Who, if anyone, is criminally responsible in this situation?

[Liberal_in_LA]

Would you consider the pusher to be responsible for victim's death?

http://www.wwltv.com/topstories/stories/wwl010209tprunover.2fdb9698.html

Woman run over and killed after being pushed from truck in Metairie

12:56 PM CST on Friday, January 2, 2009

Tom Planchet / Eyewitness News

METAIRIE, La. - A 32-year-old Metairie woman was run over and killed after being pushed out of a truck following an argument with the vehicle’s driver, according to Jefferson Parish Sheriff Newell Normand.

The incident occurred about 10 a.m. near the intersection of Transcontinental and Veterans Blvd. in Metairie.

Normand said the victim, whose name is being withheld, was arguing with the male driver, identified as 37-year-old Lawrence Mangerchine of Arabi, when Mangerchine opened the passenger door to the truck and pushed her out onto the street.

Normand said the woman got up and ran to the driver’s side of the truck to confront Mangerchine when she fell to the ground and was run over by the truck and a trailer which was being towed by the pickup.

[jgraz]

1. Dick Cheney

Actually I'm not really sure, but Cheney is a reasonable guess in any situation.

[Cronus Protagonist]

2. Naw, she ran around and fell into traffic all on her own

Darwin award.

[Warpy]

11. That's my take

but the driver is guilty of aggravated assault for pushing her out of a vehicle in traffic.

[LisaL]

13. Allegedly she was run over by the truck and the trailer of the

guy who pushed her out, after she attempted to stop him, as he was driving away.

"Investigators said the woman was in the passenger seat in Mangerchine's vehicle, and the two were arguing when he opened the door and pushed her out, Fortunato said. She got up and ran to the driver's side door in an attempt to stop him, but fell to the ground as Mangerchine drove away.

The woman went under the vehicle and was run over by the truck as well as a trailer it was towing, Fortunato said."



http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/metairie_woman_dies_after_bein.html

[varkam]

22. Well if he was driving...

and pushed her out of the vehicle and took off, I would say it was foreseeable that she could fall and be injured or killed by the vehicle. In that case, I would think he could be charged with some form of reckless homicide.

[Liberal_in_LA]

28. agreed. manslaughter or murder 2.

[varkam]

32. If he gets a good atty, he might be able to plead down to negligent homicide...

depending on the facts, of course (and how overworked the DA's office is). Alternatively, the DA could argue for murder 1 on the basis of extreme reckless disregard for the value of human life / depraved heart. I wouldn't think that this situation goes that far, though.

[damntexdem]

16. For pushing her out of the truck onto the street, the driver has primary responsibility.

For running around the truck, she has secondary. The driver should be charged with negligent homicide, if not 2nd degree murder -- perhaps the former, given her contribution to the incident.

[Cronus Protagonist]

20. If she had stayed where she was when she got out, would she have been injured?

If not, the responsibility is all hers.

[Trajan]

3. At first blush ... I was going to say yes

But : She apparently was 'ok' after falling out, and, using her own volition, got up and walked around the vehicle, where she fell, independent of the other party ....

One might be able to argue she was injured by the 'pusher' and so her inability to navigate on her feet after that act caused her ultimate demise ... But that would be a hard sell in a courtroom ....

Very tragic ....

[LisaL]

5. I think it depends on what exactly the situation was.

The article says she had to run to the driver's side to confront the driver. How far was that from where she landed? Could she have made it safely if she didn't run to the driver's side to confront the driver?

[Hanse]

4. Wal-mart.

They should have provided adequate security.

[elleng]

6. You seem to assume some 'criminal' responsibility;

I am not at all sure that's the case. Seems like a confluence of bad circumstances, without any intention by anyone to do such serious harm. The WORST intention appears to be that the driver assaulted her.

[varkam]

33. Intent isn't required for a homicide charge, though.

For murder 1 (or just murder in some jurisdictions) and voluntary manslaughter, some kind of intent is required (or extreme recklessness). You can also have reckless homicide (e.g. involuntary manslaughter) and negligent homicide, whether basically the defendant just disregards an unjustifiable risk that death will result from their conduct.

