please Ralph Nader Fans go start your own Ralph Nader Underground board

[2Design]

It is tiring to see the defending of someone who has done nothing for the country like Gore and Dean have since 2000 and 2004 - he is like a jack in the box and pops up once in awhile - his fans are detractors here from the democratic party and its direction and its winning elections - Ralph did not help us win elections and Ralph does not help us win elections

[acmavm]

1. Don't read 'em. And show me your sheriff's badge since you're

apparently the new law and order around these parts.

[2Design]

5. see that star next to my name - image a badge - if I was quick with photoshop I would post one n/t

[acmavm]

18. Sorry, just doesn't cut it. But thanks for playing "Who's the boss

today" on DU.

[ColbertWatcher]

56. No need to be quick, here's a badge ...

[2Design]

68. thanks for the badge - I need to save that for future use n/t

[backscatter712]

50. The mods have that badge you ask for, and they won't allow advocacy of Nader here.

The rules are pretty clear on this - Nader fans are encouraged to GET THEIR OWN FORUMS! That's why we have an Alert link - you see someone advocating for Nader or the Green Party or some other fringies, alert on them and watch them get their pizza.

[acmavm]

58. Talking about someone is not always advocacy. And guess what, even

people that are full of shit can be right upon occasion. And that calls for discussion.

Unless you don't have the mental capacity to handle topics that you disapprove of.

Such touchy people here. So many who think just because their conversational sensibilities have been 'upset', they not only have the right and the power to make everyone toe their conversational lines, it is their duty to do so. What putzes!

[relayerbob]

65. Can't stand Nader, but hate censorship more

Just sayin'

[backscatter712]

74. You can advocate for anyone you want.

You can advocate for Nader if you want, for as much as you want.

You just can't do it here.

Explain to me where this violates your First Amendment rights? This is a private web site. Skinner's forums, Skinner's rules.

[still_one]

2. ralph nader WHO? /nt

[onehandle]

3. Leave Ralph Alone!...

...on an ice flow out to sea.

[DutchLiberal]

76. That must be the most ignorant banner I've ever seen.

Republicans elect Republicans. And Supreme Courts. And Diebold.

[DemzRock]

4. Agreed. To me Nader is a corporate lackey who stands for everything he says he is against...

A traitor to his cause, to the country, and to humanity.

The darkest levels of hell are reserved for traitors, mutineers, and Nader.















But how do I really feel?

[John Q. Citizen]

6. Good, then the Dems will be giving him an important position in party politics. I suggest

Chair of the DNC.

[High Plains]

24. I think you have your rose-tinted glasses on backwards.

Nader is a corporate lackey?!?! Har-de-har-har.

[Canuckistanian]

43. That's true

Not about Nader being a corporate lackey, but he's an intelligent man.

He must realize that he's helping corporate rule by sucking up progressive votes and harming progressive causes.

Luckily, he never received that much support for this election (Greens, etc.)

[OffWithTheirHeads]

7. Oh not this again! Welcome to 2001

We've been there and done that already. ENOUGH!

[2Design]

9. tell that to them who keep posting in threads about him - I am tired of it n/t

[G_j]

71. so?

I am supposed to care about what you are tired of, why?

[2Design]

11. here in this thread his followers are posting and it is getting old very old to

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4537896&mesg_id=4537896

continue to hear them sing praises on this board - enough

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. The article posted is about Obama's appointments, not Nader.

But, what the hell, the 15 minutes of hate directed against Nader always is a big seller on DU.

[2Design]

16. but nader fans are making it about their great nader n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Look again. It's the Nader detractors who hijacked the thread.

[Le Taz Hot]

61. Um, Sparky,

that article was not about Nader. You might try reading it as it was actually very informative.

[riqster]

8. Since he is not a Dem, and in fact is working AGAINST the Dems

...he really does not belong here, by the rules of the board. But hey, that's the Mods' call, innit?

[depakid]

35. He works for progesssive causes

though unfortuntaely as we have seen over the past 15 years, the same can't be said about many Democrats.

[riqster]

45. He took Reep coin in 2000. He worked for Reeps against Dems.

No true progressive would ever work for Reeps. He is, thus, not progressive.

[depakid]

48. Sophistry 101

:crazy:

[riqster]

63. As opposed to Blind Nader Worship 601? NT

[Qibing Zero]

79. You're on to something there

I'm not a big Nader fan or anything, but I'll be damned if nearly every attack on him isn't something utterly misleading.

Just in this thread you have people blaming him for being in conspiracy with Republicans so they can win elections, and being responsible for every other death in the world that's happened since 2000. Talk about ridiculous.

