Writer's mid-2nd essay slack-off thread. Topic: 20 year-old sexual "liberation." DISCUSS!

[Writer]

Okay, here goes:

I am absolutely SHOCKED by how often I hear the younger set (especially young women in their 20's) flippantly talk about "hooking up" with guys in completely meaningless fuck-buddy sessions. I know this isn't anything new, but I'm surprised by how open young women are about this. It seems that feminist empowerment has attained a certain sexual liberation that doesn't mean merely being open to exploring oneself fully - but having little qualms with using men in the same manner as men use women, not to mention sleeping their way up the ladder. It's like Sex and the City, Desperate Housewives, and Lipstick Jungle rolled into one for these young women.

Let me give you an example: Earlier this week I was sitting reading a magazine in one of our school's reading areas. Two undergrads entered and started chatting about internships. One of them - a cute blonde - said that she did in internship in California and that it went "very well for her" because - and I'm not making this up - "because I wore short skirts and high heels and people thought I was really cute." Now I'm in the journalism school of a major research university. What I heard FLOORED me. If I had said something like this to someone back in the 90's at U. Texas, a posse of feminists would have KICKED MY ASS!!!

(A part of me wanted to kick the blonde's ass, too, but I digress...)

What kind of low self-respect does that girl have for herself? The sad truth is that she's playing into exactly how the system is set-up. Women still haven't achieved merit-based equality at work with men, and the fuck-for-bucks system, especially with the young women, is still in full swing. Not many women actually do that, of course, and I know that many successful women attain their positions through hard work and brilliance... but this experience, and the situation I've personally been exposed to at the same school, has been eye-opening to me.

So... :wtf: is this??? Has feminism REGRESSED?

DISCUSS!

[flvegan]

1. This might be good.

:popcorn:

[JI7]

2. there is a difference between just hooking up with guys for sex and being hired for a job

they aren't qualified for but get it by having sex with someone or being cute.

[notesdev]

3. Is there any doubt?

What do you think the unemployment rate is among good-looking women? 1%? Tops?

[JI7]

4. probably much more than you think

there is a reason one of the biggest groups to regularly vote Democratic are young women.

most will not become a stripper or prostitute even if it makes a lot of money.

[notesdev]

7. Can't be trying too hard

Guys who will do anything just to be near a pretty face are not all that hard to find.

[JI7]

8. the point is that many women don't want to be hired for sex or being cute

women who are working as a waiter are usually much more attractive than strippers and prositutes.

[notesdev]

20. That's not much different

It may not be explicitly sexual, but plenty of people will tip a good-looking waitress more than a... uh, 'attractiveness-challenged' one.

I know in my industry, staffing account managers are almost exclusively good-looking women. Every last one I have had the pleasure to meet has been smokin' hot.

[Runcible Spoon]

9. I've been told by my friend who manages a big chain store...

he won't hire attractive women because the powers that be informally told him they are bad for worker morale and distracting, not to mention they tend to swap jobs too often. :shrug: Bullshit assumptions, I'm sure, but for every stupid hiring policy there are 1,000 idiot managers to enforce it.

Speaking purely from watching some of my (attractive female) friends, I would say they have a HARDER time being hired in this economy because hiring staff figure they will easily find something else and offer the job to the plainer, older person. Who the fuck knows.

[JI7]

14. attractive women usually get hired for stores aimed at women similar to them

so in that case a man is usually not involved. i'm talking about mall type stores like Guess, BEBE , Express etc. but even in these cases they aren't going to keep the job unless they do a good job with sales and keeping busy with organizing etc. so just being attractive wont be enough in itself.

but a store like payless might go for more "plainer" types as that is aimed at a wider number of people.

i understand what you mean about some places being less likely to hire very attractive people . i think this would be true of places like sears, jc penny etc.

[Runcible Spoon]

5. exactly. There is a difference between embracing casual sex...

and using sex as a means to get ahead. The former is embraced by many modern feminists, the latter is the same old residual patriarchal bullshit as usual.

I have no problem with casual sex, as long as people are safe and emotionally mature enough. Women sleeping/flirting for jobs/promotions is just degrading for the pleasure of a man.

Try to keep the two issues separate, IMO.

[Deja Q]

6. 1970s sitcoms made jokes about wearing tight outfits...

With protagonists fighting the stereotype.

"Regression" is rather an understatement, if you ask me of course, and you really hadn't...

Next up: HypnoToad's essay off-topic thread as to how many people under 21 have visible cold sores...

[Runcible Spoon]

10. pray tell expound on this "regression" if you will

PS cold sores often have fuck all to do with sexual activity.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Um, that's like the farthest thing from new.

[Writer]

12. Of course! I will argue, however, that attitudes about that behavior have regressed.

Seriously - ten years ago, I would have been left for dead on The Drag by a pack of Womynist types.

[Runcible Spoon]

13. huh?

Care to clarify? Which attitudes have regressed? WTF is the Drag and why would Womynist types leave you dead there? :shrug:

[Writer]

15. Okay, here goes...

1. Which attitudes have regressed? - A normative acceptance on the part of women that sleeping for favors is an "okay" thing to do.

