Puppy Mills: What they are, why they're a problem and how to spot one

[LeftyMom]

Judging by the threads on the Biden puppy and why he made a pretty bad decision, there's some confusion, at best, with quite a few people about puppy mills, why adoption is the humane choice, etc. So here's a little Q&A, and if you have any questions please ask.

What the hell is a puppy mill anyhow?
A puppy mill is a commercial breeding operation where more dogs are being bred than can be reliably cared for and socialized. Dogs may be caged or chained, are generally housed in outbuildings or trailers, but may be kept outside on chains in temperate areas, generally receive inadequate vet care, and are generally bred far beyond what is healthy for the mother. Injuries and behavioral issues due to inadequate care and low socialization are common. Typically puppy millers breed females repeatedly until they suffer health problems, then either kill them, dump them at shelters or rescues, or try to sell them with falsified medical histories. To the puppy miller, a puppy is a product, not a friend, and a bitch is the machinery for creating that product, not a family member.

Here are typical pictures from puppy mills throughout the US. http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/kennel-examples.html

How are puppy mill dogs sold? How do I know if the dog I'm looking at comes from a mill?

Any dog in a pet or puppy store came from a mill, unless it's a store that hosts rescue groups, such as PetSmart. If you're dealing with a breeder directly or via the internet (and you really should look to adopt, as I'll explain) presence of more than one breed of dog, dogs being kept primarily or exclusively outside or in buildings, or dogs in cages are all very bad signs, as would be excessive numbers of dogs on the property, or multiple litters at one time. Obviously unsanitary or excessively spartan conditions would also be a major warning signs.

But papered dogs should be okay, right?
No. AKC standards, in particular, are very lax, so millers have no problem papering their puppies, even when they come from very unhealthy stock or questionable lineages. Fraud is so rampant in dog breeding, you really can't assume that papers tell you any more about your dog's history or background than your eyes and a good vet can.

Isn't this sort of thing illegal?
Unfortunately some states regulate dog breeding as agriculture, and the same abusive practices visited on food animals are legal for dogs that wind up in family homes. States with particular problems with widespread puppy milling include Pennsylvania, Ohio and Missouri, but puppy mills exist in various states of legality throughout the US.

But what about the dogs themselves?
Unfortunately, puppy mill dogs tend to have significant health and behavioral issues. They really should go to experienced rescuers prior to placement so that they can be screened for common problems like skeletal issues, respiratory diseases and behavioral problems prior to placement, so please don't think that you're doing a puppy mill dog a favor by taking him home. If you find a mill in your search for a dog, please contact your local humane law organization or an animal rescue group so they can shut the mill down, otherwise the breeder will crank out still more pups to replace the one you bought, and nothing will change.

Okay, so puppy mills are a big problem. What can I do?
People don't run puppy mills for the fun of it. They run them because they're greedy, and breeding large numbers of dogs is easy money, since the bitches do the actual work. All you have to do to stop puppy mills is adopt instead, because that takes the profit motive out of it.

But I'm a little nervous about adopting a dog. Who knows where they came from?
Their rescuer does, and wants to find their "forever" home, not an imperfect fit in a home that doesn't last. In fact, because your rescuer wants the best for the dog, and has no profit motive for placement, you'll likely get much more complete and accurate information about the little guy's health, temperament, history and ideal placement situation than you would with a breeder. Breeders are salespeople, rescuers are more like matchmakers. So all you need to do is look for a great rescue dog, and luckily for you, that's easier than ever. Just click on over to http://www.petfinder.com/ and you can search for any kind of dog under the sun, and find a loving companion waiting for you in a foster home, rescue organization or shelter.

Finally, if you have any questions about animal issues, you're always welcome to PM me or flvegan.

[Richard Steele]

1. Good info that I suppose lots of folks don't know. THX for posting it. K&R

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. Thanks for posting this. Great Info. K & R

so sad.

[flvegan]

3. How to spot one? They have an APHIS license.

Sad thing that. Our government once again not giving a shit.

[Joe the Liberal]

4. What if you cant find the breed you're looking for?

Lets say you want a certain breed of dog but no shelter or rescue organization has the breed you are interested in but there is a puppy mill that does? What do you do then? Buy the puppy from the puppy mill? What if you want a puppy and not a full grown dog? What if you want a purebred?

[LeftyMom]

6. That's what breed rescues are for.

There's one dedicated to just about any obscure strain of canid kind. Trust me, you might need to do a little more looking, but there's an adoptable dog waiting for you. Pups too.

[flvegan]

7. You wait.

I wouldn't pay $10k for a shitty fake Rolex on eBay either.

[silverojo]

12. I want to adopt a shelter cat myself, but...

There is a need and a purpose for breeders. Without them, breeds would eventually intermix to the point where there would be no such thing as a purebred animal.

And again--as adamant as I am about getting a shelter animal--these animals are more likely to have behavioral issues which don't reveal themselves until after they're adopted. And trust me...shelters aren't always honest about their animals. Many an episode of "It's Me Or The Dog" and "Dog Whisperer" have resulted from shelter animals with severe behavioral problems.

I'm not discouraging adoption, just saying that (as with anything else), you need to be cautious.

[LeftyMom]

14. Your best bet then is probably a rescue organization.

Shelters, since they generally only have animals for a week or so (unfortunately after that most kill them due to overcrowding) may not have much information about the animals they have available. Temperament testing and vet exams can turn up most problems, but they're not perfect.

You can get a more complete picture from a rescue, since the animal will generally have been in care with the rescuer or a foster family for some time, and most issues will have already manifested themselves.

And as I said, rescuers have an incentive to make sure the adoption is permanent, since most not only will take but insist on taking the animal back if for some reason you choose not to keep them. I do cat rescue myself, and I'm very careful about placements because I would rather keep a cat than place them and have them come back to me later because the placement failed.

[MiniMe]

51. There is a big difference between responsible breeders and puppy millers

Responsible breeders are in it to improve the breed and their line. They care about their dogs. They try to improve their line through a good match between 2 dogs that complement each other, and they check the health clearances. You are right, there is a place for them. I assume the same is true of reponsible cat breeders too.

I have a friend that had a champion dog, and she bred it to another champion. One of the pups had a genetic fault, and she spayed her female after that because she didn't want to further the chances of that disorder being passed on. That is a responsible breeder. A puppy miller would have continued breeding that dog and taken any with genetic problems and put it down because they could make money on the rest of them. Even between 2 champions, there will always be pet quality pups, but you pay a lot of money even for them. Plus, the pups are well vetted, as is the mother, and well taken care of.

[vegleftie]

150. no difference: a breeder is a breeder is a breeder

And "improving the line" often results in severe medical problems from inbreeding. If "responsible" breeders really cared about dogs, they'd make sure the millions of homeless healthy dogs who end up in shelters and are euthanized each year, including many (25%) purebreds found homes first.

[otherlander]

111. "There is a need and a purpose for breeders.

There is a need and a purpose for breeders. Without them, breeds would eventually intermix to the point where there would be no such thing as a purebred animal."

So fucking what? Where do people get the idea that being of the species Homo Sapien gives them the right to manipulate and inbreed other species to create traits that they find aesthetically pleasing but have no actual benefit for the other animal involved?