[riqster]

80. My post was specific and based on facts.

Nader DID in fact take money from the Republicans in 2000. Actions speak louder than words.

He can talk progressive all he wants, but if he walks with Reeps, that's what counts.

Sophistic? Nope, it's factual.

Blaming Nader for all manner of things? Nope, I call him out for specific and documented behavior.

[depakid]

81. Your post was ridiculous conspiracy theory

twisting facts beyond reason- something common to all irrational Nader haters.

[riqster]

82. Nope. Fact-based. Check the links

By the way, name-calling does not help you make your case. It just pisses people off.

[depakid]

83. Republicans & right wing interest groups give money to all sorts of candidates- including Democrats

and including Obama!

They do so for various reasons, but in Nader's case or the Constitutional party candidate (unlike a Libertarian candidate) it has nothing to do with positions on the issues.

That's how politics works in the states, and singling out Nader for a few instances of this and painting it with a broad conspiracy brush is ridiculous.

[ColbertWatcher]

57. There's no proof that Nader works for progressive causes. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

10. Who's Ralph Nadar?

I know a Ralph Nader, but not a Nadar. :shrug:

[Javaman]

19. Nadar is like Gaydar only it allows you to detect

overly self important wanna-be politicials that think everyone else is stupid and missinformed.

on edit: no offense meant to the gay community. :)

[scheming daemons]

12. Ralph Nader hasn't been right about anything in three decades

He should've quit after exposing the Pacer.

Ralph is a freaking idiot.

[depakid]

34. Nader was EXACTLY right about the Dems confirming extremists to the federal courts

when they havd the power to stop them.

He was also correct about the consequences of financial and accounting deregulation- and energy deregulation in California and elsewhere, when the vast majority of Democrats refused to listen....

But then, we shouldn't let facts get in the way of things when the subject of Nader comes up.

[Luminous Animal]

55. Really?

Drink cleaner water? Breath cleaner air? Drive safer cars?

Nursing homes, the disabled, telecommunications, insurance, anti-trust...

Pretty much any organization the battles for the individual over the corporation, Nader has a hand in it.

[NashVegas]

14. Use the Alert Button

[OregonBlue]

15. I agree. He is not a Dem. Doesn't belong on this thread. He is a hateful, bitter old hack..

Once upon a time he was quite the guy but he has done nothing of import in many years other than elect George W. Bush. Many here at DU and across the nation will NEVER FORGIVE HIM.

[High Plains]

25. Hateful? Bitter? Don't look in the mirror.

[KG]

20. heh. i love it when nader haters lose their shit

[Lilith Velkor]

22. Me too!

:popcorn:

[Kahuna]

26. A half million dead Iraqis can't be wrong. Thanks for nothing Nader lovers! nt

[superduperfarleft]

32. What about the Dems who voted for the war and to continue its funding?

Do they hold any responsibility, or is it all on the shoulders of some guy that so many here decry as "irrelevant?"

[martymar64]

33. Thank Hillary and Holy Joe while you're at it

They wholeheartedly supported the war in Iraq.

[DutchLiberal]

77. Don't forget to thank Bill, Hillary, Joe and John as well.

[Forkboy]

84. Meh...simplistic empty argument.

How about, "Thanks for nothing, thousands of Florida Dems who voted for Bush!"

Maybe, "Thanks for nothing, Suprmeme Court!"

Blaming Nader for everything bad that's happened since 2000 is the type of argument I'd expect to see from some of the brain dead simpletons around here, but not you. If we're going to use this logic, then lets go back even further. What happened within the Left ranks (Dems/Libs/Progressives) in the 90's that led to Nader's run in the first place? Wouldn't the blame lie there, using your own logic? I'd love to see a single Democrat face this question without dodging it, but in my 7 years on DU it still hasn't happened. Nader's runs didn't happen in a vacuum. So surely you can see how your own logic can be taken further and further back through time, always placing the blame on someone while ignoring the actions of those before them. It's a mug's game, Kahuna.

History doesn't unfold in simple A to B lines. Events and personalities weave in and out of the fabric at random times for any number of reasons. Reducing it to the insanely simplistic thinking that Nader is responsible for all the world's ills since 2000 is almost embarrassing to see among so called intelligent people, and you are definitely better than this.

Even worse though, is you're totally giving a pass to the Supreme Court, Bush and the Repubs, the Democrats that voted for Bush in 2000, and the Dems in office that voted for the war. At what point do you hold those people accountable? Do you really care about those half million dead and how they got that way?

