We need to offer this class for boys every year

[question everything]

Girls and women are not a punch bag!

If you are having problems in your life, angry at something or someone, you do not come home and hit your girl friend or your wife!

And if your girl friend or wife wants out and walks away, take it like a man! Don't go out to hit or kill her!

There is something wrong in our society, world wide, when women get hit and killed because the men in their lives have gone crazy.

And many boys, sadly, absorb this mentality at home. We need to instill the opposite in them, starting from their first grade. After all, we have heard about young boys molesting even younger girls.

Such classes, of course, will have to be modified as the boys grow up but we have to drill it in them day in and day out. Bring men who are role models, like NFL players, or Rappers, to whom the boys will listen to tell the boys that being a man means not hitting on a woman.

We need to take them to a shelter, to hear stories from battered women.

We need to bring former abusers who finally realized that this is not the way to treat women.

There are too many societies where women are treated like a piece of meat: being attacked with acid if they go to school, being buried alive if they are accused of adultery, being thrown to jail (if they are lucky) or killed if they have been raped.

Can we start with a comprehensive, repetitive program to teach boys and men that women should not be the ones being hit and killed and raped for whatever rage is in their lives?

[niyad]

1. k & r for this most important topic

[Sanctified]

2. You can offer it but I doubt anyone will show up. n/t

[question everything]

5. I should have clarified it as a mandatory class, like math or history

They will have to be there. Missing the class would disqualify them from graduating to the next grade.

[Sanctified]

9. Then my answer is changed to, NO.

This type of class would stigmatize men and send the message that all men are abusers which they are not. How about an easier class, the class my dad gave me and his dad gave him. I hit my sister one time when I was about 6 or 7 and my dad kicked my ass, not a belt or an open hand but a fist to the face with the message of never hit another woman again, it was the only time my father hit me like that. I have never hit a girl, girlfriend or my wife, in fact I once had a crazy assed girlfriend who went ape shit and started punching me in our apartment and I left over hitting back.

[lonestarnot]

15. Violence is a vicious circle. Offenders shall attend Court ordered therapy or prison.

:evilgrin:

[question everything]

17. Sure you were. Because you had responsible father at home

There are too many boys who are not that lucky as you and I were. Worse, in many cases the only man in the house is an abusive boy friend of the mother.

I don't know if there is a correlation between growing in a single parent home and growing to be abusive. And then there are fathers at home who are "proud" at their teenagers "conquers."

In the early 90s there was a mini scandal in South California where many teenagers formed some kind of a team to abuse and exploit girls and the fathers thought that it was great.

Offering this class to everyone will not stigmatize the boys who are poor or who are growing in a single parent home.

[leftstreet]

3. Mandatory Kick-Boxing classes for all girls

Problem solved

[PassingFair]

31. Tiny, pearl-handled revolvers issued at birth.

[Donnachaidh]

46. mandatory street fighting classes for all girls

Many times in fights men use their size and weight against women. While kick-boxing might help, they need to be taught how their own clothing could be used against them, and how to seriously drop an opponent or cause enough of a ruckus to get help.

Street fighting skills are far more useful.

[Hanse]

4. I was going to register for that class...

but the schedule conflicted with my Don't Set Things on Fire class.

[Taverner]

6. What about teaching women not to be violent either?

I know a few guys who have abusive wives.

And if you don't think wives can be abusive tell my friend that who still has a scar from when she hit him in the head with an iron.

[question everything]

14. I am aware of battered husbands

however they are still in the majority.

Yes, girls should be taught this, too, but I would channel more resources into indoctrinating boys.

[TwixVoy]

19. EVERYONE needs to be taught healthy relationships in general

usually this involves honesty, intergrity, compassion, respect. People should be made aware that these things make a healthy relationship. At that point those people can either strive for those things in life or they can not.

If you do not have these things then you can NOT have a healthy relationship. And guess what? You can not TEACH these things. People either have these chracteristics or they don't. You can't teach compassion or respect. Sure you can talk about them and explain why they are positive, but you can not make them a part of a persons character by way of any class.

[Taverner]

42. Yep women act just as insane as men in unhealthy relationships

Men don't have a monopoly on madness

[Skittles]

53. um Tavener?

violence against women is much, MUCH more prevalent

[comrade snarky]

60. Maybe it is

But I'll tell you this, violence perpetrated against men by women is way under reported in this culture.