[tbyg52]

116. Really.

And try transferring that statement to human beings! I was so happy when Obama referred to himself as a "mutt." Unless it is bred for a specific *working* purpose, a dog is a dog is a dog.

[connecticut yankee]

115. I adopted our cat

from the local Humane Society.

She's a British blue and the most adorable, affectionate cat you could ever want.

She's never had an unhealthy day in her life.

She's ten years old, and still as playful as a kitten.

And we love her very much.

[Richard Steele]

27. Then you take a good long look at yourself and ask why "breed" matters to you.

That's what.

[RobinA]

67. Because I Want

a dog with certain charactistics and not others? I don't want a border collie in the city, I want a dog that doesn't shed, I don't want long hair all over the house, yappy dogs drive me nuts, I want something to make intruders think twice, I need a calm dog, I want an active dog, I live on a farm and don't want something with long white hair, I want a lap dog, I don't want a lap dog, I want to use a dog for hunting, I want a dog who is going to like being outside, I want a dog who won't mind rarely going outside, I don't want a dog that needs a whole lot of exercise, I have another dog and I want a dog who will get along, I have young children, I think labs are dumb, I want a lab because all the labs I know are laid back, I don't have room for a big dog..... Why WOULDN'T breed matter. If it doesn't, the dog owner isn't being very responsible.

[LeftyMom]

73. Best bet in that case is do adopt an older dog with a known temperament.

Even purebred dogs can have behaviors that are absolutely atypical for the breed, so breed alone is not a good predictor of behavior. For example, a friend of mine has a Jack Russel Terrier, and while they're famously active, his dog has the sort of lazy, lap-cat personality that's not expected of the breed at all.

With an older dog who has sent some time in foster, the personality of the dog can be matched to the needs of the adopter with greater reliability.

Further, there are no shortage of dogs with known ancestry available for adoption, so it's a bit silly to assume that any adopted dog is a mystery.

[Richard Steele]

153. None of the criteria you mention are affected in any way by PAPERWORK.

A dog lover who is experienced with dogs can determine
half of those things at a glance, and the other half
by spending five minutes with any given dog.

The notion that "papers" are some guarantee that a dog
will be what you want is sheer codswolloping nutfluffery.
It's complete and total bullshit, and pretentious bullshit at that.

People who demand "PAPERS" aren't looking for certain characteristics;
they just think that "PAPERS" might impress somebody somewhere, sometime.
The actual characteristics of the dog itself are SECONDARY to them.

The entire "purebred breed" nonsense is naught but elitist douchebaggery,
invented, perpetrated and perpetuated by elitist douchebags.

And that's a FACT.

[Vanje]

74. because.......

....a labrador-pitbull-airdale-husky cross just might not be the best choice to herd sheep?

[LostinVA]

81. Wouldn't THAT be a sight

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

43. Go to a breed rescue

Or at least find a LEGITMATE breeder.

There is NO EXCUSE EVER for buying a puppy mill dog.

[RobinA]

78. Well, Maybe I Think

puppy mill puppies deserve a good home, too. Those breed rescue dogs are already in the hands of someone who cares. Poor little puppy mill dogs didn't ask to be born in a politically incorrect way, and one might like the chance to run around my farm and have a good life. Dogs prone to hip dysplasia deserve a life too. And I am only being half sarcastic. Why should it matter if a dog as hip dysplasia? In fact, buy a purebred, because they are known to have physical problems. How heartless to want a perfect crossbreed who is strong and vigorous. Only elitists want perfect dogs. I'll take a pure bred, standard poodle who has a decent liklihood of going blind. I will care for him in his imperfectness.

It cuts many ways.

[LostinVA]

83. Child prostitutes need to make money, too -- they didn't ask to be whored out

Why give money to an adult prostitute when you acn help out a minor one? There really is no difference from what you wrote. Paying for it continues the abuse. If there's no market for it, it'll go away. Rationalizing it doesn't make it right. It's mindblowing to me that you wrote that. :wtf:

[superduperfarleft]

86. Trust me, that's not clever, that's just asinine. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

112. I never said they don't deserve homes

The puppy mill should be shut down, the owners tossed in jail, then the dogs should go into rescue and be adopted.

I don't know about you, but I personally, am not down with giving money to sociopathic criminals.

[Vanje]

117. Practical reasons to avoid pups from Puppy mills

Puppy mill dogs come with a few practical problems which may stand in the way of their being the ideal family companion.

They are notoriously hard to housebreak.

Puppies that spend their formative weeks with no where to crap but their bed, dont learn that shitting in your bed leads to unpleasantness.

Most mill pups havnt been socialized. They dont know how to be friends with people of various shapes and sizes. Many will grow up with shyness, insecurities, or fear-based aggression.

[Greyhound]

71. You're simply not looking very hard.

Unless you live in a hut above the arctic circle, there are alternatives.

Try again.

[MissB]

93. Ask the breed rescue group for the name of a reputable breeder.

We did that the first time around with our first Aussie. We wanted a puppy, and we wanted an Aussie.

For our second (and last, I'll *never* buy a purebred dog again) Aussie, we went the rescue route. She's loyal as can be, if not a wee bit more than completely neurotic. But a sweetheart who would die for any of us in our little family, and despite all of her drawbacks, we've adopted her heart and soul for the rest of her life. We've had her for nearly 11 years now.

Personally, I'd wait until I found a rescue dog, or go with a pound dog. But I don't know what kind of dog you're looking for (haven't read the rest of your sub-thread).

[hamsterjill]

156. Absolutely what LeftyMom says

And with the internet these days, most breed rescues are connected with many other rescuers across the country. If your local rescuers don't have what you want, I'll bet they can find it somewhere.

And there do exist networks for transporting dogs and cats across the country to new homes, too.

But, if you want the bestest unconditional love in the whole wide world, save a life by going to your local shelter or rescues and take the pet home whose face you can't get seem to get out of your mind.

[ColbertWatcher]

5. We're watching "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" on ABC Family and ...

... they just had a commercial for something called "dontbuypuppies.com" and they are encouraging people not to buy puppies for Christmas. But, if they are going to give a pet as a gift, to get one from the pound!

[LeftyMom]

8. Absolutely.

An animal is not a gift and should never be a surprise. If you want to adopt an animal for your family, do it together, make sure you're all compatible first, and that everybody understands and has realistic ideas about behavioral expectations. Especially if there are kids involved.

Unfortunately gifted animals (dogs, cats, rabbits, chicks, etc) tend to get dumped on shelters as soon as parents realize that Little Timmy doesn't want to clean up poo, or the animal grows up a bit and isn't quite so cute.

It's important for parents to realize any animal brought into the home is ultimately their responsibility, and will be for the life of that animal.

[ColbertWatcher]

30. You should make a youtube video! n/t

[RobinA]

80. Gifted Animals?

We have a gifted dog. It was a stray, and the smartest damn dog I have ever had. Our Great Dane, however....let's just say - not gifted.

[yewberry]

147. Read that again.

In this context gifted animals = animals that are given as gifts.

Not "gifted" as in "with unusual intelligence."

[FloridaJudy]

9. My local PetCo

Also sponsors "adoption days" from local shelters. Damned near broke my heart this Sunday when I stopped by to pick a couple of bags of pet food. Unfortunately, with the economy in the shape it's in, I expect more and more critters to become homeless. My old AA sponsor used to help out on "adoption days", but she had to quit: knowing the ones still left after the weekend were headed for euthanasia was eating her up.

I would never "buy" a puppy. Breeding animals for profit is a sin in my book.

[LeftyMom]

10. Some local stores and small chains host adoption events too.

In order to encourage that, I suggest that people shop for their companions at those stores, and avoid those that sell dogs and cats. Unfortunately the chains still sell small animals, which is another problem for another thread.

[flvegan]

11. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

What a timely, brilliant thread.

[LeftyMom]

13. Remind me to send your dogs some treats.

I've had them in the freezer and I keep forgetting to put them in the box when I send you stuff.

[Vektor]

15. Thank you for the info on this very sad subject. Are there cat mills too?

Because one does see kittens in pet stores also, often sold as purebred Persian, Siamese, etc...

I would imagine they came from similar conditions?

[LeftyMom]

17. Cat breeders tend to have similar problems, but the problem is smaller in scope.

They tend to be less common, simply because there's much less demand for purebred cats, and healthy moggies can generally be found for the asking, since they breed, well, like cats.

Unfortunately purebred cats tend to have even more health problems than the already substantial list of maladies that afflict purebred dogs, poor dears.

[Vektor]

18. Thanks...

for the insight on this disturbing topic that needs to be brought to the public's attention, even if it IS hard to think about.

[Missy Vixen]

26. Our cats don't

>Unfortunately purebred cats tend to have even more health problems than the already substantial list of maladies that afflict purebred dogs

We have two purebred Maine Coons that came from a breeder who has 1-2 litters per year. The kittens are spoken for before they're even born, and they go primarily to show homes. Our cats do not have health problems. At all.

Demonizing all breeders with the "puppy/cat mill" moniker is nothing but inflammatory.

Julie

[LeftyMom]

28. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Nothing said in this thread has suggested that all breeders operate mills. This is simply not the case, as mills operate on a much larger scale than they typical backyard breeder or hobbyist.

However, that does not change two facts, first that "purebred" animals are intentionally inbred for conformity to breed standards, which can have substantial negative health effects, and second that animals of mixed ancestry derive significant health benefits from what is known as hybrid vigor, essentially a fancy term for new genes that help to drown out dangerous recessives.

In any case, it's all a matter of "The Cold Equations" if you know the story. In this case, the problem is that there are only so many homes and they can only house so many animals, and that the number of animals in need of those home exceeds that number. For every purpose-bred animal created to fill one of those homes, one other animal dies, either homeless on the street, or at the end of a needle in an overcrowded shelter. People who love animals adopt.

[Missy Vixen]

33. The fact still remains that our cats do not have health issues

Some of those reading the thread might also be interested to note that those in the cat fancy move heaven and earth to prevent health issues in breeding cats as well. The "standard" is much less important than healthy, loving, sociable cats who are wonderful pets in and out of the show ring.

Our boys were neutered as soon as they were old enough.

I'd also like to add that Maine Coon breeders especially encourage what's called "Heidi Ho" cats in their purebreds' pedigrees. Since Maine Coons are a naturally occurring breed, there's at least one "Heidi Ho" on both sides.

Our vet might be surprised to hear your insistence that we "don't love animals". He's commented the exact opposite on several occasions now.

Julie

[LeftyMom]

39. Animals are a responsibility, not a hobby.

Honestly, I don't think there's any communicating with somebody whose head is so full of nonsense about show rings (letting a cat get poked at by a stranger is nuts) and "cat fancy".

However, I feel responsible to point out that there are significant health problems associated with every breed of purebred cats, and with the inbreeding associated with breeding to conformity. While I'm delighted that your cats have so far escaped these problems, the fact remains that "purebred" :eyes: cats are not as healthy as their moggie cousins.

[Missy Vixen]

56. Thanks, LeftyMom

>I don't think there's any communicating with somebody whose head is so full of nonsense about show rings

I can only return the compliment.

Thanks for letting me know that anyone who voices a different opinion than the one you have is quickly cut off.

Julie

[TwilightGardener]

158. Please. What sanctimonious crap. There's nothing wrong with

the responsible breeding and showing of either cats or dogs. As long as the animals are cared for and loved, who the fuck are you to judge?

[superduperfarleft]

44. You're disgusting.

These are sentient creatures, not a fucking stamp collection.

I'm sure your two cats are wonderful. Too bad they can't go to a home where they're not treated as fucking matching throw pillows for the expensive new couch, or to give you bragging rights in your circle of old-lady cat fanciers.

[Missy Vixen]

54. And what a charmer you are, too

Our cats are the furthest from "fucking matching throw pillows". We love them.

It's unfortunate that you have so little tolerance for anyone who doesn't choose to make the same life decisions you do. Perhaps you might want to rethink your screen name as a result.

Julie

[superduperfarleft]

61. Whatever, princess.

My "life decisions" don't indirectly contribute the the horrible problem of domesticated animal overpopulation, so I'm perfectly fine with having little tolerance for those who do.

Karma would be to have breeders and those who patronize them come back as a shelter cat or dog in their next life.

[Missy Vixen]

63. Karma would actually be

your being confronted with the misery I'm sure you cause everyone around you IRL.

Congratulations on your smug and self-satisfied world view. In the meantime, welcome to my ignore file.

Julie

[superduperfarleft]

64. And enjoy your stamp collection. n/t

[Johnny Noshoes]

120. Superduper...

Well this person just made mine as well.

[RobinA]

68. From My Observation

the majority of shelter animals are not purebreeds, but mixed breeds, indicating that your juxtaposition of breeders and rescue animals is a bit....extreme.

[superduperfarleft]

76. And 2 plus 2 equals 4, therefore here's a bunny with a pancake on his head. n/t

[LeftyMom]

79. It's estimated that about a quarter of the dogs in shelters are purebreds.

Since US shelters euthanize roughly 4 million dogs a year, that's roughly a million purebred animals who died because of overpopulation.

[Vanje]

77. Whatever floats your boat

I dont think your writing has persuaded anybody elses "life decisions" to change.
Zealots suck at converting.
But preaching at your choir can be hours of fun.

[superduperfarleft]

82. Did it PM you or are you just stopping by?

Looks to me like the yuppie cat fancy queen has ended our conversation, so why are you so interested in starting another one?

[Vanje]

88. I know. You're just saving all your charm for later.

You wouldnt want to use up such a rare commodity. Clearly, you dont have much to spare.

[LostinVA]

94. Sheeptramp is someone who knows the value of dogs

And, I'm not talking about money.

[superduperfarleft]

98. Hard to reconcile that with the fact that

he's more upset about me hurting the delicate widdle feelings of a yuppie breeder apologist than with the fact that millions of animals starve in the streets or are euthanised every year in shelters, but WTFever. Anyone else on her mailing list?

