leaders who play badass when someone else's ass is on the line.

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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #156
256. But why does Britain have to back down?
They weren't the aggressors in this instance. In this case it seems more rational for Iran to back down, no?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #156
269. I don't think Blair did over-react, until the sailors were shown on TV
Timeline

Th sailors were captured on the 23rd. Blair didn't say anything until the 25th, when he said

"It simply is not true that they went into Iranian territorial waters and I hope the Iranian government understands how fundamental an issue this is for us," Mr Blair said.

"We have certainly sent the message back to them very clearly indeed. They should not be under any doubt at all about how seriously we regard this act, which is unjustified and wrong."

The prime minister, in Berlin for the EU's 50th anniversary celebrations, said he had not commented up to now because he wanted the incident to be resolved in "as easy and diplomatic a way as possible".

He added: "It is the welfare of the people that have been taken by the Iranian government that is most important."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6493391.stm


which doesn't look like over-reaction to me. I disagree with Downing Street's description of showing the video of the prisoners as "cruel and callous", but that's still just a description. Remember, Iran has all this time been holding the British sailors prisoner. That's the over-reaction. And meanwhile, hard-liners in Iran called for espionage charges, which carry the death penalty.
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randome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
160. Aren't we still holding Iranians in Iraq?
Doesn't it seem equally likely that the seizure of the Britains is tit for tat? Just because Iran isn't talking about an exchange doesn't mean it isn't what they want to occur?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
161. Thanks for this!
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 09:18 AM by LeftishBrit
I think anyone who's read my posts over the months knows what I think of Tony Blair; and if he tries to get us into a war in Iran, I will be out protesting along with thousands of my compatriots. Fortunately, he is a lame duck and his party as a whole are much less gung-ho about military adventures.

But that does not mean that Ahmadinejad is a good guy, or that what is being done to the British troops is defensible in any way.

The enemy of our enemy is not always our friend.
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #161
162. I just hope they come home soon...
I hate to see soldiers and sailors used as pawns to make a point.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #162
167. I want to see them released also
can't these countries act like grown ups please?
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #167
168. No kidding. Maybe we'd better take our countries back...
...and bring some sense to this world.
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
169. No the UK is wrong, UK produced fake map says Former UK Ambassador
March 28, 2007
Fake Maritime Boundaries

The British Government has published a map showing the coordinates of the incident, well within an Iran/Iraq maritime border. The mainstream media and even the blogosphere has bought this hook, line and sinker.

But there are two colossal problems.

A) The Iran/Iraq maritime boundary shown on the British government map does not exist. It has been drawn up by the British Government. Only Iraq and Iran can agree their bilateral boundary, and they never have done this in the Gulf, only inside the Shatt because there it is the land border too. This published boundary is a fake with no legal force.

B) Accepting the British coordinates for the position of both HMS Cornwall and the incident, both were closer to Iranian land than Iraqi land. Go on, print out the map and measure it. Which underlines the point that the British produced border is not a reliable one.

None of which changes the fact that the Iranians, having made their point, should have handed back the captives immediately. I pray they do so before this thing spirals out of control. But by producing a fake map of the Iran/Iraq boundary, notably unfavourable to Iran, we can only harden the Iranian position.


http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/archives/2007/03/fake_maritime_b.html#comments

About Craig Murray
Writer and broadcaster
As Britain's outspoken Ambassador to the Central Asian Republic of Uzbekistan, Craig Murray helped
expose vicious human rights abuses by the US-funded regime of Islam Karimov. He is now a prominent critic of Western policy in the region.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #169
173. As I tried to point out in my OP
that's not why Iran is wrong here. Mr. Murray says it far better than I did.

"Both sides can therefore accept that the other acted in good faith with regard to their view of where the boundary was. They can also accept that boats move about and all the coordinates given by either party were also in good faith. The captives should be immediately released and, to international acclamation, Iran and Iraq, which now are good neighbours, should appoint a joint panel of judges to arbitrate a maritime boundary and settle this boundary dispute."