[elleng]

34. Hey varkam!

Enjoying school???

How would THIS post do, as an exam question?

[varkam]

35. Lol! It's good, but very very busy.

The 2Ls told me that law school would be a lot like a full time job. I figured "Sweet! I can put 40 hours a week into this, easy!" But, in reality, it's more like two full time jobs. I have never been so busy. I'm learning a lot, but I feel like I know a lot less than I did before I started...I guess that's the paradox of education.

And actually, I think that this post would make a pretty good exam question. It touches on issues of the mental component of crimes (i.e. intent) and cause. Also, I think that the natural inclination of many people would be to think that he is criminally responsible because of the initial shove, and so questions that lead to somewhat counter-intuitive results through application of the law make for good exam questions (because there's no BSing there). On my criminal law final, there was just one question - though admittedly that question was five pages long. Yeesh - glad that's over with.

:toast:

[elleng]

36. You sound great!

Human and analytical! As to the 'paradox of education,' some of my most pleasant experiences are discussions with my lawyer father (95) and brother about legal matters; learn something new every time, and I've retired and been out of Lschool for 30+ years!

As to 'causation,' ever heard of Palsgraff?

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

[varkam]

37. Lol! Let me tell you 'bout some Palsgraff...

For the life of me I will never understand how someone can be as bright as some of the more famous jurists were, like Cardozo in Palsgraff or Hand in Carroll Towing. They're given these incredibly sticky situations and manage to not only solve them but then to set these precedents that stand the test of time. Oh, and having a name like Learned Hand is just bad ass. Whenever I read a case by hand I would always imagine him walking down the street in his robe to the theme of Shaft. "I'm just talkin' bout Hand!" Lol...god I'm so lame.

The day we were discussing Palsgraff in Torts was actually one of the days that the professor called on me (damn that Socratic method). I managed to give him what he was looking for, but thankfully this professor is a "nice" one who won't chastise you if you get it wrong. In fact, sometimes he goes overboard with it by letting someone go on for five minutes with a completely wrong answer only to say "Well, I can see why you would say that because of X, Y, and Z, but that's not exactly what I was looking for" and then just calls on someone else. Meh, he's an awesome professor though.

My favorite causation case was In re Polemis - where some folks unloading a merchant ship dropped a wooden board into a hold which, somehow, created a spark and started a fire that engulfed everything and the court found them liable for all the damage. For the life of me I still can't figure out how dropping a wooden board would start a fire. My only guess is that it had to have hit something metal that hit something else that was metal and created a spark.

I actually liked pretty much all the cases that I have had to read. With one exception. Pennoyer v. Neff. I hated reading it because it was very much like "stirring concrete with my eyelashes." It made absolutely no sense whatsoever (though later, when I read the back story, I laughed my ass off), and then two weeks later, when we read International Shoe, it didn't even matter any more. Argh! I have a running joke with some of my fellow classmates that there will never be a "Law and Order: Civil Procedures Unit". Not a lot of explosions and car chases in that show, just a lot of paperwork and "I'm sorry ma'am, but this court cannot exercise personal jurisdiction over the defendant". :rofl: I really am lame.


Thanks for asking how I'm doing, though! Right now I'm just glad to have a little time off. What area of law did you specialize in when you were practicing?

[elleng]

39. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

edit: DELETE!!!

[varkam]

40. Oh god! Get it away! Get it away!

:rofl:

It was actually while I was trying to digest that case that I had my first good law school freak-out. I think, probably not coincidentally, three of my classmates dropped out around that time.

[eyesroll]

7. Based on the little information provided...the answer may be "nobody," at least not for the death.

She was pushed out of the truck. The driver may be guilty of a battery of some sort for the push (who knows--maybe Louisiana specifically criminalizes pushing people out of the car).

She was not injured from the push, however--at least not mortally. She got up and voluntarily ran over to the driver's side of the truck and fell over. She did have the option to just walk away. (If, say, the driver pushed her into oncoming traffic where she was hit by another car, I would say the driver could be charged with the homicide. But here, her independent act interrupted the chain of causation.)

If the truck driver could have reasonably stopped or swerved before hitting her, he may be guilty of negligent homicide. (I'm not going to look up Louisiana's criminal code for the exact terminology, but you get the idea.) If he deliberately hit her, intentional homicide.

If the truck driver had no reasonable way of stopping before hitting her, it may have just been a tragic accident.

My take, anyway. It's been awhile since I took Criminal Law, and that's not my field.

[elleng]

10. You field is WHAT, eyesroll???

hahaha!

Pretty good, imo!

PS, we've got to remember its LOUISIANA, with The Napoleonic Code!!!

[petronius]

19. It sounds like the vehicle was stopped when she was pushed out, and he

started moving again after she ran around to the drivers side. So, not only did he have reasonable time to stop, he shouldn't have started moving in the first place. It seems to me (moral opinion, not legal) that the consequences of pushing someone into traffic are foreseeable enough that he is responsible for her death. By the same token, the possible outcome of putting the pedal down while someone is at the window is also foreseeable...

Rationally, she should have moved immediately to a place of safety, but her mistake doesn't absolve him of culpability, IMO.

[varkam]

44. Sometimes legal culpability and moral culpability are not one in the same.

I read a case that happened in Vegas several years ago. A little girl was raped and killed in a bathroom of a casino by a 17 year old. His 13 year old friend came in as the girl was being assaulted and just left - didn't try to stop the 17 year old, didn't get an adult, just did nothing. He could have saved her life, but for whatever reason chose not to. IMO, he is morally culpable for that death. However, he was not legally culpable. At the time in Nevada, there was no "Good Samaritan" statute and traditionally a failure to act did not satisfy the elements of a crime unless it was within a specific category (none of which applied) and so the 13 year old was not held responsible at all (though the 17 year old was given LWOP).

[Liberal_in_LA]

27. Good analysis. Story changed... the pusher may have run over her.

[csziggy]

30. The last paragraph of the article includes a witness statement that contradicts the "falling over"

Michael Deplantier, a mechanic, says he actually witnessed the woman being struck. "I seen when the body was in the air, which I saw was a good five feet. It hit the back of the trailer, well, the front of the trailer, back of the truck. The trailer was being pulled by a truck and the front part of it hit."
http://www.wwltv.com/topstories/stories/wwl010209tprunover.2fdb9698.html

For her body to be thrown into the air, she had to have been hit pretty hard. The story at the original link says nothing about "falling over."

[varkam]

45. True enough, but...

...eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. If you've got five eyewitnesses, they're probably saying five different things.

[Robbien]

8. me

As a tree hugging leftie peacenik, one gets used to being blamed.

[dbackjon]

9. Lawrence of Arabi (LA), that is)

[tkmorris]

15. Noticed that

If you'd made it up no one would believe it.

[iamjoy]

12. Why Did She "Fall"?

Did the man push her again or change the direction/speed of his vehicle? Had the initial injury left her dizzy or weak? As for the driver that actually ran over her, could he/she have stopped or swerved? Was that driver observing all rules of the road

In any case, I don't know that it would hold up in a criminal court.

Now as a civil matter, it is very easy to determine who is responsible. Who has the most money/best insurance.

[LisaL]

14. It doesn't appear that she was run over by a different person.

http://www.nola.com/news/index.ssf/2009/01/metairie_woman_dies_after_bein.html

[Ex Lurker]

17. Guilty of domestic violence at least....

you guys are letting this misogynistic creep off light.

[Liberal_in_LA]

29. Defense attorney for pusher could say she attacked HIM, he pushed in self defense.

and he floored it to get away to safety.

[pl259]

18. Whoever designed the door is the culprit.

...

[-..__...]

26. Wonder how long it will take the next of kin...

to file a lawsuit against the truck manufacturer, sub contractor that made the door hinges/locks, state highway department, company that supplied the asphalt for the road, etc.

I'm wagering about 30 million will help ease any pain and suffering, loss of income, etc (minus the lawyers cut of course).

[Greyhound]

21. Can anyone pinpoint just when accidents ceased being accidents and became crimes?

This is tragic, but doesn't the dead woman bear responsibility for her actions? Even a child knows that you shouldn't do that.

[pl259]

24. There are actually some Americans who believe nobody should be held accountable

for his/her own actions. Frighteningly enough, some of them are Democrats. And no, I cannot explain it.

[varkam]

43. Welcome to DU, but I call hyperbole.

Who is saying that "nobody should be held accountable for his/her own actions"?

[elleng]

25. INTENTION is a major attribute of criminal action.

.

[Greyhound]

49. True, and this may not be the best example, but it seems this is indicative

of a general trend to criminalize just about everything.

We're arresting little kids for being stupid little kids, for fuck's sake.

[elleng]

50. It IS a good example, in fact.

We've historically held that children and others (for example, the 'insane') are not capable of having the proper 'criminmal' intent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

[McCamy Taylor]

23. Not enough information available. She could be a criminal for all we know.

The woman could have been conducting an attempted car jacking and the man was trying to get away. You have to be careful that you have all the facts before you make an assessment based upon incomplete information. We do not know why he ejected her from his vehicle or took off. The man might have been handicapped, and the woman targeted him thinking he would be an easy mark.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

31. Nothing Criminal About It From The Details Given. Just A Tragic Accident.

[ConsAreLiars]

38. Predictably, you side with the killer.

Pushing someone you argue with into highway traffic to get run over and killed is something you approve. Yeah. Of course you do. At least you are consistent.

[McCamy Taylor]

41. Are you assuming the man is a killer based on gender? I'm female and I know better than that.

If the driver were a woman who pushed a man out of her car and he ran around to the driver's side and she tried to drive off and he got run over, there would be a lot of people here saying that they needed to get more information about why she felt the need to force him out of her car and get away from him before they could form a judgment.

Stop basing your opinions on gender prejudice guys. You do not know if the woman had a weapon---like a gun---that the cops did not scrape off the road immediately. Or if she was a psychotic stalker. Or if she was six feet tall and the guy was five two.

[varkam]

42. Wait.

The woman wasn't pushed out into highway traffic. After she was pushed out, she then ran around to the driver's side, fell, and was run over. Note though, that if she was run over by the guy who pushed her out then he's probably at least guilty of some form of reckless homicide. If he wasn't, I think a prosecutor would have a hard time proving that his actions caused her death because after he pushed her out, she then got up and ran around to the drivers side to continue the confrontation. While it is true that, in a sense, his actions "caused" her death in that if he hadn't of pushed her out then she wouldn't of run around to the other side to fall down and get run over. However, her actions would probably serve as an intervening cause, thus severing the scope of liability. He is, however, at least guilty of assault.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. He Did Run Her Over.

She ran to the drivers side door and he went to drive off instead of letting her continue the argument. She held/grabbed onto the side mirror as he drove off and she lost her balance and was run over.

I feel bad for the guy. He will definitely be charged with some form of negligent homicide that will change his life forever, and this woman also lost her life. So tragic. But it was just an argument that got out of hand with neither side intending the outcome. He just wanted to get the hell away from her not kill her. He probably should've had the judgment to stop as soon as realizing that she was grabbing onto the truck, but any of us that have been in that heated of an argument know that judgment isn't always clear. He was probably enraged at her and wanted to get the hell away from her. He didn't want to hear her anymore and just wanted to drive off. She grabbed onto the truck and when she fell was run over and killed. I don't think he deserves to rot in prison for years for that. Sad story.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

48. I Side With That Which Is Right.

He doesn't deserve to rot in prison for years due to this, but he very well may. Just an all around tragic story for both involved.

And they were stopped at the time. He probably demanded she get out and she refused. He likely forced her out while stopped which at best is simple assault. She chose to run to his door to continue arguing and he wanted no part of it. He went to drive off and she chose to grab onto the truck instead of letting him drive away. She lost her balance while grabbing onto the moving truck and was ultimately run over. It was a horrible accident and tragedy but calling him a killer, as if he did this in cold blood, is just simply ignorant and biased.

[HamdenRice]

46. Depending on circumstances, it could be "depraved heart murder"

There is a brief wiki article that explains it.