You know how hard it can be for a woman to get the police to take domestic violence seriously, imagine how hard it is to be a man and try to get help dealing with a violent woman. Restraining order? Good luck with that.

on edit: dang tpyos!

[Poll_Blind]

35. It shows my ignorance at the time but before I knew my male friend was battered by his girlfriend...

...I would never have seriously believed that a woman could do that much damage. Of course he didn't lift a hand to defend himself. Violence is a serious issue for both sexes.

PB

[musette_sf]

7. K&R

so sad, but it's so true. thank you.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

8. Here's a few other things that aren't 'punching bags':

Kids
Smaller adults
Elderly parents
Pets

[question everything]

37. So true (nt)

[blue sky at night]

10. I agree completely........

men need to change the way they deal with Anger....but unfortunately they learn that from their dads.....and many dads are not changing any time soon. They instead are out teaching their eight year olds how to shoot guns. Violence is as american as "fill in the blank". When something is done about the access to guns and the worshiping of death, then maybe there will be hope for change, but for now, forget it.

[Cid_B]

62. Get over yourself...

I deal with, carry every day and have access to lots of guns guns guns ( some really big ones too). I refuse to hit a woman but obviously since I have a 9mm on my side I must "worship death"

[wellstone dem]

11. Men who abuse their wives or girl friends do not have anger problems

they have power problems. Very few abusers hit their boss, or hit anyone else for that matter. They can control their anger. They just don't do so with their closest partner.

[musette_sf]

18. well said

also sad but true.

[polmaven]

25. Good point.

But shouldn't boys be taught that real men do not "CONTROL" women?

[SmileyRose]

38. Amen

perfectly put

I was once married to one of these schmucks. Pure love and tenderness until the rings went on and the doors were closed. I never let him get to the beat me up stage. I drop kicked his sorry ass long before then. I remember him berating me over some made up bullshit at the top of his lungs, punching the walls and cabinets for intimidation purposes. I was refusing to be his doormat which created more punching and throwing of objects and screaming and blocking my way out of the house. He was in full uncontrollable rage until the apartment manager banged on the door to tell us to hush. He switched instantly into full self control.

I was gone forever within 24 hours. THANK GAWD for a supportive family who believed me and also knew I deserved better.

[question everything]

40. Smart move. Too many women hope that he will change

that it is a phase or, worse, they are too embarrassed to admit it, especially after an elaborate wedding and bridal showers etc.

Yes, you deserve better. I hope that since then you have found someone who loves and respects you without the "sound track."

[SmileyRose]

49. I did indeed find a REAL man.

Now I have the kind of man who is so kind and goodhearted to everyone that he doesn't need to use intimidation to get what he wants, all he has to do is ask (which he rarely does). This one will do windows if necessary, can sew on his own buttons, takes out the trash without being asked, would rather listen to me blather on than watch football and still can ask for his alone time or put his foot down without being a jerk. He is the kindest, sweatest and still "manly man" you'll ever meet. He's late 50's, balding, he's losing some teeth, he's getting quite a middle and was also a bit of a "plain joe". The girls ran after "perfect abs joe" and left him for me. Thank my lucky stars!

[TwixVoy]

12. First of all

no "class" is going to fix a social screw up with violent/murderous tendancy. If it would we should administer your "class" to every killer/abuser in jail and then release them knowing the problem is solved.

Secondly, the problem is a GENERAL unhealthyness of relationships in our society. I see it especially in younger people. I have observed more people than I would like who believe a relationship is about one of the following:

1. Money. BIG ONE RIGHT HERE!
2. Popularity/status - "I will marry X person because I feel they will advance my standing socially"
3. The immature fools who want a baby and feel using a baby to manipulate the relationship is a good idea
4. People who put their own desires ahead of the relationship, are incapable of working for another persons best interest, and should never be in a relationship
5. People who enter a relationship with the primary intention of manipulating/using the other person the entire relationship

Now maybe these people won't admit it. ESPECIALLY not to each other. I think this is when the breakdown and violence occur. The relationship was built on a false pretense, and an incredibly shallow one.

