Would you agree with this assessment regarding poverty?

[Writer]

While it's unfortunate that many Americans live below the poverty line, an impoverished American is by and large much better off than the impoverished peoples of any place outside of Western Europe.

Do you agree or disagree, and why?

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Question first: Assuming it's true, what does that imply?

[Writer]

3. What does what imply?

[FiveGoodMen]

11. For instance, are you saying that if the poor here are not as destitute

as in some places, then they aren't really poor and we should dump the social safety net and tell those living in their cars to stop whining?

Because that's where conversations that start with questions like yours are often headed.

[Writer]

13. Uhhhh... no.

Why the hell would I imply that? Or anything else other than the question?

[FiveGoodMen]

14. Dunno. That's why I asked.

Judging by some of the other posts, I'm not the only one wary of the possible implications.

[Writer]

16. LOL - what posts are those?

[leftofcool]

2. In part, I would agree with this

and mostly because here we at least have help in food stamps, some help in section 8 housing, food banks, etc... Other countries do not have this.

[bobbolink]

22. "Other countries do not have this."

Really? Do you know that the US places 37th in health care in the world?

Do you know that there are "Third world countries" with better health care?

[fed_up_mother]

4. Actually, I do agree.

While people living in poverty here lack more nutritious food or access to medical care, 99.999% probably have access to clean water and food, if through no other places than "soup kitchens" and such.

Most of the kids getting free lunches at my kids' school have several sets of clothes. And to state the obvious, they're IN SCHOOL getting an education, while the impoverished folks in most nations aren't. Their kids are carrying water or working in the fields, if they're lucky.

I'm assuming we're talking about the very poor.

[bobbolink]

23. You are looking at a special sector of countries.

There are MANY countries we consider very poor whose citizens are "better off" than the US.

[fed_up_mother]

26. I don't consider being hungry and dying of hunger in any way better off

Maslow's theory of hierarchy and all....

[bobbolink]

31. That's not a reply to what I said.

You're barking up the wrong tree on this one.

[depakid]

5. I guess that depends on the way one looks at "better off"

I've seen several studies that attempt to measure "happiness" across verious nations.

A common theme seems to be that some countries (Mexico was one that caught my attention) people measure significantly higher on happiness indices than Americans- though that's not related to impoverishment, so much as it is cultural differences that encourage higher social capital.

[Warpy]

6. I disagree

The American might have more stuff, but poverty means lack of access to basic things like nutritious food, safe housing and health care no matter which country the person is in, plus lack of access to anything that would improve their economic lot.

The only things most have that are better are reliably potable water and sanitation, and even those are often not available in the worst poverty pockets.

We have colonias here in New Mexico that rival anything that exists in Mexico, derelict trailers on blocks in the desert with no water, no electricity, and no sewers or other waste disposal.

[deutsey]

15. As someone from a poor background, I can say the damage poverty inflicts

on one's sense of self and ability to fulfill potential is common no matter where one lives.

Yes, I had clean drinking water and relatively safe housing growing up, but I'm still wrestling with removing the dank stain poverty left on my consciousness.

[Oregone]

18. Thats quite a point, and if we are to look at this psychologically...

Then does a poor person among the world's richest not feel some weightier burden upon them, that is otherwise not felt in an impoverished country where everyone is poor?

To live in a world where no one understands who and what you are, but only look upon you with disdain and fear is clearly not a healthy environment, and it can transform your concept of humanity and how you view the world. I would assert that even some of those living in destitute conditions across the world never have to feel that whatsoever.

This is spoken as one who couldn't always rely on clean drinking water or safe housing at times. But sometimes, that's the least of your concerns from day to day.

[Warpy]

20. Poverty has been pretty much criminalized

in this country and the poor are expected to internalize blame and shame.

I don't think that happens elsewhere.

[bobbolink]

24. You're right... PLUS, there is much more stigma in the US.

[Warpy]

19. I've fallen into poverty several times

and even had a short period of homelessness, mostly due to health issues.

I look at it a little differently, though. I don't see it as much a stain as my ability to master some very different but essential life skills.

I know how to be poor, in other words. I don't like it but I no longer fear it. Since I can't get health insurance in this country, it's a distinct possibility in my future.