Again, the Iranians could have made their point by holding the brits for hours or even a day or two, instead of upping the ante.

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
174. And we're wrong to be anywhere near there.
One doesn't forgive the other,but which came first,the deployment or the kidnapping?

Iran will give them back.They made their points (and seeing the contrast between their treatment of captured people as opposed to our own was a very strong point indeed).
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #174
180. I'm sorry, but how YOU know how they're being treated
is a mystery to me. They may be being treated humanely and they may not. The conditions of detention do violate the Geneva Conventions. Beyond that, in 2004, Iran captured 8 British Sailors in similar circumstances. Upon their release the sailors claimed that they had been put through mock execution.

I know, I know. The British sailors had to have been lying.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #180
197. Damn,you're a testy one,aren't ya.
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 01:01 PM by Forkboy
I'm going by the video.You know,the one that aired on every channel known to man this week.I understand that that may not be how they're really being treated,but the looks on their faces,their body language,indicated to me that their treatment wasn't that bad.Certainly better than Iranians could expect if caught by us,no?

The British sailors had to have been lying.

Try to actually deal with what I say and not some self created strawman that you can knock down to feel like you're special.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #197
204. Word.
Not everything you see on TeeVee is an accurate reflection of reality.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #174
186. Ummm they paraded them in front of cameras
With hostage demands. How is it you think they are being treated well? You cannot contrast photos taken that aren't meant to be seen by the public to staged photo op confessions. None of us know how they are beng treated. Iran isn't well known for it's high human right standards.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #186
198. Nor are we anymore.
None of us know how they are being treated. Iran isn't well known for it's high human right standards.

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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #198
224. I agree.
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martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #198
230. Neither are we
The Iranian diplomat we kidnapped? They're probably in a shallow grave by now.
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
188. Great post.
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 11:35 AM by Spinoza
I would like to point out one simple fact that has been ignored. If any single country in the world has truly benefited by the attack on Iraq and the fall of the Saddam regime it is IRAN. Saddam's Sunni dominated Iraq was Iran's greatest enemy. Saddam's Iraq attacked Iran and over a 10 year period killed nearly half a million Iranians. With the fall of Saddam, and the Sunnis, Iran is now highly influential with Iraq's Shia majority. The Iranian regime must be ecstatic over events and grateful that the U.S. was crazy enough to conduct a war to Iran's ultimate benefit. Iran is not pissed off over events. They have to be happy that the U.S. deposed Saddam and the (hated) Sunnis.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
191. Consider
The 15 British sailors and marines were sacrificed by Tony Blair, just as the 2 Israeli soldiers were sacrificed by Olmert in Lebanon last summer. They were both looking to pick a fight and needed an excuse.

If the sailors/marines weren’t apprehended in Iranian waters then they were most certainly arrested in Iraqi waters, yet not one Iraqi official has publicly condemned the border violation. It’s just Tony Bliar and Dubya procreating and disseminating falsehoods, hoping to coerce the willfully ignorant populace into believing that Iran is a threat to international peace.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
194. I totally agree with the OP, there's nothing I would argue with
The big question though, is where do we go from here? Are we willing to go to war in which tens of thousands could be killed, on account of 15 people being kidnapped? :shrug:
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TexasThoughtCriminal Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
196. K&R, great post
I take the side of the suffering civilian masses in the egomaniacal fight between power-hungry zealots trying to stir up Armageddon. Let them battle it out in Hell and leave the rest of us alone.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
202. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #202
203.  "I suppose in commemoration of the day Neocon fore-bearers crucified Jesus."
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 02:17 PM by cali
Wouldn't you be happier spewing your filth on Stormfront, where it would be appreciated, instead of here?



edit: I have alerted on your post. Looking forward to seeing you tombstoned.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #202
205. I just read the rest of your charming little post, whackjob
Are you seriously suggesting that Ahmadinejad is a "zionist" stooge?

