Why should there even BE an invocation?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

Those liberals who are opposed to gay marriage yet support civil unions often justify their view by saying that marriage is a religious matter, and thus has no place in government.

Doesn't prayer fall in the same category?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. True. Isn't there a separation of church and state? And why is Christianity chosen?

Particularly a brand of Christianity that is hate-filled, and totally un-Jesus like.

[northernsoul]

2. Thank you for asking the most obvious question everyone appears to be overlooking!

Why are we introducing a sectarian religious element into a government proceeding in the first place?

[vadawg]

3. i guess its the choise of the dude being inaugerated

i guess PE Obama decides what happens at the event, though i kinda wish he would do it all online, then i wont have to stand outside in the cold for twenty hours or so :)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

6. I have many friends in service bands...

One of them, a violinist, ended up with a mild case of frostbite after one of the Clinton inaugurals.

Makes me glad I don't have one of those gigs...

Keep warm!

[scheming daemons]

4. In a perfect world, there would be NO invocation or benediction

But we atheists have come to understand we won't be in that world anytime soon.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

8. It makes me wonder though...

What will it take to get to that point?

I'm not an atheist, but I'm totally in favor of separating Church and State...as are many people like me.

[hamsterjill]

17. I am one of those

I am a Christian, myself, but I, also, fully support the separation of church and state. Some of my thinking stems from the fact that the many denominations within Christianity sometimes disagree on basic elements, so why risk any type of disagreement.

I can pray any time that I want silently without risking offense to any one else who may not share my own religious convictions. And I don't have a problem with that. I view it as a consideration toward others.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. Why? How Is No Invocation More Indicative Of A Perfect World? Does The Invocation Hurt You Somehow?

[scheming daemons]

13. In a perfect world, our government is COMPLETELY secular....

A guy can dream....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Our Government Is. Its Representatives Are Not. There's Nothing Wrong With That Either.

The invocation is a PERSONAL choice, not a governmental mandate. Obama is choosing to have the invocation and he has every right to do so. There also is no harm that can come from it and stating that its inclusion means the world isn't as perfect as it could be otherwise is just downright ridiculous.

[scheming daemons]

22. Let me rephrase... in *MY* perfect world, all of our representatives are rational...

...and don't cling to mythology and superstition.


I also recognize that I will never have my perfect world.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. A World Full Of Bigots Who Can't Tolerate Others Points Of View Is Not Perfect.

Fact is; you have no idea whether it is mythology or superstition whatsoever. Your views are no better nor more credible than those who are religious.

[roody]

43. It's coming---and soon!

I never thought we would be debating gay marriage in my lifetime.

[MineralMan]

5. In an ideal world,

such superstitious nonsense would have no place at an inauguration. I won't see that world in my lifetime, though.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

12. A lot of gay people felt the same way, not too long ago...

I can't help thinking that the monumental changes we've seen over the last 20 years are the result of much kicking and screaming (sometimes defined as nit-picking by oppositional factions).

Maybe those of us who truly want separation of Church and State simply need to be more vocal about it.

[krabigirl]

7. That was my first thought. WTF? This isn't a theocracy.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. An Invocation Has Nothing To Do With Whether Or Not We're A Theocracy.

There's nothing wrong with it in a democracy whatsoever; especially one such as ours in which we demand religious freedom. In this case, the president has the freedom to go through an invocation at his inauguration if he chooses.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

9. Because Most Politicians Are Still Religious, As Is Most Of The Country. It's An Innocent Practice.

If any given president didn't want an invocation, there wouldn't be one. But if a president holds a religious faith and wants it represented at his inauguration, and wants an invocation to take place, that's perfectly acceptable. But no one is forcing anybody to go through the invocation process.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

15. I understand that it's a tradition...

And I don't doubt the good intentions behind the practice. But tell me please, do you know of any inaugurations that did not include prayer? Haven't the last 28 years of politics been sufficiently marred by efforts to pander to religion...particularly Christianity...to warrant change?

I'm not suggesting that religious services couldn't be conducted or even televised for the benefit of those who wish to pray for the incoming administration. I just don't see why that can't be kept separate from the swearing-in.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. There's Not A Thing Wrong With It Being Part Of The Swearing In.

It is a personal decision made by Obama and having to actually witness it causes you no harm. Hell, change the channel for a little if it bothers you. But there should be no problem with anyone watching it and it is in no way a mandated act. It is a personal choice and there's not a thing wrong with any given president wanting to have an invocation as part of the inauguration, since many of them have deep faith. If someone was elected who wasn't religious and didn't want an invocation, one would not be given. But it is a personal choice and there's not a damn thing wrong with it being part of the inauguration. All the complaints otherwise are beyond petty and childish in my opinion.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

25. Is it really a personal decision?

Are we really to believe that Obama selected Warren to pray because he feels spiritually aligned with Warren's beliefs?

It seems pretty clear the motive was political; which would only serve to cheapen any purported spiritual element.

[onenote]

26. personal decisions can be political decisions

they're not mutually exclusive. indeed, for a politician, they're far from mutually exclusive.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. You're Talking About Something Completely Different Now.

The discussion is about the choice to have an invocation; not on who is doing it.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

47. You mentioned that it was a personal choice...

But it would seem to be a personal political choice rather than a personal religious choice. If the point of the invocation is to present a political statement; why even mess with religion?

[Bucky]

21. First I agree with Hitchen and now I'm agreeing up with OMC

I really need to go back and reexamine my principles. Something's wrong...

[Phred42]

14. THAT is the Question. Separation of Church & State? Let's get back to the basics

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

19. The Invocation Has Not A Thing To Do With Separation Of Church And State. Educate Yourself.

[jgraz]

33. Your capitalized subject line has once again conclusively proven your point.

:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. Your Complete Lack Of Substance Has Once Again Conclusively Shown You Have No Counter Argument.

:hi:

[jgraz]

36. Since you seem to have problems reading any posts but your own...

I'll repost this here:

Following is the invocation prayer offered by the Rev. Franklin Graham at the inauguration of President George W. Bush, January 20, 2001, in Washington, D.C.

“Let us pray.
Blessed are you, O Lord, our God. Yours, O God, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor; for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, O Lord is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all. Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things. In your hands are strength and power to exalt and to give strength to all.
As President Lincoln once said, “We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves before the offended power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.”
O Lord, as we come together on this historic and solemn occasion to inaugurate once again a president and vice president, teach us afresh that power, wisdom and salvation come only from your hand.
We pray, oh Lord, for President-elect George W. Bush and Vice President-elect Richard B. Cheney, to whom you have entrusted leadership of this nation at this moment in history. We pray that you will help them bring our country together, so that we may rise above partisan politics and seek the larger vision of your will for our nation.
Use them to bring reconciliation between the races and healing to political wounds, that we may truly become “one nation under God.”
Give our new president and all who advise him calmness in the face of storms, encouragement in the face of frustration, and humility in the face of success. Give them the wisdom to know and to do what is right and the courage to say no to all that is contrary to your statutes of holy law.
Lord, we pray for their families and especially their wives, Laura Bush and Lynne Cheney, that they may sense your presence and know your love.
Today we entrust to you President and Senator Clinton and Vice President and Mrs. Gore. Lead them as they journey through new doors of opportunity to serve others.
Now, O Lord, we dedicate this presidential inaugural ceremony to you. May this be the beginning of a new dawn for America as we humble ourselves before you and acknowledge you alone as our Lord, our Savior and our Redeemer.
We pray this in the name of the Father, and of the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”


Following is the benediction prayer offered by the Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell, pastor of Windsor Village United Methodist Church in Houston, Texas, at the inauguration of President George W. Bush, January 20, 2001, in Washington, D.C.

“Let us pray, please.
Almighty God, the supply and supplier of peace, prudent policy and nonpartisanship, we bless your holy and righteous name.
Thank you, oh God, for blessing us with forgiveness, with faith and with favor.
Forgive us for choosing pride over purpose, forgive us for choosing popularity over principles and forgive us for choosing materialism over morals.
Deliver us from these and all other evils and cast our sins into your sea of forgetfulness to be remembered no more.
And Lord not only do we thank you for our forgiveness, we thank you for faith—faith to believe that every child can learn and no child will be left behind and no youth will be left out.
Thank you for blessing us with the faith to believe that all of your leaders can sit down and reason with one another so that each American is blessed.
Thank you for blessing us with the faith to believe that the walls of inequity can be torn down and the gaps between the rich and the poor, the haves and the have-nots, the uneducated and the educated can and will be closed.
And Lord lastly we thank you for favor. We thank you for your divine favor. Let your favor be upon President Clinton and the outgoing administration.
May they go forth in spiritual grace and civic greatness.
And of course, Lord, let your divine favor be upon President George W. Bush and First Lady Laura Welch Bush and their family. We declare that no weapon formed against them shall prosper.
Let your divine favor be upon the Bush team and all Americans, with the rising of the sun and the going down of the same may we grow in our willingness and ability to bless you and bless one another.
We respectfully submit this humble prayer in the name that’s above all other names, Jesus the Christ.
Let all who agree say ‘amen.’”



Now tell me how that's not a violation of the establishment clause.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. It's Not A Violation Of The Establishment Clause In Any Way Shape Or Form.

You should really educate yourself as to the specifics of the establishment clause prior to thinking yourself an expert on it. :hi:

[jgraz]

38. Wow, you explained that so well

Do you understand the concept of debate or argument?

I don't know why I bother.

[Bucky]

41. Read mine instead

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4684529&mesg_id=4686155

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. You're Projecting.

You presented no such concept of debate nor argument. You asked a question. I answered it.

The invocation at the inauguration doesn't in any way violate either of the two concepts of the establishment clause.

[Phred42]

46. The Bottom line here is that there is no place for prayers in any Governmental gathering

[Bucky]

20. Yes, I think there should be.

It's okay to pray. Public prayers at political events should be nonsectarian and noncontroversial--and in my experience they just about always are. But inviting God's blessing on a sober and profound moment like the transfer of political power from one president to another, is a good idea. It does nothing toward establishing a religion nor toward imposing a religious belief on any citizen. It consecrates the moment in the public eye and it reminds a lot of Republicans, who, frankly, really do need the reminding, that God is watching them and their filthy little schemes.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

23. But what about those who believe in no god?

To make public prayers nonsectarian and noncontroversial is not difficult, certainly. But the fact that they're delivered by a representative of a particular church would seem to indicate a preference for that church by the current elected official.

[Bucky]

39. I am an agnotheist.

I do not know if I believe in the existence of people who don't believe in God.

Naw, seriously, I'm sympathetic to them, but I'd argue that (1) being present when someone else is praying is not a form of religious coersion, (2) the right of people to not be bothered by religious ceremonies at a public event (and I do think that right exists) is superceded by the right of people who do believe in God to have a well established and traditional consecration of that public event, provided that the prayer is non doctrinal and the event itself isn't geared around a religious establishment, and (3) preventing a prayer from taking place at that event when the people there want to pray would be an act of interfering "in the free exercise thereof" of religion--again provided that the prayer is non sectarian and not geared around a religious establishment.

Does that sound lawyerly enough to ya? I promise you I'm only a teacher.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

45. Great Post!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

50. It's the "non-doctrinal" part that's the problem...

God is part of the doctrine...

[Mass]

24. I asked myself the same question, but this seems to be a tradition,

and frankly, not one that I could see Obama break (both because of personal reasons and because, had he done that, it would have been the only thing people would have talked concerning the inauguration. Consider the curiosity of the media concerning the fact he did not go to church these last few weeks).

This said, the fact to choose somebody like Warren does not do any good when it comes to including everybody.

[gollygee]

27. True, and I agree, but he wouldn't get re-elected without one

Sadly.

He could choose a UU or UCC minister or something like that anyway. But no, he has to choose one of the right-wing psycho brand of religious people. There are many, many liberal religious leaders who would have been very happy to be chosen.

[treestar]

28. Good point. Some traditions develop and are hard to get rid of

even when unnecessary. This country's government should have no religious references, and that is a good thing, even for religious people - if government identifies with one religion now, it could change and identify with another later - Christians never seem able to see this - that they are safer if government does not identify with religion, even including their own.

[SidDithers]

31. There shouldn't be...

it should be a secular ceremony for a secular government.

Sid

[Gregorian]

32. If Obama is about unity, then he'll include us all.

Not just a prayer, but something for everyone. Or else, leave it out. Just get on with the inauguration.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

48. God bless us, every one...except for the atheists?

"In Jesus' name, if you believe in him. Amen."
:rofl:

PC prayer gets dicey...

[Gregorian]

52. I am a bit confused by things these days.

This forum has opened my eyes to other people on this planet. I am a very open minded person. However I have felt threatened here. I can be very irreverent. Yet I am a christian. My dad was a minister once upon a time. But far far from a fundy. My mom's family is fundie all the way, and it's disgusting. I'm confused because I know there is a truth. And nobody knows what it is. If we did, there'd be all kinds of room for righteousness.

Tolerance. Understanding.

My truth is that we are all the same. I believe there is something that transcends the human. I believe I know. But do I really know? No.

Let there be peace. And love. I would wish that for our future.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

53. I'm kind of in the same boat...

My spirituality/religious views are amorphous at the moment. Still, I feel a strong commitment to understanding my spiritual nature. Prayer and meditation are an important element of my day.

