Gideons in the Classroom? Why is this allowed to happen?

[TornadoTN]

Let me preface: I am a secular humanist and I am a very critical of organized religion and what it does to society. My wife, on the other hand, is a more liberal Christian - perhaps agnostic theist. We both feel that religion is a personal thing and is up to the individual, rather than a group.

A couple weeks ago, my wife who is a teacher in a public middle school, came home from work and told me that she had a very troublesome experience at school involving Bibles and the Gideons. Apparently, each year, the Gideons and local churches decide that they will go into the school and pass out bibles to the kids. My wife was given no notice or forewarning, in fact, she was in the middle of a lesson and she got a knock on her door from one of these people. They told her that they were giving away bibles to the kids and she needed to let them come out to pick there's up. Caught off guard and with the apparent consent of the administration, she was forced to tell the kids that those that wanted to pick up a bible could be allowed to do so but are under no obligation. However - she was forced to dismiss them by rows, which highlighted which kids chose not to pick one up. She spoke up about this and told the administration that even as a Christian, she felt uncomfortable doing this because it singled out kids who were either uncomfortable with this or had other beliefs. So as some of the kids came back to the classes with their bibles the conversation turned from their subject to the bibles themselves and into the more in-depth questions about Christianity. She dismissed the conversation and tried to get them back on track. In her class, at least, there weren't any major problems aside from her being uncomfortable.

In other classes, the same scenario played out as they drug their boxes of bibles from class to class. Apparently, in more than one class, the more rabid Christian teachers used this as an opportunity to single out kids that didn't pick up a bible and "witness" to them instead of using class time as intended.

Today - the administration is trying to play cover-up because more than a few parents called to complain - Christians and non-Christians alike. They are deflecting the blame to the teachers and distancing themselves as if they didn't have anything to do with it in the first place. The fact that they were let into the school in the first place, during class time, and allowed to disrupt the flow of the day is a major sticking point. However, beyond that, I find it very offensive that a religious organization was allowed to go into the school unimpeded and give out their religious materials and put kids on the spot. Some kids may have felt like they had to get one while others who chose not to get one were called out in front of their peers - even when some teachers tried in any way they knew how to keep it from appearing that way, which was a losing battle since these people were in their classroom and in the kids faces. Most troublesome to me in all of this is that a Christian organization is allowed to pass out their material while any other religion or belief system who might want to pass out flyers or other material are shut out. It's an implicit endorsement of one religion over another and is a vehicle for the disbursal of propaganda within a state-funded school.

Why is this allowed to go on in our school systems? This should be troublesome to ANY person who isn't blinded by their religious fervor! Would these same people want copies of the Koran passed out? How about Scientology books? How about I got into that school and pass out a copy of "The God Delusion" and claim it as my religious text?

[billyoc]

1. Excellent! The thin pages are perfect for rolling joints.

I wholeheartedly approve.

[Phred42]

9. LOL - learning bout jesus through osmossis....sort of..

[SmokingJacket]

2. Who invited them?

No group can just force its way into a school. Someone invited them, and that person can probably be sued.

See here:
Court Rules Against Bible Distribution in Public Schools.
http://paganwiccan.about.com/b/2008/04/23/court-rules-against-bible-distribution-in-public-school.htm

I hope someone makes a fuss!! This is illegal.

[TornadoTN]

4. Thank you very much - that's exactly what I was looking for

I'm not sure who invited them into the school, but it appears that the administration may be working on covering that up since the school board appears to be more than a little concerned about it.

The most likely scenario is that these Gideons just came to the school, went into the office, and put the admin on the spot forcing a quick decision. But someone along the line made the decision to allow it.

[hfojvt]

46. it is illegal according to one district court

whether an appeals court or SCOTUS will back them up is another question. A question I have my doubts on. There is precedent for allowing religious activity by private individuals. Interrupting classes is another story, but it is allowable just like it was allowable for me to wander around a grade-school recently. They don't need an invite, just permission. Permission is legal, it can be given (according to SCOTUS) but that does not mean either the Superintendent or the school board (or the local voters) will approve of such permission. Almost everyone will be unhappy about an interruption.

[atommom]

3. That is completely inappropriate. Perhaps it should be brought up to

the school board. I'm sure that you could find a group of other parents who are willing to come forward and make complaints.

[TornadoTN]

6. There already are quite a few parents making complaints

I'm getting the scuttlebutt second hand from my wife who says that the administration is in chaos right now, taking statements from all the teachers as to how it was handled. Word has it that the board was inundated with calls last week right after it happened, so its more than just one parent.

I would like to get involved in the fight myself, but I don't want to risk retaliation against my wife within her job. If it was just me, I would say to hell with it and fight away.

[Az]

5. Its allowed to go on because it is a constant pressure

The people behind such movements are constantly trying to press their beliefs into the children. As has been suggested by Richard Dawkins a child is like an immune deficient patient regarding beliefs. They are quite open to any beliefs offered to them by anyone of authority. If you get to them early enough you can have a life long believer. If however they develop a world view before a religious view gets to them it becomes massively more difficult to indoctrinate them into the belief system. So it is vitally important that a religious belief get to a person before this happens.

Schools are our number one local for indoctrination of ideas. It has all the necessities. Authoritative figures. Instructional format. Collective presentation. Its all there. Evangelical religions love this sort of thing and are drawn to it like a moth to a flame.

The upshot of this is there is a constant pressure from these religions to get their foot in the door of our schools. And across all the communities in this nation from time to time vigilance slips and some communities give in to this pressure. Either because of lack of awareness of it or more often because the leaders in the community are sympathetic or in league with such ideas.

There is a constant battle on the part of these beliefs to place their members of school boards. They do this in a deliberate bid to undermine the Church/State separation. The removal of school prayer and creationism still hurts these people like a fresh wound. It removed some of their most powerful propagation sources. And they want it back.

[TornadoTN]

7. This is downright scary

Are there any organizations that this can be reported to and action taken?

Our school board is probably split 50/50 - half in league with this flat-earthers and the other half scared to death of them.

[Az]

10. ACLU is your friend in this sort of case

Contact your local office and they may be able to help. This sort of thing is right up their alley.

[dgibby]

37. google: separation of church and state

several listings of organizations there.

[jeepnstein]

8. I'd be more concerned...

about whether the kids can actually READ and COMPREHEND what the Bible actually says. It has it's uses in a strictly educational environment as a piece of literature that has been influential in so many ways in Western culture. As a hard-nosed Evangelical, I'd have a problem with anyone preaching in a public school because that would tend to show an institutional bias of one doctrine over another. That's why we have Sunday School and Wednesday night Bible study, because the schools have no business teaching that which they are not qualified to teach.

A public school class on comparative religion, I'm all for that.

[msongs]

11. ummm what school system? what city/town? what state? hmmm nt

[TornadoTN]

13. I'll just say its in Tennessee

Beyond that - I don't want to give that info out until I know with a lot more detail what's going on. As I mentioned before, I'm getting the information about things escalating via a phone call on my wifes planning period, so I didn't get a lot of time to find out all of the details.

[rurallib]

21. Can you give the size of the city or town?

small towns can be little pressure cookers.

[TornadoTN]

22. Suburb of Knoxville, Tennessee

It's a pressure cooker for sure!

[Sheltiemama]

41. I live in Knoxville.

I remember when I was in high school back in the early- mid-1980s, the Gideons were allowed to stand outside and pass out Bibles before school started, but they weren't allowed in the classroom. Does the suburb your wife teaches in start with an "F"?

[TreasonousBastard]

12. I'm not sure why it would be appropriate for ANY...

organization to invade the classroom to pass stuff out, although I've heard military recruiters are often allowed to make their pitches in class. Anybody else allowed in? (There are guests who are involved in the curriculum, but that's different.)

At first I thought this thread would be another complaint about Gideons hanging out by the front door of the school, but access to the classroom is outrageous.

If you don't have a kid in the school you might want to be a little more in the background on this if it could affect your wife's job, but I'd give some more money to the ACLU and possibly seek out some liberal churches to back up the complaints about this.

[TornadoTN]

14. I agree. I'm definately in the background, just seething

If my child was in that classroom, I know what kind of stink that I would be making about it. These guys were in the classroom - not at the front door of the school. The school has an active FCA and even they aren't this brazen about passing out their material, in fact, they have my respect for doing their activities in such a way that doesn't alienate kids or seem to be heavy-handed.