2. WTF is the Drag? It's a section of Guadalupe St. across from the UT Austin campus where I would be thrown if I had said the above.

3. Womynist types would not appreciate it if I implied that it's a-okay to sleep with powerful men in order to get special academic or career favors.

[Runcible Spoon]

18. OK.

I still think you need to make a pretty clear distinction between fucking for fun and trading ass in the work environment. I think that's pretty much what most prominent Third Wave feminists would say.

[Writer]

21. I think some media images of women conflate the two, unfortunately.

Shit like this...

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/lady-business/221775/

[Runcible Spoon]

22. oh, I won't argue that.

there's a fucked up media message for just about anything you can think of. Doesn't mean we should begrudge women for enjoying sex for sex's sake ::P:

[Writer]

23. But but... don't you want to be totally sexy and totally liberated... ?

[Runcible Spoon]

24. not if it means sticking foreign objects under my skin tissue and wearing 6 inch stilettos...

See, I AM old fashioned in some ways! :evilgrin:

[BlooInBloo]

17. Had you been that type of person 10 years ago, you wouldn't have even known...

what a "Womynist type" WAS. You would have been too busy boinking guys in frats or something.


EDIT: I'm not convinced attitudes have changed significantly, rather than you just weren't aware of their existence back in the day, due to you operating in a different space.

[Writer]

19. Actually I would have known about them, but I would have thought them to be...

crazy, hairy-legged ultra-liberals. :P

[Boojatta]

16. What is truly shocking is the number of young women in their 20's who are casually

"hooking up" with guys who haven't even won any DUzy awards.

And don't get me started on the number of guys who try to win DUzy awards because they're hoping to casually "hook up" with
young women in their 20's.

...

...

;-)

[margotb822]

25. Dare I say, I was one of those girls...

Growing up, I was different. Smarter, biracial in a pearly white suburb, I had many girl friends, but never broke into the co-ed club of high school.

Went to a military academy, but meeting men was the furthest from my mind. I wanted to study and be involved in politics, travel, not work in a cube, etc. Well, aren't I shocked when men start hitting on me. I won't say that it's because I went to a military school. After the indoctrination summer, I came into my own. I was in a place that worked for me, more than high school. In a way, I could be more myself than I could in high school.

I don't think it's right to say that feminism has regressed, but, like drinking, instead of women developing their own standards and culture, they accept those of the dominant force that they are trying to gain equality with (men). If guys can sleep around, so can girls.

Then again, college is college. People do things when they're 20 that they don't do when they're 25 or 30. Part of me feels like 'so what, she was an intern,' and I suspect that when she hits the real world, there will be female mentors who avail her of their knowledge.

Honestly, with the nature of people and sex, there will never be equality. Its the reason why you often see an ugly guy with a hot girl, but rarely see a hot guy with an ugly girl. I think it has less to do with power than it does with biology.

[Runcible Spoon]

27. "less to do with power than it does with biology"

I take issue with that. Aside from some very basic things like clear skin and a certain amount of symmetry, sexual desirability varies from culture to culture and within cultures throughout time. I think power is the key in a consumerist, patriarchal culture. Unfortunately, medical science has joined forces with capitalism to give us the myth that we can be perfect, if not through genetics then through medical mediation. "Ugly" has become medicalized, we have procedures to "fix" anything, and as such, it is easy to see why so many think in terms of biological determinism. But what we lose sight of is how many billions of dollars have been spent "evolving" the concept of aesthetic perfection. Personally, the sooner we stop embracing fake orange tans, bleach blond hair, melon breast implants, and 3% body fat the better. But don't doubt for a MOMENT that there aren't multiple industries pushing this as the ideal. This is NOTHING near normal and it isn't coded in our DNA to find this sexually attractive!

[margotb822]

28. I don't disagree with you

that we need to move away from an idea of perfection. But, I was scrolling the news today and I saw an article (with pictures) about the miss whatever pageant, and then I saw an ad on TLC for the Miss America pageant, and I started thinking "why don't we have a Mr. America pageant?" And I realized that no one would watch that because it wouldn't be interesting to women. Just as male strippers are not nearly as prevalent. I think that, biologically and sexually, men put more emphasis on appearance than women. My point was not that men use power to put an emphasis on attractive women, but that they do it biologically and their position of power is secondary.

[seabeyond]

26. my niece casually hooked up with three guys, one month and got preg. 9 months

for all to wait to see who the father was. she was gonna marry one, she thought was father. decided another that could be father was a better bet as a hubby. married him. now there is a mess of custody ect.... and after a year of the non biological father being father, along with the father being father, she decided the father was a better bet and went back to him. but that was only an afternoon before she decided the one she married was still the best bet

yep

an interesting world the younger generation is creating for themselves.

[SocratesInSpirit]

29. I'm in my twenties...

and happily married. The whole "casual hookup" thing never appealed to me. Then again, I'm often told I'm an anomaly. :shrug:

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Wearing short skirts so that people think you're 'cute' is not 'sleeping their way up the ladder'

By the way, why did you personally describe her as cute? Was she wearing a short skirt and high heels that appealed to you? Or is she cute whatever she wears?