Nader did what we were all told any of us could do in America...run for President. It's not his job to run when it's most beneficial and convenient for a different party, any more than we Dems should worry about what's right for other parties when we decide to run someone. I personally don't even like Nader, but I'll defend his, and anyone else's, right to run when THEY see fit, not when we see fit. And unlike the people who act like Nader is our own Clenis, I'm more interested in WHY he ran, what was happening in the Democratic Party at the time that led to so many being willing to think third party, and what we can do to incorporate those ideas that gel with our own, and strengthen us from the Left, instead of having to suck up to swing voters every election who share our ideals and values only when it's easy and convenient. People who will just as surely vote Repub in a heartbeat the next time around if they think it'll help them.

So, instead of using Nader to either bash the "far left", or the far left using him as an example of what's wrong with the Dems, I'm far more interested in finding the many, many things we have in common, and work from there. I just wish more than one or two souls on DU could think for more than a second when they see Nader's name. This thread, including your own words, tell me we're still more interested in flinging feces than in looking for ways to make the Left a bigger factor in American politics.

[mrfrapp]

85. :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

[Median Democrat]

21. Ralph Nader and Al Queda A Trading Obama Insults - Uncle Tom and House Negro

It is odd how the racist rhetoric from Ralph Nader matches that of Al Queda in calling Obama a house negro.

[AndrewP]

28. I wonder why Naders BFF's never mention that?

I'd have more respect for him if he actually worked towards developing a 3rd party rather than just popping up every 4 years and whining.

Yeah, you know what? Obama will work within the "wall street" structure, since that is where the power lies. Real life hurts sometimes.

[zeos3]

44. Allow me...

I posted this earlier:

Here's the quote:

"To put it very simply, he is our first African American president; or he will be. And we wish him well. But his choice, basically, is whether he's going to be Uncle Sam for the people of this country, or Uncle Tom for the giant corpoations."

Nader is simply stating that it remains to be seen if Obama will be a man of the people or a corporate shill. Maybe not the best choice of words, but not exactly calling out Obama as an Uncle Tom.

[NoPasaran]

47. Right, that's what gets me about Ralph Nader

While his criticism of the corporate party duopoly is not without some validity, he seems to lack an effective strategy. For a while he was involved in building the Green Party, at least to the extent of running for President under their banner. But in 2004 there was a split in the Green Party and he had the support of only a fraction of the Greens, and in 2008 he ran a totally independent candidacy.

His big moment was 2000, when many progressives, dissatisfied with the tepid campaign being run by their own candidate Al Gore, instead voted for Nader as a protest against centrist politics and to give the Greens a chance to gain ballot status. But Nader and the Greens ended up being blamed by many for the Florida stalemate that ended with the installation of Bush. Of course like most great disasters there's plenty of blame to go around. But rightly or wrongly Nader and the Greens took a hit. And that led to the Green's disorganization in 2004.

Certainly the Green strategy of party building by running a political celebrity---whether Ralph Nader or Cynthia McKinney---for President has yet to result in their becoming even a small mass party. But Nader's insistence on running a quixotic race every four years seems to me to make less and less sense every time he does it.

[leftstreet]

23. NO! Nader is a DU icon

[d_b]

39. haha

how they pump up florida dems.

[miyazaki]

27. he looks like Brundlefly.

I know its just a random comment out of nowhere, but everytime I see him,
i'm reminded of that image. :0

[TahitiNut]

29. Is it time for our Two-Minute Hate again already?

:eyes:

[Two Americas]

30. ideas

Why people spend time building up or tearing down personalities is a mystery. People that want to do that should consider starting their own board - "lives of the rich and famous" - and they can gossip about personalities, form cults of personality, act like teen age groupies and knock themselves out. Or maybe they should form an online fantasy politics league. Sports fans are more rational about their heroes and villains than some people are here about politicians.

If Nader, or anyone else, has ideas worth considering, we consider them. It is almost impossible to consider any ideas if we are going to be continually badgered to love or hate different personalities and must frame the entire discussion within those boundaries.

[frylock]

31. better idea: just ignore the threads..

or would you rather shut down all legit discussion concerning the dems and theire many fuck ups? as i suggested earlier, if you're looking for blind devotion, then just start posting at the freerepublic. they hate dissent as much as you apparently do.

[Runcible Spoon]

36. Oh yes time to trot our eternal sacrificial Omega Dog Nader

Rip him up to maintain the cohesion of the group. It feels so much better to slam him then look inside ourselves, I suppose...

[Obamarama]

37. Fuck Nader and fuck the Naderites....

Man, I love saying that. What would I do without these threads?

[G_j]

72. get a life?