But that doesn't mean I want to mix politics and religion. Jesus may be a terrific spiritual leader; but I'm not sure I'd vote for him. In fact, I doubt if I would.

[jgraz]

34. Let's take a look, shall we?

Following is the invocation prayer offered by the Rev. Franklin Graham at the inauguration of President George W. Bush, January 20, 2001, in Washington, D.C.

“Let us pray.
Blessed are you, O Lord, our God. Yours, O God, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor; for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, O Lord is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all. Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things. In your hands are strength and power to exalt and to give strength to all.
As President Lincoln once said, “We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves before the offended power, to confess our national sins, and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.”
O Lord, as we come together on this historic and solemn occasion to inaugurate once again a president and vice president, teach us afresh that power, wisdom and salvation come only from your hand.
We pray, oh Lord, for President-elect George W. Bush and Vice President-elect Richard B. Cheney, to whom you have entrusted leadership of this nation at this moment in history. We pray that you will help them bring our country together, so that we may rise above partisan politics and seek the larger vision of your will for our nation.
Use them to bring reconciliation between the races and healing to political wounds, that we may truly become “one nation under God.”
Give our new president and all who advise him calmness in the face of storms, encouragement in the face of frustration, and humility in the face of success. Give them the wisdom to know and to do what is right and the courage to say no to all that is contrary to your statutes of holy law.
Lord, we pray for their families and especially their wives, Laura Bush and Lynne Cheney, that they may sense your presence and know your love.
Today we entrust to you President and Senator Clinton and Vice President and Mrs. Gore. Lead them as they journey through new doors of opportunity to serve others.
Now, O Lord, we dedicate this presidential inaugural ceremony to you. May this be the beginning of a new dawn for America as we humble ourselves before you and acknowledge you alone as our Lord, our Savior and our Redeemer.
We pray this in the name of the Father, and of the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”


Following is the benediction prayer offered by the Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell, pastor of Windsor Village United Methodist Church in Houston, Texas, at the inauguration of President George W. Bush, January 20, 2001, in Washington, D.C.

“Let us pray, please.
Almighty God, the supply and supplier of peace, prudent policy and nonpartisanship, we bless your holy and righteous name.
Thank you, oh God, for blessing us with forgiveness, with faith and with favor.
Forgive us for choosing pride over purpose, forgive us for choosing popularity over principles and forgive us for choosing materialism over morals.
Deliver us from these and all other evils and cast our sins into your sea of forgetfulness to be remembered no more.
And Lord not only do we thank you for our forgiveness, we thank you for faith—faith to believe that every child can learn and no child will be left behind and no youth will be left out.
Thank you for blessing us with the faith to believe that all of your leaders can sit down and reason with one another so that each American is blessed.
Thank you for blessing us with the faith to believe that the walls of inequity can be torn down and the gaps between the rich and the poor, the haves and the have-nots, the uneducated and the educated can and will be closed.
And Lord lastly we thank you for favor. We thank you for your divine favor. Let your favor be upon President Clinton and the outgoing administration.
May they go forth in spiritual grace and civic greatness.
And of course, Lord, let your divine favor be upon President George W. Bush and First Lady Laura Welch Bush and their family. We declare that no weapon formed against them shall prosper.
Let your divine favor be upon the Bush team and all Americans, with the rising of the sun and the going down of the same may we grow in our willingness and ability to bless you and bless one another.
We respectfully submit this humble prayer in the name that’s above all other names, Jesus the Christ.
Let all who agree say ‘amen.’”



Wow, what's not inclusive about that? :eyes:

[Bucky]

40. I'm giving him this one. But by criminy that 2013 invocation better be Wiccan!

Assuming the Mayans got it wrong and the world isn't consumed by fire in December 2012.

That would suck

[roody]

42. Because so many people want to believe the fantasy that there is a

supernatural being up there who would actually intervene because someone asked him to! This despite the fact that there is no empirical evidence to support their fantasy. This includes Obama.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

49. As someone who shuns empirical evidence and clings to possibility...

I still don't see why praying couldn't be done in a church before the inauguration.

[roody]

55. Reminds me of the Pharisees.

[Qanisqineq]

51. that was my thought also

separation of church and state. keep the bible and the prayer out of the inauguration.

[deaniac21]

54. You are an awesome thinker.

[1]

56. because...

there always has been and there probably always will be one. tradition.

obama wants one.

that's good enough for me...