[loyalsister]

33. That brings to mind other issues

You have adapted well and I empathize with that situation.
There are people I know, however who have had significant problems with substance abuse because of mental health issues. People who work in mental health know that a person who has a mental illness will look for an illegal drug for treatment if the leagal one isn't working. Physical pain can lead to some of the same.
In those cases, we would be remiss to not recognize that war has been declared on them.

[deutsey]

36. I think growing up in poverty is different from falling into poverty

Both suck, but when that's how you're defined (and define yourself) from the very formative years of your self awareness is different than experiencing a middle class life (however modest) and then falling on hard times.

That also can have a shattering impact on one's sense of self, I know. But there's the prospect of getting back on your feet if you're lucky and the breaks go your way. When you grow up with your entire reality shaped by poverty, it's difficult to overcome it. I've made a lot of progress, but it hasn't been easy. I'm the first in my family to go to college and to have a "white-collar" job, but I still often feel in a limbo in which I no longer fit in my working poor background but socially I don't feel entirely like I fit/belong in what's left of the middle class in this country.

Still, either way, poverty sucks.

[alcibiades_mystery]

7. I think there are pockets of poverty in the United States that are AS BAD as poverty in other areas

I also wouldn't know what scale such a comparison was even being drawn on.

Is it nutritional? Is it about access? Is there a 67-point quality of life index that one could use. Usually, when right wingers make this claim, they snark something about poor black women being very fat or something (as if obesity isn't precisely an effect of poverty and just as destructive to life potential as the reverse!). But is that the standard.

Wherever you encounter poverty - that is, if you actually work with people in poverty instead of constructing reactionary and ludicrous comparisons - it is grinding, and degrading, and psychologically horrendous. Moreover, on this planet, human poverty is NOT NECESSARY. We have far more resources than we need to assure resources for every man, woman, and child on the planet. To assure that they live without fear of hunger, or lack of shelter, or lack of education, or lack of opportunity and life chances. We have far, far, far more than we need to assure that. This is fact. What we lack is will and the strength for organization to assure it.

That's the real issue. These comparisons are piddling and inconsequential parlor games when put next to the real urgency of the need, and the real possibility of providing for all.

[Greyhound]

8. This is true, but you ignore that we have the capability to eliminate it

and those "other countries" do not. Oh, and South America is making great strides and will soon surpass us, so I guess you'll have to further limit your comparisons.

"We suck less is not an endorsement." - Greyhound

Something the Democratic Party needs to learn, too.

[Vincardog]

9. impoverished American used to be much better off than the impoverished

peoples of any place outside of Western Europe.

Before the "conservatives" shredded the social security net that the liberals and progressives put in place after the Last great depression. The current debate on the bailout is a mask to hide the theft of a trillion dollars and ensure we have to cut more social spending to pay in inflated dollars for Police Military and debt service.

This is a typical pump and dump con. The mega rich create exotic financial instruments and sell them back and forth to establish their value.
Then they sell them to other people and drive the price thru the roof.
They profit on creating the exotic instruments.
They profit as the exotic instruments rise in value.
They sell all of their inventory of the exotic instruments and the market for them tanks.

The crash widens and all assets become worth pennies on the dollar. The mega rich buy up our assets for chump change and send us the bill.

[Oregone]

10. Are impoverished Americans more likely to become depraved, seek out violence?

Just a thought. The question is worthless without defining what "much better off" actually means. According to one's definition of that, the answer varies.

Are imporverished people in third world countries more or less "happy", "fufilled", "enlightened"? Or is this question merely a survival question (hunger, disease, saftey)?

Perhaps we should judge "better off" by how the poverty manifests itself physically in the society. How does it cause these people to react, and thereby, interact with the other parts of the society.

The more you think about it, the more the question sucks.

[EFerrari]

12. Hunger and cold feel pretty much the same all over the world. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

17. But Hunger And Temperature Are Not The Only Factors.

Ever hear or disease? Violence? Environmental factors?

[Forkboy]

28. When you're homeless you still face all of those regularly, regardless of country.

While this may be a fun intellectual wank session for us, OP's like this, while I believe it to be unintentional, just pits two groups against each other that both deserve and need help, something every country is majorly lacking in, our own included. Especially as we have the means, just not the will, to actually fix most of it, whereas the poorer countries can't do much.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. C'mon Forkboy, You Know There Are Differences.

