Al Franken being hurt by Democrats planning to vote for the "Independence Party" candidate.

[Eric J in MN]

A new NBC News/Mason-Dixon survey finds Sen. Norm Coleman (R-MN) leading challenger Al Franken (D) by six points, 42% to 36%, with 12% favoring Independence Party candidate Dean Barkley.

Analysis: "If Coleman puts daylight between Franken's numbers and his own on Election Day, he may have Barkley to thank. While he has shored up 89% of voters who identify as Republicans, with only 4% defecting to Barkley's camp, only about three out of four Democrats say that they support their party nominee, with 17% of Democratic voters favoring the Independence Party candidate over Franken."

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/10/30/third_party_candidate_hurting_franken.html

ACTION: Please send a link to this video of Hillary Clinton endorsing Al Franken to anyone in Minnesota who might be persuaded by it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SMDqHfNaQw

[onehandle]

1. I was afraid of this. Fuck third party candidates. nt

[Forkboy]

8. Why blame democracy? Blame the Dems voting that way.

[Eric J in MN]

15. There should be a runoff for major statewide offices...

...such as Senator and Governor when no one gets over 50%.

Georgia has such a law. Minnesota doesn't.

[Blue_Tires]

48. +1

[NashVegas]

26. And We Have Franken To Thank for John Kerry in 2004.

In part, at least.

[Leopolds Ghost]

34. Do you have a problem with John Kerry?

Funny how it's OK to trash third party candidates (wrongly) but it's permissible for "loyal democrats"
to trash their candidate after the fact... just not before the election.

[NashVegas]

41. You Mean, Besides He Ran An Awful Campaign?

No.

[hfojvt]

29. because the candidate in this case has far more power than any voter

No Dem would be able to vote that way if the candidate was not running. Ergo, the candidate bears most of the responsibility.

[Forkboy]

31. Why not go all out then and only give the people one candidate to choose from?

Your assumption is that by taking choices away these people will do what you want, so let's go for one choice, and no more. What if there wasn't a third party and they just decided to vote for McCain? Thousands of Dems voted for Bush in Florida in 2000...was that Bush's fault for running, or the voters for voting for him? At what point do you hold people responsible for their own decisions?

You're essentially saying that people you don't like shouldn't run so no one votes for them, and if someone does vote for the guy it's not their fault they cast their vote that way, but the fault of the person running...something we all have the right to do, no?

Your whole position is inherently anti-democratic, so as I say, let's take it to it's logical conclusion and only give people one person to choose from...the one YOU think is right for everyone. :shrug:

[hfojvt]

32. nothing anti-democratic at all

Nor did I absolve the stupid voters. I just said that they don't have as much culpability as the candidate. It's pretty simple. If they don't want Bush to win, then they shouldn't vote for Nader. On the other hand, if Nader doesn't want Bush to win, then he shouldn't run, and he certainly shouldn't run an anti-Gore campaign.

[Forkboy]

33. Oh, it's very anti-democratic.

On the other hand, if Nader doesn't want Bush to win, then he shouldn't run,

What if Nader just wanted Nader to win?

It's quite clear that your anger at Nader has made you think that actual democracy sucks. People have the right to run, whether you like their reasons or not. You assume that anyone who wants to run should only do so when it suits the Democratic candidate. That's not how democracy works.

[hfojvt]

42. it really has nothing to do with the Democratic candidate

if Nader wants Nader to win, he's perfectly free to run in the Democratic primary. If he cannot win the Democratic primary (and we certainly saw in this campaign how the M$M cheats) then he's pretty clearly not gonna win the general election.

He has a right to run, of course, but presumably he wants to accomplish certain things and also to stop certain other things. At least that is what he claims. The question is whether his independent candidacy helps those causes or not. Same with a voter. The question is whether their vote helps to accomplish something or not.

[Selatius]

44. Y'know, people argue as if the notion that run-off voting has not even been invented yet.

Democrats should've been on board with the idea of instituting run-off voting nationwide at least as early as the 1940s. With such a system in place, the predicament would've been avoided, since likely Coleman and Franken would enter the next round and face off in such a situation.

But that is not what the current law is for this election, unfortunately. (Who is to blame for not passing such laws is a whole different thread altogether) If Al Franken is having trouble with his own base, then perhaps he needs to do a better job of reaching out to those Democrats.