Now of course you also have your basic losers out there who are abusers simply because they are low life scum, and it is not at all the fault of the other person in the relationship. But many times when I see a screwed up relationship BOTH people are doing something unethical, or one person intentionally screwed over the other and then have the other person experiencing extreme prejudice against them.

Look at popular media even. TV shows like "The Bachelor" in which a rich/famous/powerfuly "Bachelor" gets real life shallow fools line up by the truckload who know NOTHING about him except the money/power/famous part. These people are willing to viciously compete against each other for a chance to literally MARRY this person they know next to NOTHING about. This show gets thousands apon thousands of people trying to sign up for it. The worst part is society in general views such activity/shows with extreme enjoyment, rather than disgust. That says it all right there.

Now if "The Bachelor" ended up beating the spouse he chose to mary on that show every single day would I feel bad for her? Probably, but I'd also put part of the blame on HER for choosing to enter a relationship under such grounds.

[Gwendolyn]

36. Do you really think that your five points are some new development?

I think in the days of yore, going back to the '60s even, women had a hard time succeeding on their own due to societal constraints and perceptions, so often married for money or social status. Getting in the family way was a relatively good way to ensure that marriage would follow, and many women thought having babies was the only value they had.

Shows like The Bachelor simply trash it all up for the current batch of teevee addicts, but the concept is really nothing new.

[question everything]

39. Yes, many enter into a relationship with their own agendas

and, in most cases, both of them are aware of it.

This has been human nature from the the first time humans crawled from the sea. For that matter, it is true in the animal kingdom when the biggest male gets the girls.

But, as others have stated - it is a matter of power. Power over minorities, over women, over animals, kids and the elderlies.

But I think that if someone that boys admire, from the world of sport or entertainment, tells them that hitting someone weaker, especially their significant other, is not "cool," that real men do not behave like that, perhaps something will sink.

Take them to visit a shelter, attend a trial when an abuser is sent to prison, just generate images in their mind that may stop their raised hand in mid air.

[Gwendolyn]

45. You're mixing different cultures and different types of abuses,

and lumping it all onto the backs of American men. That's unfair IMHO.

There was a time when men were taught to take off their hats, stand in the presence of women, give up their seats on the bus, open doors, and never curse if a woman was in earshot. There was just as much abuse then, as there is now. Those who are prone to violence will find some outlet for it.

I agree with those who advocate teaching ALL children that bullying and beating on those who are physically smaller is the better way to go.

[Fireweed247]

13. Our current politics and corporate media

are also not setting a good example. When we accept torture, when we see mindless murders on TV over and over, when we attack innocent nations for money...these are the examples the children are growing up with. And then there are the video games which promote stealing, killing etc. We should be moving forward as a society, but unfortunately we are going the other direction and an alarming rate.

[psychmommy]

16. this is a serious problem, which i feel will grow worse as the

economy worsens. shit rolls down hill-not necessarily a sexual issue. the dominant person in relationship takes their problems out on the less dominant person-could be spousal, parental, owner to pet or even boss to underlings. also our troops are coming home after multiple 18 month tours and possible ptsd-i see problems in the future (just like when some came home from the 1st gulf war). not troop bashing-please no offense meant to our vets but if we don't deal with the issues proactively, situations are gonna happen.

[question everything]

41. Already we have seen several murders in military bases here

by soldiers returning home.

This is something that we need to instill in soldiers and in football players: show aggressive, even murderous attack on the field, but not out of it.

[Cid_B]

64. I keep coming back to this thread....

Gosh, you should totally send an email to this guy.

http://www.army.mil/institution/leaders/csa/index.html

I'm sure they would do it if only you would let them know. Sheesh

[dysfunctional press]

20. maybe the class should be directed at fathers first, not to use their sons as punching bags.

violence begets violence. and the ones that are assaulted generally learn to take out THEIR frustration and agression on those that are weaker than them. and that generally comes around to being violence against women.

but the chain usually starts with an abusive father.

[TwixVoy]

22. Bullshit

I had an abusive father who beat me and my mother until we were both bloody most days of my childhood. I NEVER ended up being an abuser. This is an EXCUSE for people with poor character.

My brother, for instance, went through the same thing. So now here he is 30 years later STILL making the CHOICE to be a loser. I KNOW my own brother. He is inherently a lazy scum bag BY CHOICE. Always has an excuse for his bad behavior in life. Usually putting the blame on someone else.

As someone who went through abuse every day of his childhood I can tell you that you make a CHOICE after that abuse to either become that loser or become something better. Saying you are an abuser because you were abused is a lame weak excuse made by weak people, and only a fool should believe it.

[dysfunctional press]

24. back atcha...

maybe you should explore the difference between 'usually' and 'always'...there is one, you know.

oh...maybe you didn't. :shrug:

you do now. :hi:

[TwixVoy]

26. Nope it is ALWAYS an excuse

any abuser who wants to blame it on prior abuse is a weak person. NO ONE makes them be an abuser. It is a choice.

[dysfunctional press]

28. "It is a choice."

so is sucking dicks.

[question everything]

43. Kudos to you!

Someone have done a good job in your household instilling in you self respect and self worth.

I am not a social workers but data have shown that often the abused does become the abuser. So for you to escape this toxic cycle shows a strong character and determination.

I take my hat off to you.

:toast:

[unblock]

21. absoutely, but please correct the sexism in your post

men are certainly the majority offenders when it comes to physical abuse, but it's hardly a monopoly. i have personally known several victims of physical abuse at the hands of women. these matters are vastly more complicated, and also vastly underreported, because the stigma is 10 times worse for male victims than it is for female victims.

for what it's worth, back when i was an emt, the ONLY domestic violence calls i saw involved women batterers, though i'm not inclined to draw a global conclusion based on my limited, personal experience.


everyone gets frustrated and everyone needs to learn acceptable ways of coping, and at a bare minimum, that means no violence, especially not against those those you live with. it not correct to say "this is not the way to treat women". simply put, this is not the way to treat people, period.

[The Traveler]

23. Alas, it is like squeezing a balloon

The behavior is caused by deep internal conflicts. Deep internal scar tissue. We can in some cases train out this behavior, but the underlying problems will manifest in other ways, many of them violent.

It is not just a matter or "not hitting women" ... it is a matter of teaching a whole range of emotional skills which parents themselves typically lack. Our society places a great premium on teaching skills that have potential for producing good little workers ... not in teaching skills that produce well adjusted, spiritually whole, free thinking individuals capable of taking responsibility for their feelings and thoughts. The really sucky thing is that virtually all of us homo sapiens types have the capacity for that ... but to the degree we succeed we deviate further and further from the behaviors of Milton Friedman's "Economic Man" ... and very few in places of power have any interest at all in anything like that happening.

We can treat this symptom with some success, and I am all for that. I just have come to think that the behavior is but one symptom of the disease, that the huge number of perpetrators indicates an epidemic, and that we need to get our shit together in a fundmentally superior way if we are to deal with this.

Trav

[Karenina]

29. Bingo!

[tomreedtoon]

27. You expect American teachers to teach civility?

How stupid are you?

First of all, these are American teachers we're talking about, many of whom are simply licensed child abusers.

Second, it should be the job of parents to teach civility, and if they don't want to do it, they don't want teachers to teach it - that is, that seven or eight teachers in the entire US that aren't interested in humiliating and breaking students.

Third, children are naturally violent and vengeful. You try fighting that natural tendency in an institutional environment. Go ahead. I dare you.

The only way you can help prevent violence in school is to teach kids to duck and run. Those are skills I had to learn at a very early age, and they're all that works. And don't you dare quote those phony "anti-violence" school campaigns either - they are CYA enterprises to keep schools from being sued. "See, you can't blame us for your kid getting murdered - we had an anti-violence program!"

I repeat, how stupid are you?

[treestar]

63. How rude can you be?

Your generalizations about teachers and children are ridiculous.

[philly_bob]

30. Guys, you can break the cycle! Just cuz your father did it, you don't have to.

My grandfather hit my grandmother in the course of an unhappy marriage.

My father, watching it, decided that (1) he would never hit his wife and (2) he would concentrate on making the best marriage he could.

He did both. He had an enviable marriage -- romantic, secure, and prosperous -- and never once brutalized my mother.

There's a flip-side. If guys like my father and I decide we're not ever going to hit women, then the women in our lives have to take responsibility for their verbal behavior. There's such a thing as verbal abuse. When the woman in my life crudely calls me an "asshole," it's like she's taunting me, secure I won't hit her. I've never figured out a proper response. I tend to shout, which is probably not appreciated by my neighbors and is also verbally abusive.

Still, it's better than living with someone who has the frightened 'yes-dear' demeanor of a beaten woman. A couple prospers when decisions are made after looking at two points of view. MAN: "Honey, I'm going to invest all our money in ENRON/send the kids to a cult school/get an Alt-A No-Doc mortgage." WOMAN: "Yes-dear."

Besides, the tables turn as we age and the woman often gets stronger than the man.

[Trillo]

32. Shouldn't school child-to-child bullying be stopped first?

I know there's been a lot of discussion about bullying over the decades, and that some attempts have been made to address it, but it apparently it still occurs, and is a known problem in public schools. I've even read, here on DU, admissions that a certain amount of child-to-child bullying is allowed or accepted because it simply all can't be stopped coupled with the fact that teachers and other school personell simply have too many children under their supervision.

Your proposal, while appearing somewhat well intended, seems like more of a projection of ill intent onto all male children, while the problem isn't all male children, or from what I've read, even a majority of male children. How many male children who come from parents who do not abuse either each other or their kids will learn the unintentional lesson that males violently beat females from such lessons? (see all the historical evidence, it's natural)

For those of us who were indoctrinated with military-like honor codes in HS, it's a real eye opener to realize that such codes are forced down our throats so that 1) the rich won't be lied to by the poor, so 2) the rich won't be presumed to be the liars they often seem to be, and 3) as a suppression technique so the rich can continue lying and succeeding from those lies because (after the indoctrination of such honor codes and similar in formal education settings) there are fewer liars competing with them in the after-school years.

My point with the last paragraph, which on the surface seems off topic, simply has taught me that a few folks learned lessons that are nearly the exact opposite of what was taught in schools, and it's those few who seem to have achieved the greatest financial successes, so much so they're near celebrity status for their financial prowess in the minds of many.

[Orsino]

33. Violence, in general, needs to be uncooled.

Violence doesn't have to follow anger, humiliation or threats. Ignorant, frightened people resort to it almost instinctively in the absence of a culture that values life.

[fed_up_mother]

34. NO! How about a class against all abuse?

That I am aware of my father never abused my mother (but she did abuse him), my husband has NEVER abused me, and I am quite sure that my sons will not grow up to be abusers. I refuse to have my sons treated as potential abusers.

In fact, I'm quite sure my father stayed with my mother's abuse his entire life because he was afraid he would lose custody of his children if he left. The men in my life have all been more than honorable, and I'm not about to have my sons treated as if they aren't!

[chrisa]

44. America Treats Women Like Shit.

But instead of throwing acid in their faces and preventing them from going to school, we ridicule them to the point of severe depression if they have one ounce of fat on their bodies, and instill the idea into their heads that without being seen as a piece of meat by men, they will never be worth anything.

Our culture says that the only good women are those who are stupid and look like plastic, and everybody else is useless.

[Donnachaidh]

48. welcome to DU chrisa!

You've touched on one of the evils in this country.

[FirstLight]

47. As a domestic violence survivor, here's my 2 cents

I was married to the man for 3+ years, there was no indication at first that he was this "type"

In retrospect, I can name a half-dozen red flags in our first year of dating, but I was blind to Love I guess
He wanted to get married and have a baby, that was great with me because I wanted a family too... but he couldn't hold a job, was alienated from his crazy family and had a history of troubled earlier years and even had done some time... but I didn't care, he was an artist and was very flattering and good at putting on the charm - not to mention, I thought I was going to be the one person who gave him a chance to be more than his hostory or upbringing....
First argument where he threatened to leave me (as I was 6 mos preg) and I backed down...I knew that set the stage for him knowing my bottom line. He had the upper hand from that day on.

the deterioration got worse as our financial situation got more unstable, he got me pregnant again to keep me trapped, I had no car, no bank account (though he had credit cards in MY name that he maxed out and never paid) and I had less and less dignity. He actually punched me in front of the babies in one occasion in the car as we were trying to find a house since HE had gotten us evicted. and all I could do was sit there up against the door and wait for him to stop and feel bad..I won't even tell you about the sexual abuse, but it became clear he was disturbed...
I ran for my life with the kids 5 years ago, found child porn on MY computer after leaving and pressed charges, our 2yo daughter had to be xamined by the ME to see if she had been molested (inconclusive) and my infant son still has some signs of PTSD from me being thrown acros the room while pregnant. My teenager (from a previous marriage at 21, he was 9 when MR evil and I married) still has anger issues, and I can only pray that the continued transparancy of our recovery as a family will heal him. Though he has NO interest in realtionships, and I doubt he will EVER marry.

