No one has a right to kill

[Taverner]

Not you, not me, not us

None of us

Sorry

Even in war, if the humane approach can be taken

Do it

No one should have to die in a war

It serves no purpose

[Pharaoh]

1. Ditto/k&r/nt

[Teaser]

2. no one has a right to anything

rights are a human construct, designed to serve particular ends. They have no objective reality.

[Taverner]

3. Well true

Technically you have a right to do whatever you can get away with

But ethically, you do not have a right to kill. Not in groups, not in governments, not in a duel - never.

[Winterblues]

60. In America supposedly we have a RIGHT to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness"

We also have other Rights granted to us by our Constitution, but killing people is not one of them..

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. One Always Has The Right To Kill, If One Needs To In Order To Maintain Self Defense.

[Taverner]

6. You do not have to kill

I fully support the right to own a gun

I full support the right to self defend

A shot in the kneecaps can be just as effective as a shot in the head

[Uzybone]

8. What if you can't aim for the knee caps?

[Taverner]

28. Then do what you can

You're eliminating a threat

But if given the choice, its the kneecaps or the heart - go for the kneecaps

[Cid_B]

54. There is never never never NEVER a choice...

... between center mass and kneecaps.

If you have made the decision to use that weapon then you have made the decision to do your best to end that person's life.

Reminds me of that "argument" I've heard so many times. "But Officer, why didnt you just shoot the gun/knife out of his hand as he charged you. He really was a good guy, just starting to get his life together. This is all your fault"

[RB TexLa]

10. You aim for mass, ie the chest. If one is ever in a position where the use of a gun is warranted

to save your life I hope they don't try to shoot someone's head or knee because they have a much greater chance of ending up dead.

[pl259]

12. If you shoot a home invader who has a gun in the kneecap, he can still shoot your wife

in the head.

[Taverner]

29. Have you ever had massive knee damage?

I have

Trust me - the last thing on your mind is shooting a gun

Its usually "damn, I hope I don't SHIT MYSELF because the pain is so much"

[awoke_in_2003]

49. Have you ever had massive knee damage...

hopped up on crack? Most home invasions these days are being done by people jacked up or looking for their next fix.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. Not Up To You Son.

If it's legitimate self defense than the person has the right. Mindless declarations like "aim for the kneecaps" are nothing more than feel good ideals. If someone is threatening with force, the most logical and rightful thing to do is to use deadly force as swiftly as possible. Your disagreement is irrelevant. You shoot for the kneecaps and may god be with you. But for others who choose the wiser strategy, more power to em and they are perfectly within their rights to do so.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. No it is not

Clearly the OP has never been in a situation of significant risk from another person.

[Taverner]

26. Look do what you can

Do what you can to minimize death

If you have a shotgun, going for the knees is a very realistic ideal

Especially if not using birdshot

If you kill the guy or girl, well - you tried not to

That is all one can ethically ask

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. Have you ever done any comeptitive shooting or martial arts?

If so you would realize the difficulty of that kind of thinking and control in a maximum stress environment.

The other thing to consider is that by the time deadly weapons are being used, the situation should have already gotten to the point where its clear someone is going to get really hurt or die and you are choosing not to be that person.

Your comments are well meant and I empathize with your intent, but they fly in the face of human physiology and practical experience. Aim to wound is much more likely to be a miss that a center of mass approach.

[bahrbearian]

56. Have you ever flown an F-16?

If so you would realize the difficulty of that kind of thinking and control in a maximum stress environment,
You'd also experience the joy of killing. The smell of Napalm in the Morning, that gives me a woody.

[spin]

53. In a self defense situation you shoot to stop the attack...

you are not shooting to "kill".

Police officers are taught to shoot for center body mass as it increases the chances of their hitting the target. Shooting in a stressful situation is far different from shooting on a target range against paper targets. Handguns are not truly powerful weapons and a shot to center body mass may incapacitate the attacker or slow him down without killing him. It all depends on "bullet placement". If you manage to hit the spine, you may drop the attacker immediately. Other shots to the chest may not be immediately effective.

A shotgun is a much more deadly weapon at close range if loaded with the right ammo. A shotgun blast to the chest with double ought buck shot will probably do far more damage than the average handgun. It is possible that a shotgun blast to the legs may be effective, but if the attacker has a firearm, he may well continue his attack.

If you are truly interested in learning a little more about this subject, I suggest you view this FBI report on a shooting incident in Pennsylvania.

WARNING: Graphic autopsy photos contained within the report.

http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/wp-content/uploads/officer.pdf

[Zynx]

15. Depends on the circumstance. Sometimes there isn't an alternative.

More importantly, sometimes there is proper time to react.

[Posteritatis]

16. No, it really can't (nt)

[minavasht]

22. Have you ever

tried to shoot somebody in the kneecaps? Ever?
Have you ever shot at somebody?
Have you ever shot at ANYTHING?
Few people can hit a kneecap-sized target at 15 feet at the range. Fewer will be able to hit it with the adrenaline pumping.
Even fewer will hit a moving kneecap when it's owner is hitting/stabbing/shooting you.
Do you have any more bright ideas?

Oh, BTW - why only guns? Is it OK to stab to death in self-defense?

[Taverner]

23. It's called a shotgun

Best method of self defense at home

[minavasht]

38. You shot somebody's

kneecap with a shotgun?
Were they able to reattach his legs at the hospital?

[Taverner]

40. Well yeah, they would be permanently damaged

But we are talking someone who wishes death upon you

Do what you can

[awoke_in_2003]

50. Oh great, they would be permanently damaged...

so when they got done serving their time (if they serve any) they can come back and pay you another visit, or lay in wait and ambush you.