And you're talking to someone who lived in his 1980 z28 camaro through 2 winters. But through the cold and starvation, I never had to worry about malaria, deadly bugs, or savages with big ass swords.

Yes, there are differences. But yes, all the poor, homeless and needy around the globe should be taken care of.

[Forkboy]

34. My point was, when you're in it, those difference matter not.

Yes, there are differences....differences that only matter to us in our wank session here. They sure as hell don't matter to those in the midst of it. That was my point, probably badly made.

You're talking to someone who didn't even a car to sleep in (I would have turned down the Camaro...total crap, dude :P ). Though after having a dog piss on me one night as I slept I may have to think on that a bit more. :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. Hmmm, Can't Say I Had A Dog Piss On Me, But The Camaro Definitely Sucked.

You know that big ass transmission hump in the back seat? Yeah, right under my ribs. Window also didn't roll up all the way and also had practically no heat. But apples to apples, I probably would've preferred it to not having it (though a few times the cops did impound it even while I was yelling "You're stealing my home! You're taking my home away!").

[bobbolink]

21. I misread your OP at first, and thought you were INCLUDING western Europe, rather than counting it

out.

I have some stats somewhere I will try to add, if I can find them in time.

[UK populist]

25. I can name a couple of places that should be exceptions to that rule

Kerala state, India. They get free health care and their literacy rate is 90% (11% of Keralans are under 6) Yes WOW. Oh and they live in a tropical paradise. One final thing about Kerala, It is run by a democratically elected Communist party.
I would then say that Venezuela has a better support and education system for the poor now under Chavez.

[varelse]

27. Here's why I don't see it that way

A link to this article was posted on DU some months ago, and a discussion was held on that thread, which I'm not sure I can find again

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE2D91E39F93AA25757C0A960958260

Some relevant excerpts from the article at that link:

Poor people have long been known to have more medical problems than affluent people of the same age, but a new study suggests that greater inequality in the distribution of income contributes to higher overall mortality rates and deaths from heart disease, cancer and homicide.

Further down in the same article:

"The size of the gap between the wealthy and less well-off, as distinct from the absolute standard of living enjoyed by the poor, appears to be related to mortality," says the article, written by Dr. Bruce P. Kennedy, Dr. Ichiro Kawachi and Dr. Deborah B. Prothrow-Stith.

Why this may be true is not clear. "It is possible that income distribution is a proxy for other social indicators, such as the degree of investment in human capital," the researchers say. "Communities that tolerate large degrees of income inequality may be the same ones which tend to under-invest in social goods such as public education or accessible health care."

In an interview today, Dr. Kennedy said, "We found that mortality was strongly related to inequality in the distribution of income, but not to the median income or per capita income of a state."

The whole article is very interesting, and worth reading/discussing.

[Xithras]

29. It's true, and yet not.

I've been to poor areas of the world. Visited a New Delhi slum a number of years back, have experienced hovel-villages only accessed via dirt tracks in remote Mexico, and did a tour of Ecuador.

On one hand, you're right. The poor in the United States typically still have electricity, clean running water, and basic emergency medical care available. Compare that to people living in mud floor shacks lit by a coal stove, and the poor in the U.S. seem downright wealthy.

But here's where the argument falls apart. A poor person living in a mud floored hut in rural Ecuador has the ability to generate his or her own means for survival. They can be self-supporting if needed simply by falling back on the skills imparted as part of their culture. If their crop fails, they can always grab a bow and head into the forest. If they have no income, they can survive because tribally or communally held lands won't evict them. The poor in the U.S. don't have that ability, and are very dependent as a result. This is largely the downside of living in an urbanized culture, but it's an area where their "poorer" third world compatriots have an advantage. A poor person in New York who has no food can't just go out and hunt food, because there is little wildlife around the city, weapons are heavily regulated, and there are hunting seasons and licensing requirements. It's not something that people can do to survive. Similarly, a poor New Yorker with no income will rapidly find himself homeless, since our property system requires constant income to maintain.

Even welfare and Section 8 offer only a very limited safety net when compared to the cultural support systems that exist in so called "primitive third world" environments. The very structure of our society prevents us from offering that kind of support.

[Naturyl]

30. Yes and no.

Materially, in absolute terms, yes.

Psychologically, not much. Studies show that relative poverty is nearly as psychologically stressful as absolute poverty.