This statement of yours, certainly suggests it:

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is probably going to be replaced and he has always acted as if the zioni$t$ have had a ring in his nose and getting him to say things which promote war and their agenda.


Just out of curiosity; what happened to you to make you into such an anti-semite? Quite the little hater, you are.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #205
211. Did you read his site?
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 02:39 PM by Behind the Aegis
http://www.randycrow.com/

Do take special note of #24 of....

"Problems In The United States"

1) communi$m 2) The Economy 3) US dollar 4) Alan Greenspan 5) God under attack 6) The media 7) Rigged political system 8) President making war on the economy as much as he is making war around the world 8) Homeland Security 9) The Patriot Acts 10) Gun Control 11) Vouchers 12) Military Tribunals 13) NAFTA 14) Faith Based Programs 15) Farmers' plight 16) Merger Mania 17) Credit card interest rates 18) Stock Market 19) Enron 20) Social Security 21) Short Selling commodities 22) Interest paid on savings too low 23) Mortgage debt 24) zioni$m 25) Total elimination of inheritance taxes 26) Oil & gas prices too high

http://www.randycrow.com/platform.asp


On edit: You asked, "Are you seriously suggesting that Ahmadinejad is a "zionist" stooge?" Why yes he was...

Hamas

Justin Raimando writes an interesting article which states Israel's arch enemy, Hamas, was created by and financed by Israel. Suffice it to say that, as illogical as this sounds, in the world of New Age deception, this rings true. Now logic dictates the same arm of Israel which finances Hamas, finances the new President of Iran, Mahmud Ahmadinejad. Hello Mr. Ahmadinejad who else besides Israel would give you money? Israel could not do a better job of leading Ahmadinejad if they had a ring in his nose. Ahmed Chalabi pulls Israeli's rope tied to the ring Israel put in Ahmadinejad's nose. Isn't it funny how Arabs who bad mouth the bad guy zioni$t$ most, are the first to accept zioni$t money. So to some Arabs everything is horrible about the West except the West's money. Iran has been demonstrating high speed torpedoes apparently located on an Iranian submarine. The bad guys have been chomping at the bit to figure out how to engage USA nuclear subs in the war so it is my guess the zioni$t$ gave Iran the torpedoes and the next expand the war in the hope of killing more of our brave soldiers move will be to engage Iran's sub with the nuclear torpedo aboard. Ahmadinejad shows his inexperience in deception by accepting zioni$t money, but for him to play torpedo games with the zioni$t$, hello Kursk, goodbye Iran, exposes both his inexperience and ignorance.
(empahsis added) (same link as above: platform)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #211
214. Holy shit! He's a right wing fundie anti-semitic
little critter. And he's running for President as a dem? Someone get this creep a clue: We don't want him. Also from his website: The whole whacko "Ahmadinejad is Israel's puppet":

Now logic dictates the same arm of Israel which finances Hamas, finances the new President of Iran, Mahmud Ahmadinejad. Hello Mr. Ahmadinejad who else besides Israel would give you money? Israel could not do a better job of leading Ahmadinejad if they had a ring in his nose. Ahmed Chalabi pulls Israeli's rope tied to the ring Israel put in Ahmadinejad's nose. Isn't it funny how Arabs who bad mouth the bad guy zioni$t$ most, are the first to accept zioni$t money. So to some Arabs everything is horrible about the West except the West's money. Iran has been demonstrating high speed torpedoes apparently located on an Iranian submarine. The bad guys have been chomping at the bit to figure out how to engage USA nuclear subs in the war so it is my guess the zioni$t$ gave Iran the torpedoes and the next expand the war in the hope of killing more of our brave soldiers move will be to engage Iran's sub with the nuclear torpedo aboard. Ahmadinejad shows his inexperience in deception by accepting zioni$t money, but for him to play torpedo games with the zioni$t$, hello Kursk, goodbye Iran, exposes both his inexperience and ignorance.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #214
215. LOL!
I just added that to my post. We must have posted at the same time.