[Forkboy]

45. It's not always about winning,

...but about getting your views out there to be discussed. Do you think that Kucinich, Paul, or Nader really thought they would win? I'm sure they wanted to, but can't imagine any of them thought that they really would. Instead, I think they wanted to bring their own voice to the table, to bring up the issues they feel are important, and sometimes that's the point. I'm not trying to defend Nader here, just his right to run as he sees fit, as I would for anyone, regardless of party affiliation.

To me, democracy is bigger than any party within it. If we really stand for democracy we have to support the right of anyone to run, regardless of whether they can win, or should win, or whether we even want them to win. I hate Republicans, but I've signed petitions to put them on the ballot (as I have with Greens, Dems, Libertarians, etc). We need to give people more choices, not less. That's true democracy, and we should embrace it.

I do agree with your second paragraph fully. And I wish more voters (and candidates) thought about what gives them the best chance to further their causes more often. I don't really love a good chunk of the Democratic Party, to be blunt, but I realize they offer me the best chance of seeing the liberal goals I believe in come to pass.

The Bruins are on soon so I may be gone for awhile, but thanks for the discussion. :toast:

[Leopolds Ghost]

35. The problem with this poster is he believes 2-party machine = "democracy"

This is not the way democracy works in any other country. Which is why, as your schoolteacher insisted, this is NOT a democracy and the major parties are proud of that fact since the nineteenth century when small-d democracy was considered a socialistic concept.

[hfojvt]

43. not sure what other countries have to do with it

since we have elections, presumably we are one type of democracy, if not the same as a parliamentarian type.

[New Dawn]

39. Support Instant-Runoff Voting (or proportional representation) if you do not like the current system

[aquart]

2. Democrats are planning to be this stupid?

Jesus H. Christ that's embarrassing.

[lojack]

3. Who's team is he on?

...great.

[Eric J in MN]

7. Dean Barkely was Jesse Ventura's campaign manager.

Ventura is the former professional wrestler who served one term as governor of MN after winning in 1998.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Minnesota Dems are going to vote for the pig Dean Barkley?

Well they did make Jesse Ventura their governor.

Don

[groovedaddy]

5. A bunch of them must have voted for Ventura. They have history

and don't buy into the "you're throwing away your vote" argument.
I hope Al can pull it out.

[wryter2000]

6. I can sympathize with voting 3rd party against a DLC type

I wouldn't do it myself, but I can surely understand. But against Al Franken? :wtf:

[Eric J in MN]

9. Republicans have been attacking Al Franken's character for months,

...with this ad constantly playing on TV these days:

http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2008/10/29/rnsc-al-franken-laughs-at-the-disabled/

[Sebastian Doyle]

12. Al Franken isn't DLC?

He certainly was on his radio show.

[wryter2000]

16. No, he isn't

That's my point. He's not DLC, and that makes it doubly stupid not to vote for him.

[jonnyblitz]

24. when i saw him on a book tour in Cambridge , MA he told us he

WAS a DLC type and then he jokingly DUCKED like somebody might throw something. so HE says he is. :shrug:

this was a few years back when a bunch of Boston DUers all went together to see him.

[wryter2000]

25. Interesting

He always presented himself as a Wellstone Democrat. I doubt he was DLC.

[Eric J in MN]

17. Franken was against the 2005 Bankruptcy Bill.

He's also in favor of gay marriage.

[Sebastian Doyle]

13. Al Franken isn't DLC?

He certainly was on his radio show.

[high density]

19. Let me guess, Iraq War?

There's more to the DLC than that.

[hfojvt]

27. when the 3rd party is a libertarian-type party

it makes sense they would vote 3rd party maybe because the Democrat isn't DLC enough.

Help re-elect Norm Coleman, vote for Barkeley. I hope those voters realize what they are doing and don't mind if Coleman wins.

[cobalt1999]

10. Anyone that didn't learn the "don't vote independent" lesson after 2000, is an idiot anyway.

So, they are helping to deliver a republican into office...stupid.

[Selatius]

20. I think that speaks more to the deficiencies of the US voting system than anything.

A simple provision could've been passed mandating a run-off election in case no one gains a majority of the vote. It's not rocket science, but apparently to entrenched parties and politicians, it is way too difficult to pass in the states or at the federal level.

Lord knows the Dems and Repubs absolutely rejoice at the thought of third party folks playing on a level field with them with the entailing possibility that it makes it easier for voters to dislodge entrenched political parties. :sarcasm:

[cobalt1999]

21. Regardless of how we'd like the system to work...

People need to play the game with the rules as they are setup NOW.

Voting independent is just like voting for the republican, just like in 2000.

[Selatius]

22. I don't disagree, but calling them stupid won't make them vote D either.

That's ultimately what I'm getting at.

[cobalt1999]

30. I was being kind by stopping with "stupid".

My opinion of them is actually much lower.

Luckily, they won't be reading my little post anyway.

[Leopolds Ghost]

36. "What do you mean "we", white man?"

I don't see you or a lot of other DUers pushing for IRV. Do you expect Obama or the filibuster-proof Senate to pass IRV?

Do you intend to ask them to?

Do you look forward to holding them to a promise to re-implement public campaign financing, or do you take it at face value when they say (a la Clinton) that the Internet has "democratized" bribery of public officials and made the need for campaign finance reform obsolete?

Why is it that only the most progressive states have viable third parties? Obviously they are the fools who need to be driven out of the party, right?

[cobalt1999]

46. What state has a viable third party?

Any third party governors out there?
Any third party have a majority in any state legislature?
Any third party even ahead of the minority party in any state legislature?

I guess my definition of a viable third party is different than yours, and, yes, anyone voting for third party candidates in the current system is a fool.

[Johonny]

38. I agree here

It would be great if there was a different system in which voting for candidates in a rank system meant voting for a low percentage third party candidate basically insured the person you least like won... but that's the system. It's not like it's a surprise after 2000.

[LouisianaLiberal]

11. A similar situation in the Louisiana sixth district

http://www.2theadvocate.com/news/33317604.html

Michael Jackson, who lost the democratic runoff, is now funded by Repubs as a spoiler. The interesting thing is, though, that most of the signs that I've seen in neighborhoods that are predominately African American are for Don Cazayoux, not Michael Jackson. But if Jackson pulls enough of the African American vote, the repub will win. And Cheney just held a fundraiser for him.

[FLAprogressive]

37. Cazayoux is a joke anyway....a right-wing reactionary.

I don't know why the DCCC pours money into idiots like him instead of progressive candidates.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

14. Independence party has cost the Dems the last two

governor's elections, and now it looks like they might cost us a Senate seat. Thanks, folks. Thanks a fucking million.

[gypsylud]

18. This is what happens when the DFL nominates with their heads and not with their hearts

Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer would have made a much better candidate than Franken. I’m sorry. Yeah, yeah, Franken had and has name recognition. Who cares. We know it was going to be tough. We knew he had the baggage. Pallmeyer had better character. Look what happened in the last Gubernatorial election. Hatch was way to decisive. Yea, he had the name. He was a great Attorney General. But nobody wants a pitbull in the governors office, and he lost too. Becky Lourey was a better choice, and I believe she would have won the general election.
But what's done is done.
I’m voting for Franken. But lets get back to betting on our bleeding hearts! Wellstone Forever!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. Yes, the Republicanites wouldn't have known how to run against Nelson-Pallmeyer

because he has a squeaky clean background and is so far to the left of the typical Democrat that he would have been expounding ideas that the undecideds have never heard before.

[Mark E. Smith]

28. If they're voting against Franken they are not Democrats ...

... they're assholes.

[Leopolds Ghost]

40. From the Comments to this article: the PREMISE of this article is FLAWED (Mason Dixon?)

# Quagmire 4 hours ago

I've read a few posts that say that Mason Dixon was way off on the 2006 Senatorial races. He's something from today: Mason Dixon has Dole + 4 in NC. Rasmussen has Dole - 6. Rasmussen isn't going to do Hagan any favors, either. In fact Rasmussen has projected Hagan as the winner. I don't know how this fits into the MN free for all, though. I would imagine that the Barkley voters may switch over to Franken if they really, really dont like Coleman.

# politicalwire (Moderator) 4 hours ago (the guy who wrote the article!) injects this editorial remark:

Mason-Dixon has a better track record than many pollsters.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/pollster%2520ratings

# jimbobsween 3 hours ago

Not when it comes to Minnesota..

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/09/16_mccalluml_pollresults/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6369953/

Every time I see a mason dixon poll in my state it is polling more Republican than everyone else is at the time.

(snip)

[Eric J in MN]

47. kick

kick