[LostinVA]

95. WTF are you talking about -- the poster didn't say that at all

[superduperfarleft]

97. She's perfectly able to take me off ignore and continue defending herself.

Or at least, I'm assuming she's able.

[gaspee]

40. Exactly

This topic always gets my dander up because while puppy mills are a problem, there are quite a few good, responsible hobby breeders out there. And guess what? We tend to deal with the problems of puppy millers more than the judgmental, uninformed posters here at DU do. Who do they think runs most of the breed specific rescue organizations? Small, responsible hobby breeders, that's who.

This sanctimonious bullshit is very tiring over and over again here on DU.

Our rescue just got 20 puppy mill dogs dumped on us. So while everyone here sits at their desks and posts about evil breeders, I and others in our rescue will raise the funds to fix puppy knees, bring over bred bitches back to health, socialize old stud dogs and find forever homes to these animals.

Oh, and I have a litter of pups due in January. Guess I'm evil.

[superduperfarleft]

45. Continuing to breed domesticated animals

while millions sit dying on the streets and in shelters is irresponsible, regardless of your attempts to differentiate yourself from the puppy-millers. Puppy mills are nothing more than the resulting slippery slope of so-called "responsible" breeders.

[mrs_p]

48. while i admire your passion

i can't agree. there really is a difference between reputable breeders and puppy mills. and i think it is wrong to blame people who get a purebred for the dying animals in the street/shelter. do you also blame human parents for all the starving and dying children out there who weren't adopted because they decided to have their own?? put responsibility where it is due - on the people who didn't spay and neuter or who got a pet before they knew they were unable to care for it.

[vegleftie]

152. problem w/people having their own children instead of adopting

I for one believe the two issues, human overpopulation and animal population, are similar, and, just as animals should be spayed and neutered and every potential pet guardian encouraged to adopt from shelters and rescue groups, humans should be fully and freely educated in birth control and given free access to birth control modalities, sterilization and abortion, as well as being encouraged to adopt, foster or sponsor children who need homes.

[mrs_p]

154. i'm sure nearly everyone on this board

would agree with your statement - i do. however, do you BLAME people who have their own children for the suffering of the children they don't adopt?

edit: welcome to DU!

[gaspee]

70. Whatever

You are sadly misinformed. But the agenda of the radical animal rights activists is actually to end all pet companionship and free companion animals from their "bonds." I've heard it all before.

I am not responsible for the thousands of stray dogs. Each community is responsible for the behavior of their own members.

In my area of the country, we don't have enough "unwanted" animals to cover the demand. We import puppies from areas of the country (mostly the south and midwest) who have tons of unwanted animals.

You are dead wrong on this issue.

[superduperfarleft]

75. "we don't have enough "unwanted" animals to cover the demand"

This may be news to you and others who traffic in dogs and cats, but they are sentient, conscious, living beings, not products to be shipped around because a certain breed is hot this year with a certain subset of yuppie housewives, like they're a fucking dress or handbag or something. But like I said in another thread, good thing there's tons and tons of animal rescue people waiting around to clean up the mess that you and you ilk keep creating.

And don't lecture me about "radical animal rights activists" or what they supposedly believe, because I'd bet every dime to my name that you don't have the first fucking clue what you're talking about. So you've read up on animal rights theory, huh? Can you name some books or authors for me? Which particular theory are you most fond of, and why? What specific criticisms can you offer towards others? Maybe we could have a chat about what you know on this subject. I'll be here, waiting patiently.

[LostinVA]

99. You didn't even read what Gaspee wrote -- so calm the fuck down

Your personal attacks on this thread are OUT OF LINE.

Gaspee said -- as they said in another thread -- that the shelters and rescues in their area of the country are UNDERfilled. Which is wonderful. Because of this, and because so many people there want to adopt animals, shelters and rescues in other areas of the country send them dogs and cats TO ADOPT. Got it?

I have a rescue kitty and two rescue Border Collies. Both of the BCs are from WORKING LINE BREEDERS, which are absolutely necessary for certain breeds (BCs, GSDs, Heelers, etc.).

Gaspee is also right about the "Radicals" -- he mentioned this in another post, and I agree 100% with him. He's referring to some of the PETA extremists who don't believe in pet ownership at all. I also think it's nuts.

You need to take some lessons from LeftyMom, Flvegan, and Haruka on how to discuss this subject with posters.

[superduperfarleft]

101. Sure thing, mom.

And the fact that you think PETA is radical says quite a bit about your ignorance on the issue. There's a very reasonable explanation to the oft-misinterpreted PETA-wants-to-break-down-your-door-and-steal-your-pets crap, but most people are more interested in defending their "right" to make a livelihood off the backs of animals than understanding it. And I've seen what happens to discussions about our obligation to animals here on DU. So pardon me if I doubt either one of you know what you're talking about.

And I know you one of those that think you're big shit around here, but the Cool Kids of DU clique doesn't impress me a bit. If the mods tell me to shut up, I will immediately, but until then, go police someone who gives a damn.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

125. She's nobody's mom, pookie

Although, she is a cougar.

BTW, LostinVA knows what she's talking about, but I doubt you do, and I'm a member of fucking PETA, btw.

[superduperfarleft]

126. I'm sure Ingrid appreciates you paying her rent.

And the fact that you, a PETA member, are defending breeders in this thread only confirms my opinion that PETA is an absolute joke of an organization, and sully the idea of animal rights everytime they open their mouths.

edit: Your wife's buddy is hilarious. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4659931&mesg_id=4662860

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

129. Not as much of a joke as you

You do realize that you're attacking an ally with LostinVA and me, right?

BTW, I thought sheeptramp's post was funny, just because it pissed you off.

[superduperfarleft]

130. I know you are but what am I.

And someone who defends breeders as furiously as you have is no ally of mine. Have an egg, it'll chill you out.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

136. I think your mom wants her computer back

You're getting Cheeto stains on it.

Come back when you can be rational, and perhaps we can discuss things.

[superduperfarleft]

140. .

Nevermind.

[gaspee]

109. Bullshit

You know jack shit about me. I probably do more for rescue than you ever will. I'm talking about shelter dogs, you jackass, not designer dogs. And if you have kids, I betcha my dogs live better than your kids.

Clueless wankers like you should try to educate themselves instead of spouting off.

[suzie]

119. You're way off base.

As others have stated, there are many legitimate, respectable breeders involved in animal rescue.

I've owned dogs all my life and have had two 'purebreds'. One was from a backyard breeder and was a wonderful golden retriever with few behavioral or health problems. The family that bred him had two dogs with decent temperament who were average family pets. He probably had some hip dysplasia, but lived until age 10 with no serious problems.

The golden that we currently own was adopted from a rescue program and was probably a puppy mill dog. He's lovable and sweet and probably the most neurotic creature that the Almighty ever gave breath to, with serious separation anxiety, humongous fear of thunderstorms, and even greater fear of fireworks. He was also probably abused a good deal.

I'd gone through quite a few obedience classes with a previous border collie mix adopted as a stray in the neighborhood. And have been able to work with this dog, so that he's become not just reasonable, but fun to have around.

But, it has helped a lot to know what parts of his behavior are breed specific--just what goldens do--and what parts are something that he adopted out of whatever neglectful, abusive homes he lived in.

Many of my friends also had a purebred dog that they bought from a breeder at some point, and when those dogs died, they adopted rescue dogs. And they often adopt mixed breed dogs as well, just a I recently have done. Seems to me like a few purebred dogs result in a whole bunch of other dogs being rescued.

And I'd imagine a lot of that goes back to having raised a puppy with good temperament and good early socialization.

[suzie]

145. You're way off base.

Sorry, I was trying to edit the final paragraph and ended up with two replies. It should read:

And I'd imagine a lot of that goes back to having raised a puppy with good temperament and good early socialization. Which is what the legitimate breeders try to develop. I’m not defending the backyard breeders, but the serious types who do so much animal rescue work deserve our respect.

[LostinVA]

91. Some breeds SHOULD be bred for the betterment of the breed

Border Collies, Heelers, Kelpies, etc. And, I don't mean AKC BCs, etc. I mean working lines. Also, GSDs and other dogs used in law enforcement. Our two Border Collies are from working lines. Some BC lines go back hindred of years, and are full of NOTHING but excellent dogs, because "bad" dogs weren't -- and aren't -- bred. Boredr Collies ahve their "hyper" rep because of some bad lines started by greedy people. BCs do and should have an "off switch." Sheeptramp will agree with me on this, I bet.

[Vanje]

96. Agreed

but that "hyper" problem , in an otherwise good BC, can be tempered by giving the dog some useful work.

[LostinVA]

100. I also agree with that -- it worked with Mick when he was a puppy

Even something as simple as Haruka having "school" with him every night (ie herding commands) helped. He would love to be on sheep every day. I wish we could afford the land we would need. He has been such a better behaved lad since we got Beag in October. They herd each other -- all the time.

What appalls me is how some Flyball "lines" are TRYING to amke the dogs more hyper -- all the time!!!!!

[superduperfarleft]

102. You're breeding them for your needs not for the dog's.

So BS on the "betterment of the breed" thing.

[LostinVA]

104. Which shows you know nothing about the dogs in question

You really are being a total jerk to people on this thread, including some major animal rights people. Grow up.

You know what? You aren't "superduper" anything but rude, and obviously know little about dogs. On to Ignore with you.

[superduperfarleft]

105. Animal "rights." Uh-huh. n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

123. Well, our dogs are RESCUES, and we don't breed, so I don't know WTF you're talking about?

There is such a thing of breeding for the betterment of the breed. Mick comes from a line of top sheepdogs. He has great instinct and is very healthy. Border Collies from working lines are a very healthy breed.

I herd sheep with mine for fun, because the dog fucking loves it. It's what he was bred to do and he knows it. You should see how excited he gets when he hears the word "sheep" or his trainer's name. He gets excited just seeing sheep on TV. When he jumps out of the car at the farm, he is at his happiest point all week. Once he gets on that field, he's literally trembling with excitement waiting to be sent out to get the sheep.

All of the trainer's dogs are like that, too. They love doing what they were bred to do.

[superduperfarleft]

127. "They love doing what they were bred to do."

You're so noble.... :eyes:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

128. Not noble, just right

Come watch my dog on the sheep, and tell me he's not having fun.

[superduperfarleft]

131. You're right, I've now changed my mind on fox hunting. Thanks!

After all, the dogs are having fun, ethics be damned!

[Vanje]

133. Fox hunting

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

135. And, down the rabbit hole we go, Alice

You are sooo cute.

[superduperfarleft]

137. Well, if that's how this works, I could've saved a lot of time.

You: Breeders are great! I'm an authority because I give PETA money every month!

Me: OMG dat's so stupid. :bunny picture:

/thread

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

138. That doesn't even make any sense

Find me the post where I said breeders are great, m'kay?

[superduperfarleft]

139. You've been all over this thread saying that there's a "place" for so-called "responsible" breeders

And that breeders do it "for the good of the breed."

Funny, no mention of the welfare of the individual animal when we're talking about the "good of the breed." I could care less about lines or any of that crap, my concern is with the individual animals who are harmed by an attitude that they are nothing more than a means to human ends, whether that be some weird infatuation with physical characteristics or love of a hobby (as if bringing sentient creatures into existence is the equivalent of a stamp collection).

Maybe you need to reevaluate your understanding of big-AR Animal Rights if you think that includes the right to be used as nothing more than a puppy-making machine so that people can have pretty dogs.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

141. If you think I agree with breeding so people can have "pretty dogs," you have got to be shitting me

:rofl:

[superduperfarleft]

142. Like I said, let me know if this is how it's going to go and I'll go do something else.

Or you can just use this handy template to cut and paste to all of my replies: OMG DAT'S ST00PID PETA RULEZ!!!!111

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

143. OMG DAT'S ST00PID PETA RULEZ!!!!111

[superduperfarleft]

144. Fine. Peace out.

Go earn some street team points for me. :eyes:

[vegleftie]

151. Remember Hitler and the Aryan race?

That's what all this breeding of dogs and cats for "superior" traits reminds me of, and it's generally accepted because they're "only" animals, not humans.

[Vanje]

157. DING DING DING!

Finally a winner!

Hitler evoked!

Congratulations. Our roving floor manager will be with you soon to award you a PRIZE !

[TwilightGardener]

159. Um...they are domesticated animals. Man has been domesticating animals

of all types, for various purposes, since time began. If you wanted to herd sheep (another species we've domesticated), you bred dogs with a herding instinct, etc. I guess we shouldn't own dogs at all, I guess they should all have been left as wolves. How stupid.

[vegleftie]

149. hobby breeders are irresponsible too

You're kidding, of course! Breeding animals as a "hobby" is not responsible by definition. They're living,breathing animals, for chrissake, not doilies!

[mrs_p]

46. maine coons also

generally have a set of health concerns. there is no way so much interbreeding can go on without genetic consequences - it's science. heart disease and arthritis are two problems that come to mind for MCs and an owner should be aware of them. MCs are my favorite cat breed and i myself have had two. even if you buy directly from a great breeder, you can't deny that MCs are more prone to certain conditions.

[Lorien]

92. My purebred cats came from the same sort of breeders

I had set out to get a rescue kitty as a companion for my aging rescue Miro, but none of the cats from the many shelters represented at a regional cat show felt right. I little "pet quality" Maine Coon who was on sale did, though. He kept pawing at me over and over when I was waiting for the director of one of the rescue groups to come back from lunch. It turned out that Oberon WAS the ideal friend for my sad Miro. Probably saved his life, too, since Miro had stopped eating for two weeks after his buddy Peewee died (a rescued half Turkish Angora). Oberon's breeder only had one male and two females, and just two litters per year. Puck's breeder only had one female and one male-and one litter every other year (her mom is now retired). I searched like mad to find a real Turkish Angora on petfinder, but none existed five years ago. The species is on the "threatened" list anyway and few breeders exist. There are at least a dozen threatened or endangered cat breeds. Why should they be saved? Because nearly all are natural breeds with unique biological traits. The Turkish Angora has very different behavioral traits than other cats and an exceptionally high intelligence, the Siberian Forest cat is hypoallergenic and can be owned by people with pet allergies. It's worth keeping them here on the planet with us.





The last kitten I adopted came from the SPCA. He died Wednesday-killed by the SPCA! The shelter had given him a combo vaccine, neutered him, wormed him and sent him home with me all in eight hours. The extreme stress to his system caused FIP to develop three months later. I've since discovered that the SPCA KNOWS that half their kittens will die of FIP once they've been sent home because of their barbaric practices, but they don't seem to care. They broke my heart and ended the life of a wonderful and very special kitten.



:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[LostinVA]

87. Yes -- Haruka's mother has a kitten mill kitty

She was used as a kitten factory, then became too weak to produce any more kittens, and was going to be thrown away. Haruka's mother took her -- she was literally half the weight that she is now, and even now she is a dainty little thing. She was very fearful for a long time.

Also, she is supposed to be a Ragdoll. There is no way she's a Ragdoll. MAYBE a Birnan. Maybe.

[Rhiannon12866]

16. K&R. I'm fairly certain that at least two of my dogs came from puppy mills.

My Barney, who I adopted at age 10 or 11, was a stud dog at a "commercial kennel" who was going to be put down because he got too old. Fortunately for both of us, he was rescued by a dedicated woman in rescue who was told that he could never live with a family, become someone's pet. But Barney was not only beautiful, a blond cocker with a wonderful temperament, he was perfect from day one. I had him for eight wonderful years and I still miss him terribly... ;(

I currently have a Brussels Griffon, my little Jack, who was a "pet shop rescue" (one clue) who was placed with me by one of the vet techs at the local Animal Emergency Clinic. He has papers, but, like the three other pups in that rescue, he had a health problem, a hernia, which was repaired when he was neutered. That was the "flaw" in my dog?! :shrug:

He's also originally from Missouri (another clue, according to my vet), poor little guy, which my SO found out on the internets. He's quite a live wire, LOL, and I adopted him at five months, while I've previously adopted senior dogs. He's also quite large for his breed, as I was told that the other pups were, too. My other Brussels Griffon (both are pictured in my sig :loveya:) was only eight pounds (I adopted him at age nine when he became homeless because his elderly owner died... ;( ), while Jack tips the scales at twice that size... ;)

The other dogs in that rescue that I know about, a Westie with skin problems and a Boston Terrier, are equally large. But they have found excellent homes, the Westie with the best vet tech I know, and the terrier with a vet... :-)

Most of my friends know to adopt animals from rescue. It's the only way to go. Some of them may originally have come from puppy mills, which I agree should be shut down. Whenever I hear about someone planning on buying a dog, I tell them that they can find any sort of dog in rescue, that it's the way to go... :-)

Thank you for this very important post...:yourock:

My Jack :loveya:

[LeftyMom]

20. Being from MO is a big clue.

The mills there are a little different, in some cases. While most of the OH and PA mills are family or individual businesses, often run by the Amish (easier than farming, I guess) the ones in MO tend to be corporate operations that supply puppy stores but also supply dogs to labs for experimentation.

[Broken_Hero]

21. We got one in our town, in Goodman, MO

The Hunte Corporation....they seem AWFULLY damn religous too...there signs always say

"Buy a bird, buy a dog, jesus saves!"

[LeftyMom]

24. Just the people I was thinking of.

BTW, they kicked in some dough for Mittens back in the primary. Apparently dog abusers look after each other.

http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/01/07/puppy-mill-supplier-hunte-corporation-owner-backs-mitt-romney/

[Broken_Hero]

29. I've been to there store twice...

once back in 2004, my mother was loooking for a chocolate/brown female pom, but the ladies just ignored me, and I walked out...

I went back in....hmm, summer of 07 to see what their pom prices were, and low end was 800 bucks...which to me, is WAY overpriced...I honestly don't know how they make money...some of my wife's cousins have interesting theories on how they make money, buts thats neither here, nor there.

I think, this store, had a truck load of puppies die a year or so back...during an ice storm or something, they came to deliver, and everything was dead.

Not to many people around here really care for Hunte....

[LeftyMom]

37. I didn't know they operated their own stores.

I know they sell to Petland, which is apparently a big chain of puppy stores. Haven't seen 'em myself, I think the last puppy stores around here (I remember that Arden and Florin malls had them) closed when I was a kid. I had no idea such things persisted anywhere until a couple of years ago.

[Broken_Hero]

38. Yep, they do...I can get a picture if you

don't believe me :) And I haven't been to Arden mall in ages...when they took out the WB store, I was...more than pissed. Where am I suppose to get all my superman junk now?!?!? Ebay!

:D

Most of the breeders I know (in this area) don't sell to Hunte, there seems to be a ton of red tape...which brings me back to...how do they stay in business? Its not like people around here can afford 800 dollar poms, or 200 dollar labs...this area is Chicken Plant/minimum wage hell.

I think there is two pet stores up in Joplin, but they are relatively small, like a Petland, or Petco...or both, both have Pet in there name(I'm horrible with names, especially if they are similiar)...

[LostinVA]

106. Haruka's sister goes to college in PA -- they have puppy stores there

She and her friends go in and play with the poor things.

[Rhiannon12866]

25. Wow. My Jackie sure dodged a bullet, but so did Meneken and Barney.

My vet's wife said "puppy mill" as soon as I mentioned Missouri. :-( They adopt rescue animals too... :-)

Jackie has had some health problems, has gotten some unusual illnesses, things I was told that puppies can get, but I fortunately have an excellent vet and nothing he's ever had has been life threatening *knock on wood*. He sure is a bundle of energy and is extremely friendly, loves everybody, not always the case with Griffs, who are often one-person dogs, as my Meneken was... :shrug: And I'm already used to spending time at the vet, with my older dogs... :-(

And I've heard about the Amish. I was surprised, but the facts speak for themselves. I posted this thread on DU, just a little while ago...;)

Petition to close down a ``puppy mill'' in Lancaster County, Penn.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=106&topic_id=1249&mesg_id=1249

[cboy4]

19. K&R!!

Excellent information.

:bounce:

[cboy4]

22. I just looked through petfinder.com and started crying.

Ughhh.

Within the first two minutes. Never fails.

But I feel so happy there are people working on the animals' behalf.

[LeftyMom]

34. Horrible, isn't it?

It's probably a good thing I don't have a bigger place or a yard of my own, or I'd wind up with even more to take care of. I have my hands full between four cats and one kid, but knowing what the alternative is I don't know that I could say no.

[glinda]

57. I got my second Wheaten Terrier from Petfinder

He was going to be put to death at the Pound and a woman who rescues Poodles rescued him. Great organization and web site. Highly recommended!

[rvablue]

23. Kick. Kick. And....Kick! Awesome post! n/t

[Smith_3]

31. Replace "puppy" with "cow" and no one will care. nt

[LeftyMom]

32. Well, not nearly so many.

I would, but that's why I don't eat 'em. :shrug:

[Smith_3]

35. Thank you.

:hi:

[LeftyMom]

36. Thanks for bringing it up though.

I'm sure people are sick of hearing about it from me. :D

I've been vegan for oh... six and a half years now? and was vegetarian for a few months before that.

[Runcible Spoon]

58. I care.

But this thread is about puppy mills. Some of us have enough compassion for all species of creatures suffering, and not just the cute fluffy ones too!

[Vanje]

85. There are always plenty of homes for cows.......

.....she said, pointing to her belly.

[summer borealis]

41. NEVER buy from the Amish

These disgusting, animal-abusing people are involved in most Pennsylvania puppy mills.
Really!

[MiniMe]

53. It isn't only in Pennsylvania

The Amish have puppy mills in more areas than that, Ohio is one of those areas. But I totally agree with you. I adopted a dog from an Amish puppy mill from the rescue I volunteer for. He was in the mill for 6 months. Once they get to a certain age, the millers dump them because they start to become an expense. I love him to pieces, but he has trust and fear issues around new people, a direct result of lack of socialization. He was kept in a wire cage for the first 6 months of his life in a dark shed.

Go to a breed rescue. Even better, volunteer to foster for a breed rescue, or any rescue. That how I got both my dogs, they were my fosters. Aside from helping the dogs find their forever home, you get a chance to see how a particular dog fits in with your household. Call me crazy, I loved my puppy mill dog as I love most of my fosters, but my first dog wanted to keep him. He is almost as experienced as a foster brother (and he is a good one) as I am as a foster. Some fosters he likes more than others, but you can tell that some just fit. I had another foster that I got in recently that both my boys were absolutely crazy about, and I had to tell them we didn't have any room for any more in our family. She got adopted to a wonderful couple who absolutely love her.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

42. Excellent post!

[mrs_p]

47. great post, and for my 2 cents

i was a vet tech for 7 years before i began vet school and i have seen my fair share of puppy mill dogs. whenever we had a parvo pup come into the clinic it was almost guaranteed that it was from a pet store (thus, a puppy mill). so, you think you may be getting a good deal, but $1000 later, you may not feel that way. if you must have a purebred (and for some people this is important - for showing, hunting, herding, working, etc) it is better to go to a reputable breeder or rescue group.

[the other one]

49. Thanks for this KandR

[shadowknows69]

50. Our Katie was a dog rescued from an illegal puppy mill

She was starved and basically tortured. The monster that was running it also tried to make them hunting dogs so he got the brilliant idea to hang dead cats in front of them as they were chained up and starving. By the age of three Katie had like five litters through her. She was fixed when she was rescued because any more would kill her. Yes the bastard is doing time for this.

on edit can't get the pic to work from where it's posted apparently

[OwnedByFerrets]

52. K and R

[PVnRT]

55. K&R

:kick:

[snooper2]

59. I have no idea if my dog came from a mill

It was at Traders Days ( Large Flea Market )

He's a Bichon Frise and was the last one...already 4 and a half months old

The lady wanted $450 for new Bichon puppies ( she said she would have another liter in a month )- I got him for $200. There is a whole strip of about 40 different stands with people selling all types of dogs/cats- even some flying mice :)

I don't know if she was part of a mill or not...but she had him and three little dogs of a breed I don't know. All I know is that he was getting to the point where people were ignoring him (age)- we gave him a home, and he has been great.

[LostinVA]

107. Oh, I'm pretty sure ALL of those dogs were from mills

[Texasgal]

60. Good thread... and great info!

Thank you for posting. :)

[arcadian]

62. Are mills more prevalent in rural areas?

It would seem that they are as people have less economic choices. Also, I've seen hunting dogs that are treated horribly, often times hunters will simply lose dogs and not try to retreive them. You see them wandering around at trailheads and on backroads. What can be done about that? Great post. :thumbsup:

[flvegan]

65. Yes, but only because land is cheaper and they're easier to hide.

We've had 3 mills busted here in Tampa alone this year, so it's not restricted to middle-of-nowhere, though.

[MiniMe]

69. Fivegan answered your question, but that still doesn't excuse how they treat

those dogs. They have the breeders and the pups, and they basically breed the breeders to death. There is no concern over the healthcare. For farmers of farm animals, they take care of their stock. It's not like you play fetch with a cow, but if the cow isn't healthy, you can't sell the milk, and may have problems selling or keeping the calves. Plus, cows aren't social animals. These people are breeding dogs that will be interacting and living with a family, and if they don't sell them when they are very young, they will have almost no socialization with people.

[Critters2]

132. It's possible my first beagle was one of these. A state trooper found him wandering

along the interstate in an area with quite a few "beaglers". Took him to the Humane Society. He'd never climbed stairs, never been in a building, apparently. So, they assumed he had been a hunting dog. Otoh, he developed lung cancer, which, in dogs, usually comes from secondhand smoke, which implies having been in a house with a smoker. Either way, he was a great dog.

[badgerpup]

66. Chiming in on behavioral issues here...

Friend of mine breeds Shih Tzus...has TWO bitches and a dog for this, and they are well cared for.
One of the bitches came from a puppy mill and as a mother is a total bust...completely ignores her puppies once she's whelped them.

Fortunately, the other bitch is SUPERMOM! :patriot: and takes on and nurses those poor abandoned little guys even when she doesn't have a litter of her own.

Puppy-mill refugee also doesn't really know how to socialize with humans...she'll accept a pat on the head from her owner, but otherwise prefers to be left thehellalone, thank you.

And before you all jump on my friend...she didn't know she was getting a mill puppy...
the bitch was AKC registered and has some very good names (read: Champions- Best of Breed, Best in Show, sort of thing) in her lines.

She put two and two together over time, observing the bitch's behavior towards herself, the two other dogs, and her own puppies.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

113. Why would your friend breed a puppy mill dog ever?

The only shih tzus that should ever even be (arguably) bred are show champions. Not just any bitch that someone hasn't had the good sense to spay.

[Greyhound]

72. K&R, thank you very much for posting this. n/t

[hedgehog]

84. The local municipal animal shelter has some beautiful Labrodors

as well as some friendly mutts. We would have brought one home except our dog Guinness said no.

[LostinVA]

89. To add to LM's OP: many puppy millers are Amish and Mennonite "farmers"

[Vanje]

90. Good post nt

[bullwinkle428]

103. For those interested in specific breeds of cats, there are excellent rescue organizations

out there as well. I just wanted to post so I could share one of my favorites:

http://www.purebredcatrescue.org/purebredcat/home/default.asp

They've got a links page with several other breed-specific rescues...

http://www.purebredcatrescue.org/purebredcat/rescue+infolinks/default.asp

[leftchick]

108. BOYCOTT PETSTORES THAT SELL PUPPIES

what a great site!



I love all of these babies.

[Lyric]

110. Good post, LM.

I have a purebred dog myself, but I was educated enough ahead of time to know what to look for when buying my puppy. Let me use my own experience to illustrate the differences between a responsible breeder and a puppy mill.

--My dog Toby came from a breeder whose female Golden had been bred only twice in her life--once when she was three, and once when she was five--and who will never be bred again. She was (and IS) a companion animal first and foremost. Her name is Lacey, and she is a darling.
--Puppy mill bitches are bred over and over and over until they are worn out, and then they are either killed or tossed aside into rescues and shelters. They are NOT loved companion animals. They are bred early and often, long before their personalities and bodies are mature enough to detect a lot of problems, and they are horribly neglected and unsocialized.