I agree with your dismayed statement...And he's running for President as a dem?

Scary times, these days! Seems some people no longer have a passing fancy with logic, but seem to miss it all together! Damn 'librul' educations!
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #211
226. Wow.
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #211
250. That is some site! Check out his Bio -
After telling us about his prep school(?) years, his higher education and his employment, he tells us:

In 1994 I started having some weird events of a dirty trick nature enter in my life. It took me five or six years to figure what was going on and even to this day what was and is going on is a little unclear. One thing is for sure, I have gotten a PHD in the capabilities of clandestine forces. When I say the planes flown Sept 11 were flown by remote control, I know this is possible and an easy task because some of the dirty tricks played on me were more high tech.
:tinfoilhat:
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #250
266. I can't bring myself to visit the site
Do I need 3 guesses as to who was at the control of the remote. I'm guessing Israel.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
206. Cali -- brave post -- and correct
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #206
207. Thanks onenote.
And I actually must confess, I did have to think about it before I wrote it. I was fully cognizant of how some would respond. I appreciate the kind words, and hope you k&r.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
209. Thank you, Cali
I have not read much for the past few days here, but was wondering of whether DUers who, automatically hate anyone who agrees with Bush and embraces anyone who hates him - Chavez as an example - were also rooting for the Iranians.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #209
212. Well, thank you.
I gotta say though, that I don't have a problem with Chavez. Not that I know all that much about Venezuela or Chavez, but he seems to be doing some good things for a lot of its citizens. That goes a long way with me.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #209
213. Well, looks like you have your answer.
This is probably the number one thing that ticks me off at DU, for the simple reason that it's the same kind of logic the freepers use when they bring up Clinton's BJ anytime anyone criticizes Bush.

Clinton's BJ isn't adequate justification for excusing anything and everything the Bush administration does. Neither is U.S. action in the middle east adequate justification for excusing the actions of Ahmadinejad or Chavez or Kim Jong Il or any of the other crazy nutjob leaders out there. To put it another way - the two things are simply not related morally, and two wrongs just make life worse for all of us on both sides of the planet. Bush sucks. Ahmadinejad sucks. THEY BOTH SUCK. Why is this such a difficult concept for some people to understand?

This kind of simplistic thinking is irritating when the dumbass freepers do it, and it's irritating when the dumbasses here do it too. I wish people would knock it off. If I wanted to read that kind of rubbish I'd go over to that other site.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
210. Well done.
With a very preditable outcome (posts).
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
216. I think Iran made a smart move. Will make the Brits mad as hell at Blair
for getting them into this mess.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #216
217. Don't know much about England do you?
The Brits are already mad as hell at Blair, but I hate to break it you, they are NOT mad at him about this. They're mad at the Iranians for holding the sailors, parading them on TV, and issuing purported letters of confession.

As for being a smart move, I think your post is in the running for dumbest comment on this thread. Seriously, how does ratcheting up tensions in the region amount to "a smart move"?
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #217
221. With all due respect, perhaps you have not noticed escalation is the name of the game.
Perhaps you have not been watching the news of the Iraqi war?
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #217
222. PS Tsk Tsk on your personal attack..... not nice sir.
I won't alert the mods on you.
This time.
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #216
263. Here ladies and gentlemen is the problem.
Yes Iran was smart when they broke international law, Iran was brilliant when they defied the Geneva conventions by parading the prisioners, at this rate Iran will be Omnipotent when they invade France to fight America.........
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #263
275. LOL!
Sometimes one reads stuff here and the mind just boggles.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
225. how many embassy staffers did we kidnap off the street?
just curious.

But I agree, Iran should release them now, out of self preservation, if nothing else. After all, Bush has Darth controlling foreign policy.
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Error Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
227. Yawn... yet another grudgefest
:boring:
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kaal Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
228. nice OP but flawed
You said the Iranian actions were rash and aggressive at a time we need less! The basis of their actions was the illegal entry into their territory. That should be the only basis of settling this dispute, not our wishes for appropriate aggression at a time of our choosing.

The Brits seem to be angelic in your mind, despite the fact that they fully and unquestionable followed Bush into this war, you still don't see any fault in their involvement. It was just a "blunder"!!! Why then are they still there?

You said:

The Iranian Revolutionary Guard could simply have told the sailors to get the fuck out of Iranian waters"

Firstly, I'm unaware of the Revolutionary Guard being involved!

Would the US and UK tell military personnel of a foreign nation trespassing into their territory to "simply" get out of their water??? Is that how both the US and UK would react?

That's the question you need to ask your self to more accurate determine if the Iranian did the right thing or not.

And yes, the Iranian must indeed free the Brits. I just hope the British SAS don't take any rash and aggressive actions, instead of allowing this issue to be solved diplomatically or through the Iranian courts.


I can personally see Blair working with Bush to escalate this crisis.... Can you?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #228
235. I disagree.
And I wrote you a long post as to why, but when I tried to post it, it got wiped out. In brief: I don't see the Brits as "angelic"; far from it. Try rereading the OP. The fact that it was the Revolutionary Guard is widely known. Here's a link, and no it's not to a Brit or American news outlet. Iran does not deny it. And it's been reported by Iranian sources. How the Brits or English may or may not have reacted to a similar situation is immaterial. You are, I trust, familiar with the old saw: Two wrongs don't make a righr. And to answer your question: No, I can't see the Brits trying to escalate this. For that matter, neither can most experts in the field.


http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=11388566&PageNum=0
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kaal Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #235
239. Thanks for the long post I'll never see...
How the Brits may react in a similar situation is not immaterial. Why should Iran be any different?

This incident has happened at a time when the US is illegally threatening to attack Iran over its nuclear energy ambitions. That is the primary issue. As far as the Iranians are concerned, it was probably a Reconnaissance mission by the Brits on behalf of the US military to get info for an impending attack. Who knows how far in the Brits went. Maybe they were picking up colleagues after an incursion to spy deep into Iran......


The issue is did they enter Iranian waters or not?!


You're probably right that there's no chance of a war over this incident, but it will be used to escalate the tense situation.
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kryckis Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
229. I agree
The "defense" of Ahmadinejad is baffling to me, and quite sickening. The guy is a maniac, moreso than Bush if I dare utter such words here. The US being imperialistic and Bush being an ass is no reason to excuse atrocities happening in other countries.

I trust the Brits on this.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #229
237. Actually, we don't agree.
I actually think that bush is far, far more dangerous than Ahmadinejad could ever be. He's responsible for far more death and destruction and destabilization. And calling this an atrocity is nothing more than hyperbole.

Sorry.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #237
267. That's only because we have the bigger weapons
Ahmadinejad is very, very dangerous. And I'm still not sure what he's hoping to accomplish here. The phrase "if you're going to shoot the king, you better kill him" keeps coming to mind. Also, he's bringing a knife to a gun fight. (I'm just full of cliche's tonight). He can't hope to win this militarily so what is he doing?
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kryckis Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #237
271. Ok
I was only addressing you with the "I agree", the rest was in general reference to other who are defending Iran on this. And the atrocity is not THIS, but the ongoings in his country and others. I was being general. Sorry for confusing you.

We absolutely disagree. There are far worse people in the world than Bush IMO. I've often had the impression coming here that people feel as though the USA is responsible for everything that is going on in the world, and that might be so, but to me it just reeks of arrogant self-importance. But that's just me from an outside perspective.