As I attended the classes at the local women's center after leaving him - I came to realize that regardless of the extent of the abuse, or the background of the abuser, the PSYCHOLOGY is eeriely the same. The cycle, the manipulation, the devaluing of the victim...ALL are textbook - no matter the economic situation or the class. THAT is what has to be addressed with this as a social issue. It is more an illness of both parties - some people are more likely to be victims (of anything) and some are more likely to be abusers... This is NOT something you can give a blanket class about in that way.

If anything, there should be at least three clases that are mandatory for teens (and young adults, maybe even recovering adults)
Self sufficiency 101 - basic banking, budgeting, investing, job negotiations, rent agreements, contracts, car loans, etc
Self Knowledge 101- idenifying your own patterns of positive and negative communication and emotional actions, peer groups
Community Building 101 - How to work in groups, how to cultivate community in neighborhods, business, and more

I know many say that this is the Parent's responsibility to teach to kids but the reality is that there are too many broken homes and broken people to take on that burden. If kids were exposed to healthy inter-personal communications, they could be more likely to bring that home and teach their families something. Many parents are too busy just trying to make ends meet to be there for their kids as much as they would like. As a society, we have to help eachother up, not break eachother down.

okay, so it was a little more than 2 cents!

[SmileyRose]

50. Yours is a very GOOD point

Those with economic and emotional independence/empowerment are much less likely to put up with abuse. And having a social network that supports victims and shuns abusers is also key.

Good post.

:hug:

[surrealAmerican]

51. We need to teach ALL our children that violence is NOT a solution ...

... to their problems. We need to teach nonviolent methods of solving problems. We need to be sure that our schools model nonviolent methods.

[cali]

54. sure, but that's no substitute for

what the OP is suggesting. And face it, domestic violence against women is a far, far bigger problem than the reverse.

[surrealAmerican]

55. I suspect that domestic violence against children ...

... may be an even bigger problem.

[cali]

56. I don't know.

but whether it is or isn't doesn't make the fucking epidemic of violence against women in this country any more acceptable.

[Skittles]

52. it's certainly a lesson best learned from fathers and other male figures in their lives

my dad taught all my brothers they could not hit me, their only sister

[lightningandsnow]

57. I'd say for everyone, actually.

While male-on-female relationship violence is the most common kind, same-sex relationship violence is also a prevalent problem that often gets swept under the rug. And, although less common, women do sometimes abuse male partners. Genderqueer and trans people can also be in abusive relationships, and are often afraid to seek help because of the gendered nature of most services for domestic violence victims.

There is clearly a lot of misogyny in our society that needs to be adressed. However, when it comes to relationship violence, I think gender-free, universal, inclusive messages are the best way to adress it.

[Missy Vixen]

58. NFL players aren't often the best role models

I love football, but some of these guys are the worst abusers due to a) being taught it's good to hit someone, b) the fact the league and law enforcement will look the other way when he's a "star", and c) believing their own press.

Our team screens for good character prior to draft or free agent signings, but there's two guys currently playing for the 'Hawks that have had DV arrests. One of them is (hopefully,) getting traded or cut very quickly. The other is a mystery to me. I'm not sure what's happening there.

If boys were going to be taught about domestic violence and its effect on the home, I'm thinking the best "role models" to teach those classes are former abusers.

IMHO, YMMV.
Julie

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Thanks for the new and valuable public service!

I've never heard that one before, thanks!

But my dance card is already pretty well filled up with "stop being such a pig" and "would it kill you to put the toilet seat down".

I think I've got the relevant points though: No acid attacks and no alive burials. Got it.

[Cid_B]

61. Just one thing caught my eye...

Bring men who are role models, like NFL players, or Rappers,

Yeah,there is that huge pool of rappers who portray an excellent example of how to interact with the women in their lives.:eyes:

Message is fine though, I just that that was funny.