--My breeders were part of a Golden Retriever rescue group--they had five healthy adult dogs on premises, all of whom were INDOORS animals, and three of whom were neutered/spayed rescues. I got to meet my own puppy's Mom AND maternal grandfather (who was neutered at that point,) and was given the name and address of the owner of the stud dog who fathered my puppy in case we wanted to meet him too.
--Puppy mill breeders don't give a damn about keeping the breed healthy. Profit is their primary motivation, and they are more than willing to ignore health problems in order to sell more puppies. Often, their records are falsified, as there are often so many dogs on-premises that even THEY cannot be entirely sure which stud fathered which litter--assuming that they even bother trying to honestly keep track at ALL. Other than with an expensive DNA test, there is no way to truly be sure that a puppy mill's registered "sire" is actually the dog that fathered the litter. In other words--you have no idea what kind of background and genetic history the puppies are inheriting.

--My breeder's puppies were well cared-for, with a room of their own in the basement of a nice house out in the country, and there were no kennels, no cages, and no illness. They were all well-socialized, and had already received some basic training, vaccinations, deworming, and Vet care.
--Puppy mill puppies are hardly cared-for at ALL. They live in cages, often in stinky, dirty, wet, miserable conditions, and receive little to no socialization. Their "vet care" is a laugh--puppy millers who bother to vaccinate and worm *at all* typically just buy large lots of vaccine on the internet and administer the shots at home. Some don't even bother with *that*. If the breed happens to be something like a Rottweiler, where tails are commonly docked, the puppies' tails are crudely cut off either at home by the puppy millers, or by a shady vet who doesn't concern himself with anything more than getting the procedure done and getting paid.

--My breeder interviewed me extensively, did a home visit, spent two hours watching all three of us (including my then-four-year-old) interact with the puppies in *her* home and then in *our* home, and talked to me extensively about the pros and cons of the breed. I then had to wait a week to be "approved," as my breeder contacted my references and sorted through applications to choose homes for her puppies.
--Puppy mill breeders don't give a damn who buys their dogs, or what happens to them afterward. Most owners of puppy mill puppies never even realize where their dog came from, as they probably bought it from a pet store.

--I signed a detailed contract about the puppy's care, and agreed to accept "limited" registration papers so any progeny of our dog cannot be registered with the AKC. If Toby had turned out to be worthy of breeding, then the breeder would have lifted the limits on registration after we presented proof of the OFA hip examinations, because our breeder's group is devoted to getting rid of hip dysplasia within the Golden Retriever breed.
--Puppy millers don't care about the health of the breed. If they sell with limited registration, it isn't for the sake of the breed or of the dog, but only to try and reduce the competition for profits. They have no "noble" ulterior motives. With puppy millers, money comes first, and little else matters at all.

--Most of the time, well-bred puppies from responsible owners are expensive; the costs of the vet care for the pups, prenatal and after-birth care for the Mom, time-consuming in-home puppy care, quality dog supplies, and time spent training are all very high, and the good breeders are NOT making much (if any) profit. My own breeder actually sold at a bit of a loss. I paid a total of $600 for my pet-quality Golden puppy which was far, far less than my breeder had invested into him. The most important return on her investment was to see eight *extremely* healthy Golden pups go to loving, responsible homes, with families who shared her belief in bettering the Golden Retriever breed. She was in it for the sake of the dogs--not for the sake of making money.
--Puppy millers sell their puppies cheap, and there's a good reason for this: with dogs, you get what you pay for. They are fed on dirt-cheap crap food, they receive little to no vet care, they are housed in the cheapest (and often, most inhumane) possible way, and their parents got the same treatment.

Sure, it's less expensive to buy a milled puppy--in the short-term. In the long-term, puppy mill dogs are far more costly, because they often have hidden health problems that don't show up until later. In the four years that we've had Toby, the ONLY vet care he has required are his yearly shots and preventative care. His teeth are perfectly healthy, his joints are in excellent condition, and he has no problem behaviors--like biting, chewing, digging, etc. He's never even had a COLD. How many owners of puppy mill dogs can say the same thing?

Bottom line--mills are not only inhumane in the worst way, but it makes NO financial sense to buy a puppy mill dog. They'll cost you an arm and a leg later on in vet care. It's much wiser (and also more humane) to buy from a responsible breeder who truly cares about the breed.

[Ignis]

114. K&R. "But will my SPCA dog match the drapes?"

Some of these responses by the pets-as-fashion-accessories crowd have been outrageous. :banghead:

Keep fighting the good fight.

[Vanje]

121. "But will my SPCA dog match the drapes?"

Thats a dishonest quote.

Nobody in this discussion wrote that.
No one in the discussion voiced the desire for pets as fashion items.

If you have arguments with comments in this thread, at least argue with actual statements made.

You're not fighting a "good fight". You're not even arguing a single point stated. You're just pulling straw men out of your ass.

Lame!

[Ignis]

148. Dishonesty? Oh, please.

If I purported to be quoting an individual, then it would have been dishonest. You know, as in "lying."

Your sense of outrage is outrageous. No one needs that level of hyperbole.

No one in the discussion voiced the desire for pets as fashion items.

Perhaps it would have been more honest for some people to do so, then.

Earnest arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, I just don't buy the argument that you absolutely must have a particular pure breed of dog. And the manufactured desire for purebred dogs is exactly what makes puppy mills profitable.

You're not fighting a "good fight".

I never claimed to be. I posted in reply to the OP, LeftyMom. She is, by making others aware of the horrors of puppy mills.

Do you disagree that that's a noble goal? :shrug:

[LostinVA]

122. Who said that?

[Dappleganger]

118. Backyard breeders are JUST as much of a problem.

They are all over Craigslist and they will not put a stop to it. It is really quite sickening.

[LostinVA]

124. I will say that most backyard breeders have their heart in the right place

Even if their judgement isn't. They have dogs they love and care for and want to share this wonderful dog with the world, so they breed him or her. The puppies are usually taken care of and good homes are found. No, they shouldn't contribute to the overpopulation of animals, but I cant say most are as bad as puppy mills, because they aren't.

[LeftyMom]

146. Please alert any you catch on CL. Breeders are not supposed to use the site.

They're also not permitted on ebay, should you catch any there.

I agree that backyard breeders are also a problem, I'll get a post together on that in the future. I did the puppy mill post due to some misconceptions that came up on the thread related to Biden's purchase of a puppy mill dog.

[TygrBright]

134. Thank you! WONDERFUL information.

Puppy mills are an abomination. As are kitty mills (yes, there are some, especially for 'popular' breeds like Scottish Folds and orientals.)

I have had several adopted pets and they are wonderful, wonderful companions. There is no reward to compare with earning the utter trust and unconditional love of a critter who's had very little reason to trust anything on two legs.

Thank you again for posting this!

appreciatively,
Bright

[madrchsod]

155. this is better than reading the posts on craigslist pet forums

i thought those posts were bad but this one takes the cake...

puppy mill owners should serve their sentence in one of their cages.