Again, not you personally cali. I think it's great that you are addressing this topic in a more rational way than I've read others do.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #229
246. I'm with you, kryckis.
I'm kinda surprised with the responses of some over here.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
242. And you base this on what facts?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #242
243. There is both fact and opinion in the
OP. It's really not that onerous to discern one from the other. Hell, I started out with making it clear, that based on the known information, I'm expressing opinion. I'm not going to repeat myself for the umpteenth time.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #243
258. Let me restate that... informed opinion
Which is not demonstrated in the OP. You say yourself it is "driving you nuts" and your jaw drops at how some "here" are defending the "Iranians," and you make these statements based on either false information or incomplete information. So yes, I ask again, what "fact" do you base your opinion on? I am quite capable of discerning fact from opinion, thank you. I am, however, unable to find the so called facts on which your opinion is based. But let me give you some context for why your type of response "drives me nuts:"

1. We have been conducting a covert war in Iran for nearly six years now, during which we have used terrorist organizations to bomb parts of Iran, assassinate government officials, and other such fun and "friendly" activities.

2. The US has made all sorts of claims attempting to set Iran up as the fall guy for the failures in Iraq and use that to justify an attack.

3. The US had begun pressuring EU countries to freeze Iranian assets even BEFORE the security council passed sanctions

4. The US has a naval build up on the front door of Iran as a "show of force" when it is clear that such a show is threatening all out war.

5. The US kidnapped 5 Iranian diplomats who were invited by the Iraqi president to come to visit at his home.

Given this context you can conclude several very important things:

1. Iran has not responded to repeated attempts to draw them into hostilities
2. Iran has every right to be paranoid

Finally, let's examine the timing... having not reacted to assassinations, bombings, and kidnappings of their officials, Iran suddenly decides to go into Iraqi waters - something the US has yet to claim - and kidnap 15 UK soldiers right on the eve of a UN sanctions vote. Not only do I find this highly unlikely, I find it insulting that anyone would use this situation to further a policy of provocation or defend a policy of provocation.

If these soldiers were anywhere near Iranian waters and as a result, the Iranians picked them up for questioning, Iran would be well within its right to do so. If these soldiers were in fact in Iraqi waters, then the Iranians willingness to negotiate with the UK and show good faith by releasing one soldier is far more diplomatic than the way the US/UK have been acting.

So your attack on DU posters who have issues with the UK side of the story is unfounded and your opinion is ill informed, that is my point. If you are going to make such sweeping statements, at least know what you are talking about.

Your comments about people supporting the Iranians because it is a position that is anti-Bush is nonsense. People who defend Putin would fit into that category, but not people defending the Iranians. I am incredibly uncomfortable with the Iranians stance on Israel and their continued push for uranium enrichment, but my own feelings on Iran do not change the reality of what has been going on.
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #258
268. Well stated /nt
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #258
270. You seem to be supporting the Iranians yourself
"If these soldiers were anywhere near Iranian waters and as a result, the Iranians picked them up for questioning, Iran would be well within its right to do so. If these soldiers were in fact in Iraqi waters, then the Iranians willingness to negotiate with the UK and show good faith by releasing one soldier is far more diplomatic than the way the US/UK have been acting."

No, "anywhere near" is not good enough. The Iranians would have to believe they were in Iranian waters for any action whatsoever to be justified. If the area is under reasonable dispute (which seems the most likely situation, but since the Iranians just gave a brief glimpse on TV of their version of the layout, rather than releasing a proper map that can be studied, we can't yet tell), then some kind of diplomatic argument is justified - but remember the British were checking cargo on an (Indian) Iraqi-bound ship, while the Iranians forced the British at gunpoint to the Iranian coast, and then took them to Tehran. It's the Iranians who are over-reacting.

If they were in Iranian waters, then the Iranians would indeed be showing good faith by negotiating (but let's remember they didn't release the soldier after all). If they were in Iraqi waters, then the Iranians would be holding them illegally, and anything short of releasing them all at once would not be 'diplomatic' but confrontational.

Being diplomatic would literally be allowing consular access to the sailors - which the Iranians have so far refused to do, despite the fact that this is what's meant to be given to any foreigners arrested in a country. The UK, however, has gone to the UN to get a statement, and got one from the EU too. That, again literally, is diplomatic. It's the UK that's talking, while the Iranians are holding people captive.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #258
272. Oh, piffle.
I consider your opinion unfounded. And oddly enough, I don't have a problem with the uranium enrichment. And certainly Iran has well founded fears- not paranoia about the U.S.