[awoke_in_2003]

47. In a stress situation...

like making sure you children are safe, it is hard to hit small areas like knees or heads. That is why people are taught to aim for center mass. If someone comes breaks into my house with the children in the other room, I am not going to aim at the kneecap just so they can start blasting away.

[Uzybone]

7. +1

it is cliche, but there are really situations where its kill or be killed (or maimed, or enslaved etc.)

[JuniperLea]

9. Despite the lies told in wartime...

Rarely is it "him or me" or "kill or be killed."

[Zynx]

18. Often enough that it can't be said to not exist.

[JuniperLea]

27. Note I used the word...

"rarely"...

[bertman]

52. Juniperx, I find your comment "Rarely is it "him or me" or "kill or be killed." perplexing.

Having been in combat I disagree strongly; however, I await your explanation.

[JuniperLea]

58. Hand to hand combat is something different altogether

I'm talking about this lobbing of bombs back and forth. There's no good reason.

[bertman]

61. Hand-to-hand combat is rare when compared to other forms, but in an artillery duel

if your strikes don't hit the enemy first then you are likely to be the loser--in the ultimate way.

[JuniperLea]

5. It scares me how many times I've read here today...

That this group or that group should be bombed to oblivion. Even here on DU there are those who take the W approach... chilling, isn't it?

[subsuelo]

11. The excuses seem endless don't they

[GodlessBiker]

14. *If* the humane approach can be taken? And if it can't?

[shadowknows69]

17. Then back to the fucking drawing board until one can be found.

[Zynx]

19. Sometimes there is not that luxury of time.

[GodlessBiker]

21. As more Jews, gay people, and gypsies are being gassed in the ovens. How many drawing boards...

do we need to use?

[Taverner]

32. That's different

If genocide is taking place

Stop the genocide

But above all

Stop The Killing

[GodlessBiker]

35. Very good. Now we are making progress. So some killing is okay.

If someone is committing genocide, it is acceptable to kill them to stop the genocide.

[Taverner]

39. No I said stop the genocide

Not kill the people committing the genocide

Do what you can, and if you must kill, then do it

But stop the killing above all

[GodlessBiker]

43. "If you must kill, then do it." Some people, then, *do* have the right to kill.

In order to stop genocide.

[Taverner]

46. If killing happens in the process of stopping it then so be it

But if the aim is to kill, then we have a problem

[shadowknows69]

34. Come on

[Taverner]

30. Then do what you can

But indiscriminate bombing is never the answer

Even in WWII - The Bombing of Dresden was just as appalling as the Bombing of Christchurch.

[Maru Kitteh]

20. Hate puts us in the service of our worst masters

[specimenfred1984]

24. The purpose is very clear, it's money

The U.S. has been doing it for decades, perpetuating war and hate to cash in on it.

[VOX]

31. Agreed. But, if cornered with no alternative, I would kill in self defense, or to protect my family....

The taking of a human life is literally not something to be taken lightly. It can be justified only under the most urgent, threatening and desperate situations. Do I think I have a right to kill? No, not really, but I would not stand idly by if I or my loved ones were in peril.

As for war, it's an obscenity. And capital punishment should be done away with, utterly and completely.

[Taverner]

33. Well shit so would I

And if my home was invaded, and I had enough warning (rarely the case, but as long as we're talking hypothetical...) I would lie in wait with a shotgun, and when the intrude approached, I would shoot their right kneecap at point blank range.

Trust me, they won't be dead but they won't be moving either.

[Zynx]

36. A shotgun blast to the leg can damn well kill somebody.

Also, that's assuming you can pick your set up. Situations aren't always that neat.

[Taverner]

37. Well yeah, but first rule of life is do what you can

So, um, do what you can...

[Zynx]

42. Just don't be shocked when the bastard bleeds to death.

[rrneck]

41. Killing is wrong, every time

for any reason but sometimes it is necessary. Welcome to the human condition.

[HEyHEY]

44. James Bond does, so there goes that argument

[dcsmart]

48. WAKE UP and smell the napalm

are you kidding me. that statement makes no sense. no one has a right to kill. what does that mean. if you have a right to self-defense then you have the right to kill. but who makes these rights in the first place. Our country has the bill of rights which were agreed upon by the government. do you really think we have some inalienable right to bear arms or free speech. if they were not in the bill of rights would we then not have them. a right to kill or no right to kill, it happens. some people should be. do you think killing hitler or stalin or pol pot would have been wrong. it would be nice if people could figure out ways to solve problems without violence, but that doesn't happen nor should it. violence is sometimes justified. we need to clarify the circumstances when it is justified. we have the international declaration of human rights and we have international agreements on preventing genocide and we have international agreements on the use of violence. If you ever saw the movie, "the mission" ask yourself which side you would be on. i would be holding the rifle and pointing it at the spanish slave traders. the same would have gone for the serbs in bosnia and the janjaweed killing people in darfur. War is horrible and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. and sometimes it is.

[JVS]

51. Why not?

[asteroid2003QQ47]

55. Have you ever fired a shotgun? eom

[McCamy Taylor]

57. Only as a last resort in self defense if you can not subdue your opponent any other way

including acting like a decent human being and not a dick. And after, you should express sorrow so that everyone knows how awful it is to take another life. No bragging about how great it feels. No one likes killing. They pretend to so they can seem macho but if they really feel good, they are sick and twisted and need psychological help.

[LanternWaste]

59. I imagine we all...

I imagine we all self-define what is or is not a right, and self-define what has or does not have purpose.

For myself, I can't presume to possess either the depth of of wisdom nor the breadth of wit to maintain Absolutism in this odd little world filled with so many non-absolutes.

If I'm confident of only one thing, it's that there's simply so much that I don't (and never will) know-- including the questions, the answers, the ethics and the morality of death and war.