Apparently there are plenty of parents up in arms about this, which is a good thing. I definitely don't want to make her job any harder than it already is.

[libnnc]

15. I remember they would snag us in the lunch line at school

I don't think they were allowed to go from classroom to classroom but they would get us while we stood in line for lunch. This was in the '70s and '80s in Western North Carolina. I have a REAL problem with them. Always have.

[mwb970]

16. It reminds me of the guy in Ohio teaching religion in science class.

(John) Freshwater is a science teacher at Mount Vernon (Ohio) Middle School, currently under suspension pending an October 1, 2008 appeal hearing regarding many issues. The allegations against this man are many, including burning a student with the shape of a cross during a classroom experiment, teaching creationism and impressing his own religious beliefs upon his students.This story became public in April, 2008, with Freshwater holding a rally on the Mount Vernon Public Square to announce to many, including the media, that the administration had ordered him to remove his personal Bible from his desk and that he would not follow that order. In the days that followed, various news outlets reported that Freshwater had burned a student's arm with a "cross" during an experiment in December.

The attorney retained by the student's parents stated that the family had attempted to go through the proper channels in the school system, but had yet not received a satisfactory response. The school board hired an outside investigator to research all of the allegations against Freshwater which concluded that Freshwater, in fact, had violated policy regarding religion in the classroom. The school board voted to terminate Freshwater, who then asked for an open hearing to present his side of the story.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/979682/a_bible_on_a_desk_a_town_divided_john.html

[Bill McBlueState]

17. this is a fine example

of why other countries are kicking our asses in science and technology. I guarantee you European schools don't waste instructional time distributing religious literature.

[Toucano]

18. How does this really harm anyone?

At the end of the day, it is just a book.

It doesn't have the power to indoctrinate on its own.

I have no problem with children receiving a free book. If they started discussing the book, that would be a different matter.

It isn't an implicit endorsement of one religion over another until another group is denied the same courtesy.

[TornadoTN]

19. That was what was happening in some classes

I personally feel that Bible time should be at church or outside of a taxpayers school. But here's what the courts feel about this very matter - and it's even less egregious than what happened in this instance:

http://www.laaclu.org/PDF_documents/Roe_MSJ.pdf

[libnnc]

20. it's a book that many children are shamed into accepting

in front of their friends and teachers.

That's the difference. It isn't like they're pushing "Where the Red Fern Grows". When I was in school, I didn't want a Bible from the Gideons but I was afraid that if I didn't take one, the rest of the kids in my class would think I was a witch or something or the teacher would think that "I wasn't raised right."

Children should not be put in that position. It's cruel.

[Sabriel]

25. It's not "just a book"

It's a tacit endorsement of one particular religion in a setting that's supposed to be open and accepting of ALL viewpoints...including atheism.

Do you think the general public would stand for someone handing out something a little more inflammatory, from a faith that's not so widely accepted?

[demmiblue]

26. The pressure to accept a certain ideology is very real for a minority of school children.

A child who has been told by classmates that they will burn in hell for not believing in a certain ideology is absolutely frightening.

No, it is not just about a book. A 'book' only makes the situation harder.

There is a reason for the separation between church and state.


P.S. No matter how much discussion takes place within the family, some children cannot get over what they have heard from their classmates.

[immoderate]

29. Spreading superstition is harmful.

At the end of the day, rational thinking is the victim. No opposition is allowed. At the least this has the tacit endorsement of the authorities. Next you'll say that fundy thinking does no harm :eyes:

--IMM

[PVnRT]

31. So, you support sacrificing class time in public school to pass out bibles?

You think Muslims would be allowed to pass out Korans? If so, you're beyond naive.

[Toucano]

47. Yes, that's exactly what I think. That's why I said it over and over in my post.

This isn't about "class time".

No one is outraged over the loss of "class time". There are hundreds of ways class time is wasted in every school in the land, and no one gets their panties in a bind over each and every one.

I simply would like people to consider their knee-jerk reactions and not make mountains out of mole hills.

It's not my school district. It's not my child. It's not my battle. Got bigger fish to fry.

And, no, I don't think elementary school children are forever traumatized over the pressure to accept a Gideon Bible or any other book someone might want to give them. If that was the worst thing that happened to any of those children that day, they're damn lucky I think.

Call me when someone (from that community) is actually denied making a gift of the Koran, and then I'll fire up my bra burner. Until then, it is just speculation, naive or not.

To tell the truth, a much better test text would be The Book of Mormon.

[Bill McBlueState]

33. waste of instructional time

There's already far too much time wasted in typical schools without taking a 15-minute break for some outside organization to distribute literature.

[knitter4democracy]

23. I would've been angry about it when I taught--and I was in the Catholic schools.

We never had the Gideons visit, and I'm glad they didn't. That was massively disruptive, and it was illegal, as far as I'm concerned. Students shouldn't be put on the spot like that about their faith, and it disgusts me that some of the teachers used it as a proselytizing moment for themselves.

Disgusting. I hope the principal's put on the hot seat by the parents for awhile.

[Neurotica]

24. Schools usually establish rules about distribution of info from outside groups

This happens at a school system level. Take a look in your school system's policy manual, which is most likely available online along with information on the school board, etc.

If your school system is letting one group go classroom to classroom during the school day to distribute materials (which is an outrageous act in and of itself), then they should not be able discriminate against other groups who wish to do the same.

I would also recommend contacting Americans United for the Separation of Church and State (au.org).

There seem to be multiple legal/Constitutional violations. Public schools cannot proselytize and by allowing an outside group to pass out Bibles during class time, this is an endorsement of one religion over another.

[electron_blue]

27. I remember getting those in high school.

I haven't thought about it in years.

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. I used my first bible as a storage space for my valuables - hollowed out the middle

It worked great. No one in my house would ever open a bible, and they never did. :P

[barbtries]

30. i've gotta believe that's illegal -

where was this?

[PVnRT]

32. Contact the ACLU. This is ridiculous

Find other parents willing to join in and rip these fuckers a new one.

[kath]

34. This is DEFINITELY unconstitutional - I did a fair amount of reading up on the subject a while back.

If the Gideons hand the bibles out on the public sidewalk near the school, they can get away with it. But to do it inside the school is definitely NOT permissible. (there have been quite a few court cases on this issue - try googling something like Gideons bibles school
Contact the ACLU ASAP.

[4_TN_TITANS]

35. I'm guessing East Tennessee?

Suggest to the school administration that Korans, etc. be offered as well.

[dgibby]

36. Isn't it against the law to distribute pornography to children?

There's some pretty graphic stuff in that book!

[Shallah Kali]

38. please consider reportin this to Americans United for Seperation of Church and State

http://www.au.org/

As you said it is unfair - and illegal - to endorse a religion like this so they need to be stopped.

[NeoGreen]

39. If the ACLU doesn't have the resources try the ffrf...

http://www.ffrf.org/

They are usually more then happy to sue the appropriate party over events like the one described.

[kath]

40. As mentioned, other than ACLU, could try Americans United, or FFRF. Also PFAW (People for the

American Way)
To repeat - I am POSITIVE that the situation you describe is unconstitutional.

[TWiley]

42. Jesus gives brownie points to obnoxious believers.

The most obnoxious believer gets a gold star. They call it "evangelism". I think it is a scourge

[TornadoTN]

43. *UPDATE* Thanks for all of your feedback

I've finally found out the entire story, and it's almost completely as I told it. The only change is that the principal actually came to the classroom to announce the Gideons and their giveaway. This makes it more of an implicit endorsement of the Gideons and their religion - not to mention the fact that they went from classroom to classroom.

There are many parents upset about it - which is a refreshing and interesting change from the usual complicity. The AU and the ACLU have both been notified by the parents already, so the teachers are luckily free of being the ones that reported it (which will save them a lot of heartache).

[TrogL]

44. I could probably come up with 30 copies of the Book of Mormon

I wonder if they'd let you hand them out?

[yellowcanine]

45. The Gideons used to come to my elem. school. The principal was a Church of the Brethern pastor and

he told them they could pass out the NTs outside before school began for the day but could not come into the school. He also told us it was ok not to take a NT if we wished. And this was when we still had prayer and Bible reading in school. Of course the Church of the Brethern are descended from Anabaptists of the 16th century and they have a strong belief in the separation of church and state, since many of the Anabaptists were persecuted for not belonging to the state church.