Your claim that Iran has not responded to provocations, is negated by the facts in this case- their own provocative actions in holding these sailors, and parading them in front of TV cameras, as well as issuing letters and "interviews" that are the result of duress.

As someone else pointed out to you, your claim that if the UK sailors were anywhere near Iranian waters, the Iranians have the right to detain them, is pure bullshit. Your claim that their releasing one of the sailors shows good faith, well, they haven't released one.

Yes, context is important. The U.S. actions over the past few years in regard to the region have been deplorable, and as regards Iraq, illegal.
None of that makes what the Iranians are doing now, either right or intelligent. They are ratcheting up tensions themselves.

Again, all they have to do, is release the brits, and stop with the threats of a show trial.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
245. Very well said, Cali
I really think you hit the nail on the head with this post. Brilliant. :)
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
254. Of course



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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
262. I agree with you cali
America does not have a monopoly on lunatic leaders. I agree that the Iranians should release those Britts. I agree that this is not enough to provoke a war. And to those who keep pointing out our carrier groups over there: Targets. bush is screaming "Make my day" in the hopes that his counterpart over in Iran is actually as stupid as bush hopes he is. Should one of those carriers take a hit (deliberate friendly fire or otherwise), then bush will have his self righteous reason to start the war with Iran so his buds can steal their oil too. Hell, he might get away with starting up a draft here in America if the "strike" on one of our ships is big enough. Might be a good plan to invest in those little American antennae flag stocks.

Speaking of stocks...I wonder what the stock market will do just prior to that strike on one of our ships...

just an opinion
c
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
274. Protecting the oil
After a week in captivity, the strain shows in sailors paraded for Iranian cameras
By Terri Judd
Published: 31 March 2007

Seventeen hours after their working day had begun, the Royal Navy boarding team were in a relaxed mood as their night patrol came to an end.

Speeding along in an inflatable boat, I began chatting to the man next to me about his fellow "bootnecks" in Afghanistan. We talked about how tough their tour had been and I asked where he would rather be. Without hesitation, he replied: "Helmand. My mates are there."

While Commodore Nick Lambert insisted the task force protecting the oil platforms off the coast of Iraq was most certainly not the soft option, it was clear that some of marines were beginning to feel that was the case.

<snip>

A week ago the Marines and sailors were simply trying to do a professional job in a little-known area of operations in Iraq. Eight days later their names and faces have become synonymous with an international crisis as their fate hangs in the balance, in the hands of far more powerful people.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2408012.ece
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
276. What did the US do when Britain occupied Canada and started searching US merchant vessels?
Just wondering.

(And before you say that it's treasonbable to compare revolutionary Iran
to revolutionary US, explain the following comparison -- Ahmedinejad and
Andrew Jackson.)
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
280. And What, Pray Tell, Were the British Doing In Iraqi Waters?
See, this is where the premise falls apart.

England and the US *invaded* a sovereign nation. Britain and the US don't fucking own Iraq. But by following their line of reasoning regarding the territorial boundary, we conveniently forget that.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #280
283. Operating under a U.N. mandate
You may think such a mandate shouldn't exist, but that's what they were doing.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #283
286. And You Think It Should Exist?
sidenote: I wonder whose waters the British were in when they entered an Iranian cargo boat.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #286
288. I don't know. Someone suggested
that it would be better to have those doing the patrolling in those waters, coming from Arab countries. That may make sense, though some of those countries are in very adversarial relationship with Iran themselves.

And it wasn't an Iranian ship that the brits boarded.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
284. great post and great thread
I also think Iran is in the wrong.
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liberal1973 Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #284
287. I think Iran is in the wrong too.
I mean just give back the British sailors. To me this is all extremely childish.

I remember on Sam Ceder show awhile back Henry Rollins was on and he just came back from Iran. He talked about how the Iranian people doesn't like their leader at all. He also said that they consider him just like Bush.
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