Can someone be "pro-gay" but not be "pro-transgender"?

[SayWhatYo]

Let's say you have no issues with homosexuals and you think they should have all the same rights as heterosexuals. However, when it comes to transsexuals, you feel put off by them. Now, you don't think they should be discriminated against or have less rights, you just don't personally understand it or want to be associated with those who make such choices. Whats your opinion on this?

[SoCalDem]

1. Why do "people" have to even care one way or another?

Personal stuff like this is important to the people concerned, but to the rest of us, it should not matter ONE BIT...

What people do with their own personal lives should be NO ONE's business but their own!!
This is one thing that's very wrong with our country. People feel as if they simply MUST take a stand on everything..

Your mother's advice is what people shoudl follow.. Every mother tells her kids to "leave .... alone"...Mind your own business...Mind your tongue...Try to get along with everyone..

If more people listened to their Moms we would all be happier:)

[bryant69]

3. Right on

Personal feelings, even if somewhat objectionable, are nobodies business but the person involved UNTIL such a person decides they want to enforce their personal feelings through harrasment or legislation.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[SayWhatYo]

44. I agree that what people do in their personal lives is their choice...

and that no one has any say in what they can or cannot do. Nor do I think the government should be making policy about such things either.

[jmg257]

49. Excellent! Why worry about ANY others, if they don't inflict on you? nt

[gollygee]

2. Which part of being transgendered do you think is a choice?

You said "such choices" - which choices are those?

I don't mean to beat up on you because it's good that you're honest with yourself, but you might want to consider that part of what's going on in your head. What I know of it (which I'll admit is limited) is that it is a pretty torturous situation to be in - to have your body be different from your internal feeling of who you are. I don't see how that could be a choice.

[Deep13]

4. People can think what they want.

No one is evil because of a gut reaction. Public policy is what matters.

[racaulk]

5. I suppose. Homosexuality and gender dysphoria are completely different issues.

Some food for thought for you though: transexuality is not a choice. Gender is such a huge part of anyone's self-identity, no matter who you are. And from my understanding, when your biological gender does not match the gender that you self-identify with, then you're in a very difficult situation that has serious, life-long consequences for you and everyone around you. It's not a "choice" as simple as "Well, I don't want to be a man anymore, I'll try being a woman instead." I get what you're saying, but I think the wording in your OP is a little awkward.

But more to the point, why does anyone have to be "pro-" or "anti-" anything that doesn't have a direct effect on their lives? Live and let live.

[Marrah_G]

6. I think there will always be people who feel uncomfortable with people they don't understand

Doesn't matter what color or race you are. Makes no difference if you are straight or homosexual. We all have it in our DNA to be wary of people/things that we do not know or understand. There are not large numbers (comparatively) of TG people so not everyone knows one personally. Attitudes towards homosexuals are changing because more and more people are open about it, make it less "scary". My teens don't think being gay is much different then having green eyes. They don't see it as anything but normal.

[Jersey Devil]

7. What do you mean "put off by them"?

I don't care what anyone else's sexual orientation is and think it's their own personal business.

Whether someone is straight, gay, transgendered, purple or prefers to wear bananas as an outer garment, why the hell would I care?

What are you asking?

[kdpeters]

8. Sure you can.

You can't be "pro-equality" or "pro-freedom" or "pro-live-and-let-live", but you can be "pro-gay". Lots of people compartmentalize their acceptance of other people and reserve judgement at random. It's not uncommon at all.

[kdpeters]

14. But let me make it clear, if you think THIS gay is OK, but those transgenders not..

I'd rather not have your pro-gay as it is just as conditional for me as for them as long as you think you approve of me. No thank you. I'm not asking or wanting your approval. I'm DEMANDING equality and respect -- not just for me, but all human beings. So take your "pro" and shove it. You're not on my side!!

[mondo joe]

9. They are different issues - but I think it's about being PRO EQUAL RIGHTS rather than pro gay,

or pro anything else.

[bicentennial_baby]

10. So how is being transgendered a choice?

Please, enlighten us... :eyes:

[SayWhatYo]

45. I don't know...

.

[LostinVA]

11. TG is not a choice at all -- not anymore than sexual orientation

I'm very confused by your choice of words.

Could you pelase elaborate? Thanks!

[NorthernSpy]

28. the psychological component is not chosen, but the associated behaviors are...

Me, I'm inclined to concede that much.

The bottom line is still the same, though: discrimination and intolerance are still wrong.


(edit: proofreading)

[RedCappedBandit]

48. Mind telling us..

how associated behaviors are seperate from the psychological component of being transgenered? ...

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[DubiousLee]

12. sure...its like being "pro-asian", but feel "put off" by the blacks.

selective irrational bigotry.

[LostinVA]

18. Good way to put it

[DubiousLee]

22. I personally don't understand those that chose to be black.

It would have been so much easier to choose white, as far as education and opportunity go.

[kdpeters]

24. Personally, I'd give anything to have some color

Despite what Chris Rock says. Be it African, Native or Asian. I've found people of color to be much more mature and realistic about issues of race and MUCH less racist than white folks in general. But I can't choose my skin color. I can't even stand in the direct sun for more than 15 minutes.

[LostinVA]

38. I know, I can't understand why they made it their lifestyle choice

[kiahzero]

13. When you say "you," you mean "I", don't you? (n/t)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Hmmm

I don't think gender identification is any more of a choice than sexual orientation and I think that's what the research also suggests.

[kdpeters]

16. I'm not a bigot to other religions or creeds

I'm not sure what choice has to do with it at all.

[ShortnFiery]

17. Yes, but that would qualify the person as a first rate bigot. No better than right wingers.

The way a person decides to present his/her SELF is no business of you or I, average Joe/Jane American as long as their behavior does not harm society at large.

Especially if a man wishes to dress as a woman OR follows through with hormones and surgery, they are being genuine to themselves and not harming us.

Sincerely, God Bless Them (especially, men who feel more comfortable within the feminine gender/sex) because it's not an easy task to go out in public as a woman. I often could care less if I touch up my lipstick during the day. Don't even get me started about the torture of heels on our shoes OR the fact that it's a racket that our nylons always run. :P :blush:

[Lerkfish]

19. unless I'm dating someone, their gender is a nonissue to me

and so is their orientation.

now, politics is a different story :)

[sniffa]

20. that's a personaL choice some peopLe make

to be bigots.

[swimboy]

21. Yo, OP! What is your opinion on these opinions?

Can we help you with this issue or have you gone on to other things?

[Richard Steele]

36. Looks like we got us a drive-by, swimboy.

I'm guessing we may be looking at some failed flamebait.
Not the first time this OP has piqued my interest, y'know?

[LostinVA]

39. Yup

[SayWhatYo]

42. Hmm, odd thing to say...

I find it funny that you call my question flaimbait. That is not my intent. You claim that this is not the first question I asked that "piqued" your interest. Well, that's the point of my questions. I tend to think about things that are often times not discussed or thought about. But hey, you're entitled to think what you want.

[SayWhatYo]

43. Yes, in fact I did go on to other things...

I asked this morning and then I had other things to do. I do not see why that is an issue.

[Tyler Durden]

23. PRO/ANTI is specious horse shit.

Whenever someone starts saying stuff like that, I automatically start subbing in other minorities for the defining name.

Then it just sounds silly.

[SayWhatYo]

53. point taken.

[NMMNG]

25. "Such choices"

Transgenderism/Gender identity is not a choice, just so you know.

[NorthernSpy]

26. I take a dim view of self-mutilation in general...

Surgical "cures" for psychological states have been a disturbing trend since the days of lobotomy -- and even before then.

Also, I do not seriously believe that any known medical technique can actually transform a man into a woman.

That said, job or housing discrimination, etc, against either transsexuals or gays is unjustified. The behavioral aspects each of these identities do not mitigate the wrongness of discrimination. After all, religious identification is at least as behavior-defined as sexual or gender orientation are, and we don't permit discrimination on the grounds of religion.

Beyond that, I am personally tolerant of transsexuals, just as I am tolerant of gays, and tolerant of most people in general. I dislike those who discriminate or express hatred against gays and transsexuals.

[HamdenRice]

29. The "surgical cure" is for a problem in the genetalia, not in the brain/mind

As a New Yorker, I'm probably among the few DUers who have had transsexual friends. One friend in particular told me that she has always thought of herself as a girl, even from her earliest memories.

Science seems to suggest that TG women do indeed have female brains in male bodies. The surgical cure is to align the body with the brain, and is not a surgical cure of a psychological state, by which I infer you are suggesting mental illness.

Transsexualism, to the extent it's a medical syndrome needing treatment, is a syndrome of the genetalia, not of the brain/mind.

[NorthernSpy]

34. there are those who say the same thing about elective amputation of their legs...

There again, the body doesn't match the mind -- supposedly. It's about being a one-legged person inside a two-legged body. Or something like that.

I don't think surgery is the answer for "Body Integrity Identity Disorder", either.




Body Integrity Identity Disorder

[RedCappedBandit]

50. No offense intended, but..

It is apparent that you are relatively ignorant on the subject at hand. If you are actually interested, it might help to do some more reading, but judging from this post you are misinformed.
I don't want to get into an argument, but you can hardly classify such procedures as "self-mutilation" Also, MOST people with gender identity disorders do NOT undergo the surgery to transform their genitalia, which is what I believe you are referring to.

[philosophie_en_rose]

27. would liking people that are asian make it okay to be prejudice against people that are black?

If you recognize and confront yourself about your issues, then you can resolve them.

I don't think it matters whether or not you're "pro gay." If you're prejudiced against people that are transgender, you are still a bigot.

[NorthernSpy]

31. already asked and answered...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=521527&mesg_id=521661


Analogizing race to sexual or gender orientation is problematic, because there is very little associated behavior necessary to the formation and maintenance of a racial identity. You can become black upon learning that you have a single black ancestor: no other action on your part is needed.

The behavioral component of gender or sexual identity appears to be much greater, on the whole.

[SayWhatYo]

51. That's what I was thinking about this morning when I initially asked this question.

As I stated in the original post, I am not talking about government policy or anything. I think everyone should be treated as equal no matter what they are, do or smell like.

Basically you're saying that if you're prejudice against any human then you're bigot. I agree with that. However, when I started going down that line of thought I started thinking about convicted child molesters. I may not know them but I wouldn't want anything to do with any of them... Now, that right there is being bigoted. However, the difference is that many people do not see a problem with that sort of bigotry because of it's being applied against. So who gets to decide what is acceptable bigotry and what isn't? Sure there some, or ?many?, who say there should be none and that everyone no matter what they've done or do should not be judge solely on that. I dunno, I was just thinking about that and that is why I asked this question.

It seems to have offended or at least upset many people though... Perhaps due to my poor wording and lack of explanation about why I asked.

[LeftishBrit]

30. I don't think it's being anti-gay; but it's a form of prejudice in itself

'Transsexualphobia' rather than 'homophobia' perhaps.

The sorts of prejudice that involve simply not wanting to be personally involved with a group of people tend to be less harmful than those that involve active legal discrimination against them; but it's easy for one to lead to another; e.g. if 'not wanting to be associated' leads to reluctance to employ such a person.

[Solly Mack]

32. Don't fear happy feet.

I don't rightly care who you're comfortable around as long as you never do anything that infringes upon the rights of others.

You're not required to like people you see as different but you are required to not discriminate against them.

But I gotta say, you are allowing your fears - and your feelings of discomfort are rooted in fear - to limit yourself. You could be missing out on some great friendships. That's just sad.

A person might not think they have anything in common with someone they see as different - but how would you know that if you're only judging them by skin hue or gender or sexuality? You're judging them by one part of who they are - and projecting societal stereotypes as well as your own fear onto them and then discounting them as people worth knowing. As people you wouldn't have anything in common with..when you just don't know that...it's all based on fear and prejudice.

See, I can understand not wanting to be around people who hate or discriminate against others..or who think their "kind" are the only "kind" that deserve rights....those people are toxic and taint everything they touch...but to limit your range of awareness and friendship over the varying attributes people are born with...well, that's just stupid.

You're not born hating those different from you. You're not born fearing those different from you...someone along the way had to teach you to fear others. Either directly or through their own negative reactions to what they themselves saw as different. Society is a big shaper of such fears.

Don't fear Happy Feet. We all have a "human" song inside us - our songs just express themselves differently is all.

[pink-o]

33. This is the problem with "moral" judgements conflicting with science

It is a scientific fact that as an embyo grows in the womb, it starts out as female, then if it's gonna be a baby boy, the Y chromosome and the testosterone kick in at a later stage of fetal development. Now, with that in mind, doesn't it seem logical that some embryos might end up with crossed wires? At some point in their evolution, the brain gender and the body gender could get mixed up?

I've known many trangendered people of both sexes--albeit more male-to-female than vice-versa. My friend Donna went to high school with me as Don, and her father was a fire-and-brimstone evangelical baptist (also our music teacher). So if anyone thinks that Donna "chose" to live her life as a woman, with that powerful, judgemental figure as a father, then they need to think again. She was in agony all thru her years as a male, and when she realised she couldn't live a lie anymore, she ended up alienating her wife, her brother and most of her family. You can't know her and not feel angry at a society that would put such a fine person thru such unnecessary pain.

Listen, the best way to end any prejudice is to take each person as an individual. Most transgendered people are kind, caring people who're no threat to any of us. They've already been thru hell, I believe they deserve our understanding and compassion. At least, if we're gonna get angry at them, it should be based on the same criteria that we use for the rest of humanity.

Oh, and BTW, transgender is a totally different issue than being gay. I believe both are genetically encoded in our DNA, but I know a male-to-female transgender who's sexual orientation is attraction to women. So once again, it's important to take each person as an individual and try to jettison the moral judgement.

[youthere]

35. I'm not sure I understand the question...

are you asking if I think it's okay for someone to feel uncomfortable with transgendered individuals, or if I think it's okay to allow discrimination against transgendered individuls?

[SayWhatYo]

52. uncomfortable, not discriminate.

I tried to make it clear that I didn't mean discrimination. I was thinking more on a personal level. I mean, of course people are free to feel how they want(so long as they do not discriminate). Assuming you try to be open minded and accepting of everyone, where do you draw the line and who decides where that line can acceptably be drawn?

[LeftyMom]

37. I think letting your biases guide your actions is a bad idea. nt

[DrunkenMaster]

40. apparently you can still be an idiot

That's my opinion.

[SayWhatYo]

46. I can't help that fact...

I was born an idiot, but thank you for those kind words. :D

[slackmaster]

41. A former girlfriend of mine stopped using a pharmacy because of a transgender clerk

The person frightened her. She's a registered nurse and deals with all kinds of scary people in a psychiatric facility.

[RedCappedBandit]

47. There is no "choice" to become transgendered..

You're born that way.

[stirlingsliver]

54. What?

"Let's say you have no issues with homosexuals and you think they should have all the same rights as heterosexuals."

OK. this makes you someone who supports full rights for gay people.

"However, when it comes to transsexuals, ... you don't think they should be discriminated against or have less rights,"

OK. This makes you someone who supports full rights for trans-gendered people.

"However, when it comes to transsexuals, you ...don't... want to be associated with those who make such choices."

OK, this makes you someone who chooses "not to be associated" with transgendered people.

So, if you are all three, you are someone who supports full rights for gay and trangendered people, but does not choose "to be associated with" transgendered people.

Before I can render an opinion, I need to know what YOU mean by "does not want to be associated with" transgendered people.

[LaurenG]

55. Locking

Flamebait.