[TexasObserver]

38. Yes! A complete ban on threads about Nader!

except those that talk about what an ass he is, of course

[wroberts189]

40. At least thank him for the safety belt you wear when driving. n/t

[Danger Mouse]

41. Let em praise him.

:shrug:

[Liberal_in_LA]

42. I hate the way Nader stole the 2000 election for Bush.

[Better Believe It]

67. And I thought it was Bush who stole the election! How foolish of me.

[the other one]

46. Time for more Group Hate! Damn you Goldstein, I mean Nader!

Let the name Nader be heard never again from the lips of man!

Let the eight years of Nader rule be forgotten, wiped from our minds!

He is not a democrat, and so he should be condemned with all others who are not democrats!

Go back to fucking kindergarten you stupid ass anti nader shit heads. You embarass yourselves by misplacing your hate. Why don't you focus it on the bad guy, or better yet just let it go. Nader never said he was democrat, so stop trying to make him into a bad one. Idiots. The only reason I am kicking this is because it is providing me the outlet to denigrate someone who richly deserves it. YOU!!!

[DutchLiberal]

78. Man, that was good.

[backscatter712]

49. Hit that Alert link on 'em!

The mods have set down the rules very clearly. This is Democratic Underground, not Green Underground, Nader Underground or any sort of fringer underground. If you want to advocate for Nader, the Green Party or other fringe parties or candidates, GET YOUR OWN FORUMS!!!

[Puregonzo1188]

51. This thread is absurd.

For the most part there are few Nader lovers on DU. And they’re not the people you’re referring. I’ve read the thread, as someone as already pointed out to you, but you’ve chosen to ignore, it wasn’t about Nader, it was about Obama’s cabinet picks. The only discussion about Nader was from the foam at the mouth anti-Nader people. I’ve been at DU for awhile to know that this is a pretty regular occurrence. What’s interesting, is they seldom discuss the issue at hand (Obama’s picks is the recent one, a month ago it was derivatives trading) they just spew a bunch of profanity laced ad hominines. “Fuck Nader!” “Nader’s a Republican!” “Nader eats Democratic babies!”

I don’t understand why you’re fixated on him. Honestly. If you don’t support his right to run for president, ok, but does that nullify his views on every topic? I mean I find it mind-boggling that some conservative Democrat who disagrees with the majority of DUers will receive very little outrage in comparison with a man who most DUers would agree with on the issues, but not on tactics.

The real issue here is the authoritarian mindset some DUers hold. Any one who steps out of line and has the audacity to criticize anything Obama does is attacked as a “Nader lover” or a Republican troll or is told to “love it or leave it.” Sound familiar? It is what the freepers have been doing for the last eight years. And it is just as outrageous when DUers do it. No one is above criticism—not even Democrats.

[the other one]

52. This response deserve its own thread

but it will probably be bashed by those who hate to hear positive words in the same sentence as the name Nader.

[ConsAreLiars]

53. Maybe DU should ban anyone who posts a thread with "Nader" in the title, at least for the

day. Hypocrites who want to censor all content they don't like should go start their own "Authoritarian Dittoheads" Board. I'm sure you would be more comfortable there.

(edit typo)

[anonymous171]

54. Why doesn't Nader start his own party? He probably has enough grassroots support.

[undeterred]

59. Or he could start a party just for cranky old men.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

73. LOL!

:)

[MadHound]

60. Who died and made you the administrator?

If you want that sort of control over this board, that sort of lockstep thinking, perhaps you need to look for a new place to post, like FR:shrug: You can have your opinion of Nader, no problem with that, as non-based in reality as it is. But don't try to push your biased and ill thought views off on the rest of us.

Geez, is this what we on the left can expect for the next four years, marginalization and calls to move out of here? Tow the centerist line or leave? This is getting fucking ridiculous.

[Mark E. Smith]

62. Ralph Nader is the Joe Lieberman of the left

[mdmc]

64. i disagree

[lame54]

66. How about starting a Nader hating board as well...

keep it off of here

[Joe Fields]

69. You don't have to be a fan of Ralph Nader to know he's correct.

[CreekDog]

70. if they can post good things about Nader, I can post bad things

knock yourselves out.

[Snotcicles]

86. Thats honorable. nt

[CreekDog]

87. just necessary

:think:

[DutchLiberal]

75. What good is winning elections, when nothing improves?

Winning is not a goal in itself, and Ralph Nader understands it.

I find you intelectually lazy for not discussing a man's argument, but demanding he go away because he has no (D) behind his name.

[mondo joe]

88. Nothing improves? NOTHING?

Okay. :eyes: